Gang Banger Sign Language Interpreter?


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Porter Rockwell
April 3, 2003, 04:50 PM
Hello, last Sunday a group/gang (?) of bangers show up at the state run range and proceed to demonstrate weapons skills with a 4" Colt Python. Five bangers and only one gun, their ejsction technique consisted of banging the butt of the gun on the shooting table since not one of the shooters made use of the ejector (!!??).
OK, I couldn't stand it no more so I approached and tapped the apparant leader of the group as he was unloading (beating the butt on the table) I palmed the gun and demonstrated the ejector operation to all. I gave them a grin since I had no clue what language the group was using and returned to my station cautiously amongst a good bit of laughter from other shooters who were watching.
OK, there was a good deal of gang sign flashing and it occured to me that I don't have a clue if there's a sign that equates to lets kill this person now or later. Hmmmm?
In a short search I find more than several reported gang murders of folks who were using international sign language, did they somehow use an aggresive sign?
Thanks!

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sonny
April 3, 2003, 04:56 PM
How many fingers where they holding up?......was it the one in the middle :D ......My guess is that they probably thought you where a cop.....seriously

CZ-75
April 3, 2003, 04:57 PM
Is the waste of a Python a capital offense?

Should've offered him a TEC-9 and agreed to an even trade for the Python, as the Python ain't got no BLinG-BLinG, yO.

I'd like to start a gun rescue, much like a dog rescue, where people can bring obviously abused firearms, like the Python, to receive a good home. I won't charge, just to show how nice I am.

Anyhow, he probably stole it.

shermacman
April 3, 2003, 04:57 PM
Good Lord man! Please don't misunderstand but I seriously don't think you should teach a gang anything about guns. One of the nicest things about urban toughs is that they can't shoot and can't maintain their tools of the trade. Why do you want to know if they did have a sign for "let's kill this guy now"? You would never see it...

Yohan
April 3, 2003, 05:02 PM
Anyhow, he probably stole it.

CZ-75, don't jump to conclusions- that's an anti mindset. Stereotyping, that is :rolleyes:

blades67
April 3, 2003, 05:04 PM
You have taught them that they can do more than one drive-by shooting without going back to the crib to reload. Way to go, zero.:scrutiny:

jmbg29
April 3, 2003, 05:12 PM
I think that blades67 about summed it up.

Porter Rockwell
April 3, 2003, 05:13 PM
Python abuse a capitol offence eh? Chuckle.
Hey, the Colt was probably stolen and I didn't understand the dialect spoken, it was sorta island spanish sounding with no brit influence.
I'll continue to research gang signs online, I may want something a little more personalized than the common bird or italian street sign, not that I'd willingly incite such a valuable communtity asset as gang bangers.

standingbear
April 3, 2003, 05:23 PM
this is why one should always have a lorcin or piece of crap in the car(doesnt matter as long as its flashy looking).one could even predrill the slide sideways for the sights..maybe even superglue some fake jewels on the thing then spray paint it with gold krylon paint.

Porter Rockwell
April 3, 2003, 05:25 PM
Ahhhh the kiddies are always busy,
I've given you valuable information relating to gang murders of impaired innocents apparantly over miscommunication of language.
I didn't give the miscreants a shooting lesson but did make an opportunity to identify a possible stolen firearm w/o much fuss.
Later Laddies!

TarpleyG
April 3, 2003, 05:38 PM
Meaning you ID'd the gun/serial number and checked it out???

GT

CZ-75
April 3, 2003, 05:48 PM
CZ-75, don't jump to conclusions- that's an anti mindset. Stereotyping, that is

What conclusion would you draw from a bunch of folks dressed in their best "urban" attire, fresh off the boat, with a top of the line handgun they can't figure out how to use properly? I guess that would be racial profiling, but I'd have a hard time believing that all these things don't add up to a situation worth investigating.

jmbg29
April 3, 2003, 06:17 PM
I didn't give the miscreants a shooting lesson but did make an opportunity to identify a possible stolen firearm w/o much fuss.Wow! :rolleyes:

Standing Wolf
April 3, 2003, 08:48 PM
I'm sure they took the Python home and spent at least a couple hours cleaning it. I always do.

Missouri Mule
April 3, 2003, 08:51 PM
Sort of makes a fella wonder if that possibly hot weapon now has his prints all over it.

Too bad you didn't have a "GAT" to trade tit for tat.

Everybody knows a Gang Banger without a "GAT" is just a wannabe gangster!

I wouldn't have helped them with their ignorance. Actually I would have likely backed my way out and hit the road.

Don Gwinn
April 3, 2003, 09:01 PM
I worked with a guy last year who was 21 but looked about 28. Bald head, goatee, looked hispanic and had dice tattooed on one forearm and a pit bull on the other (his pit bull was his best friend.) He drove a lowrider, one of the only ones in the area, and essentially dressed like the corner drug dealer. He talked like a thug, too, and as a kid, he'd been a thief and a vandal. Ironically, it took selling cars to turn him honest.

He was one of my best friends. As long as you weren't trying to make a deal where he stood to make or lose money, you could trust him with your life or your little sister. Try to get the best of him in any negotiation . . . . well, you shouldn't do that because I never saw anyone do it. But I took him shooting. He liked guns, though he tended to gravitate toward stuff he'd seen in movies, and he had a clean enough record to have a FOID card. He took very little in life seriously, but he did learn to be a safe shooter.

Worked with another guy at the same job who was professional, well-dressed, and successful--maybe even a little more successful than the "Thugga" kid. I trusted him, too, and he trusted me, and we never let each other down. He had just about no education but he was a great salesman because he had an infectious personality.

He also had a record; he'd been in prison for aggravated battery and some kind of illegal discharge of a firearm charge. Never did find out exactly what he did, but he never protested his innocence, either. And he was a former gang member. He had joined when he went to prison and risen as high as "Executive Officer" of his floor (the corporate-style structure of a prison gang is astounding.)
My point is not that "Ken" was a bad guy, because he wasn't. The opposite, actually, for as long as I knew him. But he was not exactly what he appeared, and frankly, if you'd given him a reason, it was clear that he could be pretty dangerous.

seeker_two
April 3, 2003, 09:47 PM
Gee, thanks a lot, Porter...

Why don't you show them how to use the Weaver stance while you're at it...:rolleyes:

ayeaye
April 3, 2003, 10:16 PM
Back to the original ?

Don't even try to keep up w/ the 'signs'. They change often.

I work at a 'residential treatment facilty for court adjudicated youth' ie all kinds of kids w/ all kinds of 'problems'

A high % of them are inner city gang bangers.

We are forever trying to discern their 'body language'

It's not just the hands/fingers, but how they walk, sit, slouch, wear their clothes, etc., etc., etc.,

They are ALWAYS one step ahead of you (us).

Sad state/testimony as to the condition of our country.

Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Wilhelm
April 3, 2003, 10:53 PM
Gang signs are mainly Identification or your territory.



