[Preacherman]

See http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=414704&page=1 for what I believe is the ultimate photographic guide to this shooting style. All pictures were taken in Liberia during the recent civil war there. Highly recommended for one's enemies - if they shoot like this, I'll probably be as safe as possible! :D

[Omni04]

Wow Preacherman, prepare to buy a lot of people new keyboards with that one!

The Nautical theme is ever popular, as seen by this militiaman wearing the stylish Kapok life jacket.
Won't stop a bullet, but sure looks Boo-yaa!

i can't stop cracking up at this! When you are in a situation where you could die at any second, don't humans have some sort of inate tactical sense that protects them from acting like this?

lastly, imagine being the photographer :D :D

[trueblue1776]

thats pretty funny, I often wonder why the DHS is wary of Liberians, now I still wonder

[mete]

I noticed the zouave uniforn right away ! It really does add to the quality of the photograph to have a splash of color against the drab background !

[matthewdanger]

lastly, imagine being the photographer :D :D

You can actually see a photographer in the picture of the guy with the huge red pants! They're nuts.

Whats with the feather duster?

[foghornl]

I NEVER though I could filter chili through my sinus cavites...:cuss:

After those fotos, Never say "NEVER"...

[Azrael256]

Those pictures make me think that with a handful of Boy Scouts I could probably take over the whole country. I just can't figure out why I'd want Liberia.

[Medusa]

Here we have a classic! The "prone Warrior " firing position - too bad the magazine spring has blown out from the bottom of his beautifully blue-duct-tape-taped jungle magazine setup.
Oh come on, I'm glad that the laptop has waterresistant keyboard.
http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_lol.gif
Must .... stop .... laughing .... cough-cough

Preacherman, that's THE funniest thing in this year I've seen on the net http://members.chello.se/mackat/smiley/bowdown.gif

[armoredman]

I have to assume thier enemies are equally inept? I can't imagine anyone NOT winning a war against these idiots...

[shermacman]

Hard to understand how these men have the time and energy to go to work, take care of their children and be responsible husbands after a day of "over the wall, blind, one arm" shooting.

[thereisnospoon]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


:what:

[R.H. Lee]

Interesting and funny photos. But, hey, their kill ratio vs. rounds fired can't be any worse than U.S. forces in Iraq.

[El Tejon]

Inept and high.

The weird get-ups are to ward off evil spirits (and the influence of narcotics) and frighten your enemies.

The goofy shooting stances are because: 1. bullets do not kill, merely the sound of the firearm being discharged is lethal; 2. they are high and untrained; 3. it is not about fighting and killing your enemy just bravado to push the others out of your territory.

[dasmi]

+1, El Tejon

Though I can't help but wonder how fast a group from THR could restore order to that nation.

[svtruth]

to the ruggedness of the AK-47, if these skilled warriors can get 'em to shoot.

[exoduster18]

.....I'm trying to eat lunch and I come across this....I hope someone knows the heimlich manuever!!

Preacherman-Hope you got those spare keyboards. 'Cause I need one now!!

[taliv]

i very nearly soiled myself. this is just too funny for words. thx for the link preacherman

[Rob1035]

wow, some of the photoshops are just, wow. The life jacket takes the cake.


in reality its sad though.

[Omni04]

Those pictures make me think that with a handful of Boy Scouts I could probably take over the whole country. I just can't figure out why I'd want Liberia.

you need to add this caption to one of the photos :)

[VirgilCaine]

Damn. Just damn. I bet half a dozen of American "gangstas" could be running the country if they tried...

[Pilgrim]

I thought these were class pictures of Africa's world famous tactical shooting academy.

Pilgrim

[DontBurnMyFlag]

someone in that forum said the following:

"LMAO, no wonder these little civil wars go on forever."

I couldnt agree more

[RyanM]

I don't want to stereotype Africans, but I can't help but wonder how many of those people either grew up, or had parents that grew up, hunting food with a spear. If you're throwing a spear, you "aim" it from somewheres above the right shoulder. Could be a possible explanation.

May be interesting to see if archers shoot handguns better one-handed in their non-dominant hand.

