[BigFatKen]

In 1977, I was driving my Chevy truck west with a number of other hunters through a field. A big buck appeared about 280 yards away running east. I stopped the truck, took up a sitting position and fired my Ruger M-77 .30-06 with 180 gr round nosed bullets. Everyone in the truck got out by then and starting firing. The buck continued coming closer until he got to a line of brushy trees. You know, the ones you see between every 40 acres in some place where the rocks are thrown. The buck turned north to run at a direct broadside to us and even Grace, who was "riding the hump" of the Chevy was shooting. Terry emptied his Winchester M-94 .30-30 and also added three more for a total of nine shots. Grace fired her excellent Ithaca .308 with a palm swell grip, light trigger and 3x9 scope firing 150 gr pointed bullets. Larry fired his Uncle's .35 Rem auto loader. Bill shot several times with his nice Browning BAR .308 deer rilfe, also a 3x9 scope. The buck continued out of sight.

We found the buck dead a little past a woodline. He stopped after he got ten feet into the woods. Since I was considered the smartest about guns, I was given the task of figuring out who killed it. There was only one bullet hole in the side but several nicks here and there. When they retrieved the bullet, I looked at it and thought the process of elimination was best.

I asked Larry for a .35 Rem first as I thought there was little chance he hit it at 220 yards. His bullet was too fat and he said it was not his. The bullet was clearly one of the thirty caliber shooters. It was too mangled to determine if it started as a round nose or a pointed bullet. Looking at the bullet more closely, it had four lands and grooves. I dreaded the chance that Terry got it as I feared we would have to see if it had a slower twist than the newer barrels. This is not easy until you get to some good tools or a spent bullet from each shooter. I'm afraid that it was a cheap factory bullet and even at the extended range there was a core seperation and all that was recovered was the copper jacket. All of the lead ended up in the guts in tiny unseen pieces.

The real identiy was determined in the field.

So, can we figure who killed the buck? Grace, Bill, Terry, or your humble coresponcent, Ken.

The first correct answer with the real reasons wins a simple web site for 60 days. The web address is about selling houses. I usually sell real estate there.
The time is 5:00pm CST. Good luck.

[GRB]

I'll give it an only slightly educated guess. It was the shooter who fired the lightest bullet. The rifles that fire heavier bullets use a higher number of lands in the barrels. Therefore I would giesstimate it had to be either Grace or Terry. Next I am going to hesitate a hypothesis that no one currently manufactures a rifle barrel with only 4 lands. My guess would be this is one of the hallmarks of the 30-30 so I am going to go with Spray and Pray (he doesn't kill someone) Terry. I figure a gun manufactured to war time specs in WWII cut corners. If his gun is made to those specs then I figure it has the fewest lands.

All guess work based on an extremely limited knowledge of this stuff. probably wrong, but I figured I'd give it a shot.

Of course it could be the deer actually died of a heart attack from being frightened out of its wits by all those gunshots.

[sumpnz]

One way would be to weigh the bullet and see if the retained weight exceeded the original weight of any .30 cal shooters. You could also pull apart a loaded round and compare the base of each bullet against the recovered one.

However, I'm going to guess that the kill was awarded to Grace, since she was a woman and you three guys decided to do the chivalrous thing.

[BigFatKen]

I'm afraid that it was a cheap factory bullet and even at the extended range there was a core seperation and all that was recovered was the copper jacket. All of the lead ended up in the guts in tiny unseen pieces.

The choice of Grace was a sound, logical deduction. Of course, we need a more rifle like approach on this web site.

If you say that no one makes a rifle barrel with four lands today, then the year 1977 must be a hint.

The real identiy was determined in the field.

Since I did not put these facts in the story, Ya'll both may have another try if you like.

[Azrael256]

then the year 1977 must be a hint If you're refering to the M77, then no. It's a six-groove.