Wilhelm

gudel
April 3, 2003, 11:19 PM
that's probably a little too risky, i wouldn't do it, could be inviting some uncessary feud. some people don't like being told, some appreciate it when you corrected them.
it's their gun, as long as they don't point it at me or just down the range, they can do whatever they want to their gun.

Yohan
April 3, 2003, 11:20 PM
I find it amusing that some of you people accuse anti's of stereotyping, yet- some you guys are doing it plain and simple. Most of you that have made those negative comments weren't even at the actual location, so how would you know? Are you saying that people who dress a certain way shouldn't be allowed to goto a gun range? Way to be open minded- :rolleyes: :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

CZ-75
April 4, 2003, 12:08 AM
I find it amusing that some of you people accuse anti's of stereotyping, yet- some you guys are doing it plain and simple. Most of you that have made those negative comments weren't even at the actual location, so how would you know?

Nope, wasn't there, but I sure do find it funny when a bunch of folks have a thousand dollar gun they can't figure out how to use properly and know enough of the language to have been here a day and a half. Usually successful folks in this country have to have some kind of grasp on how to communicate in the lingua franca to make money honestly. A Python isn't a necessity of life by any means, so it would be wise to conclude these folks weren't living hand-to-mouth as farm workers. I then ask myself how they got enough dead presidents together to buy such a righteous gat. I don't like the answer that comes to mind.

Oh, and stereotyping works, unless you work as a screener at the airport. There it is perfectly acceptable to let some guy who looks like Osama's long lost brother go through with a wave of the wand while you pull an old lady aside for a body cavity search. :rolleyes:

Are you saying that people who dress a certain way shouldn't be allowed to goto a gun range? Way to be open minded

They can go wherever they want, so long as it isn't my property. I will watch my six, as well as my three and nine when I see a bunch of yahoos wearing half of Mr. T's recommended daily allowance of gold chains and clothing, usually by Tommy Hilfiger, three sizes too big for them. Particularly when they are armed. "Condition yellow" mean anything to you? I don't just blow them off thinking they're a local NRA-sponsored shooting club from the 'hood. :rolleyes:

SquirrelNuts
April 4, 2003, 12:12 AM
I would have probably asked if they wanted a few pointers first. I would never just go grab the gun.

-SquirrelNuts

Azrael256
April 4, 2003, 12:36 AM
Good friend of mine also appears to be a gang-banger. More tatoos that I know about, baggy pants, boxer shorts pulled out for all the world to see, more gold jewelry than Ft. Knox, and greets me with "Yo yo, wassup?"... Has a MS in electrical engineering, devout Christian, doesn't drink, smoke, or have sex. Crack shot with a 6.5x55, too. Don't ask me why he looks or speaks the way he does, but please let me know if you need somebody to preach the gospel like Billy Graham. You never know...

Yohan
April 4, 2003, 12:42 AM
CZ-75, you have a PM.

faustulus
April 4, 2003, 03:02 AM
Nope, wasn't there, but I sure do find it funny when a bunch of folks have a thousand dollar gun they can't figure out how to use properly and know enough of the language to have been here a day and a half. Usually successful folks in this country have to have some kind of grasp on how to communicate in the lingua franca to make money honestly. A Python isn't a necessity of life by any means, so it would be wise to conclude these folks weren't living hand-to-mouth as farm workers. I then ask myself how they got enough dead presidents together to buy such a righteous gat. I don't like the answer that comes to mind.

What's wrong with construction work? Why don't you like that answer? A lot of the immigrants in our area make a good living working hard -- at jobs most "americans" won't touch. They live within thier means and can afford many things I can't. When you don't have a car payment, or rent or the 1000 other bills americans think are needed to live you can actually put back a good sum of money quickly. I find it humorous that the one lesson no one seems to learn in life is not to judge a book by its cover. It doesn't matter if the teacher is Mom or God, few people take it to heart.

Sisco
April 4, 2003, 04:05 AM
My boy once got a dress code violation at school for having "loose shoes". Couldn't figure that one out so I had a chat with a teacher. Turns out that depending on which shoe has loose laces, which way the ball cap is turned etc is gang language so they just made "loose shoes" a violation.

Also related to the present converstation;
Friend of my daughter has the spiked hair. Some days it's green, some days it's blue. Multiple piercings and tattoos. Kind of kid you give funny looks to and avoid.
Doesn't drink, smoke or do dope. Goes to church on Sunday. Never heard him curse, he wants to be a cop.
Three other friends of hers that generally matched the same description are now in the service; one on a destroyer in the Persian Gulf, another one is probably scoping Bagdad out for rad places to try out a skateboard.

After meeting these young people I realized what some parents must have thought of me when I was 17 and had hair to my shoulders, wore frayed bell bottoms and an torn Army jacket with a peace symbol sewn on the pocket.

Ol' Badger
April 4, 2003, 07:16 AM
Should of told them to look down the barrle to see if its unloaded :D

Don Gwinn
April 4, 2003, 08:50 AM
Sure, stereotyping is a good thing--until it happens to you.

Guess most of our grand talk about freedom, individuality, and fairness is just talk.

I repeat, my friend is an honest man who makes an honest living, has a nice girlfriend, and happens to like tattoos, hydraulics on cars, and loud stereos playing rap music. If stereotyping is "a good thing" then I guess it's acceptable that he gets treated like a criminal.

Heck, let's use an example closer to home. How many of you would tell ArmySon to his face that decent people don't act like he does? He's got dragons tattooed all over his body, he drives a hot Mustang, and he carries multiple full-size 1911's under his expensive clothes. In other words, he matches the stereotype of every Asian gang member established by many years of Hollywood movies.
He's also a college graduate who is currently serving with the Rangers in Korea, having voluntarily re-enlisted right after 9/11 after he'd served his time honorably in places like Yugoslavia. Last time I'd talked to him before that, he'd been mulling over going back to get a degree in physics so he could do some teaching.

Just another thug. :fire:

Joe Demko
April 4, 2003, 10:11 AM
Many of you have apparently learned everything you think you know about gangs from TV and movies. For 15 years I have worked with kids who are in gangs. In Texas, they were in hispanic gangs such as the Royal Aztecas, the Rancheros, the AV's, and others. In Pennsylvania, they have been members of the Crips and Bloods (actually local gangs that were absorbed by these "mega-gangs") and LAW, among others.
Please, let me assure you that everybody who dresses in "street style" isn't a gang member, so you don't need to go rocketing into "condition chartreuse" or whatever color code you prefer every time you see a kid in baggy clothes. Some of the real gang members do dress that way, many do not. In this area, at least, territories are stabilized and the gangs aren't as obsessive over their colors as they typically were 10 years ago.
As for the kids with the Python, maybe they were, maybe they weren't. They could just as easily been "regular" kids who had dad's gun or an older brother's gun. Maybe one of them even did buy the gun for himself "off paper." I've seen more than one member of this board make preening references to owning guns that the gummint doesn't know he has.
Since, judging by this thread, stereotyping is not only okay, it's actually a good and useful thing, I think I'll indulge in a little. You all are the most frightened, ignorant bunch of white guys I've ever run across. Clutch your weapons tight, boys, 'cause the world is full of dusky skinned goblins wearing baggy clothes and gold chains.:barf:

zahc
April 4, 2003, 10:28 AM
LOL@ Golgo

damn gun owners they're all the same aren't they. Buncha wackos:D

David
April 4, 2003, 10:36 AM
Where these the hand signs?

