[Beetle Bailey]

I caught a hunting show called "Under Wild Skies" on ESPN late one night and though I've never hunted before, I decided to watch to see if I could learn anything useful. I'm unfamiliar with the show, not being a regular viewer, but it seems this particular episode was in Africa, where the hosts of the show and the crew go on a guided hunt.

Near the end of the show, one of the hunters spots a leopard in a tree and shoots it with a rifle. In the background you can see the leopard fall out of the tree and it looked as if it was dead when it hit the ground. However, at least from the view of the camera which looked to be from a vantage point very close to where the shooter was standing when he took the shot, it looked as if the shooter didn't have a good backstop ("Know your target and what is beyond it."). From what I could see on my television, it looked as if there was one other, larger tree in the background in an otherwise open field.

Again, I've no experience hunting and I know the television can't tell me everything, but from the POV of the camera he was shooting up into the tree to hit the leopard. The only thing I can think of that would be okay is if he were on a hillside and shooting down into the tree but it didn't look as if that were the case.

My questions are: Was the hunter wrong to shoot upwards into a tree? Has anyone ever been in a situation where they were armed with a rifle and spotted an animal in a tree? What did you do? TIA :)

[Art Eatman]

Putting bait in a tree and then finding the leopard up there near the last possible shooting light has been the least dangerous method devised. You must take into consideration the mostly nocturnal habits of the leopard, the type of vegetation he inhabits, and his incredible speed in an attack.

Probably some of the best writing on the subject is that of Robert Ruark, who made numerous trips to Africa, taking several leopards.

Art

[mr.trooper]

:barf:

Thats some "hunting".

[Ankeny]

Thats some "hunting".
That's certainly "helpful". :barf: :banghead: :barf:

[H&Hhunter]

:barf:

Thats some "hunting".


Mr Trooper,

Have you ever tried to get a leopard to come to a bait in a tree during daylight hours?

Have you ever spent thousands of dollars to sit in a blind for 10 or 14 days in a row only to have Mr. spots never show up?

Have you ever blood trailed a wounded leopard through tall grass knowing that if this leopard isn't dead at the end of that trail the chances are way better than even that somebody is going to get mauled?

Of all the animals in Africa the various cats are by far the lowest kill rates by hunters.

There are basically three ways to hunt a leopard.
1. Bait and wait

2. Hounds

3. In certain areas if you have a pair of bushmen trackers they can cut track and spoor the leopard until they find it for you. I don't know of any non bushmen on the planet who can do this.


How is baiting a leopard any different than waiting at waterhole for a deer?

It seems to me you are making a derogatory comment about something you nothing about.

Maybe I'm wrong?

[Beetle Bailey]

Thanks for the tips, Art :) .

[H&Hhunter]

Thanks for the tips, Art :) .


Beetle,

If you rae really interested in the art of leopard hunting I recomend you go to

www.Craigboddington.com and purchase his very informative DVD titled

"Bodington on leopard"

It is by far the most comprehensive work I've ever seen on the subject.

Greg

[Beetle Bailey]

Hmmmm. . . didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest about baiting technique. Just wanted to know if it was customary to shoot upwards into trees :confused: . Is it safe?

Incidentally, in the aforementioned television program, they were looking for some other animal to hunt when one of the hunters happened to turn around 180 degrees and lucked out, spotting a leopard sitting in a tree. :what:

Afterwards, back at the village, the local villagers treated him like royalty, since according to the guide, it's considered good luck to kill a leopard. They all got a good laugh at the luck of stumbling onto such elusive game while looking for something! :o

[Gohon]

I think you have to take into consideration that if it was a leopard that was shot, they don't live in populated areas. Most likely there were miles and miles of uninhabited land behind the tree. Also since the leopard was apparently hit then most of the bullets energy was expended in the leopard. Squirrels in this country are hunted daily by hunters using 22 rimfires and shooting up into trees. As long as there are a few miles behind the target or a lot of wood to stop the bullet then there is no problem.

[Art Eatman]

mr.trooper, you can always walk and stalk. Just remember that Mr. Leopard weighs probably about what you do, but can carry a hundred pounds in an upward leap of over six to eight feet.