[Psssniper]

bill

because he used a deer rifle

[sumpnz]

Since you states that it's obviously a .30 cal, and not .35 that eliminates Larry. I'm going knock Terry out, since anyone who takes 9 shots probably didn't hit with any of them. Since it's been stated that the M77 is a 6-groove, that should knock Ken out, as the bullet was a fired from a 4-groove. That would leave bill and Grace. Since you implied that Grace only fired once with all the other .30 cal shooters firing mulitple times, I will again award Grace the honor of making the kill. That, and I'm going make the WAG that the Ithaca was a 4-groove, vs the BAR being something other than 4-groove.

[f4t9r]

the Butler did it , Really
I think it was Mr. Green with a candlestick in the kitchen


It was Ken

[BigFatKen]

Some of the names are changed to protect the gulity.
Ken

[yorec]

It was the gunman on the grassy knoll of course.


:evil:

[MICHAEL T]

You got it .You fired the first shot and it hit Just took a while to bleed out.

[Stand_Watie]

The description of that buck slaying would make a good screenplay for a scene in a hollywood piece humorously portraying southernors, hunters or yokels. I'm not criticizing your hunting technique, I just find the imagery humorous.

[MAURICE]

The bullet wounded him.
What got him was the massive heart attack. :D

[Red Tornado]

I'm taking a WAG that the entry hole was in his left side and none of you got him. He was already shot by an unseen hunter?

I don't really believe this, but I want to make sure I'm subscribed to this thread when the real answer comes out, and figured I should at least take a guess. Although Mr. Green with a candlestick sounds good, too. :)
RT

[BigFatKen]

If a deer is going east, then it turns north, its right side is presented to anyone to its east. The deer was shot in the right side. This really happened. I changed some names and the date was a couple of years before. This was changed as I have told this story before in the last thiry years and if the true details were not changed a little, anyone who knew the exact story would know who was the shooter.

It did not occur to me to say that I was transporting the other hunters between fields about a mile apart. We were not "hunting" at the time by driving around in a truck waiting to find a deer. If I thought I was going to be presented with shots over 200 yards, I would have been using my .25-06 It was not my farm. I was told my max shot would be 100 yards when I got to my assigned stand on the edge of a different treeline.

Hey, no sour grapes please if you cannot tell with 100% certainty.
Sherlock Holmes said "When you rule out the impossible, whatever is left, however unlikely, must be the truth." Figure it out. I'll give ya'll a hint.

MOST OF THE STORY IS MISDIRECTION AND "RED HERRRINGS". You only need to read one line and know the answer. This has been solved with an iron clad explanation of exactly how it is done in a manner that would hold up in any Court of Law. The first man gave me the answer in a personal message, but he had no interest in the prize. He said "It is too much fun reading what everyone is writing to solve it so soon."
Ken

[Camp David]

I stopped the truck, took up a sitting position and fired...

Not sure who killed deer but based on your description every one of you could be arrested for firing a rifle within the road right-of-way... most states have stiff rules preventing "road hunting"... :uhoh: Yeah I know...you were driving "through a field" but still, shooting from a truck is pretty pathetic!

Besides if you aim is so bad it takes you more than two shots to kill deer...who really cares who hit it? ;)

And the answer...if the truck is going west and the deer is running east and all of a sudden "The buck continued coming closer" I recommend you maniacs buy a new compass!

[thereisnospoon]

I've read this post twice and now I have a headache....

[lucky_fool]

If a deer is going east, then it turns north, its left side is presented to anyone to its east.

I'm confused. Anything headed north will have its right side presented to the east, not the left. Unless it's running backward.

[adaman04]

Hard to decide when over a dozen shots were fired. So you all are the cowboys I hear shooting up the country every deer season? I prefer the one shot method. Ammo is too expensive. :D

In all honesty, its hard to tell. At that distance, from a sitting position, you have my vote.

[JGReed]

At first I figured you'd be able to tell by who was shooting when it was broadside versus coming straight on since you said it had a hole in the side (although lucky_fool is right, you should have had the deer's right side facing you once it turned north). But re-reading the original post it appears that everyone was shooting both before and after it turned.