:neener: :neener: :neener:

Oleg Volk
April 4, 2003, 10:52 AM
Last time I ran into "gangbanger" types, they turned out to be civil and decent folks. The time before that, they really were gangbangers. I didn't much care about the hue of their scales...just actions.

CZ-75
April 4, 2003, 11:29 AM
You are judged by the company you keep. In this case, trying to emulate a thug gets you treated like one.

Oleg said that he judges people by their actions. Fine. From the sound of the description, these guys seemed to act the part. I guess we'd have to wait for them to "bust a cap" into Porter to be certain, though. Had they said "gracias" or "thank you," as the case may be, we could assume they just like a "hip-hop" look and were polite and decent. Copping hand gestures and the like sounds more like a thug, though.

I don't doubt that construction work pays well, but illegals who do it really don't earn that much, as opposed to legal immigrants and citizens. And, yes, I'm assuming they're illegal because construction is the kind of job where few questions are asked and a guy can pick up and leave before folks become suspicious. Guys getting exploited working construction for less than minimum don't buy Pythons in most places.

Oh, and even criminals work honest jobs occasionally. Construction by day and gang-banging by night aren't too far out of the realm of possibility.

Golgo,

Nice attempt to make this about race, but I am also suspicious of white guys who look like you describe. Same for white guys who fit the "outlaw biker" image. Folks with spiked, colored hair, and a face that looks like it should be a tackle box they have so many hooks and piercings don't set off my danger meter, however. Neither do any racial groups dressed nicely in "normal" clothing.

-A Scared WASP :rolleyes:

Joe Demko
April 4, 2003, 11:55 AM
Nice attempt to make this about race

Right. When you see white kids at the mall dressed in street fashions, you get exactly the same adrenaline dump black or hispanic kids wearing baggy clothes seem to cause in our esteemed members.

Neither do any racial groups dressed nicely in "normal" clothing.

How convenient for you that the bad guys where you live adhere to a fashion code that makes them easy to identify.
TV. How would we know who to fear without it?

OF
April 4, 2003, 12:18 PM
Please. If you choose of your own free will to dress like a thug, talk like a thug and act like a thug don't be surprised when people treat you like a thug.

Welcome to planet Earth.

It has nothing to do with race for crying out loud. Golgo, you have ZERO evidence that anyone here is commenting on race, yet you ascribe racism to everyone but yourself, although you're the only one who brought it up. Funny that. You just keep on looking down your nose at everyone here like you have since day one. WTMKF, buddy.

- Gabe

pax
April 4, 2003, 12:26 PM
Hey guys,

Some of you need to dial back the rhetoric a bit. Remember the "no personal attacks" rule?

Disagree as vehemently as you wish, but keep the personal attacks and ad hominems to yourself.

pax

Personalize your sympathies; depersonalize your antipathies. -- W. R. Inge

CZ-75
April 4, 2003, 12:29 PM
When you see white kids at the mall dressed in street fashions, you get exactly the same adrenaline dump black or hispanic kids wearing baggy clothes seem to cause in our esteemed members.

Nope, I don't. However, a lot of these white kids, so-called "wiggers," do have gang affiliations, usually as suburban branches of the Crips or Bloods, so it isn't like I blow them off as no threat.

How convenient for you that the bad guys where you live adhere to a fashion code that makes them easy to identify.

Yes, I automatically assume that some guy dressed in "dress casuals" is going to lift my wallet. :rolleyes: Usually, most of the folks who I expect to take it look like they need the money. The rest I expect to do it for the thrill, such as gang-bangers.

Subtlety isn't these folks strong point and gang-members dress the way they do for a reason: identification. They know who is in their set and who isn't. That people not in gangs have done this too is too bad, but not my problem.

jmbg29
April 4, 2003, 12:30 PM
Golgo-13Since, judging by this thread, stereotyping is not only okay, it's actually a good and useful thing, I think I'll indulge in a little. You all are the most frightened, ignorant bunch of white guys I've ever run across.What is it with the liberal obsession with fear? Adrenaline dump? What the hell are you talking about? Fear loser punks? Why would anyone do that?

When I see some kid that is dressed like, acting like, and talking like a punk, I think punk. Nothing else. For 95% of those kids it's just a phase they are going through. Sooner or later, they are going to figure out that if they want to do things like, say, have a real job; that they will have to act, dress and talk like decent human beings. Otherwise, they might wish to get used to asking "Y'all want a McDizzle wit' yo mizzle?" Or whatever the current slang is that the latest crop of societies losers use.

In the meantime, if a bunch of kids want to insist on being, or merely emulating losers, I will honor their wishes, and regard them as losers. To act otherwise is to damn those kids into thinking that they can continue to act in the fashion of a loser, and actually get away with it in real life.

:rolleyes:

BerettaNut92
April 4, 2003, 12:40 PM
He's got dragons tattooed all over his body, he drives a hot Mustang, and he carries multiple full-size 1911's under his expensive clothes. In other words, he matches the stereotype of every Asian gang member established by many years of Hollywood movies.

But does he know martial arts and one-handed Beretta field strip takeaways??

Minus the tattoos I have a friend like that except he's a local cop and is going the way of the HK instead of the 1911.

CZ-75
April 4, 2003, 12:44 PM
I'm going to follow jmbg29 on this one about looking and acting like a "loser."

I have known a few suburban white and asian kids trying to affect a "gang-banger" facade. "Loser" is an apt term for each and every one (One, the Vietnamese kid, eventually joined the Marines, so I'm guessing he's got his life together now.). I wasn't afraid of them, per se, but I was worried about their friends, who were more "hard core," than they were. The rest aren't dangerous, just bums who have several illegitmate children by different women, unskilled jobs, no education, booze and dope with regularity, etc.

I think it is hard not to act like a screw-up when you look like one. Either way, all of us are talking from anecdotal evidence.

Joe Demko
April 4, 2003, 12:44 PM
Oh dear!!! Look at all the defensive posturing and angry feelings because I stereotyped you and you aren't like that at all!

Thus endeth the lesson.

tommytrauma
April 4, 2003, 12:48 PM
Double-tap. Never mind...

This space for rent.

CZ-75
April 4, 2003, 12:54 PM
Oh dear!!! Look at all the defensive posturing and angry feelings because I stereotyped you and you aren't like that at all!

Really, I don't care and am unrepentant.

I just wanted to make sure you didn't bring this down to your level with race-baiting.

