[bcm3087]

Hello everyone-

I have 2 quick Enfield questions for anyone who cares to provide some thoughts:

1. I currently have the opportunity to purchase either a 1940 Lithgow SMLE or (for a slightly lower price) a 1943 Long Branch No. 4 Mk. 1. Both rifles are in similar/excellent condition. There are many people in this forum who have far more Enfield experience than I do, so that said...which would you pick and why? All things equal, is one a better rifle than the other?

2. My only Enfield to date is an Ishapore SMLE that I recently purchased as a shooter/restoration project gun. Lately, I've been wishing I had just spent some more time and money to find a really nice Lithgow or Brit. SMLE, and I wish I could get rid of the Ishapore in the process. Not that the Ishapore is a bad gun, it's just that I don't plan on owning an arsenal of Enfields, so I'd rather have one or two that I can really be proud of. So here's the question: Does anyone know where I can find a nice Lithgow or Brit. SMLE for a decent price?

Thank you in advance for any comments/suggestions.

[Chipperman]

Is the Lithgow a No. 1 Mk III.?
If so, then I would pick the No. 4, because they seem to be harder to find in decent condition. I see more Mk IIIs in excellent condition than No. 4s. It will be easier to find the Mk III later.

Welcome to The High Road!

[bcm3087]

Yes, the Lithgow is a No. 1 Mk. 3. Thank you, and it's a pleasure to be a new member of this forum; lots of good information here.

[mustanger98]

1. I currently have the opportunity to purchase either a 1940 Lithgow SMLE or (for a slightly lower price) a 1943 Long Branch No. 4 Mk. 1. Both rifles are in similar/excellent condition. There are many people in this forum who have far more Enfield experience than I do, so that said...which would you pick and why? All things equal, is one a better rifle than the other?

Okay, here's my two cents... Get both. It seems they should both be good shooters and you can shoot them both and figure out your own preference between the two. The biggest difference will be in the sights, the No.4's rear being either a 300/600m ghost ring battlesight, and the No.1 Mk3's being the earlier tanget V-notch.

2. My only Enfield to date is an Ishapore SMLE that I recently purchased as a shooter/restoration project gun. Lately, I've been wishing I had just spent some more time and money to find a really nice Lithgow or Brit. SMLE, and I wish I could get rid of the Ishapore in the process. Not that the Ishapore is a bad gun, it's just that I don't plan on owning an arsenal of Enfields, so I'd rather have one or two that I can really be proud of. So here's the question: Does anyone know where I can find a nice Lithgow or Brit. SMLE for a decent price?

I advise you to keep and restore the Ishapore while working with the Lithgow and Longbranch rifles. If you get rid of the Ishapore, you'll always wonder what you might have found out you had. I know this because I've restored rifles before. I'm not saying you'll wind up owning an arsenal of Enfields, but there's just something about owning and shooting a gun you restored.

[Sunray]

It's a six of this, half dozen of the other thing. The Aussies decided not to convert to the No. 4 for W.W. II. They thought the No. 1 worked just fine, so they made a few improvements and stuck to it until they went to FAL's.
Our military were still using W.W. I vintage rifles that had either been in storage or used steadily from the time they were issued in W.W. I. By 1939, most were fairly well beat up, so our government(Canadian Arsenals Ltd. Longbranch Plant) tooled up to make No.4's. First for the Brits, then for our own military.
The No. 4 has one advantage in having numbers on the bolt heads. The SMLE doesn't. You'll have to check the headspace on either before you shoot it and finding No. 4 bolt heads, should the headspace be bad, is sometimes easier.
The No. 4 was made about five miles from where I grew up, so I'd say buy the No. 4 first, anyway.
Mind you, if your budget will handle it, but 'em both. Just be sure and check the headspace before you shoot whichever one you buy. Even if the bolt serial number matches the receiver's serial number. Thousands of Lee-Enfields have been assembled out of parts bins with zero QC.

[rbernie]

I have one No1 and four No4's. In my opinion, the No4 is simply a better weapon than the No1.

