C&R for Dummies?


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nomadboi
November 22, 2005, 07:48 PM
Not dummy guns, dummy buyers... myself, specifically.

Can anybody give the Cliff's Notes version of what C&R is all about? Been scoping out cheap rifles, and lots seem to be surplus imports... but there seems to be a lot of fine print about what you can put new stocks or other parts on, what's C&R or eligible, etc.

Thanks,
Kevin

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Declaration Day
November 22, 2005, 07:50 PM
This should help: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

That is a list of eligible C&R firearms.

I think that C&R eligible rifles must be in their original condition, i.e. not sporterized. I am new at this myself, so I could be wrong on that point.

Gordon Fink
November 22, 2005, 08:21 PM
In short, an FFL-03 permits you to “legally” buy old firearms through interstate commerce without additional background checks, registration fees, or waiting periods.

~G. Fink

Farnham
November 22, 2005, 08:26 PM
A licensed collector is a collector of curios and relics only and is licensed and regulated under the provisions of 27 CFR Part 478. To be considered a curio or relic, a firearm must meet one of the following requirements:

Have been manufactured at least 50 years ago; or

Be certified as a curio or relic of museum interest by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum that exhibits firearms; or

Derive a substantial amount of its monetary value from the fact that it is novel, rare, bizarre, or associated with some historical event, period, or figure.

You can't "engage in the business" of buying and selling curios and relics, which means you can't "profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms."

You can "sporterize" as much as you want, as long as it doesn't violate Federal, State, or local law, like adding a 30 round magazine to your SKS while in California, or chopping barrels less than 16" anywhere.

If you sporterize something so that it can't be returned to the state in which you bought it, then it cannot be shipped to a C&R holder across state lines, but it can be sold and the sale noted in your bound book, near as I've been able to figure.

You must keep a "Bound Book," detailing the acquisition and disposition of any firearms purchased on your C&R license. This bound book can be inspected once a year by the ATF to verify you're keeping correct records, at your home or at their office, your choice.

The ATF website has far more detailed info, but those are some of the basics. I know there are far more experienced C&R holders on this board that can answer in even more detail, and maybe correct anything I didn't get right.

S/F

Farnham

thatguy
November 22, 2005, 10:38 PM
I believe that it's immaterial if the gun has been sporterized. Look at GunBroker and AuctionArms and you will see hundreds of sporterized military rifles for sale in the C&R listings. If it's C&R eligible, which means 50 years old or specifically listed (some less than 50 are listed), a C&R license holder can purchase across state lines directly from the seller.

Like a dealer FFL a log book must be maintained listing guns purchased and sold from your collection. This is a collector's license and not a dealer's license. A C&R doesn't allow you to mail handguns. You still need to ship pistols via common carrier. This sucks.

The ATF can inspect your book but I am told they call and you can ask to take it to their local office rather than let them into your home.

Not all states recognize C&R. CA state law doesn't allow C&R holders to recieve handguns, only long guns. Pistols must still be transferred through a dealer FFL. I think that NJ doesn't recognize C&R at all. They don't recognize the Second Amendment at all so no surprise. Other states may have other laws.

It's cheap, relatively low risk for invasive visits by the agents, and can save a few bucks here and there. I thought about it a long time and got one. I have bought about a dozen guns so far and as yet I have no regrets.

longhorngunman
November 22, 2005, 11:45 PM
If you plan on buying more than one milsurp in a three year period by all means get the license! I've saved enough on shipping and not having to pay $20 FFL fees to have paid for my license with one gun:) . Of course your pocket book will take a hit anyways because now you'll find all sorts of deals and "specials" you just have to have. Are you wanting specific details or just how to go about getting it. When the ATF sends you the license you'll get several pamphlets that go into all the details. As far as reselling rifles that is a no-no, but not set in stone. Let's say I have a Yugo SKS(I do!) I like it and order another one from Aimsurplus. It is in great shape and way more valuable than my first one, I can then sell the first one. Just don't get in the habit of trading up all the time.:D

aaronrkelly
November 23, 2005, 12:27 AM
If you plan on buying more than one milsurp in a three year period by all means get the license!

Hell yeah. I was wanting a CZ52 and my local dealer was selling them for $175. I payed $100 for one with my C&R. Add $15 shipping and I saved $60 on my first purchhase - that payed for the license then some.

Since then I have bought another CZ52 (great pistols) and 5 Mosin Nagant M44s (payed $75 for all 5). Im in the good on the license and theres alot of buying left to do.

Lennyjoe
November 23, 2005, 10:13 AM
www.cruffler.com

yesterdaysyouth
November 23, 2005, 11:03 AM
03 ffl is the DEVIL!!!:evil:

that's all you need to know...

nomadboi
November 23, 2005, 12:17 PM
Thanks!

TexasRifleman
November 23, 2005, 12:31 PM
03 ffl is the DEVIL!!!:evil:

that's all you need to know...

Exactly!