If you want to know why I react with more caution to minorities who look like thugs, I'd have to say that I think you and your fellow "educators" and their own "poverty pimps" have filled their heads with reinforcement for their feelings of resentment (justified and imagined) to the point that my skin color makes me a target of opportunity to "redress" those feelings, one white racist oppressor at a time.

I do so love the attempt to talk down to us. I couldn't have guessed you were an "educator" otherwise. :rolleyes:

tommytrauma
April 4, 2003, 12:55 PM
Please. If you choose of your own free will to dress like a thug, talk like a thug and act like a thug don't be surprised when people treat you like a thug.

Welcome to planet Earth.

It has nothing to do with race for crying out loud. Golgo, you have ZERO evidence that anyone here is commenting on race, yet you ascribe racism to everyone but yourself, although you're the only one who brought it up. Funny that. You just keep on looking down your nose at everyone here like you have since day one. WTMKF, buddy.

- Gabe

Word.

::D

I've got a friend who works hard to portray a 'biker' image. He's actually a clean cut, straight up kinda guy. Firefighter / paramedic with LEO credentials due to some of the haz mat enforcement stuff he does. But he bought a harley, and had a denim vest with a fire helmet wearing skull and a "smoke eaters" scroll on the back made to wear over his leather jacket. He works hard to portray a certain image. He is, however, aware that when you work hard to portray a certain image, you don't get to bitch when people take that image at face value. He knows that only an idiot chooses to dress and present himself like that, then whine "don't judge me by how I look".

How you choose to portray yourself has consequences, no matter how un-PC it is to say so.

spacemanspiff
April 4, 2003, 12:56 PM
i think its funny to see someone whos goes on like: "i am sooo not a racist, i have a friend whose cousins neighbors stepson is (insert ethnic origin here)."

so whenever i hear that, i say "yeah, i'm a bigot, not a racist, besides i have lots of friends that are white".

tommytrauma
April 4, 2003, 01:03 PM
i think its funny to see someone whos goes on like: "i am sooo not a racist, i have a friend whose cousins neighbors stepson is (insert ethnic origin here)."

so whenever i hear that, i say "yeah, i'm a bigot, not a racist, besides i have lots of friends that are white".
In reading these posts, it appears to me that the only people bring up race are the ones accusing others of racism. Have you checked your own assumptions lately? Seems to me that when someone is described as a banger, you immediatly assume they're black, and are being treated unfairly because of it.

jmbg29
April 4, 2003, 01:11 PM
besides i have lots of friends that are whiteYou are killin' me spiff! LMAO :D

spacemanspiff
April 4, 2003, 01:20 PM
actually tommy, it depends on location and environment. some might assume a 'banger' is latino, some might say its 'asian'.

where i live, our 'bangers' are usually filipinos, some samoans, a handful of latinos, some native alaskans, but very few are black.
our 'bangers' are more interested in being king of the 'hood', not dealing drugs or other illegal activities. oddly enough the biggest coke distributors up here are with the hells angels. marijuana is all home grown by local distributors mostly.

Navy joe
April 4, 2003, 02:23 PM
Ok, first off, there's plenty off stereo-typing going on here, both of "gangbangers" and "typical gun owners". Not everyone who thinks it's cool to dress like what they saw in a Eminem video is a thug, that is just the way to look if you are the urban 18-25 set it seems. I have talked to a number of fashionally challenged shooters at the range and by and large I find out that they are:

-Pretty decent folks.
-Just bought a gun and need help.
-Appreciate that help.

Conversely I ran into one very clean cut young man who was about to I thought commit a major safety faux pas. (Shooting a NIB SKS without checking for grease in the bore) Turns out he'd had the gun for a while, the bore was clear and he was just too cheap to get something other than its shipping box to carry it in. Well, he didn't really say that, I was dismissed in a rather foul manner, turns out I had met apparently the world's biggest black racist. As he proceeded to try for head shots on the white guy situational target...

So anyway, I've met plenty of clean-cut a-holes, lots of urban fashioned nice folks and some in the middle. Back to our supposed gang-bangers. So what if they were the biggest meanest most cold-blooded Crips every to walk South-Central? (Clue #1 Well they probably woulda re-loaded the Python and capped you fool) If you teach them how to shoot well it increases their chance of hitting their intended target(another gang member) and not some kid six blocks away? I don't see the problem in that.

Another example. I ran into a group at the range last week that I watched for a while carefully based on the fact that they were trying to be way too tactical. Pistol lanyards, HK pistols, 870 folding stock, Becker packs, short AR with every gadget ever made on it etc. Turns out they were pretty new shooters, wanted to do some matches and their only crimes were reading too many gun mags and having spare cash. Not the SEEL wannabees that I suspected, nice guys. Incidentally, the ringleader(Identified by coolest gear) was not only a Skunk lookalike, but was almost as tactical. Didn't see any carbonfiber though, but there is definitely some east coast competition. :D

Judge people, not appearances.

Braz
April 4, 2003, 02:30 PM
I think Chris Rock's take on stereotyping is funny,

"Guys, women who wear provocative clothing are not whores. But they are wearing a whore's uniform." :)

Wilhelm
April 4, 2003, 02:54 PM
You guys are cracking me up. I have numerous tattoos and quite a few peircings. I some times dress like a thug and other times I do not. I run a successful business and have a very intelligent beautiful wife. I love my life a great deal and really care less what other people (unless they are a customer) think of me. You guys worry way to much what other people are doing. As long as they are not hurting you or anyone else who cares what they look like?



Wilhelm

OF
April 4, 2003, 03:19 PM
Everyone I see gets assessed to some degree. I make my assessments of people based on the information I have at that specific moment in time. If all the information they are giving me is that they either idolize gang bangers or are gang bangers, then until they provide me with more data, like whipping out their Rhodes Scholar award or helping an old lady across the street, they will get assessed appropriately based on currently available information: visual information. How I choose to handle that person will be based on that currently available information.

Lets be clear. I'm not so naive as to believe that everyone who dresses like a gang banger is a gang banger, obviously. Does that mean that I am going to assume that someone who dresses like a thug is actually a boy scout just to assuage some PC sensitivities? Hardly.

Someone once said: "Be polite and respectful, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." I don't walk around in condition white, and without a mechanism for evaluating and assessing people in an instant, subconsciously, I don't see how you can claim condition yellow.

I would not know how to live any other way.

- Gabe

TheOtherOne
April 4, 2003, 03:28 PM
I guess I'm probably jumping to conclusions and stereotyping by saying this... but, alot of people on this board jump to conclusions and stereotype. It's not possible because of the way these 4 guys talked and dressed that they were just some friends hanging out at the range trying out a new gun one of them had saved up to buy? I know I wasn't an expert the first time I shot a handgun. Growing up mainly only shooting rifles, I kind of learned on my own the basics of proper grip etc with handguns. It would of been nice if someone just came over and helped me, regardless of whether not they were just trying to scope out the serial number.