[Werewolf]

http://members.cox.net/werewolf1326/images/Digital/ROFLMAO.gif

Well that style of shooting is certainly one way to keep the casualty rate down. :D

Maybe over there the winner of the war is the one judged to have the coolest way of shooting. IOW - the side with the most poseur points wins... :neener:

[Cosmoline]

The Liberian Civil War is a fascinating mix of tribal combat, modern warfare and complete weirdness. Take the cross-dressing "fright wig" soldiers for example. They believe if Death can't figure out what sex they are they can't be killed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/africa_liberia0s_crazy_fighters0/img/2.jpg

http://img.slate.com/media/10/030801_liberian-fighter.jpg

[Dr.Rob]

Stranger things came out of the Liberian conflict... childdren dressed in drag or neon wigs high on khat firing rocket launchers at YOU wouldn't be funny.

Those jounalists would be stopped at checkpoints by "General Mickey Mouse" and "General Bubblegum"... rival militias barely held together by tribal zeal, drug use and totemic magic. Bizzarre as it may seem, the bright costumes allow you to be recognized by your peers doing 'heroic things' so they became really outrageous. Esp. the guys that only fought naked.

PS that's not a feather duster, it appears to be a horse hair quirt for swatting flies.

[petrel800]

Looks like a job for the French to sort out . . . well, until they surrendered to the guy in the life vest.

[MikeIsaj]

Too too much! I love the guy in the life jacket. The look of determination on his face, the clenched jaw makes it even better.

[Too Many Choices!?]

I can't help but notice all the weapons we FREE CITIZENS OF AMERICA, can't be TRUSTED TO OWN:cuss:

[Henry Bowman]

I can't help but notice all the weapons we FREE CITIZENS OF AMERICA, can't be TRUSTED TO OWN :cuss: :cuss: indeed!


I think it would be equally amusing to have captions written by DU moonbat bedwetters! :evil:

[pmcbooks]

My favorite is the {"Homeless street person" anti-aircraft firing position}

He has a wide base of support with his legs spread wide and he is clearly shooting at a target across the street. Because of the extremely high arc he's using (to protect his compatriots in the middle of the street), he needs a curved sight picture. Hence sighting along the magazine.

[P95Carry]

Just - well - incredible!!!:uhoh: :D

[outofbattery]

Other than the obvious effect of lots of drugs,the main reason for dressing up is so that the Grim Reaper doesn't recognize you and what better way to fool him than by becoming a woman or wearing a lampshade on your head?

[petrel800]

Editing Brad Paisley's song alcohol,

"I bet you won't put that life jacket over your head."

[adaman04]

As funny as some of those are, I wouldn't want to get in to a gunfight with any of them a couple of leaves from the coca plant tucked in the lip, those guys become super man. If you point one of those pieces at me, I will be forced to show you what marksmanship is. :D

[Cosmoline]

Cross-dressing as Frenchmen didn't work too well for those Yankee "Zouaves" either :D

(Or the Louisiana Zouaves for that matter)

[shaldag]

bloody 'ell. I thought those folks were poor? Where do they get all the money for their ammo?

[Rob1035]

its cheap on the free market without taxes tariffs and gun store markup:p

[carebear]

That's FOOD money.

Ammo money they got.

:D

[RaggedClaws]

I saw a documentary on Liberia recently (on Discovery Times, or History Channel, or whatever), and let me tell ya, it's much much funnier seeing them shooting in action. I couldn't believe it, I was just sitting there with my mouth wide open watching it, incredulous.

[Mongo the Mutterer]

So dat's why I can't hit nothing with my AK. I need to shizzle my knizzle... :D

The life vest is sooo cool. If you are going to stand up and be a target, why not be a bright orange one! :eek:

[losangeles]

Amazing, just amazing!

[losangeles]

An understatement, but yeah those soldiers could use some basic training in fundamentals.

It's no surprise that some countries over there have been taken down by small bands of hired mercenaries during the 60's and 70's.

[Cosmoline]

http://www.suprmchaos.com/liberia_071203.jpg

My favorites are General Butt Naked and the All-Stars.

