Best 10mm Ammo


PDA






Colt
December 6, 2005, 10:56 AM
I've performed a number of searches, and only found that 175-grain Silvertips are a popular choice in 10mm.

Can anyone recommend any other "full power" 10mm rounds that are currently in production? I'd like to get something in the 1200 fps range.

Up to this point, I'd been shooting Blazer 10mm loads. They're fine for outdoor/public ranges, but I've found that most of the indoor ranges in this area do not allow them. (I don't think they like the AL "brass" getting mixed in with the real brass.)

Along the same lines, I plan to beef up my Delta Elite to ensure the full loads don't give it a beating. (mine is the "modified" classic-style, with the metal removed along the left side of the frame guiderails, but not all the other enhanced Delta changes)

Any recommendations/thougths on the 22-lb spring and FL guiderod mod? Is Wolffe the way to go on these parts, or is there a better provider?

Thanks for any help.

If you enjoyed reading about "Best 10mm Ammo" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
agtman
December 6, 2005, 12:52 PM
Yes, you can get factory-loaded 10mm ammo in the high performance range.

Check out:

Double Tap - www.doubletapammo.com

Texas Ammo - www.texas-ammo.com

CorBon - www.corbon.com

Reed's Ammo & Research - www.reedsammo.com

Buffalo Bore - www.buffalobore.com

Power Strike Ammo - www.powerstrikeammo.com

Georgia Arms offers a very accurate 155gn Gold Dot HP @ 1375fps/651fpe. www.georgia-arms.com

Hornady still sells a 180gn 10mm XTP-HP @ 1180fps/556fpe, which nearly duplicates a 180gn 10mm load that ProLoad used to make.

While Winchester's 175gn STHP isn't bad (and availability is still pretty widespread), it's hardly a "full-power" load.

Though advertised as doing "1290fps" from a 5.5" factory test barrel, more recent chronograph data from real 10mm guns shows that it's doing more like 1150fps (from a 4.6" G20) or just under 1200fps (from a 5" Delta or S&W 1006), depending on whose stats you're looking at.

Also, many of the above-listed ammo-makers are topping their 10mm loads with the best of the current generation of 10mm HPs, like Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Noslers. XTPs, etc. The STHPs are, more or less, first or second generation, and while not bad, they don't represent even Winchester's latest bullet technology (i.e., SXTs).

Hope this helps. :)

Lennyjoe
December 6, 2005, 01:11 PM
Either that or you can get in to reloading for under $100. Then you could build all the full power 10MM rounds you want.

For powder look at 800X.

Colt
December 6, 2005, 05:19 PM
Agtman:

Thanks for the comprehensive response. I will visit the links you have provided. Should I worry about any of those loads in a stock Delta Elite? The 1375 fps Gold Dots sound nice, but, boy that's some power (and pressure).

Lennyjoe:

I've read that 40S&W is more difficult to properly reload than some other calibers. Do you happen to know if 10mm is "harder" as well?

Edited: I guess "less forgiving" would be a better term than "harder to reload"

MTMilitiaman
December 6, 2005, 06:22 PM
Yeah Double Tap Ammunition is the shiz-net... very good stuff. I keep their 180 gr Gold Dot load in my Glock 20 for social encounters and practice with their 180 gr FMJ Match load.

That said, I have carried the 175 gr Silvertips and didn't feel undergunned. It's still a lot of firepower for an automatic handgun--I just feel the 10mm Auto can do better.

Lennyjoe
December 6, 2005, 06:59 PM
Do you happen to know if 10mm is "harder" as well
Don't know for sure since I have never reloaded for the .40 cal. But there is more case room to work with for the 10MM.

agtman
December 6, 2005, 07:19 PM
Colt:

Before it was customized, I shot my stock Delta using a FLGR, a shok buff, and either a 22lb or 24lb Wolff recoil spring (also used a stronger Wolff f.p. spring). It ran fine.

Even after the custom work, I still use, for most loads, the 22lb spring and a buff. If I'll be firing 200+ rds of only the full-power 10mm stuff - like, say, the 200gn loads @ 1250fps+ from Texas Ammo or Double Tap - then I'll go with the 24lb spring.

These links might help with ideas if you later decide to have work done on yours:

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id4.html

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id5.html

There are a lot of very nicely customized DEs out there, some with just minimalist touches to enhance user-friendliness, while others have received more extensive work.

You might want to do a Search on the various boards for this information. Pistolsmith.com has seen a fair number of Delta-related postings.

MachIVshooter
December 7, 2005, 02:27 AM
Agtman:

I've read that 40S&W is more difficult to properly reload than some other calibers. Do you happen to know if 10mm is "harder" as well?



Many .40 S&W pistols begin to cycle earlier, leaving the rear of the case head unsupported and it may bulge a bit. Sizing dies do not go down far enough. So you can end up with loads that stop the slide from going into battery. We figured this out on a friends Hi-Power. The cost: a pair of $70 grip panels that were shattered when the case head ruptured due to firing out of battery. OTOH, I've had no trouble with reloads in my S&W 4006 and the G-22 I had ate 'em OK too.

IMO, the 10mm is a very forgiving round to reload. You really can't get enough powder in to overcharge it (except for IMR 800x; be careful with this nuclear stuff:evil: ). 10mm has a very thick case head, so it isn't likely to bulge; on that note, no 10mm I'm aware of has anything less than a fully supported chamber. Only thing is, it's a long cartridge and the bullets must be deeply seated in most pistols. Also, all bullets are of truncated cone shape. Feeding problems can result from it's long, squared-off shape, but can usually be remedied by a very strong taper crimp.

The 10mm is an awesome round and a reloaders dream. Have fun!