:(

The word hypocrite comes to mind. I think everyone needs to remember things like this when some blissninny calls you a gun nut and thinks you must be planning a full-auto bank robbery just because you happen to like guns.

DontShootMe
April 4, 2003, 03:31 PM
At the range last weekend, a group of 'teenagers' came in and rented some guns to shoot - they obviously had no gun handling experience and I did not stick around more than 5 mins after they arrived because I refused to be part of any possible 'accicent'.

my $.02

spacemanspiff
April 4, 2003, 03:45 PM
how rude! you dare come in here with your ageist remarks?? was it necessary to say that that group was 'teenagers'? thus fueling the assumption that teenagers are irresponsible and unable to handle guns properly!
:rolleyes:

rock jock
April 4, 2003, 04:13 PM
Folks,

There is a world of difference between being racist and being careful. Ignoring typical signs of minority gang involvement is no more prudent for a white guy than ignoring typical signs of a white supremecist (e.g., young white kid with shaved head, Confederate flag shirt driving a pickup truck) would be for a black guy. Just because you recognize these signs and are given to more caution does not mean you are a racist.

OF
April 4, 2003, 04:23 PM
Exactly.

- Gabe

zahc
April 4, 2003, 04:57 PM
"how rude! you dare come in here with your ageist remarks?? was it necessary to say that that group was 'teenagers'? thus fueling the assumption that teenagers are irresponsible and unable to handle guns properly! "

hehe!

I'm a teenager
:uhoh:

:D this is a good thread.

pale horse
April 4, 2003, 05:36 PM
Did they look like this http://www.geocities.com/krillbeniggaz/ ......

SoDFW Jason
April 4, 2003, 06:06 PM
Pale- 10baseT be the hardest of all yo!!! Weez out!!

jmbg29
April 4, 2003, 06:23 PM
http://www.geocities.com/krillbeniggaz/10base.jpg

Sisco
April 4, 2003, 06:58 PM
pale horse - Does the website have an English version?:D

pale horse
April 4, 2003, 07:00 PM
Sisco that is bonics.... Did you not learn it in High School?

spacemanspiff
April 4, 2003, 07:06 PM
deez clownz be all 'dat AND a baggy of doritaz!

http://www.geocities.com/thestuntaz/

Sisco
April 4, 2003, 07:23 PM
bonics. No, I must've skipped class that day.
While we're sharing URAL's here's one for the bunch my daughter hangs out with. Looks like they've upgraded the site, it's not 100% yet.
www.firesquadpunks.com

HABU
April 4, 2003, 07:26 PM
Way to go O. Porter Glockwell, see what you have started?:D

CWL
April 4, 2003, 10:38 PM
I palmed the gun ...

Doubt they were real gangstas since around here, you wouldn't have made it home. The Bloods and Crips around here wouldn't let you disrespect them like that, neither would a Hell's Angel.

Not the smartest thing to grab a stranger's gun. I would have treated someone grabbing my gun as a prelude to an assault.

They paid their money, let them shoot. If they're unsafe, tell the rangemasters since it's their job.

Explain again why it's your job?

Combat-wombat
April 5, 2003, 02:38 AM
Ax yo trip! We all balli'n wit' them twin fo-fo's and dem glocks poppin' some shots at da range yo wit dat pimped-out colt six-shooter 3-5-7 it's all good, homey? Yo, bust a couple caps in dem crips wit dat T-9, pop in the tripped out caddy and f***ing roll out! That be right, b**ch?

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 03:04 AM
Fo' shnizzle, dog.

Word.

WonderNine
April 5, 2003, 03:23 AM
What conclusion would you draw from a bunch of folks dressed in their best "urban" attire, fresh off the boat, with a top of the line handgun they can't figure out how to use properly? I guess that would be racial profiling, but I'd have a hard time believing that all these things don't add up to a situation worth investigating.

Seriously, in your first post I thought you were joking until I read this. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dash Riprock
April 5, 2003, 03:59 AM
As a lifelong resident of Richard Daley's li'l dictatorship by the lake, I just wanna say "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.......".

If y'all want to be enlightened liberals and give people the benefit of the doubt, that's up to you.

Speaking for myself, when I see people like that, I go into condition red, and grasp the handle of the gun that I'm not supposed to have 'cause it's against the law.

biere
April 5, 2003, 08:21 AM
Unloading a firearm that way tells me either they have no manual to the firearm and don't wish to learn by asking at a gun store or on the net or writing to the gun maker, or they are too ignorant to RTFM to something they can't even pretend to understand well.

I figure unloading it that way will eventually hurt the crane a bit and maybe get some lead coming out the side, I will be long gone by then.

As for profiling, people on this board do it all the time I bet. If you see a round with a dent in the case do you use it? A small dent maybe, but what about a big crease? What about a high primer, a back wards primer, a bullet shoved way into the case?

Profiling is simply reading signs, and if people dress and act a certain way I accept that info and deduce something. Yes I am wrong a lot, but that is because I work with new info and learn.

I have a rpoblem with the police or gov. trying to say they can profile people and take action against them because of it. But I sure can do it and leave an area if I feel that may be a good idea.

TheOtherOne
April 5, 2003, 09:43 AM
Profiling is simply reading signs, and if people dress and act a certain way I accept that info and deduce something.

You forgot color of skin and spoken language.

OF
April 5, 2003, 10:06 AM
If you can't see the difference between someone's chosen mode of dress and behavior and the color of their skin, I don't know how to explain it to you.

- Gabe

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 01:27 PM
Seriously, in your first post I thought you were joking until I read this.


Nope, 'fraid not.

Let's see.

Dressed like a gang-member? Check.

Don't speak the language? Check. (Hard to earn a good living honestly if you don't. Usually means you work low-wage manual labor jobs.)

Expensive piece of property that would excede their probable means? Check.

Familiarity with said piece of property? No. (Usually things like this tip police off that a car has been stolen. Why not a gun?)




In my part of the real world, that's certainly cause for concern or to investigate.

I'm sure it's different in N. Dakota. :rolleyes:

A few indians (or rednecks, just to be racially sensitive) off the reservation raising hell is the extent of the problem, huh?

spacemanspiff
April 5, 2003, 01:55 PM
now hold on a minute there cz-75....
although i always come off as a bigot and have my own strong opinions about everything, did i just read you correctly in saying that people who dont speak the language and likely work manual labor are 'suspect' in your eyes??

has every manual laborer you've encountered been untrustworthy? a thug?

thats like saying every hispanic knows where to get the best deals on weed, seeing how tons and tons of it flow into this country from mexico.

there are lots of honest people that dont speak english and work hard for their money at honest jobs. they do landscaping, janitorial, auto detailing, auto mechanics, construction, etc. they dont have to know english, just have a supervisor who can communicate with them what they need to be doing.

i am a bigot, but only towards those individuals that have proven they dont deserve my respect.

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 02:11 PM
did i just read you correctly in saying that people who dont speak the language and likely work manual labor are 'suspect' in your eyes??