Only a Dummy would get one........ you'll never have spare cash again :D

As for savings, I'll say that even if you never purchase a gun with the thing you will more than save the cost. Brownells, etc include 03FFLs in their "dealer discounts". My first big order with Brownells saved more than the cost of the license.

EOD Guy
November 23, 2005, 12:40 PM
I believe that it's immaterial if the gun has been sporterized. Look at GunBroker and AuctionArms and you will see hundreds of sporterized military rifles for sale in the C&R listings. If it's C&R eligible, which means 50 years old or specifically listed (some less than 50 are listed), a C&R license holder can purchase across state lines directly from the seller.

A military firearm must be in original military configuration in order for BATF to recognize it as a C&R. The BATF ruling did not give any exceptions for 50 year old military firearms. If you sporterize a military firearm, it is no longer C&R, regardless of age.

I've been working with Federal and state regulations for most of my adult life, and one of the first things I learned was that using logic or common sense in trying to interpret them will only get you in trouble.:)

Novus Collectus
November 23, 2005, 12:50 PM
You can't "engage in the business" of buying and selling curios and relics, which means you can't "profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms."

You can "sporterize" as much as you want, as long as it doesn't violate Federal, State, or local law, like adding a 30 round magazine to your SKS while in California, or chopping barrels less than 16" anywhere.

If you sporterize something so that it can't be returned to the state in which you bought it, then it cannot be shipped to a C&R holder across state lines, but it can be sold and the sale noted in your bound book, near as I've been able to figure.

You must keep a "Bound Book," detailing the acquisition and disposition of any firearms purchased on your C&R license. This bound book can be inspected once a year by the ATF to verify you're keeping correct records, at your home or at their office, your choice.

The ATF website has far more detailed info, but those are some of the basics. I know there are far more experienced C&R holders on this board that can answer in even more detail, and maybe correct anything I didn't get right.

S/F

FarnhamThere is one thing to add. Certain rifles cannot be sporterized unless you replace more ten or more parts with American made parts. I am referring to the rifles considered "assault rifles" in the "assault rifle" import ban but are considered C&Rs. Certain SKS are allowed to be imported because of age or the curio aspect of them (Yugo) but they must remain in C&R condition or else become a banned rifle (unless ten or more American parts are in it). As I understand it at least.

It gets even more complicated than that and there are some more details like a new scope does not violate the C&R status, but converting a C&R SKS to accept a detachable magazine is a big no-no (unless there are ten or more American parts in it).

45Broomhandle
November 23, 2005, 01:32 PM
Yesterday I took a copy of my C&R license to the local post office, along with a filled-out form 1508 which I printed off the USPS website, and a pistol packaged for a buyer out in Oklahoma. (That website is http://www.usps.com/forms/_pdf/ps1508.pdf ) The USPS folks were very helpful since this was my first cleaning out of guns I no longer have an interest in or have since upgraded. Those USPS folks even suggested how I could SAVE on shipping costs by using their various FREE packaging materials - which I wasn't aware of. For example: had I used their Flat Rate box instead of the one I used, I would have saved over a dollar. Recently there was an extensive discussion on this subject on another forum. The bottom line was that the BATF does NOT recognize a C&R licensee as a "dealer" whereas the USPS DOES recognize C&R licensees as a "dealer" for application to THEIR requirements of mailing weapons. I'll check back on that other discussion because they were going to attempt to obtain a SIGNED document from BATF clarifying this "pistol mailing" point for C&R licensees. Meanwhile, I'm kicking myself for taking so long to apply for C&R. My only excuse is stupidity. 45Broomhandle - alias Shansei96

http://www.hunt101.com/img/347092.jpg

Cacique500
November 23, 2005, 03:02 PM
the USPS DOES recognize C&R licensees as a "dealer" for application to THEIR requirements of mailing weapons.

Interesting...please keep us informed if/when you get a response from the ATF on this. Beats the hell out of $40 at Fedex...

thatguy
November 23, 2005, 06:02 PM
The word "dealer" does appear in the regs about mailing handguns and I thought, and most agree with this, that dealer would exclude a C&R collector license. But it would be great if the USPS recognized the C&R for mailing pistols.

EOD Guy- Can you cite any documentation stating that altered guns are not C&R because I cannot find any such info from the ATF. I don't see any mention on the web site or in the material they sent me saying that altered guns lose their C&R status. Like I said, if you're right there are many hundreds of people out there violating this rule regularly. I would think an alert from the ATF would be issued if this were the situation.

Farnham
November 23, 2005, 07:29 PM
I just realized my earlier statement of:

If you sporterize something so that it can't be returned to the state in which you bought it, then it cannot be shipped to a C&R holder across state lines, but it can be sold and the sale noted in your bound book, near as I've been able to figure.

Has to be incorrect. Just the fact that it's STILL 50 years old keeps it a C&R, and can still be sent across state lines to another C&R holder. :o

Sorry for any confusion that might have caused.

S/F

Farnham

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