Don't know how many lands are in the barrels of any of those rifles, but did you look down the bores and determine that only one had four?

Heh heh...but now I'm subsribed to the thread and I can't wait to hear the answer.

[Azrael256]

Oh for the... :banghead: This one is REAL obvious with a minimum of research.

[One of Many]

My vote is that none of the shooters from the truck hit the deer with the killing shot. It was shot by someone else, and reacted to being shot by changing direction from eastbound to northbound.

[atblis]

when that much extraneous information is provided, the answer is etremely obvious.

[newfalguy101]

ok I suck at obvious so

The answer is_________________

[BigFatKen]

I have a winner. He sent me a message with evidence that would stand up in a Court of Law in a murder case as proof positive.

[GRB]

So are you going to let us all in on it or did you already and I missed something?

[jbear6]

I'll have to go with Grace since she didn't start firing until "The buck turned north to run at a direct broadside to us".

Jbear6

[Azrael256]

Look at the bottom of this (http://www.keystonearms.com/riflefs~main.html) page.

[BigFatKen]

Look at what Azrael256 posted. The poor .gif is beating his head against the wall it is so easy. Others have said when there is so much information, the answer is most likekly to be simple. I quoted Sherlock Holmes

Here goes:
We elminated Larry right away. I put this in because it is true but also to get ya'll thinking about a bullet's weight which is not revelant. This is called a red herring in a story. In the 1920's stocks were sold with big red letters across the front of the prospectise talking about how well the new company will do while the fact is it was going to buy, say, something like today's Enron stock, would be buried somewhere. Hence, the name "Red herring" came up. What I just said has nothing about the deer story, do not pay any attention to it. It is a true, but useless, fact.

Someone pointed out that a M-77 has a 6 groove bbl. If a $130 Ruger has 6 grooves, do you think a $210 Ithaca based on a SAKO action will have less? (Prices then). So, we are left with a BAR and a M-94. The Only positive proof will have to be that one has 4 lands and grooves. Laying up a 1:12 twist fired bullet .30-30 against a 1:10 with just a jacket availible is not good enough without a microscope or quality measuring tools.

Then we come to the logic of the day, which one has only four lands and grooves. This is a trival pursuit question for gun nuts. I am sure that many a dollar has changed hands when someone said "I'll bet that my $88 Winchester M-94 has more grooves that your expensive BAR."

If the wager had been "I'll bet my Marlin has more lands and grooves that your
(insert name of famous expensive rifle here), you would have figured it out as EVERYONE knows many Marlins have 16 of them.

I will give you the answer this way today:
I fired once, then Bill stepped out of the cabin of the truck. By then Terry was blasting away in front of the truck on its right which was barely on the two ruts we called a "farm road" in the field, 3000 feet from the nearest paved road. Bill moved to Terry's right and fired once, missing. By then Grace had gotten out of the truck and waited for hopefully husband-to-be to take a shot, (hey, they will still dating then,). When Bill missed, Grace took her single shot, missing. With the deer getting out of sight, Bill said to himself "hey, settle down, Terry ain't gonna hit it like that". So Bill took one more carefully aimed shot and the deer was then out of sight. We could not determine by any impact if it was even hit until we found the dead deer in the woods. By this account Bill has the best chance of being the one who hit it.

Also, that was then and is now. Today, hunters who see a giant deer while driving about on their farm might say that it is not fair chase and wait until the deer gets out of sight and then stalk it and track it. Deer were very scarce in Wisconsin back in 1973 when this really happened. The deer harvest hit 100,000 for the first time in 1962. Just elevan years prior. Harvest dropped below 100,000 several times in late 1960s. We were not going to let this one get away. To tell this story at the bar that night with the ending going "Yeah, we saw a big buck on the farm, but since we were in a truck and had not stalked up on it we all let it go". Everyone and I mean everyone would laughed at us until we left. It would have been them who would have said when they got home "mama, you are not going to believe what these "sportsmen hunters" did. They saw a giant deer and let it go because they had not been walking for at least twenty minutes before they got out of their truck."