The No4 features far better sights, it's beefier in the receiver and barrel, and (as has been mentioned) it's easier to adjust the headspace. If the condition between the two is equal, I'd get the No4.

[DMK]

Aside from the No.4 being just nicer rifles to shoot than the No.1 MkIII, the Long Branch Enfields were made in Ontario Canada. Like the U.S. made Savage Enfields, these are made slightly differently than the British rifles. Not really any better or worse, they just have little unique details. This makes them interesting collectables. Some say the Canadian and U.S. made rifles are in fact better made because these factories weren't getting bombed by German HE110s. I just think they are cool because they were made in the "Arsenals of Democracy" of N. America, got shipped to Europe evading Nazi U-boats along the way, to equip the British soldiers defending their homeland (or Canadian troops pitching in to help their brothers) and then somehow made their way back here again.

BTW, Isn't is a No.4 MKI*? The biggest difference being the way the bolt removes. The No.4 MkI has a little button and the MkI* has a notch in the rail.

[mustanger98]

DMK's post show you why you should collect one of all of 'em.:cool: :D

[rbernie]

BTW, Isn't is a No.4 MKI*? Good question - I don't think that LB made any straight No4Mk1's. (At least I've never run into any.)

[Gewehr98]

Buy the No4Mk1 Long Branch.

Then tell me where the NoIMkIII* Lithgow is, so I can buy it.

(I'm goofy for the old SMLE's, but not the later No4 rifles. Yet I like the No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines, too...)

Rugged good looks, from the days of trench warfare:

http://mauser98.com/smle-3.jpg

[kennedy]

go with the longbranch, I have owned several enfeilds, sold them all except the longbranch, it just seems better then the others, maybe the blueing instead of the black paint makes it look higher quality. also shoots great, found matching canadian sling and bayonet for it.

[Huntzman]

Yes, the Mk 1* is the version with the bolt head release slot, instead of the release catch on the Mk 1. Additionally, Mk 1* rifles also have a few minor differences (larger sear pin, magazine catch pin instead of screw,..)

Andrew

[Huntzman]

Good question - I don't think that LB made any straight No4Mk1's. (At least I've never run into any.)

Yes they did, but only for one year in 1941.

[DMK]

Yes they did, but only for one year in 1941.Yea, that's what I was thinking, but I didn't realize they just made them for only one year. Great, now everytime I see a LB I'll be looking to see if it's a '41 with a twitching wallet hand. :)

Huntzman, do you have any idea if Savage made any MkIs or just MkI*s?

[bcm3087]

Thanks to everyone for their responses. I have already decided to try and work out a deal to get both :) If for some reason that doesn't work, I will put my efforts into getting the No. 4 Mk. I*. I will also keep the Ishapore (at least in the meantime) as my weekend restoration project. Thanks again.

[Huntzman]

Huntzman, do you have any idea if Savage made any MkIs or just MkI*s?

Hate to cause any more damage to your wallet than this passion already does, but yes Savage made them as well. :what:

#4 Mk 1

Long Branch (1941)
Savage (1941-1942)

#4 Mk 1*

Long Branch (1942-1945; 1949-1956)
Savage (1941-1944)

Any other questions, please feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone !!!
Andrew

[Gunsnrovers]

I have a wonder ful 1942 Lithgow No.1 MkIII* and a 1944 Long Branch No.4 Mk1*. Both are in great condition. The Lithgows are very well made rifles, but so are the Long Branchs.

Of mine, the Long Branch is definately the better shooter, but I just love the looks of the No.1's.

I'd have to say get both. You really should have both in your collection.

[Spiggy]

I dont wanna hi-jack this thread, but it's a perfectly good question to piggy-back. My freind suggested that I go out and hunt for a Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk4 in .303brit. With that, he left for his vacation... leaving me with a TON of questions.

Now, researching around, I cant find any info on these, the closest Mk4 I found is a .22lr trainer. Can anyone tell me more about the No.1 Mk4?