Lennyjoe
December 7, 2005, 09:35 AM
except for IMR 800x; be careful with this nuclear stuff
Ah, I see another 10MM reloader has had experience with this powder.;)

I have split cases and stretched them pretty bad with 800X. Believe me when I say don't push the max on this powder. Good thing it was out of a S&W 1006.

jc2
December 10, 2005, 09:03 AM
Here is a good analysis of some of the top 10mm loads. It looks like the best choice is still the Winchester Silvertip. It outperforms all the the newer "thermonuclear" loads by the various ammo boutiques (no big surprise--Winchester has had years to get it right and the 175-grain Silvertip is designed for the 10mm--not the .40 S&W).
In properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin using the 4 layer 14oz denim heavy cloth IWBA/FBI standard protocols.

The following products provide improved performance over all of the best in class 9mm and .40S&W loadings:

Winchester 175gr 10mm Silvertip[/B]
125gr Winchester 9x23mm ST
140gr .357 Magnum Winchester Silvertip
230gr Winchester Ranger RA45T+P
Federal 230gr .45acp HST

Slightly smaller diameter/depth cavity sizes are created by the following loadings:

DoubleTap, ProLoad, and Georgia Arms 180gr and 155gr 10mm loadings
Remington, ProLoad, and Georgia Arms 185gr .45acp +P jhp

10mm Loadings with greater overall penetration depths but equal diameter temporal and permanent stretch cavities to the better 9mm and .40S&W loadings are:

DoubleTap 10mm XTP
Hornandy 10mm XTP
PMC 170gr jhp
Remington 180gr jhp
Federal 180gr jhp

Source: WT, Ammo Lab (David DiFabio)
If you're serious about defence, it's looks like the 175-grain Silvertip is the best way go. If you're looking at hunting, probably the Hornady (or one of the boutique) 180-grain loads might be the best way to go. It looks like the XTP outperforms the Gold Dot in 10mm (again, no big surprise), but if you're just looking for a good all-round carry load that can do for defence or dropping a careless whitetail, the Silvertip is the clear choice.

waffentomas
December 10, 2005, 01:45 PM
I think the posts on 800x need a bit of clarification.

This is a GREAT powder to use for the 10mm, best I've ever used in 20 years of reloading for the 10mm. The only drawback is is doesn't meter all that well. It is a low pressure powder that is VERY forgiving.

Overload any powder and stuff starts breaking, but I've loaded up 135gr and had velocities of over 1600fps, and 200gr bullets at 1250 and never tore up any brass (or pistol). I've even loaded them hotter than that, long loaded them, and fired them out of my 5" 610 with no issues. I'm using brass that is over 8 years old, and loaded 20+times, and it's still going, and these are mixed headstamps (PMC is the toughest brass I've ever used in any caliber)

This is no flame on you Lenny, or you MachIV, I just have never had a bad experience with this powder, even with hot loads. It's been easier to ruin cases, in my experience, with AA#7, AA#9, Power Pistol, Longshot, and others. These have flattened primers a lot sooner then 800x ever did.

If you guys have had issues, give me some details, because maybe I've just been lucky, or haven't pushed things as hard as you with this powder.

That's my 2 cents. Not trying to offend anyone, just presenting a positive viewpoint of 800x. It's as close to moron proof as any powder I've used.

Tom

atblis
December 10, 2005, 04:06 PM
I am not sure you can put enough 800x in a case to blow it up. It seems to just make the muzzle flash larger once you get past a point.

warriorsociologist
December 10, 2005, 04:28 PM
Yep. 800x fan here...but metering is a pain. I am a little OCD when it comes to reloading, so I usually weigh most/all of my 800x charges anyway. I'm hoping to get a electric powder drop/scale combo someday to speed up my obsessiveness.

Also, while I know you (the OP) are looking for info pertaining to your DE, I want to note to others who own Glocks (20 & 29) that it'd be a good idea for them to consider an aftermarket barrel if they plan to reload (better case-head support at the 6 o'clock position). My personal experience is limited to Glock and S&W 10mms. I have found the S&W 10xx series pistols generally have have pretty good case-head support (4 pistols tried) and the S&W 610 offers great (full) support. I'm not sure about other pistols & revolvers (various 1911 platforms, the Witness, Ruger Buckeye, and oddball others). That said, the OEM Glock barrels are fine if you are willing to accept shorter brass "life" (fewer reloads), or if you don't plan on shooting your reloads in pistols with tighter chambers than Glocks generally have (otherwise they can stick/FTE).

Finally Colt, some of the opinions that are being discussed above have recently been hashed out in a different thread (and then locked by a Moderator). We don't need to get into that mess again here on this (your) thread, but it's worth looking for, and then reading the thread I'm referring to (I'm sending you the link via PM) before taking some of the info given above too seriously. YMMV.
- C

jc2
December 10, 2005, 06:43 PM
Here's a link to a thread over on WT. Open the attachment--it contains pictures of some 10mm bullets (two W-W 175-grain Silvertips, one PMC 170-grain JHP and one Double Tap 180-grain Gold Dot) recovered from feral dogs the poster (a moderator) shot. A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showpost.php?p=130380&postcount=1

warriorsociologist
December 10, 2005, 07:33 PM
FYI jc2,
I can't see the picture because it's asking me to register. Can you link it directly or upload it here? Did the author compare where each shot passed through the animal (e..g., what each hit)? Even though I haven't seen this picture, I must say & agree that the GDHP really isn't the load one would normally want on a wild hog. GDHP are made for thinner skinned critters (well, like humans). In humans, GDHPs are known to mushroom violently (as they should), but remaining togeather after contacting heavy bone & the virtual "armor" on the sides/ribs of a boar is not what they were made to do. Hunting loads for the 10mm (especially for hogs) should ideally consist of thickly jacketed JHPs (180gr - 200gr. XTP), JSPs (Corbon's 180gr JSP that I think is out of production - my old favorite (& I still have 100 or so)), or hardcasts (100gr Beartooth WFN and others). That said, I've seen a couple reports of GDHPs (and possibly GSHPs...I'll have to check) being used to successfully harvest whitetails, but it's really not the best bullet choice. Keep these for SD. FWIW Colt, here's a few 10mm hunting related links from "the10ring" on GT and 10mmTalk (sorry, no recovered bullets pics - probably since most of these represent whitetail deer kills & the shots were mostly pass-throughs):

whitetail (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=459830&highlight=hunt+bullet)

whitetail (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453583&highlight=whitetail)

another whitetail (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=460126&highlight=hunt)

and another... (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=464580&highlight=whitetail)

and another... (http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=3527&hl=recovered)

a "conceptual" whitetail thread wth yours truely chiming in... (http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=270&hl=whitetail)

more whitetail... (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=459830&highlight=hunt+bullet)