Now read this VERY CAREFULLY.
^
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What I have just written is an interesting story but it is MEANLESS to solving the puzzle of who killed the deer. ALL OF IT IS A RED HERRING.

So, if you did not know, it is easy to look it up or call someone who has a BAR or a Win. M -94 an ask them to look down the bbl. The rifle that has only 4 grooves is the winner.

If one of the three people who have figured it out do not come forward, I'll just tell you tommorow, but it is a lot like buying a $5 novel, reading the last five pages and throwing it away because you know the end.
Ken

[thereisnospoon]

I have another headahce, a Red Herring headache!:banghead:

[Azrael256]

You should try white herring. Specifically, pickled in sour cream. mmm, good. The mustard kind isn't bad, but the sour cream is the best.

[Chipperman]

...sour cream is the best.

Oh, OK. The answer must be Bill then. Because he likes sour cream on his baked potato, and his BAR has four grooves.

[BigFatKen]

Chipperman is the first with both the shooter and right reason answer. He even knew Bill likes sour cream. Would have gotten a bonus if he guessed Bill and Grace can eat a pint on two baked potatoes.

If anyone thinks my last post was too long, I'm sorry. I was not doing what we called "road hunting" by 1970's standards and I did not like Camp David for the way he put it.

If anyone wants me to make them a site, I'll do it for free to get the practice.
See http://www.alabamabass.com/Mercer_Rentals for an example.

Ken

[BigFatKen]

From my first post. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=169480
This comment reminds me of the story of a man who, many years ago made a new telescope. He looked at Venus for a long time and only saw clouds. This was like Earth must have been in the time of the dinosours. Observation: clouds. Conclusion: dinosaurs.

This was a "hunting story", not a transcript from a Court case. I bring this up as hunting season is coming fast upon us. In this case, the truck was in two ruts in a hay field 3000 feet from a dirt road on which Wisconsin allowed hunting from in 1973. There was a disabled Serviceman, home on leave, in the truck with a valid State permit to shoot from the truck. I saw no need to clog the flow of the story with what I thought was irrelevant noise.

When the Serviceman shot the second time, the deer stumbled, as if wounded. That is when the others opened fire while standing in the field. The deer was 280 yards out, clearly out of range of the 30-30 user who shot nine times. A post mortem showed a wound to the front leg. Too low.



Originally Posted by BigFatKen
I stopped the truck, took up a sitting position and fired...


Not sure who killed deer but based on your description every one of you could be arrested for firing a rifle within the road right-of-way... most states have stiff rules preventing "road hunting"... Yeah I know...you were driving "through a field" but still, shooting from a truck is pretty pathetic!

This type of hurtful follow up post served no useful purpose and has stuck with me for almost a year now. It almost made me quit THR.

Obvervation: Man shoots from truck. Conclusion: pretty pathetic!

Let's try to be a little more gentlemanly here on THR !

[Wes Janson]

Forgive me for being stupid, but I still don't quite get the answer. Who was it, and why?

[Chipperman]

Wow, here's a blast from the past!

So, if you did not know, it is easy to look it up or call someone who has a BAR or a Win. M -94 an ask them to look down the bbl. The rifle that has only 4 grooves is the winner.


The recovered bullet had 4 rifling grooves. Only one of the guns being used could have made that pattern (The BAR).

['Card]

Am I the only guy here who gets BigFatKen and BigGayAl confused?

Hell, I made it almost all the way through this thread just being impressed - because I don't personally know any gay guys who enjoy deer hunting. :o

[Nio]

Terry emptied his Winchester M-94 .30-30 and also added three more for a total of nine shots. Grace fired her excellent Ithaca .308 with a palm swell grip, light trigger and 3x9 scope firing 150 gr pointed bullets. Larry fired his Uncle's .35 Rem auto loader. Bill shot several times with his nice Browning BAR .308 deer rilfe, also a 3x9 scope. The buck continued out of sight.

The only thing obvious to me is that some folks need more practice. That's a lot of ammo just to kill one critter... :what:

Nio