He does have one unpleasant habit when perturbed by a fella: He'll grab on to your upper body and use his hind claws to play can-opener.

The results are left to your imagination, but the great odds are that you'll come off the loser.

Art

[ACP230]

In that case the backstop was what the Brits in Africa used to call "MMBA"
"Miles and miles of bloody Africa."

I don't see anything wrong with that way of hunting leopards or that shot.

[killzone]

I personally can't imagine any batter way to shoot a 31850leopard.
here is a cool picture

[H&Hhunter]

In that case the backstop was what the Brits in Africa used to call "MMBA"
"Miles and miles of bloody Africa."

I don't see anything wrong with that way of hunting leopards or that shot.

That sir sums it up very neatly~!:D

While I've never shot a leopard out of a tree.

I've shot a few Mt lion and a few bears out of a tree. The same principle applies. While you wouldn't try this in down town Berkley or NYC. It really doesn't pose ay problems in the middle of a 1,000,000 acre game concession in Africa or the middle of the rocky mountains. the chances of hitting somebody are so slim as to not be a factor. Hell the chances of seeing somebody else are pretty darn rare!:D

[12-34hom]

If that's your cup of tea - i would not call it hunting.

Sitting for hours, spending thousands of dollars, tracking a wounded cat into the bush. That's part of the risk you inherent while hunting these types of animals, kinda like gambling - risk - reward thing.

There are those where the kill culminates the hunting experiance, sadly they will never really know what hunting is really about.

12-34hom.

[JohnKSa]

If that's your cup of tea - i would not call it hunting.Then you would never shoot a leopard...

[Atticus]

If that's your cup of tea - i would not call it hunting.


I guess we'll have to start calling it coon and squirrel ...chasing?

It's not like that leopard has only that one tree to choose from. I'd imagine it takes some work to locate him in the first place, and then to get him in that particular tree at that particular moment.

As to the question asked....it is always a judgement call, and depends on what type of gun you're using, the angle of the shot, and what's nearby.
A couple of years ago here, we had a kid who was hunting squirrels and putting an errant round or two of .22 into traffic on the interstate. Always know what's on the other side...even a mile away.

[Lupinus]

I call it hunting just fine. Anything concept of making hunting more of a level playing field or not about the kill is as recent as the meat market at your supermarket. Sure getting out into nature is nice and all but who isn't hard pressed to find someone coming out of the whose a lot happier with a nice fat buck then nothing? I havn't done a lot of hunting but I have fished since I was little. There is something nice about sitting there fishing in the peace and quiet. But I know Im a lot happier when I have a nice big fish to show for it then nothing at all.

What isn't hunting about it? How is it any different then applying doe urin or salt sticks then waiting in a tree stand? Or hell juse sitting in a tree stand waitign for a deer to come down a game trail?

There is ambush and stalk hunting, and this is no different then anyone who sits in a tree stand waiting for a deer to show up. I saw a hunting show where they hunted a ountian lion by letting their dogs chase it up a tree. More sporting in your view?

As to is it safe to shoot into a tree? Sure. I mean maybe if you live in downtown Tampa and a leopord escapes from the zoo and is in your neighbors tree it might not be a good idea. But in the middle of nowhere sure. How many people shoot squirrles in trees with a 22? Or even more so how many people shoot into the air with a shotgun for a bird? I'm sure not every pellet from your shotgun hit's the bird and flys off for quite a ways.

[Atticus]

I caught a hunting show called "Under Wild Skies" on ESPN late one night

One last comment. Those hunting shows reveal very little of what is actually involved in the planning of a hunt. They tend to focus on the kill; that can be a little disturbing to many folks...even hunters. I don't care for the way some of those shows replay the kill over and over and hype it up like it's the World Wrestling Federation. I'ts exciting to be there and/or watch it once....but enough's enough.

[Lupinus]

I remember up untill a few years ago I hadn't actually seen a kill on a hunting show. Maybe it was jsut the ones I came across but they always seemed to focus on the shooter rather then the animal as it was shot. Then a few years ago I actualy saw one shot on the tv went holy crap they actually showed it.