...a general DT ammo info article (4.6" Glock barrel) (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336612&highlight=recovered)

...the recent Gunblast (Jeff Quinn) article on the 10mm (though, mostly on the Glock 20) (http://www.gunblast.com/Glock20.htm)

...a random (but a few years old) gun rag article w/ some 10mm ammo info you might like. (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/skelton_0304/)

...and finally a forum dedicated to 10mm ammo (http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showforum=7)

So, I guess your answer to "What's the best 10mm ammo" question depends on what you plan on doing with it. :) That said, it's my opinion that you won't go wrong with any 165-200gr JHP for woods-to-city carry....but if you are specifically intending to hunt with it, it's probably advisable to choose a bullet specifically meant for hunting. FWIW, my personal carry preference has been Doubletap's 165gr GDHP...but I hunt with 200gr XTPs or WFN. Lately I have been considering moving "up" to a heavier carry bullet like a 180gr GDHP, but only time will tell.

Hey jc2, did you want some of my 190gr Fed JHP stash (I know you like this round)? I don't have enough to rotate through as a regular "shoot and carry load," but if you want some for old time's sake, let me know & maybe we can work something out.

jc2
December 10, 2005, 09:22 PM
Here's the link to the entire thread. Maybe it will work better. If not, registration is free, and the thread is worth reading. The picture of the recovered bullets are attached to the first post.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?p=130469#post130469

Here's a link to the picture. The bullets are: Silvertip, Silvertip, PMC, DT Gold Dot (left to right):

http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=986&d=1134245085

BTW, the bullets were recovered from feral DOGS not HOGS.

I've shot a few whitetail with a handgun so it's a little more than "conceptual" for me. The .357 Magnum 180-grain Winchester Partition Gold has always worked like a champ for me. It's relatively "low-power" compared to the hot 10mm loads, but the Partition Gold bullet is head and shoulders above bullet available in 10mm.

The Gold Dot figures McNett published in the thread you describe as a "General DT Info Article" need to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Mike might be a good load developer, but he is a babe in the woods when it comes to ballistic testing. There have been some posts questioning/discussing Mike's "results" on Glock Talk (including the thread to which you linked) by some very knowledgable/experienced ballistic testers (like David DiFabio), but they have all disappeared. It probably has something to do with Mike being a moderator and a major contributor to Glock Talk.

I don't really have a personal need for (or see much use for) "full-power" loads. I don't think they add that much (if any) to the 10mm's performance, and they do have their drawbacks. If I felt the need for "full-power" ammunition (something more than Silvertips), I would go with the Texas Ammunition Company's 180-grain XTP load. They've been at it a lot longer than Double Tap and are good people.

Lennyjoe
December 10, 2005, 10:34 PM
This is no flame on you Lenny, or you MachIV, I just have never had a bad experience with this powder
No problems. I understand.

I also understand that when I went to a certain level of 800X and CCI mag primers under 180gr XTP's the load started splitting and stretching brand spankin new Starline brass. Wish I had the pictures but I dumped them about 6 months ago. Maybe my 1006 chamber is getting a bit worn out.

The powder does meter like crap so I weigh every charge on a RCBS
5-0-5 scale. I haven't tried it in the Lee autodisc.

Did a thread in the reloading section on which loads and powder charges split the brass.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=135161&highlight=800X

warriorsociologist
December 10, 2005, 11:40 PM
jc2, as I said in my post, I too have shot a fair number of whitetails with my .357 and a couple now with my 10mm. The "conceptual" verbiage referred only to the fact I was relaying on a few of my experiences in that thread & I didn't have pictures of the recovered bullets or statistics to speak of...take a look again t my post on that thread.

I'll take a look at that thread you mentioned when I get a chance - sorry I was reading quickly and thought you said hogs (most of the 10mm "hunting" stories I have read deal with deer, hogs, and the occasional (and rare) black bear). I'm glad you mentioned the 180gr Win Partition .357 mag. load. I really liked that load & used it frequently when I hunted with factory loads in my .357. It was especially nice since I could buy it locally and I could find the component bullets easily enough to roll my own. That partition handgun bullet is a really nice hunting bullet (too bad they don’t make a .40/10mm one).

I am a little confused by this part of your post:

I don't really have a personal need for (or see much use for) "full-power" loads. I don't think they add that much (if any) to the 10mm's performance and they do have their drawbacks. If I felt the need for "full-power" ammunition (something more than Silvertips), I would go with the Texas Ammunition Company's 180-grain XTP load. They've been at it a lot longer than Double Tap and are good people.