Also, what are the major differences in handling, build, quality, and preformance between the smelly guns? I keep on hearing "this is better" or "no, this is better" but I dont hear any "it's better because". I'm a tad jumpy on getting one over the holidays, since I just put money on 2 cases of .303

[Gewehr98]

There was no NoIMkIV. After the NoIMkIII*, the Brits fielded a NoIMkV trials rifle (1922) in .303 British that looks like a mix between the NoIMkIII and No4Mk1 rifles. About 20,000 of these NoIMkV trials rifles were made, and I'd sell a body part to find one now in good condition. In 1926, they fielded an improved trials rifle called the NoIMkVI, which eventually became the No4Mk1 rifle of WWII. Note the shift just prior to WWII of Roman numeral designators to Arabic numerals in the naming of the rifles.

This is a 1917-vintage NoIMkIII*:

http://mauser98.com/smle-3.jpg

This is a between-wars NoIMkV Trials Rifle (unfortunately, not mine):

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri3a_files/image001.jpg


Here is a between-wars NoIMkVI Trials Rifle, again, not mine:

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri4a_files/image001.jpg


Note how close the NoIMkVI Trials Rifle above is in appearance to the No4Mk1 rifle that was finally adopted in 1939:

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri9_files/image002.jpg

I'll assume your buddy was pointing you to the No4Mk1 rifle, which is a darned good choice for a rifle in .303 British. :D

[DMK]

My freind suggested that I go out and hunt for a Lee-Enfield No.1 Mk4 in .303brit. Like Gewehr98 said, I'm very sure your friend meant No.4 Mk1

Here's the different Enfield models:
http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri.htm

[DMK]

Any other questions, please feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer. Thanks for the info Andrew! :)

[Spiggy]

thanks for the input there G98!

I have only one question left:
I have a small bet with my freind that I can hit a quarter at 300yrds... is this the gun I'm looking for? (I know the numbers may seem small to you expert shooters, but we're teenagers with nothing better to do... plus, I'm new!)

[mustanger98]

I have a small bet with my freind that I can hit a quarter at 300yrds... is this the gun I'm looking for? (I know the numbers may seem small to you expert shooters, but we're teenagers with nothing better to do... plus, I'm new!)

Ummm... Spiggy, .303's are great guns and all, but for that bet, you better save up some money and get a tricked out heavy barrel .22-250 or something in a heavy bench rifle. That way, the "cone of probability" will be much smaller giving you a much better chance to hit your mark. And the scope you'll need to see the quarter at 300yds will probably cost as much as the rifle.

In my opinion, enjoy the .303's for the good-shootin' tough old rifles they are, but don't over-expect in the accuracy department on anything.

[Chipperman]

"I have a small bet with my freind that I can hit a quarter at 300yrds"

I have two words for you, my friend: AIR STRIKE!!

:D

[Gewehr98]

I have a small bet with my freind that I can hit a quarter at 300yrds... is this the gun I'm looking for? (I know the numbers may seem small to you expert shooters, but we're teenagers with nothing better to do... plus, I'm new!)

Just bring a lot of ammo to the range that day. You'll hit that quarter, eventually. ;)

[Spiggy]

I'm off to find a FFL!

[mustanger98]

Regarding hitting the quarter at 300yds, it occurred to me after I posted that it wasn't clear whether we're talking about a "one shot kill" or hitting it eventually. Like I mentioned, "cone of probability". It means anything within the rifle's mechanical capability to hit and the shooter's ability to hold steady on is liable to get hit sooner or later. We just don't know how many rounds it'll take.

[bcm3087]

So, just to update anyone who cares...
I took some good advice from the folks here on the boards and bought both rifles. I still have the old Ishapore too, just for use as a restoration project/hobby on those rainy days. I'll probably sell the Ishapore the first chance I get, though, as it is the only gun in my collection that just doesn't quite fit. Oh well, I'm happy with the other two, that's for sure. Thanks to all who responded. Here are 2 pics of the newest additions to a crowded gun safe.

[DMK]

Really nice rifles! Best of luck with them.