When they have expensive property in their possession that would seem beyond their means? Yes.

Do you think illegals working construction, in the fields or landscaping, in a restaurant, etc. earn enough to buy such an expensive extravagance? Part of the reason these guys are hired is they work cheap and are exploitable. They can't complain or INS hauls them away when the employer tips them off.

Would I question the same situation with some scumy looking white guy owning the gun? Yes, but not to the same extent (he could be a guy who has a skilled blue collar trade, certainly at above minimum wage), so I am biased. Sue me.

Not speaking the language isn't enough, though. The clothing, the behavior, the lack of familiarity, probable socio-economic status all add up.

TheOtherOne
April 5, 2003, 02:14 PM
In other words... if you don't choose to dress whrighte, to act whrighte and talk whrighte you're up for scrutiny as a likely criminal?

spacemanspiff
April 5, 2003, 02:16 PM
alright, i did misread your statements. it is a COLLABORATION of variables that paint the entire picture.

i wasnt saying bias is necessarily a bad thing. if it is fueled by personal experiences then i feel a person has every right to be biased. its when someone sits around saying 'i dislike ******** because my daddy told me they do ***** and *****.'
thats ignorance, not personal experience.

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 02:19 PM
In other words... if you don't choose to dress whrighte, to act whrighte and talk whrighte you're up for scrutiny as a likely criminal?

Doing all those things doesn't set one up as likely to have good earning power, so having expensive property would seem antithetical to one's likely means.

spacemanspiff
April 5, 2003, 02:27 PM
cz-75, could you explain in a little more detail how it is that you determine if a person has enough earning power to own/possess expensive property?

for example, you're at the firing range, you see someone across the way that has nice hardware. what are you looking for to determine if they are actually legitimate?

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 02:33 PM
wasnt saying bias is necessarily a bad thing. if it is fueled by personal experiences then i feel a person has every right to be biased. its when someone sits around saying 'i dislike ******** because my daddy told me they do ***** and *****.'

Folks who can't speak the language generally don't earn much.

Hispanic folks who can't speak the language are generally illegal, due to our proximity to Latin America and the ease of which persons from this area can get here. Russians, Chinese, etc. can't swim here, so it is less likely they are illegal, but not impossible, as those being smuggled on freighters and cargo containers attest.

Illegals earn less than even legal immigrants w/ poor English comprehension, for the reasons of high-turnover to avoid deportation, exploitation, ignorance of the law, etc.

Gang-members seem to have an inability to follow the law, as an understatement. Gang-members cultivate a "look" to identify themselves to one another, possibly the community at large. They certainly like to "tag" their territory. They also have money since legal means to earn money are no concern.

Gang membership isn't limited to the US. There are Mexican, Jamaican, Columbian, etc. gangs.

Those who look like they are A) gang-members and B) illegal immigrants possess a dichotomy. Illegals don't earn much (legally) and gang-members break the law, but do have money garnered through illegal means.

I see nothing irrational in my concern and suspicion about the legal acquisition of their firearm and probable intent for its use.

spacemanspiff
April 5, 2003, 02:43 PM
i suppose a persons location also dictates the opinions. up here in Alaska, we see few illegal immigrants compared to the states in the southwest.
we have lots of russians and eastern europeans. a lot of serbians, yugoslavians, and all those countries that dissolved when the USSR broke apart.
i think our largest hispanic community is made up of dominicans.
and we have a huge filipino and korean community as well.

plus up here, the scruffiest looking of all could be a successful businessman who earns a living commercial fishing, oil industry, etc.

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 02:49 PM
Going on looks isn't fail safe. Actions speak louder, but I won't drop my guard just because it isn't PC to stereotype, until the actions demonstrate intent.

Going back to the original scenario, these gang-looking possible illegals who didn't seem to understand the language could've nodded and said "gracias" rather than making unknown gestures and bantering to each other when Porter showed them what the ejector is for. Would've gone a long way toward easing suspicions, rather than increasing them.

Wilhelm
April 5, 2003, 04:02 PM
You guys are at the very least entertaining. I own a roofing company. I have 3 brothers that are not illegal but you wouldnt know that by looking at them. I pay the oldest $30 an hour and the other 2 $25.00 an hour. I think maybe just maybe they might be able to afford a Python. Maybe.




Wilhelm

Porter Rockwell
April 5, 2003, 04:12 PM
Well I've read the responses and held off on commenting until now.
It's very sobering to see politically correct gun owners that fail to see their own hypocracy and oximoronic beliefs.
PC is a radical left wing stratagy designed to baffle weak minds.
Clothing makes the man, is that the old saying? When some people choose to dress as gangsters why should'nt we assume they're gangsters until proven otherwise?

If Mike Tyson, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dog and many more icons all engage in stereotypical behaviour is it racist to define it?
In my short online counter culture research I ended up at at a FBI statistical study that includes race tho hispanics are lumped in with whites the numbers are revealing truths not spoken in public.
I live in a relatively small city and try to keep tabs on the several local counter cultures that local police tend to ignore (just like your cities I'll wager!), information is then distributed to the Neighborhood Watch.
FYI, I am a range officer and have handled thousands of folks guns over the years, when I see unsafe gun handling, gun malfunctons or a new gun I've not seen I'll be there.

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 04:22 PM
I have 3 brothers that are not illegal but you wouldnt know that by looking at them. I pay the oldest $30 an hour and the other 2 $25.00 an hour. I think maybe just maybe they might be able to afford a Python. Maybe.

That's nice. How many illegals make even a third of that? Or legal immigrants, for that matter? Your anecdote.

TheOtherOne
April 5, 2003, 04:43 PM
It's very sobering to see politically correct gun owners that fail to see their own hypocracy and oximoronic beliefs.

:D Did someone call me PC? I guess I can see how you would get that from my posts but if you knew me, you would be laughing.

Maybe I just like giving people, who's only faux paus is speaking a different language, dressing funny and not knowing the ins and outs of their new gun, the benefit of the doubt.

Did they flash "gang signs" at YOU or were they just playing around with each other? Did they call you names for helping them out? Were they rude and beligerent? A few minorities with a gun at a gun range, speaking spanish aren't going to alarm me. I'll shoot back when they shoot at me, not jump to conclusions before hand.

Sisco
April 5, 2003, 07:00 PM
I believe I understand the point CZ-75 is trying to make.

You can't judge a book by its cover but if you read between the lines you can tell what it's about.
Close enough?

I live in a reliatvely small town with a high percentage of immigrant popuation due to the beef packing industry. I'd say 80% of the Hispanics that come here to work, legally or otherwise, are decent hard working folks. The other 20% give them all a bad name with their meth makin', crack smokin', don't you diss' my lowrider attitude.
The gang bangers are pretty easy to tell from the honest folks. Not a stereotype, it's the image they want to project.