I hesitate to ask you to clarify this since the last attempts to do so resulted in such a mess. That said, perhaps you could still try to explain why "full-power" loads don't add much to the 10mm's performance? This seems to be a logical contradiction. Are you referring to only use on humans? I can sort of see how you might be suggesting that overpenitration of hotter rounds would negate any benefits they might have…but as a hunting round, it seems obvious that a “full power” 10mm round, loaded with the right bullet, would certainly have a performance advantage on game. Also, exactly how are the Texas Ammo folks "better people" than Mike McNett (Doubletap)? I’m not sure ho to take this statement other than to guess that there might be some personal history between you and one or both of them that goes beyond their product lines? It seems that if both companies are pushing the same bullets at roughly the same speed, either should be good. To be fair, Mike's loads have earned a faithful following because they have been proven to work well by a number of people...of course the same can be said about TA's loads. I guess I keep asking you to clarify these things because I just can't understand why you seem to have such an aversion to DT's products. Mike has been making and selling his products long enough to deserve a little more benifit of the doubt in my opinon. Heck, I remember when I bought the "1,000,000th round" he sold about a year ago now. To doubt him and his products so completely seems sort of irrational...unless of course you have had some experiences that I haven't heard yet that caused you to feel this way. If you can clarify this a bit for me and the OP here (since he’s probably wondering the same thing as he’s trying to decide where to spend his money), I'd sincerely appreciate it.

Finally, I take it you aren't interested in any of the ammo I have been offering to you? My offer still stands if you do want it. I'm sure you have guessed this by now....but if not, the reason I haven’t given up and instead I persist in offering it to you is that I hope you view my doing so as a show of “good faith" on my part. I would very much prefer that we actually resolve this “clarification” issue that has plagued recent discussions of 10mm ammo/platforms where you have been involved. I sincerely hope that we can solve this (once and for all...well, at least for a while) in a reasonable and “adult” manner for the good of all the readers here.

- Chris

warriorsociologist
December 11, 2005, 12:21 AM
jc2, I just registered and looked at the pic & thread. I'm not surprized at all by the results...though I am not sure what "1000 words" the picture is supposed to replace. The 180gr GDHP wasn't mushroomed as large as the others (170gr PMC Starfie & 175gr STHP), but without seeing the wound channels each made and such, it's hard to determine which was more effective. It looked to me that it's petals had sheared off and were probably still in the animal...or were blown out of what was probably a gruesome exit wound. (BTW, as a side note, it was also good to be reminded of the PMC 170gr starfire round.) What I did notice was that the author said that virtually every "service load" he used (including 9mm, .40, and .45 loads) worked about equally well on the dogs. So, I guess that if a quality 9mm round was enough to make the feral dogs "dead right now," I'm not at all surprized they didn't get "deader" when shot with a .40, .45, or 10mm. Ironically, the sig line belonging to the guy who posted that picture reads: "Expansion is fine. Penetration is final." That sounds like a 10mm (or .357 mag) commercial to me. ;)

turbonatr
December 11, 2005, 01:22 AM
Hello,

I am the author of that thread on WarriorTalk.com. Good to see you here warriorsociologist. :)

I actually posted this on 10mmtalk.com as well. The questions you asked here were actually asked over at 10mmTalk as well. Instead of retyping, here is a quick cop&paste of the details on each load used.

One PMC bullet fully penetration front to back, the second nearly made it the length of the animal. This came as no surprise as this bullet tends to fully penetrate 18" gelatin blocks. The second bullet expanded nicely. Good load if you want a deeper penetrating load with low recoil (but it does have muzzle flash).

The DT Gold Dot went around 18-20" due to over expansion. Petals folded back and under the base of the bullet. This load had the smallest recovered diameter. The bullet is very distorted for a Gold Dot. The typical uniform and textbook expansion is not evident with this load in my experience. Point of note, this same bullet loaded in a .40S&W case and averaging 1008fps from my old G23 (factory Speer 180gr. Gold Dot load) had expanded diameters over .80" and were nearly the size of a quarter. I posted pics of recovered .40S&W 180gr. Gold Dots a few years back on GlockTalk, but these threads have been purged from the system as well as some 9mm and .45acp pics I had. This bullet definately seems to perform better at .40S&W velocities. While the bullet did not out-right fail, it didn't do as well as it did 340fps slower. Speer techs report 1300fps is within the operating window for this particular bullet and while it may not completely fail, it's obvious it does not perform optimally.

The Silvertips went 14-16" and had the largest recovered diameters of around .75" or so. They appear to have shed very little if any of their original weight. Very uniform and consistent expansion. This load averages around 1200fps or so from my G20 and around 1250fps from my 5" Delta Elite. 1300fps is capable from my 6.5" S&W 610. This has always been a very reliable performer for me and is my carry load of choice. For an often called "outdated design", it certainly seems to hold its own. There is something to be said about a bullet that is driven to its originally intended velocity.

All bullets broke various bones; shoulders and ribs. Even so, the feral dogs did not drop in their tracks. They ran, broken shoulders be damned. Sometimes they drop, sometimes they don't. I have had specatular kills with subsonic 9mm JHPs and disappointing failures with 10mms and .45s (and vice versa, of course). After all, handguns are handguns, not rifles. Distance from the dogs was within 25 yards (well within mostly). They typically don't run further than 50 yards with proper shot placement. The reason I shoot them front to back is because broadside shots nearly always result in complete penetration and lost bullets. After losing many bullets and not being able to learn anything from it, I started to shoot front to back to better my chances of keeping the bullets from exiting.

The bottom line is carry what you wish, but don't fool yourself into thinking your 700+ft/lb carry load will drop and attacker like a lightning bolt. The ability to place your shots accurately and as quickly as possible is far more important. Ever since I actually started to shoot live animals with my service-size pistols, my priorities have changed and I have learned quite a bit.

Hope that helps a bit. One thing I should mention is the PMC load I used is NOT their Starfire load. That is a completely different design and is a 180gr. load from PMC's Gold Line.. The load used above is their 170gr. JHP found in PMC's Bronze Line.

warriorsociologist
December 11, 2005, 11:11 AM
Hey Turbo! Good to see you too. Thanks for the PMC clarification. Have you ever tried their SF round? I think I still have some saved pages from when you and a few others posted some very informative pictures on GT a while ago (I'm "rigormootis" on GT by the way). I think I remember being very impressed by the SF and then disappointed when I couldn’t find component bullets to try in some handloads. The recovered PMC bullet you showed looked quite impressive so I ASSumed it was a SF. Oops, my bust.