Anyone else notice this or was it jsut me and the ones I came across?

[H&Hhunter]

If that's your cup of tea - i would not call it hunting.

There are those where the kill culminates the hunting experiance, sadly they will never really know what hunting is really about.

12-34hom.

Please then,

Tell us underlings what hunting is.

You are making some HUGE assumptions about what this experience is.

1. You don't just shoot some critter hang it in a tree and wait for ole spots to show up.

2. It takes a HUGE amount of preparation and planning knowledge to try and find an area where spots will show up.

3. While I am not a blind hunter and don't fancy sitting in one for very long at all. Every time I have I've seen some pretty neat stuff.

4. The bait doesn't just fall dead because you need it. You have to go hunt it down and shoot it.

I am not saying you need to go drop some $$ and go shoot a leopard. What I am saying is that just because it isn't a whitetail doesn't mean it's not "real" hunting.

As far as your comment as to the kill being the hunting experience. No more so on a leopard than any other animal. Why do you associate this with leopard hunting? What if we change the word leopard to coyote? They are hunted for the same reasons.

How come any time we mention cats or elephants on this sight the holier than thou crowd jumps in and starts degrading this important and necessary form of hunting?

Just some food for thought.

[Don Gwinn]

Hey, guys, let's see if we can stay friends, OK?

Every time I think I want to use a .22 for squirrel, this is what makes me hesitate. I hate to give up tree shots. Shotgun pellets bleed off energy pretty fast.

[Ankeny]

I just hate to see "hunters" bashing and degrading other "hunters". There is enough anti-hunter sentiment without "hunters" adding fuel to the fire through their own ignorance. :cuss:

[H&Hhunter]

[QUOTE=Don Gwinn]Hey, guys, let's see if we can stay friends, OK? QUOTE]

Don I hope we can all be friends and have a bit of a debate at the same time.

Some of these subjects are personally important yet should never be taken personally. IMHO.;) :)

[Art Eatman]

This all remeinds me of a time when a guy got on my case for using a scoped rifle. Just plumb unfair to Bambi.

Okay, sez I, here's the deal: I'll rig a rifle with a camera. I'll rig the camera so that there are crosshairs that will show in the viewfinder and on the film.

For a $1,000 bet, you bring me a photo of a decent buck, on the run, with the crosshairs located for a killshot. On the one and only frame of film in the camera.

He folded his tent and crept quietly into the night...

:), Art

[12-34hom]

H&H ,no need to get your panties in a bunch...;)

Hunting is more than just killing something for some - others it's just about #'s taken or score, bragging rights.. etc. I've met literally hundreds of folks who hunt with this type of attitude. They miss something very intrinsic about what my father taught me - about hunting. Camaraderie - respect for nature - ethics - are some of what I'm referring to.

Shooting a leopard over bait out of a tree [if i ever had the chance to do so] - just would not get it for me. If it does for you or others here - that's your business plain & simple.

It's kind of a personal thing for me also.

Good hunting - Merry Christmas.

12-34hom.

[H&Hhunter]

[QUOTE=12-34hom]H&H ,no need to get your panties in a bunch...;) /QUOTE]

Is that what that odd constricted feeling in the seat of my pants is?!?! :uhoh: ;)

I must admit that leopard hunting from a blind is not really my cup of tea either. I'd very much like to hunt a leopard with the San bushmen in Botswana and watch these magical men track a cat through the Kalahari. I think that would be a tremendous experience.

Not to mention that often these leopard hunts end in a bout of hostility as the cat will get tired of being pushed. It seems that leopards don’t have much of a sense of humor.

I am far to physical of a hunter and have very little patience to hunt from a blind. IT DRIVES ME INSANE to sit around all day.

With that being said I have no problem with our hunters who do wish to bag a leopard over a bait and the blind is by far the most popular method.

I guess that what bothers me is that there is really no difference between this and the thousands upon thousands of deer that are harvested from blinds every year except the species involved. But I've already been there several times so I'll just let it rest.:)

Grabbing panties and tugging....

12-34,
You have a merry Christmas as well.