Yuck Mouth
April 5, 2003, 08:58 PM
I find some of this talk amusing. Most young people don't dress like gangbangers. Most gangbangers dress like them. If your from an inner city neighborhood the style of dress is usually baggy pants and some oversized shirt with a sports team on it or something. Thats just the style of dress. Not everyone wants to dress like Poindexter or Biff from the 'burbs.

I don't think I'm being pc, i just try not to pass judgement on people till I know them or get a wiff of their personality.

Also how do you ascertain a persons 'earning power' based on how they may dress or talk on the weekends or outside of work?I f

Tall Man
April 5, 2003, 09:12 PM
You can't judge a book by its cover but if you read between the lines you can tell what it's about. Close enough?
Close, Sisco. Now let's take this all the way home:


You can't judge a book by its cover.

But you can tell how much it costs.


Ladies, the state of readiness is nothing more than a prudent response to circumstances.

Porter made a salient point, one that does not deserve the whipping that it has received in this thread.

Tall Man

The TFL Alumnus formerly known as Tall Man.

ed dixon
April 5, 2003, 11:16 PM
Many suburban white boys perpetrate this same style of dress, talk, and attitude. Many folks period act like giddy idiots when they get their hands on a firearm for the first time with no supervision or guidance. Many "inner-city" kids come by these same "customs" in a more direct way and yet happen to be basically decent, benign guys with no ill will in their hearts. I understand the more skittish members here who are unnerved by this scenario -- sometimes you should be. I'd have to have been there to give a real opinion. But I wonder how many times the good guys (like us) get the dirty stares just because they don't conform to Aunt Esther's version of a nice boy. (Elvis looked like a hoodlum, right?)

CZ-75
April 5, 2003, 11:38 PM
But I wonder how many times the good guys (like us) get the dirty stares just because they don't conform to Aunt Esther's version of a nice boy. (Elvis looked like a hoodlum, right?)

If your actions match your look....

Some of those suburban white boys copping a "gangsta" look actually ARE gang members. In case you haven't heard, Crips and Bloods are franchising and small cities and the 'burbs are untapped markets for "home-made pharmaceuticals." It isn't a race-based judgment. Thinking folks with increasing degrees of pigment represent an increasing level of threat can get you killed by those whom you least expected.

One more point about illegals, which is that these folks often come from places where the rule of law is negligible, the cops commit many of the crimes, and a checkbook assures acquittal. The violent element contained therein is probably less afraid of the consequences than our homegrown criminals and could easily wind up outside our borders once again, effectively out of the reach of US law.

ahadams
April 6, 2003, 12:07 AM
guys, y'all can argue back and forth all you like, but I've been cruised by gang bangas and done the I'm not going to notice you because if I do I'm gonna have to kill your *** back and forth with gang bangas too ( the latter was in ALEXANDRIA VA, not in DC proper at all - anybody tells you they're only in DC is ignorant or lying) and if you can't smell it when you see them then you shouldn't be playing the game. I was not and never will be interested in reading their sign, I just want them to know that if they mess with what's mine they'll pay. why do you worry about all this other stuff anyway?

Man am I glad we moved to Missouri!

hondo68
April 6, 2003, 12:13 AM
Is a serious disorder. It's not cool to make fun of the bang0phobically challenged.:neener:

CZ-75
April 6, 2003, 12:21 AM
Man am I glad we moved to Missouri!

Where? Unless you're out in the stick a ways, I don't think you're safe.


KC (and 'burbs), St. Louis (and 'burbs), Columbia, St. Joe, Springfield all have their problems.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff City, Joplin, Cape Girardeau, Kirksville, Sedalia, Warrensburg, etc. have them too.

Tamara
April 6, 2003, 12:24 AM
I worked for years at a gun shop in Forsyth County, Georgia which has (due to the presence of a Tyson Chicken plant) a fair-to-middlin' hispanic population.

More than one guy who couldn't speak a word came in and dutifully plunked down his money on a layaway gun every payday. These guys had pretty bucks-up taste in guns, too; Colts or S&W's for the most part, especially .38 Super 1911's and any vent-rib barrel Colt wheelgun (Python, Diamondback, Anaconda). Sometimes it took 'em six months to pay off the gun, but we never complained because they were regular as clockwork on their payments. Frequently their wife would have to fill out the Orange (Spanish) 4473 for 'em when they finally paid it off, as they couldn't read, either.

Just an anecdote...

CZ-75
April 6, 2003, 12:41 AM
These guys had pretty bucks-up taste in guns, too; Colts or S&W's for the most part, especially .38 Super 1911's and any vent-rib barrel Colt wheelgun (Python, Diamondback, Anaconda). Sometimes it took 'em six months to pay off the gun, but we never complained because they were regular as clockwork on their payments.

Perhaps that's my problem - I think of these as extravagances for folks with a higher level of income.

At least they seem to have good taste (guns, not clothing, should they dress anything like the first post indicated). ;)

Yohan
April 6, 2003, 03:06 AM
According to some of these people, you'd think black or hispanic people who happen to dress a certain way shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons. How very mature :rolleyes:

Wilhelm
April 6, 2003, 10:00 AM
According to some of these people, you'd think black or hispanic people who happen to dress a certain way shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons. How very mature

Thats exactly what I am getting also.


Wilhelm

Bruce H
April 6, 2003, 01:30 PM
I dress in what i'm comfortable in. I really don't worry about what others think of me. Anybody who is put off by how someone looks or dresses I don't want to know anyway. I have absolutely no use for the Fred Phelps of the world. Reading this thread it is of little wonder why the anti's win so often.

Don Gwinn
April 6, 2003, 01:56 PM
I guess I missed the part where it was any of your or my business how somebody paid for his gun. "Property beyond his means?" When the only clue you have as to the man's means is your personal opinion of the taste of his dress and your personal opinion of the state of his grammar, that sounds like awfully thin justification treating people like criminals.

I wear a tie and pressed slacks and shirt to work. I don't wear 'em to shoot. When I have the chance to go shooting, it's usually in old pants and an old t-shirt. I bet I don't look like someone with the "means" to have my P220. Luckily for me, I'm white and my accent marks me as a local.

CZ-75
April 6, 2003, 09:48 PM
According to some of these people, you'd think black or hispanic people who happen to dress a certain way shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons.

You mean like members of a criminal group? Perhaps you think these folks wear colors, hats w/ the tag on, etc. because they saw it on MTV? The other way around - the gang culture on the street drives the fashion. It helps that a lot of the hip-hop artists have a background with gangs.

I suppose that gang members now wear Brooks Bros. suits? They INTENTIONALLY wear clothing that IDs them for each other. Why do you think kids were getting killed for wearing red or blue colors in LA? Those colors ID'd the Bloods and the Crips, respectively.

Don't dress like a criminal, don't have people treat you like a potential threat.

No matter how they dress, they have a right to own a weapon, unless, of course, they actually ARE criminals.

When the only clue you have as to the man's means is your personal opinion of the taste of his dress and your personal opinion of the state of his grammar, that sounds like awfully thin justification treating people like criminals.

You are oversimplifying.