Anyway, thanks for the cut & paste. Based on your results and the results of some others we have seen, it seems to suggest the GDHP may not be the best choice for “full-power” 10mm. Of course one of the advantages of the 10mm is velocity and it’s ability to harness this velocity when using the correct bullet design to give it the ability to produce deep penetration (through barriers, bone, and tissue) and good expansion…all in a hi-capacity autoloader (vs. a 6-gun). But, if the bullets loaded in it can't hold together, than better bullets should be chosen. Jc2, this is where I see you have a valid point with respect to the 10mm being loaded at “less than full-power” has an advantage. But, this “truth” only seems to hold with bullets that fail at “full-power velocities.” The PMC and ST loads Turbonatr fired show the 10mm can produce good results if the proper bullet is chosen. Remember , the great thing about the 10mm is that it can be loaded with a variety of loads for different purposes ranging from target, to SD, to hunting (like the .357 mag, .41 mag, .44mg, .45 colt, etc. if you will). Not only that, it's one of the handful of autoloader cartridges that can truely make this claim. I remember when I saw all those old pictures on GT (I too wish they were still available to the general public – but I’m not going to throw around conspiracy-theory accusations to explain their absence), I made the choice then to carry the 165gr GSHPs over the heavier and lighter versions, and over the GDHPs for SD. Tests like yours show that the GDHP may be very well suited to lower velocity loads (like the 180gr .40 S&W or Speer's 135gr +p .38 spec SB load for 2 examples), but the shortcomings of this particular bullet isn't an indictment of the 10mm itself (and of course you didn't imply it was).

I'm continually impressed by the performance of the aged 175gr STHP. But even it isn’t “perfect”. Do you still have any photos of the "failed" STHPs from GT? I think I remember seeing a number of recovered silvertips that were shown after going through denim-covered ballistic gelatin. The hollow cavities were clogged by the denim and they failed to expand. Does this ring any bells? Also, do you have any recovered XTPs (of any weight) from dogs, deer, or other? I wonder how the lighter 155gr XTP performs on dogs? I’ve never shot anything under a 180gr XTP (180gr in my .357 and 200gr in my 10mm). I wonder how the 155 grainers would hold up at the high velocity after hitting a 90 - 150lb animal. Of course, if anyone else has pics, I’d be interested.

waffentomas
December 11, 2005, 11:24 AM
I have to get the pics posted on my site, but my experience with the Gold Dots is the same as turbonatr- i.e., at the hotter 10mm velocities, they don't seem to perform as well.

It makes sense, really, as the bullet manufactures don't really make their bullets for the 10mm (their are a few exceptions, of course, like the 200gr Black Talon, Hornady 200gr XTP), they make them for the .40.

tom

warriorsociologist
December 11, 2005, 11:45 AM
I have to get the pics posted on my site, but my experience with the Gold Dots is the same as turbonatr- i.e., at the hotter 10mm velocities, they don't seem to perform as well.

It makes sense, really, as the bullet manufactures don't really make their bullets for the 10mm (their are a few exceptions, of course, like the 200gr Black Talon, Hornady 200gr XTP), they make them for the .40.

tom



Yes, please do. :)


- Great article btw. I remember reading that a while ago, but thanks for bringing it back up.

turbonatr
December 11, 2005, 12:46 PM
I don't think I have ever had a problem with Silvertips clogging. In fact, if they were going to do so, I would think they would clog on the thick winter coats of these feral dogs. I have heard they aren't the best against intermediate barriers, but then again the ones I have recovered seemed to have retained quite a bit of their original weight, even after hitting bone.

I have not tried the full-power 180gr. XTP but I do have some full-power 200gr. XTPs on hand. I suspect they will fully penetrate feral dogs, but it's worth a shot. I personally won't use the lighter loads for hunting purposes such the the 155gr. and 165gr. loads in any bullet form. I would not take a chance of using a load that may underpenetrate after hitting bone, etc. Self defense against humans, fine...but not in a hunting role. YMMV, of course.

The 180gr. Gold Dot full-power loads seem to do OK in gelatin testing, but gelatin blocks are not live animals. Some people use gelatin testing to decide on a carry load, other use results from their experience in the field. I tend to take the info that both testing forms offer to make a decision. The results I get with the full-power 180gr. Gold Dot loads are pretty consistent in that they don't perform as well as they do when loaded a couple hundred FPS slower. While the Speer techs are right that the bullet will probably not fail at 1300fps, they definately do not perfrom the best they can either. In fact, even the Georgia Arms and ProLoad 180gr. Gold Dot loads usually give smaller overall recovered diameters than the subsonic .40S&W loads. The GA and PL factory loads pushed the 180gr. Gold Dot to 1150fps and 1200fps respectively. Again, they won't fail, but they won't give you their best possible performance either. This is not a fault of the 180gr. Gold Dot bullet itself, of course. It is, in fact, a great bullet. It does perform adequately at these 10mm velocities. What you have to decide as the person trusting them with your life is if the added recoil, blast and wear are worth terminal performance that is lacking compared to the same bullet 200fps or so slower? If so, great. By all means carry it. IMHO, it's not worth it. The Silvertip, in my experience, out-performs the full-power 180gr. Gold Dot loads while offering lower recoil, blast and wear. it's a win-win situation. Texas Ammo used to use the Gold Dot bullet in their full-power 10mm line of ammo. They have sinced stopped using the Gold Dot and switched to the XTP. They apparently were happier with the XTPs performance compared to the Gold Dot.

There is a company that offers 10mm ammo that lies somewhere between .40S&W velocities and the loads that DT and Buffalo Bore offer. www.reedsammo.com. In fact, their 165gr. Golden Sabre load had a velocity variation of 1fps (yes, one foot per second, that's not a typo). Ron is a great guy to do business with and has a complete line of 10mm ammo. He will even custom tailor a load to your specs. I just ordered his 175gr. Silvertips to test. When I get a chance to pop some feral dogs with his load, I will report back.