I hope we can chat before then.

Greg

[Lupinus]

I guess that what bothers me is that there is really no difference between this and the thousands upon thousands of deer that are harvested from blinds every year except the species involved.
other then a chit load spent for airline tickets and guides lol

[H&Hhunter]

Lupinus,

Have you seen what some of these South Texas game farms are charging for a "trophy" whitetail?

It qualifies as a double "chitload" as far as I can tell.

[JShirley]

I would actually pay money (if I had any) to see anyone choose to pour blood over themselves and sit in a tree with a 6mm (AI or no) waiting for ole' Bre'r Cat to come up and say howdy. :)

I reckon that would be hunting. And sporting. And exciting, though much more excitement than I think I know how to handle. So much more interactive. I'd love to see it- on film. Don't know that I'd actually want to be present, but the footage would be incredible.

:)

[Ankeny]

It's kind of a personal thing for me also.


There are a lot of things that are legal in other states that are illegal here and are considered unethical. Hunting over a feeder, and party hunting are good examples. I have no use for in-line muzzle loaders and crossbows, but thousands of folks choose to use those tools. Still, I support those hunters who march to a different drummer because I realize different folks, in different circumstances, do things differently.

[Robinhood]

Mr. Beetle,

I noticed you said you've never hunted before, does this mean you are an anti-hunter? Do you own any kind of a fire arm or weapon for any kind of shooting sport? I'm just curious if you are just trying to stir up the pot enough to maniupulate any information against hunters and shooters a like. And I'm not trying to stir the pot, I just like to know the truth or the intent some non-hunters have when asking questions.

best regards

[JohnBT]

"spending thousands of dollars, tracking a wounded cat into the bush..."

Sounds cruel. Should have killed it with the first shot. What can I say? You have a different idea of what hunting is.

John

[yorec]

I'd love to visit Africa one day and hunt. Even have a good friend from South Africa who promises to guide me after anything that walks the African plains... Anything that is, except Mr. Spots - my friend is deathly afraid of leopards. He's got his reasons, I suppose. Hard man too, wouldn't ever guess he'd be afraid of anything.

But I'd still like to hunt a leopard - I'm just dumb that way.

And I couldn't stand the blind hunt either, H&H. Following those bushmen would be the way for me... Or a pack of hounds. Both have instincts and abilities far beyond my own and just might get me in sight.

[Matt G]

Cats are harder to kill, pound for pound, than just about any specious out there, except perhaps for fireants. :)

I've never shot a big cat, but I've shot a few small ones, and was most impressed by what it takes to kill 'em or even put 'em down. I've talked to a few who have killed the big cats, and they tell me that the toughness translates. The Kevlar Kat is a reality to many.

Returning to the issue of the original post (I don't believe I've ever seen a thread focus so much on the state of Greg's skivvies ;) ) : As a rule, strongly against taking shots on targets without solid backstops. I'm especially against shooting into the sky. I've a pretty decent reason: On 20 December, 1981, a bullet fell from the sky and took the life of my great uncle, Charles Armbruster. Uncle Charlie had heard an odd sound in his engine, and pulled over on the shoulder of a fairly rural (at the time) state highway to check it out under the hood. While looking under the hood, a .22 bullet struck him from a high angle, hitting almost base-on. It managed to penetrate just enough to cut a major (pulmonary?) artery, and after telling his mother-in-law that he had been shot, he sat down and died. It was evening, and the shot had come from a great distance (it was tumbling). The shooter was never found, and we are certain that it was an accident. Almost certainly, the shooter was firing at a varmint in a tree. This was not just "some guy"-- this was my great uncle, who shot bullseye and NRA pistol competition, and who was known to spike the eggnog with a generous hand. You can look up his death record http://vitals.rootsweb.com/tx/death/search.cgi, but unfortunately it has no information about cause of death.

I have many times chastized shooters for shooting up into the air or into a tree without good backstops. But here's the thing: that "semi-rural" state highway was in Tarrant County, TX, home of Fort Worth, TX, which even 24 years ago had a LOT of people in it. This is not the same as the African bush. There's just not nearly the population density out there where the leopard is. And, once the bullet has actually passed through the mighty cat, it's spent a huge amount of energy and is going to slow quickly.