Yes, that's actually the name of a rebel clan.

http://www.comebackalive.com/df/dplaces/liberia/player1.htm

Top of the Pops was the 25-year-old Krahn fighter, Joshua Milton Blahyi, who led the Butt Naked Brigade. Their claim to fame was going into battle in their birthday suits as a sign of defiance and invincibility. Young boys cheered the amply endowed "general" when he "swung" through the capital on his motorbike and fought wearing only Chuck Taylors.

---


Apparently, Butt Naked has since retired and become a preacher!

[WarMachine]

I feel sorry for what is happening in some parts of Africa. There's a family of Africans (from Malawi) that we know very well, and they are some of the nicest and intelligent people I know. Too bad the entire continent has fallen under the shadow of stereotypes perpetuated by the Darwinian goons in these pics...

[RyanM]

At least the ones that weren't in the process of shooting had the sense to keep their fingers off the triggers.

[bigun15]

Though I can't help but wonder how fast a group from THR could restore order to that nation.

Agreed. Depending on how many people decided they wanted to run the country, it could be done in a couple weeks. And if it weren't for traveling time, even less.

[torpid]

wow, some of the photoshops are just, wow.

:confused:

[Skofnung]

I read 13 pages of that post on ARFcom. At first I LMAO. As the pictures progressed to less comical images, the humor wore off. It makes me sad that there are folks out there that seem to enjoy causing others to suffer. :(

On a practical note, it serves as a reminder to buy more ammo and practice. If we ever have to fight goblins, I hope they shoot like these goons.

Africa would be a great place if there wasn't so much of this going on there. I'm beginning to think Kim du Toit was right in his Let Africa Sink essay. :mad:

[Tomcat1066]

I hope anyone I ever have to fight against shoots like that, but I know *I* ain't about to count on it ;)

Tom

[Kurush]

Couple more from the arfcom thread.
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6605/falblackguy2xu4da.jpg
Poor FAL :(

Miss Transvestite Monrovia 2005:
http://www.everyscreen.com/photos_03/MonroviaNewOrder_01.jpg

[Turkey Creek]

Wow, ground zero for a nuke if I ever saw one-

[VirgilCaine]

Couple more from the arfcom thread.
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6605/falblackguy2xu4da.jpg
Poor FAL :(
[/IMG]

What is with the uhhh..."scope" on that FAL?

[ewb45acp]

Gotta get me some of that blue duct tape!

[1911Tuner]

The guy that said: Imagine what an American with a scoped rifle could do over there..."

Sheeeit! Imagine what bubba could do with an old thutty-thutty Winchester!:D

[Ziryo]

Humorous, but informative. Thanks Preacherman (and THR.)

[WarMachine]

Though I can't help but wonder how fast a group from THR could restore order to that nation.

Restore order how exactly? You can't repair a nation by simply shooting all the "bad guys." This crap has been engrained into their culture over the past centuries...

Most know very little of western culture and society, and what we see as order and democracy is totally alien to them. Fact of the matter is, no one know exactly how to restore places like this. The Iraq war has proved how difficult this can be. Religion, extremist politics, and fanaticism rule supreme in these countries...

[Atticus]

A person has to wonder how such impoverished people can have a seemingly endless supply of guns and ammo.

[ctdonath]

This crap has been engrained into their culture over the past centuries...Then how did they get coherent enough to build the city in the first place? Yeesh...how'd they get from architecture and multi-story construction to life jackets as body armor?

[Tory]

"Then how did they get coherent enough to build the city in the first place?"

European colonialists. Next intractible question.

"Yeesh...how'd they get from architecture and multi-story construction to life jackets as body armor?"

Nationalism and self-determination.

So-called, of course. :rolleyes:

[Hardtarget]

I've never been in a situation where bullets were flying all over.You have to think... even an "errant hit" could be deadly! On the other hand...a truely cool headed killer could wreak havock...shot after shot! I agree with you all. Those are some funny pictures. I've seen some similar shots on news footage off and on...always laugh.
Mark.