People who can't speak English aren't going to earn the same as someone who does. That's pretty common sense. They have problems with directions, they can't interact effectively w/ co-workers, same with customers, neither are they going to do the paperwork effectively.

I also suggest you read up a bit more on those who speak "ebonics." While a dialect of English, it is considered a liability, not an asset by employers. Probably because the majority of those who speak standard English have difficulty understanding it. People who can only connect with 12% of the population aren't as valuble to employers as those who can communicate with 90+%.

Lastly, we can take literacy. Illiterate individuals can't follow written directions, can't communicate except orally and can't do paperwork. Not a recipe to earn a great deal.


Now couple likely economic disadvantage with clothing worn by criminals and expensive hardware and you have some questions, to say the least.

I guess I missed the part where it was any of your or my business how somebody paid for his gun.

If they committed a crime to acquire it, maybe? Either stealing it, selling drugs, or not meeting the necessary citizenship and background qualifications. Of course, I could just let them go, possibly to create another "gun crime" statistic.

biere
April 7, 2003, 12:41 PM
You forgot color of skin and spoken language.

Above was said by someone about my post.

I did not forget anything.

One thing the seems to follow on tamara's post is that if these guys spend so much of their money on nice guns, I would expect them to take care of that gun as well. The unloading method is what bothers me in the original post and it would be the first problem I have. But maybe I am assuming too much when someone works to make payments for several months.

spacemanspiff
April 7, 2003, 12:42 PM
If they committed a crime to acquire it, maybe? Either stealing it, selling drugs, or not meeting the necessary citizenship and background qualifications. Of course, I could just let them go, possibly to create another "gun crime" statistic.

cz-75, soooo..... aside from riling up hordes of THR'ers because of your bias, what do you do about those who by appearance and speech shouldnt have the luxury of owning high-quality-even-higher-price boomsticks? are you investigating their backgrounds and criminal history deeper than NICS does? collecting evidence that they earn their money in less than moral ways?

H Romberg
April 7, 2003, 12:47 PM
I think we've tagged into the root issue here. The way you look is a statement. It's a form of communication, and it's the first thing you tell somebody when you meet them. Because of that, it affects the way you're treated by others.

Walk almost anywhere in "clean cut" business attire and carrying any gun you want. Assuming you're acting like you belong there, and you're being safe with your gun, people will assume you're either licensed, an LEO, or otherwise on the up. They may still check if you're carrying say, an MP-5, but they won't be nearly as threatened as if you're, a swarthy man in a turban with an AK.

If you dress like an identifiable group (gangsters) people will often assume you are a member of that group and act accordingly until they know otherwise. If that group is known for poverty, it will be assumed that you are poor. If that group is known for violence, expect folks to shy away from you.

I dress like a business person these days. People tend to treat me with normal respect when they notice me, which isn't often. When I was in the army over in Germany, there were a bunch of us who hung out together on weekends. We didn't have any hair, wore too much black leather, and despite being polite educated people, we had trouble getting taxis to stop for us at night. Then again, we NEVER got jumped downtown by the local Turks either, unlike some of the other soldiers. Go figure.

CZ-75
April 7, 2003, 12:55 PM
cz-75, soooo..... aside from riling up hordes of THR'ers because of your bias, what do you do about those who by appearance and speech shouldnt have the luxury of owning high-quality-even-higher-price boomsticks? are you investigating their backgrounds and criminal history deeper than NICS does? collecting evidence that they earn their money in less than moral ways?

Nothing of the sort.

I just wanted to make a point that, should this person have acquired their gun illegally, it damn well is my business, along with LE, every other law-abiding gun owner, and even soccer moms.

To say that it is nobody's business is asinine.

One more point, which is I freely admit my bias. I wonder how many of the offended put their money where their mouth is.


Oh, and biere made a good point about people who do actually work hard to save for a nice gun wouldn't abuse it. But that's just some wild assumption I made based on their language skills and skin color. :rolleyes:

I've never felt that I was going to have to shoot a black or hispanic guy dressed in dress casuals or wearing a suit. Same for minority members with their kids and family. Or females of the same groups. Or the elderly of same.

Usually males 15-45, skewing lower in that age range. Flashing gang signs and wearing gang-type clothing don't help. Crime statistics bear this out, so who's living in a pipe dream?

Fortunately, I never had to shoot, so I guess I have a ways to go before I'm as scared as has been implied. In fact, the closest I've ever come to shooting anyone, twice even, have been white redneck-types.

Carlos Cabeza
April 7, 2003, 12:56 PM
I'm following ya CZ, And I am glad your out there. Obviously a job where statistics and numbers dictate probability would be difficult not to use experience to predict outcome. After 9/11, all the PC poo went out the door. I am OK with it. Another point, The bad guys in Pulp Fiction wore suits and ties which made them less obvious. Physical attributes and attire have come to indentify a person more than education, integrity, character, conviction, compassion etc. and other virtues that predict moral compass in an individual or group. By using the lax language and manner of dress, a person displays lax morals and ethics. It's a fact of life, deal with it or check out.

Joe Demko
April 7, 2003, 01:20 PM
Really, I don't care and am unrepentant.

I just wanted to make sure you didn't bring this down to your level with race-baiting.

If you want to know why I react with more caution to minorities who look like thugs, I'd have to say that I think you and your fellow "educators" and their own "poverty pimps" have filled their heads with reinforcement for their feelings of resentment (justified and imagined) to the point that my skin color makes me a target of opportunity to "redress" those feelings, one white racist oppressor at a time.

I do so love the attempt to talk down to us. I couldn't have guessed you were an "educator" otherwise

Your participation in this thread has been invaluable. Some of the other members who read your posts may have asked themselves "Do I sound like this?" and given some thought to their own attitudes and why they hold them. Please accept my thanks for serving as such a fine example of your type.
If you frequently find yourself being a target, maybe it has less to do with the color of your skin than it does with you antagonizing those around you. If, in fact, you haven't been a target then you're just talking out of your behind, aren't you?
As for me, I'm a teacher and proud of it. If you don't like my profession, then I'd say "score one for the educators." Having an endorsement from someone who presents himself as you did in this thread wouldn't be something about which to boast.
BTW, I'll never stereotype you again. You've already made yourself such a caricature of the fearful white guy that it would be pointless...

CZ-75
April 7, 2003, 01:25 PM
Your participation in this thread has been invaluable. Some of the other members who read your posts may have asked themselves "Do I sound like this?" and given some thought to their own attitudes and why they hold them. Please accept my thanks for serving as such a fine example of your type.


:rolleyes:

Yawn.

If you frequently find yourself being a target, maybe it has less to do with the color of your skin than it does with you antagonizing those around you. If, in fact, you haven't been a target then you're just talking out of your behind, aren't you?

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I should just wait until I become a victim so I can be justified.



"You don't have to think too hard when you talk to a teacher."

- JD Salinger

Betty
April 7, 2003, 01:39 PM
I think this thread isn't constructive anymore.

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