MachIVshooter
December 11, 2005, 01:32 PM
This is no flame on you Lenny, or you MachIV, I just have never had a bad experience with this powder, even with hot loads. It's been easier to ruin cases, in my experience, with AA#7, AA#9, Power Pistol, Longshot, and others. These have flattened primers a lot sooner then 800x ever did.

If you guys have had issues, give me some details, because maybe I've just been lucky, or haven't pushed things as hard as you with this powder.

That's my 2 cents. Not trying to offend anyone, just presenting a positive viewpoint of 800x. It's as close to moron proof as any powder I've used.

Tom

I can't say I've ever had a bad experience using 800x, just that since I do not own a strain gauge, I have to judge pressure based on velocity and visible signs on the case. I say 800x is "nuclear" because it takes less powder to achieve much higher velocities when compared to Blue Dot, etc. Using 180 grain pills, I have run 13 grains of BD for velocities in the low-to-mid 1300's. 10.8 grains of 800x w/CCI 350's gives me 1406 FPS/avg. from 5" guns. I have never split cases or anything, but it seems to me I should probably be happy with 800 ft/lbs from a service-size auto and not push my luck.

For those who are qustioning the performance of JHP bullets in 10mm, I have had excellent results from the 180 grain Remington Gold Sabres.

warriorsociologist
December 11, 2005, 01:46 PM
Thanks. As I said, I am using DT's 165gr GSHPs now, but I'll order some of Reeds' to try out. I fully agree with you (Turbonatr) about light 10mm bullets & hunting - I might try a 180gr., but only if I had to. For me, 180gr bullets for the .357 and 200gr. for the 10mm when hunting. Hmmm...I might have to revisit the 180gr. GSHP again (not for hunting, but for carry).

turbonatr
December 11, 2005, 02:27 PM
IIRC, AmmoLab tested the DT 180gr. Golden Sabres in 10% calibrated ballistic gelatin and every one exited their 18" gelatin blocks. They were supposed to retest this load using their 26" blocks used for rifle ammunition, but I don't know if they got around to it. I have not personally tested the DT 180gr. GS on animals and I probably won't. It is similar to the GD in that it was originally intended for .40S&W velocities.

In my experience, the bullet that works best at maximum 10mm velocities is the XTP (remember, the ST isn't at maximum 10mm velocity, but it is at the optimum velocity for this particular bullet). As posted, Texas Ammo must have had the same experience since they dropped the Gold Dot in favor of the XTP. The GD and GS are controlled expansion JHPs and the XTP is a delayed expansion JHP. As you can see from the GD picture, controlled expansion JHPs tend to over-expand folding their petals under the base of the bullet. Delayed expansion JHPs tend to take high-velocites better since they don't being to expand nearly as quickly. They (controlled expansion JHPs) look pretty after being recovered from gelatin blocks as can be seen on various manufacturers websites. Bullets recovered from animals (and humans for that matter) tend to look less than perfect. Kind of like those fast-food ads where the meals look like a fine artist rendering, but when you get to the place and order the same thing it looks like slop on a plate.;) As stated, though, since the ST works very, very well as is with it's modest recoil and blast, I don't feel the need to go to a harder kicking load that probably won't as work as good as the ST anyway.

If I used the 10mm for hunting, I would use a heavy XTP. For larger game, such as bear, I wouldn't use the 10mm at all. For reliable penetration, a non-expanding hard cast is a must and there just isn't any point, IMHO, in using a .400" bullet when you can use a .451" hard cast which is going to be heavier and penetrate more reliably. I use my big bore revolvers for the big critters. Also, in my experience, bullet weight is more important than velocity with regards to reliable penetration. So, I'll take a 260gr. hard cast 45 Colt at 1000fps over a 200gr. hard cast at 1400fps. In my experience, the heavier and slower slugs work better than lighter and faster ones when penetration is a must.

Of course, use whatever you like best. I am not here to try to change anyones minds, just sharing what I have found to work. :)

jc2
December 11, 2005, 02:33 PM
Chris –

I am not interested in purchasing any of your Federal 190-grain JHPs, but I appreciate the offer. I pretty much have retired the 10mm in favour of the .357 Magnum (actually retired my autoloaders in favour of my revolvers). I am sitting on a little over a half of case of Silvertips so, on more than I am shooting it nowadays, I am pretty good shape when it comes to 10mm ammo.

I think Turbonatr has pretty well answered your questions concerning DT’s Gold Dot loads.

As to the whole “max-load” issue, I don’t see going to max loads (except maybe for the flat-pointed, non-expanding bullets) adds to the performance of the bullet but do detract from shootability and being harder on the handgun. I learned long ago not to measure performance merely by MV/ME. Max loads certainly do not add anything at all to the 10mm when it comes to LE/defence uses, but they do impose penalties in terms of shootability, unnecessary wear and tear on the weapon and added training/practice time to maintain proficiency. In a broader view, my experience is the best loads (which includes accuracy considerations) in any caliber (handgun or long gun) are very seldom the “maximum loads.” Optimum performance seems to be obtained short of max-loads—I consider the 175-grain Silvertip a “near-max” load, and its performance speaks for itself.

You are reading far too much into my statement that the folks at Texas Ammo are “good people.” I do think Mike through his sycophants has brought an element of rancour to any attempted discussion of 10mm on the internet (witness the last thread in which we were involved, your initial post in this thread, and possibly your “prickly” tone and “better people” comment your last post to me). If anyone dares make a remark less the than abjectly adulatory remark about DT, the wrath of his disciples is soon to follow.