In the right location, I wouldn't have a major problem with this.

[killzone]

There is ambush and stalk hunting, and this is no different then anyone who sits in a tree stand waiting for a deer to show up --originally posted by Lupinus

So,,, yeah, I think that does it.... I'd keep the rest personal.

[Beetle Bailey]

I noticed you said you've never hunted before, does this mean you are an anti-hunter?

No. There are lots of things I've never done that I have nothing against. I have a few friends who hunt and they have recommended that I learn to hunt, so figured I would try to find out a few things about it.

Do you own any kind of a fire arm or weapon for any kind of shooting sport?

I have a modest collection of military rifles, a few sporting rifles, and some handguns.

I'm just curious if you are just trying to stir up the pot enough to maniupulate any information against hunters and shooters a like.

I guess that is as polite a way to ask if I am a troll as can be put into words. As I understand it, one of the four rules of shooting is "Know your target and what is beyond in." Upon watching the television show I described earlier, I thought to myself "Hmmm. . . I wonder if that is how it is done?"

Well, I figured this would be a good time to visit the "Hunting" section of THR, since I don't make my way to this part of the forum very often. Not knowing the ins-and-outs of hunting, I thought it was a reasonable question. I got my answer and was satisfied with it - hadn't been back to the "Hunting" forum until just now.

If you'll re-read my posts in this thread, you'll notice that with regards to using bait, I didn't bring it up, and I also tried to steer the conversation away from that. Furthermore, if there is some disagreement as to what is and is not considered appropriate behavior isn't THR the place to discuss it in a civil manner?

BTW, to all who replied in this thread: Thanks again for your time ;) .

[pacecars]

You must remember that to a lot of "hunters" if you don't hunt their way you are unethical. I would love to go Leopard hunting. Anyone who does not think it chaleenging to try to get a Leopard to show itself in daylight in a certain tree in a certain position is flat wrong. Not to mention that the leopard can very easily turn the tables on you and decide that the fresh meet in the blind is better than what is in the tree?

[Art Eatman]

To me, "ethics" in hunting focusses on whether or not the animal is free-ranging, for one thing. That is, he's not forced to go past a hunter to get to food or water. The hunter might be clever enough to know a likely path, but it's not like a fenced-in road. Or, if he smells/sees a hunter he can escape. Another factor in the kill itself is that it be as clean and quick as the hunter's skill allows.

SFAIK, these ideas fit in with generations of hunters who have written of their hunts and have earned the respect of the hunting fraternity. Russell Annabel, Elmer Keith and Robert Ruark come to mind. I include in this the people of whom they have written, such as Ruark's guide, Harry Selby.

Old Timer's disease just hit me, so I forget the name of the Spanish philosopher who wrote "On Hunting" or "Meditations on Hunting"...Recommended by Jeff Cooper, another well-respected hunter. Anyhow, a fairly well-known comment from the book is, "One does hunt in order to kill. One kills in order to have hunted."

Anyhow, when you get past free-range and clean kill, you've gone beyond "ethics", pretty much. You're getting into the realm of purely personal opinion.

Now, it takes more skill to play sneaky-snake and find Bambi in dense cover than it does to sit in a tree stand and wait for Ol' Bucky to wander past. I don't see any particular difference in ethics, having seen country that hunting from a stand is the only physically possible method for success. Some brush is just too thick to snake around in. BTDT.

I live in cougar country. You're not gonna play sneaky-snake on a cougar. Forget that childish nonsense. You want a cougar, and you're not gonna use dogs, you're gonna sit over bait. You can sometimes find success by adding a wounded rabbit squaller, but that will more likely bring in coyotes, bobcats, hawks and owls. So: If you want a cougar on purpose and not by accident, it's not at all unethical to sit over bait.

The same deal holds on leopards in Africa. You're not gonna sneaky-snake a leopard and shoot him. He's gonna hear you and/or see you and you won't see him until he's becoming intimate with large portions of your anatomy--and he's likely gonna win. You want a leopard? You hunt in the way that generations of hunters have found to be the only practical means to success.