[carebear]

Read almost anything about the Zulu warriors when they first took up rifles in the 19th century. They would push the sights all the way up to give the rounds that "extra power".

Most of the Africans with the education and Western sophistication to save these countries have already left for civilization and most are far too smart to go back.

In subSaharan Africa, it's back to good old tribal life, just with better weapons, any veneer of real politics is just that and wearing thinner by the generation. Once they kill off all the wildlife the only reason for the rest of the world to go there will be to extract the minerals. It might be worth investing in trade blanket and bead futures. :uhoh:

As was said, self-determination might have been a bit premature.

[jsalcedo]

http://mo.essortment.com/liberiahistory_rkew.htm


The result was the establishment of the American Colonization Society -- an organization tasked with handling the emigration. The Society’s first president was Bushrod Washington (nephew to President Washington). Other prominent officers and members included Henry Clay, Francis Scott Key, James Monroe and Daniel Webster. Leading African-Americans thoroughly disenchanted with America, such as Absalom Jones and Richard Allen, also became leading members. A majority of freed slaves, however, did not approve of the emigration scheme, arguing that they were fully American and had a duty to fight for those still enslaved.
I's like a bad episode of survivor 150 years later.

[outofbattery]

A person has to wonder how such impoverished people can have a seemingly endless supply of guns and ammo.


Cold War foreign aid.Many African countries bounced between the West and USSR,often playing one off against the other,and part of the bounty was a whole heap of small arms.

[stevelyn]

The funniest one has to be the guy in a prone, unsupported, position with the *** look on his face reaching for the charging handle.............magazine floorplate launched to areas unknown, mag spring sproinged out the bottom.....:D :evil:

[Number 6]

When I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo this summer, they were moving troops through the city I was in. I would say about one third to one half of the AKs there had the butt removed, with almost all of them very rusted. I have no idea how they got any accuracy when shooting. Basic training goes a long way in teaching soldiers how to fight. If you go across the border into Rwanda you will find well trained soldiers with very well kept weapons.

Most of the Africans with the education and Western sophistication to save these countries have already left for civilization and most are far too smart to go back.


I would not make broad statements like that without some evidence. I have met many Congolese, Rwandans, and Burundians that have been educated in the U.S. and went back to work in their home countries. These are by far some of the highest quality people I have ever met.

In subSaharan Africa, it's back to good old tribal life, just with better weapons, any veneer of real politics is just that and wearing thinner by the generation. Once they kill off all the wildlife the only reason for the rest of the world to go there will be to extract the minerals. It might be worth investing in trade blanket and bead futures.

I study African politics amongst other things for a living, and empirically your statement is not true for most African countries.

[PzGren]

While an extra adrenalin output might help you to club your enemy harder, it does not necessarily help with fire discipline.
A few years back in Ivory Coast about 400 Nigerian "peacekeepers" unexpectantly met some locals and emptied their guns until they ran out of ammo, they then surrendered just to be released a few days later since the insurgents did not want to feed them. Let's assume each soldier had only five 20 round mags for his FAL.....

[PzGren]

...oh, I forgot , the Nigerians did not kill anybody, so there were no hard feelings.

[mindpilot]

that is too funny,

[twoblink]

Almost blew good wine out the nose!!

Man, I needed that..

[Tory]

"If you go across the border into Rwanda you will find well trained soldiers with very well kept weapons."

Yet the majority of those murdered during the ethnic cleansing there were killed by machetes and/or being burned alive in locked buildings.

Since when have firearms become the weapon of choice in Rwanda?

[Preacherman]

Tory, the "militias" that did the massacring in Rwanda were largely civilians armed with whatever they could pick up from their houses and farms. The insurgents who then attacked and took over the country were at least partially trained, and have benefited from further training once they became the Government. They're now among the better-trained African armies (although no African army would really do well against a First World military force in a conventional war).

[carp killer]

Most of the African fighters in those pictures are high on dope. Drugs are rampant in the militias. Give them strength and kills the pain.:rolleyes:

[M67]

Since when have firearms become the weapon of choice in Rwanda? I don't know what the Rwandan military used to be like, but as I understand it, they now receive a lot of military aid from Uganda. When I was there some years ago, all the Ugandan soldiers I saw looked like they were well trained and disciplined.