I am a little confused with your remarks about giving Double Tap the “benefit of the doubt.” His test results need to be verified by independent, professional testers (DiFabio, Roberts, etc.). Before I am willing to bet my life and limb on any load—not just McNett’s (about which I do harbour some strong doubts based on familiarity with how Gold Dots actually work)—I want to see independent test results and have some idea of how the load is actually performing. When it comes to life and limb, it seems somewhat irrational to me to go out buy what is essentially a new, untested and untried product when there are products available that have long history of good performance (and with which I have first-hand experience). As for your concerns with the original poster, I provided hard data in my first two posts within this thread that he can accept and use to make a final decision or ignore.

agtman
December 11, 2005, 02:36 PM
Below is a link to an early review of DT's 10mm loads topped with Remington's Golden Saber 165gn & 180gn HPs.

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id6.html

Ammo Lab (AL) tested DT's GS loads in ballistic gel, along with the 135gn Nosler load. As posted in comments on GT's 10Ring, AL was particularly impressed with the expansion in gel of the 165gn load (@ 1425fps/744fpe). AL also liked the 135gn Nosler load. FWIW, the 165gn GS has proven very accurate in my G20 and S&W 1006.

The GSs are a tougher bullet than the GDs, being designed for penetration first, then expansion, as Remington explicitly states. That same design parameter, incidentally, was behind Hornady's development of its 10mm XTP-HP, which occurred about the same time the Bureau adopted the cartridge (late 80s, early 90s). Penetrative ability was then the primary concern for a HP bullet intended for LE use, which the XTP was.

It's a highly promoted internet myth that the 10mm XTP was originally designed for use as a "hunting" bullet. It may serve that role well, but Hornady's primary design goal was for "Xtreme Terminal Performance" against armed human assailants - hence the name.

For those troubled with the desirability of penetration preceding expansion in a bullet intended for "service caliber" use, and why that's a "good thing," and why the bugaboo of "overpenetration" is overhyped, you might want to review SA Urey Patrick's monograph on "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" (especially pertinent is his analysis under "Ammunition Selection Criteria").

www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

It's also a commonly-stated fallacy that the "only" HP bullet ever designed for hot 10mm loads was Winchester's STHP. :rolleyes:

The ubiquitous FMJ slugs and Norma's own hard-edged JHP aside, the 10mm XTP-HP was produced in such weights as 200gns (@ 1150fps), 180gns (@ 1200fps), 170gns (@1350fps) and 155gns (@ 1410fps).

And, as indicated, the XTP was in fact loaded at the hotter 10mm velocites of that time period (and this was back in the day when even the SilverTips were actually loaded closer to their claimed "box-flap" velocity of "1290fps." :scrutiny: ).

Other specific 10mm HPs developed back then included a PMC "Starfire" 170gn JHP (@ 1300fps); Federal's 180gn Hydra-Shok; Remington's 170gn HP (@ 1340fps) & 180gn HP (@1240fps); Corbon's 180gn HP (@1178fps) and 155gn HP (@1300fps); and a Black Hills 155gn JHP (@1300fps).

None of these, or the XTP, were designed first as ".40S&W" bullets, as some claim. Even now, when buying HP bullets for reloading, you'll find the box typically labelled "10mm/.40cal," thereby signalling the manufacturer's acknowledgment that its HPs are suitable for use at 10mm velocities.

If any bullet-maker truly believed that its .40-diameter HP (of whatever weight) would disintegrate when loaded at or near "full-power" 10mm speeds, or that it was otherwise unsuitable for use as a 10mm projectile, the maker would clearly say so in conspicuous language on the box (e.g., "Not intended for the 10mm AUTO. Use only in .40S&W reloading. See manual for safe velocities"). But how many times have you seen that? :scrutiny:

Actual experience with the newer GSs, Gold Dots and Noslers, as well as the bullet-maker's own statements about the true "velocity window" of these HPs (a rather expansive one), indicates that they're unlikely to perform appreciably worse in a high-performance 10mm load (as often claimed) than at a .40-level speed. But in addition to the extra penetrative benefit against intermediate barriers (my interest), the 10mm's higher velocity drives the projectile's expansion in "iffy" situations, where unpredictable factors may exist (e.g., distance, odd shooting angles; heavy winter clothing, etc).

If, however, you still feel that a "tougher" HP than the Gold Dots is warranted for real 10mm velocities, then consider those high-performance 10mm loads using the Golden Sabers or XTPs.

turbonatr
December 11, 2005, 02:45 PM
While Winchester's 175gn STHP isn't bad (and availability is still pretty widespread), it's hardly a "full-power" load.

Though advertised as doing "1290fps" from a 5.5" factory test barrel, more recent chronograph data from real 10mm guns shows that it's doing more like 1150fps (from a 4.6" G20) or just under 1200fps (from a 5" Delta or S&W 1006), depending on whose stats you're looking at.



It was never intended to be a "full-power" load. It is offered by Winchester at the velocty in which it works best (and, in fact, it works better than the "full-power" loads in my experience). Not sure when the last time you chronographed the STwas , but recent lots are much closer to their advertised velocity than I have seen you "report". The current lot I have averaged about 1200fps from my G20, around 1250fps from my 5" Delta Elite and 1300fps from my 6.5" 610. For all intents and purposes, this is right on the money with Winchester's advertised velocity. I do agree with you that is a fairly "wisespread" load, especially for a 10mm factory load. Personally, I find this makes the Winchester Silvertip and even better option for the 10mm shooter since my experience on live animals shows the "slower, out-dated" Silvertip to be the better of the available 10mm JHP loads.

Of course, if you prefer the lesser performing loads in terms of terminal ballistics simple because they are "full-power", by all means have at it. I tend to judge a load by how it performs on-target, not over a chronograph. I don't assume simply because one load is faster than another it is automatically a "better performing" load. I guess that's the beauty of the 10mm. There is something for everyone no matter what your taste is. :cool:

turbonatr
December 11, 2005, 02:56 PM
Actual experience with the newer GSs, Gold Dots and Noslers, as well as the bullet-maker's own statements about the true "velocity window" of these HPs (a rather expansive one), indicates that they're unlikely to perform appreciably worse in a high-performance 10mm load than at a .40-level speed.