Success, that is, if everything goes righteously. You don't move while in your blind. You don't scratch itches, or pay attention to ant bites. You essentially make of yourself a rock for two or three hours. And you don't whine if the wind changes, or stray people/cattle come by. Or, the leopard just doesn't feel like coming to the bait, or shows up after shooting light has gone away. Lotsa fun, hon'; too bad, how sad, come back tomorrow and try again. You have all night to scratch bug bites.

Funny about this ethics stuff. I've had people get on my case about my use of a scope on my rifle: "But that's not right! That makes it too easy!" They've never hunted, of course, or they'd know better.

But lots of people talk about stuff while having little or no knowledge of the subject...

:), Art

[PCGS65]

I just hate to see "hunters" bashing and degrading other "hunters". There is enough anti-hunter sentiment without "hunters" adding fuel to the fire through their own ignorance. :cuss:
Perhaps the best info in this thread. Thanks Ankeny

[Art Eatman]

I generally try to separate "ethics" from my likes and dislikes in hunting. I far and away prefer to do some form of stalking to sitting and waiting. I don't do all that well at just sitting, other than late evening during that last bit of shooting light.

I had a little trap line back in 1946. Didn't really know what I was doing, but I made a very few dollars from furs. That was in the days when you could pick cotton for 2¢ a pound, and it took a pretty good fella to pick over 100 pounds in a day.

I go out at night and call coyotes. I dunno if that's ethical or not, but that's one of the things I've done since calling got started back in the 1950s. Those Burnham boys were pretty sharp.

I go out and try to figure where Bambi lays up during the day. I have two choices: I can try to kick him out of bed and shoot him on the run, or I can figure where he's gonna go when he gets up and moving and ambush him on the trail. Or I can have all that figured out from scouting the territory before the season and build a blind to give me a bit of elevation above the brush. Seems to me that ambush is ambush...

More fun to kick Bambi out of bed and bust his neck when he's in fifth-gear overdrive, wide open throttle and working hard at being elsewhere. A trifle more challenging, if challenging is your thing. :)

Seems to me that folks have been trying to outsmart critters for sevral thousand generations, which is why bait sometimes gets used. Even people can learn. About all I know is that it seems unfair to hunt Bambi at night with a flashlight, and he oughta be respected enough that I work at "DRT" and no suffering--and eat what I kill. Sort of a courtesy and fair play thing.

I've never hunted on one of these high-dollar south Texas deer ranches. I doubt they have any pastures fenced off much smaller than a thousand acres or so. Brush country. I'm looking out my window at my southeast pasture, where there's a goodly clump of mesquite brush. Maybe fifty acres. I defy anybody to even find Ol' Bucky in there if he doesn't want to be found. It's impossible to work through that stuff quietly, and it's over head high to a horse. You can't crawl, unless you enjoy picking out cactus thorns. Carry pliers; dog-cactus spines got little barbs on the ends.

Which is why people make a living building high stands. With some elevation, you have a chance of seeing something.

But like H&H, I don't much like sittin', so there are some places I don't hunt...

Sorry for the length of the ramble.

:), Art

[Guyon]

You're not gonna play sneaky-snake on a cougar. Great line, Art. :D

[M.E.Eldridge]

Personally, I have no problems with any sort of hunting except those hunts which are conducted in confined, fenced in areas by otherwise able body hunters. I don't mind much if the fenced in area is and acre or two or three, but when its 1/2 or a 1/4 acre, which I have''t seen in ads recently but remeber seeing before, then I don't really think the hunt is fair for the animal. I realise that some physically handicapped persons might only be able to hunt in small,enclosed areas and I'm fine with it if thats the case. But to me a able-bodied young hunter, with modern equipment hunting in cramped, fenced in land just seems wrong. Those are my interpretations of ethics and they very well may seem flawed, but I take them to heart, as I suspect those against baiting do.. I don't see any reason for those hunters with different ethics to argue, that to me seems more unsporting than anything conducted in the field. Well, the ranting is over and I'm off my soapbox. Good day.