Yeah, out of context the pictures are funny, sort of. I laughed too. But lots of people do get killed there, and usually not the ones who "need killin". The laughter does have a bitter after taste.

As Number 6 says, most of Africa is not like this. In fact the parts of Africa I have seen, are very different from this.

[oh blanky]

The only fighting I would do if I lived there would be to get to the airport.

That's third world +p+ if I ever saw it.

[Hutch]

I saw the same show that RaggedClaw described. It's horrifying to see these guys literally dancing a jig as they fire from the hip, from over the head, etc. on full auto. Life is cheap there. They interviewed some of these < 15yo "fighters", and they were completely fatalistic. I don't think any of them expected to see 20. There was footage of some guy with a mortar tube between his splayed legs (kinda like our AA gunner), and he was firing it w/o the bipod, just held the tube with his hand. He was so whacked out, he bleedin' near shot himself with a morter round. He could not possibly have had a target in sight.

I'd love to listen to someone (maybe Number 6?) who could actually help me understand how things can become so unstable/anarchic there.

[The Viking]

An understatement, but yeah those soldiers could use some basic training in fundamentals.

It's no surprise that some countries over there have been taken down by small bands of hired mercenaries during the 60's and 70's.
Mercenaries? You could take over the whole country with a bunch of blind boy scouts.

[ocabj]

I found those pictures pure comedy.

For all those who posted that a couple of trained shooters could easily survive in that environment, I think you are forgetting about what happened in Somalia. Lots of trained Rangers and Delta operators, but suffering lots of casualties against poorly trained militia.

[outofbattery]

The long story short of the failure of African countries comes down to:European countries give colonies independance in the 1960's.Most end up with some form of dictatorship with backing from the West or Communist Bloc.Both sides pump much foreign aid to Africa to keep their proxies in power and to destabilize the others.At the end of the Cold War,the USSR couldn't afford to keep funding revolutions and the West no longer saw the need to keep tyrants like Mubuto in Zaire propped up and the rotten houses fell apart.What you're seeing is a failure to move very far foreward in any way in the past 40 years ( you can blame the colonizers or the kleptocrats who've run the places if you want):lack of basic needs and education being met means many not very bright people get angry and have access to lots of guns.

If you've seen Hotel Rwanda and want the actual story behind it,read Romeo Dallaire's Shake Hands With the Devil.

[Buzztail]

And you guys are wondering where all of the 7.62x39 is going......

[VirgilCaine]

And you guys are wondering where all of the 7.62x39 is going......

LOL!

[Kurush]

And you guys are wondering where all of the 7.62x39 is going......
They call it "gravel".
http://www.tlcafrica.com/bulles.jpg

[jsalcedo]

Doesn't brass sell to recylcers for $5 per pound?

These people are walking on a gold mine.

[Kharn]

Most 7.62x39 is steel cased.

Kharn

[RyanM]

Considering that copper sells currently for $2.10 per pound, and zinc is worth around $0.40 per pound, I really doubt that cartridge brass (68.5-71.5% Cu, <0.05% Fe, <0.07% Pb, 28.5-31.5% Zn, <0.15% other) is worth that much. Going by just the values of the metals, the most it could be is $1.55 per pound.

[scout26]

If you ever wonder where those old clothes you donated to Goodwill, Purple Heart Veterans, etc, ends up at....... well does anyone want to claim some of the clothes in those pictures as theirs from the 80's or 90's ???

[carebear]

As Number 6 says, most of Africa is not like this. In fact the parts of Africa I have seen, are very different from this.

Consider the crow eaten.

I should know better than to make broad generalizations.

I would question whether "most" of Africa, though not like this, is truly functional as far as infrastructure and political life go.

The scenes pictured are Mad Max writ large, but I hardly consider paved roads reverting to dirt tracks and water supplies becoming unpotable while life outside the cities reverts to subsistence living comparable to the last century to be doing much better. Harare may be a gem but I expect the smaller villages to be doing at least as well as those in the Alaskan Bush.