I don't think anyone is saying the bullets will perform appreciably worse, I know I certainly have not. I think the point trying to be made is they won't perform appreciably better like some people try to pass of maximum velocity 10mm ammo as being. I have also stated several times that the Speer techs that have said the bullet won't fail are correct. However, while they didn't fail, they didn't work better. What are you getting with the added velocity? The ability to say you carry a "full-power" load? What I am saying is that while they did not fail, they do not perform as good as the same bullet does going 200+fps slower. If you want to carry a load that has more recoil and blast while not offering better terminal performance, go for it. I personally don't see the point.

Other specific 10mm HPs developed back then included a PMC "Starfire" 170gn JHP (@ 1300fps); Federal's 180gn Hydra-Shok; Remington's 170gn HP (@ 1340fps) & 180gn HP (@1240fps); Corbon's 180gn HP (@1178fps) and 155gn HP (@1300fps); and a Black Hills 155gn JHP (@1300fps).

While these loads were available at one time, you ARE aware that only two are left, right? The Federal 180gr. Hydra-Shok, which is FAR from a full-power load at under 1000fps (though, I noticed you left out it's factory .40S&W-like velocity) and CorBon's 155gr. JHP at 1300fps (though, now it's actually a 150gr. JHP at 1325fps). A warm load, but also not full-power. The rest have been dropped by their respective manufacturers. Ever wonder why?

Like I said, shoot whatever makes you happy. Arguing over this is silly. This nonsene is something I would expect to see on other brand X forums, not this one.

warriorsociologist
December 11, 2005, 04:13 PM
Fair enough jc2 - glad we could finally "see eye to eye." I agree with pretty much everything in your last post...though I'm not sure what can be done in the here and now to test Mike's ammo any better than many of us amateurs (and he himself) have done. Add this to the fact that at least one recognized "pro" (Ammolab / DiFabio) seems to have done quite a bit of testing on DT's loads per Turbonatr's posts. These tests do seem to all suggest that the GDHP in the .40 diameter should perhaps be left as a .40 S&W round while the GSHP, XTP, and even the venerable STHP (Winchester's not a DT load of course) be used for the 10mm. For now, I remain a "fan" of Mike's work as I like his heavier-weight XTP, WFN, and GSHP loads from him I have used. I've seem plenty of "amateur" results in support of his stuff and until I see anything to suggest I should think otherwise, I'll continue to support his products.

Also, a "big thanks" to turbonatr for his last few postings. It's good to see this kind of even-handed real-world info (and links to thinks that have dissapeared lately). Yep, agtman's experiences and a few others on GT (maybe even some of mike's (???) old gel results (not sure) that I can't seem to find anymore were the main reasons I chose to go with the GSHPs in the first place over the GDHP.

Glad we can keep this on "the High Road."


….now, if only Winchester/Nosler would come out with a 10mm specific 190-200gr. Partitian bullet. ;)

turbonatr
December 11, 2005, 04:30 PM
Also, a "big thanks" to turbonatr for his last few postings. It's good to see this kind of even-handed real-world info.


Again, it's my pleasure. :)

It's not every day enthusiasts get to see real-world results. I like to share my findings for all to see and draw their own conclusions. There are a lot of theories how how ammo should work based on assumptions (a popular assumption is faster is better), but often times real world results trump these assumptions. Todays JHPs typically work better at lower velocites (the velocites they are loaded to by their manufacturers). The big 3 have spent a ton of money and spent a lot of time with R&D and offer their JHPs already at a velocity where they will perform at optimum. The days of pumping up thick-jacketed JHPs to their highest possible velocity in hopes of getting expansion at least some of the time (as in the original Norma 170gr. JHP) is over. Todays JHPs penetrate and expand quite well and at lower velocities which is good news for us. This means less recoil, blast and wear on our guns not to mention these loads are working better and better with the compact, short-barrel pistols we like to carry due to their concealability.

All this talk aside, the "best" load in a given caliber isn't going to mean squat if you can't put it where it needs to be quickly and accurately (which is another reason why I like the warm loads versus the nuclear ones). The nuclear loads are fun for the "wow" factor at the range, but that's pretty much where I limit my use of them. Find a load that works for you and pray you never have to use it.

gandog56
January 9, 2007, 11:00 PM
Also, all bullets are of truncated cone shape.

HUH? I've loaded JHP's, RN's, SWC's, just about anything but DEWC's. And my Dan Wesson Razorback eats any of them.:confused:

jhawk92
January 13, 2007, 12:21 PM
jc2
Dredging up an old thread...but wondering if you are looking to sell that Win ST ammo for the 10mm? If so, I might be interested. Thanks.

Greg8098
January 13, 2007, 03:53 PM
Click on the link in my signature and become a much happier person :) !

atblis
January 13, 2007, 10:17 PM
is the stuff you make yourself.

I've had very good luck with XTPs at extreme velocities out of my muzzle loader. If I can find 50cal to 10mm sabots, I'll try them for hunting.

I don't know how the 44 bullet compares to the 10mm bullet construction wise, but I've had nothing but perfect performance out of them at 2000fps choronoed and close ranges. Text book expansion, and some very very dead deer. I had one lung shot that hit a rib square, punched out of the other side, followed the inside of the skin, and lodged on the side of a ham. No problems with shoulders either.

Stevie-Ray
January 14, 2007, 12:45 AM
I used almost exclusively PMC, both the 170 gr JHP and the 200 gr solid. When I reloaded them I used the same bullets with AA7 powder. Don't seem to see the PMCs anymore. They were fantastic in my Delta.

If you enjoyed reading about "Best 10mm Ammo" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!