[Lucky]

The guy carrying a wounded buddy while keeping the muzzle pointed toward the enemy with only 1 hand, and his finger off the trigger, I kind of thought he had his stuff together.

My favorite is definately the cape though!

[Firethorn]

The guy carrying a wounded buddy while keeping the muzzle pointed toward the enemy with only 1 hand, and his finger off the trigger, I kind of thought he had his stuff together.

My favorite is definately the cape though!

Agreed. From the way the guy was hanging off from him, it looks like he's injured in some way.

I felt that the pictures of the weapon handling was funny, the results(though rare) of fire, however inaccurate on average, not funny.

It calls into question the philosophy of 'an armed society is a polite society', but I guess the second part of having a peacefull society is having hope. If you have no hope, if you have no strong desire for self preservation leading from that hope, you have reason to be polite, to encourage peace, to only take up your arms to defend yourself, your family, your society, your country.

It also makes me think that it's a wonder that the USA is as peacefull as it is. It seems that as you increase ethnic diversity, violence increases. The USA is so diverse it's almost like it came through the other side back into non-violence. Where do you see the most violence? Where different races, cultures, have ghettoized themselves, where they've lost hope, etc.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

[QUOTE=Kurush]Couple more from the arfcom thread.
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6605/falblackguy2xu4da.jpg
Poor FAL :(

Has anybody figured out what is with that scope yet?

[Crosshair]

ocabj

For all those who posted that a couple of trained shooters could easily survive in that environment, I think you are forgetting about what happened in Somalia. Lots of trained Rangers and Delta operators, but suffering lots of casualties against poorly trained militia.

IIRC didn't we have like a 300 to 1 kill ratio on them? And that was when we where running trying to get the heck out of town once SHTF. You get a .308 with a supressor on a tall building and they would never find you.

[max popenker]

Has anybody figured out what is with that scope yet?
I believe this is an early version of Armson OEG - a red-dot type sight made in South Africa. Rifle is most probably the S-African R1.
Modern OEG sights look like that (http://armson1.site.yahoo.net/armsonoeg.html)

[GoBrush]

:D

Woke up, could not sleep, to damn early to laugh that much, now I am really awake, thanks preacher man now I'll never get back to bed!:D

[Silent-Snail]

I laughed, I cried, now my head hurts so I'm off to L&P.

Edit: I also read the whole 18 page shebang.

[Sportcat]

"I'm the only one qualified to shoot this rusty AK with a life vest..."

[Omni04]

man i posted a link to the ar-15 post on another forum i frequent and i am getting flamed like crazy. Hahaha, goes to show you that some people will do anything to pick an e fight ;)

[RyanM]

It also makes me think that it's a wonder that the USA is as peacefull as it is. It seems that as you increase ethnic diversity, violence increases. The USA is so diverse it's almost like it came through the other side back into non-violence. Where do you see the most violence? Where different races, cultures, have ghettoized themselves, where they've lost hope, etc.

The fact is, the US as a whole actually is pretty peaceful. I really do not buy the whole "racial violence" thing. The UK is pretty darn racially homogenous, and yet they have roughly 5 times as much reported violent crime per population. Since the UK's definition of something-or-other wounding is much narrower than aggravated assault in the USA (lesser forms of wounding aren't violent crimes, much like simple assault in the US), and the UK figures are based on convictions rather than the actual number of crimes reported, it's pretty safe to say that the UK has at least 10 times as much violent crime per population. I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 40 or 50 times as much.

The fact is, most violent criminals in this country are extremely impoverished, have nothing to live for, and have no hope, just like these guys in Africa. The fact that they're mostly Black is due to socioeconomic reasons, which are incredibly obvious if you know anything about the history of this country. Being property for 2 centuries, then being treated like second-class citizens for a century more, is a hard blow to recover from. It's not as easy as saying "okay, you're free and you're our equals, now get a job."

If anything, "ghetto-izing" is just more proof that segregation and separation don't work, even if it's done willingly. Ghettos aren't places where "ethnic diversity has increased," they're the exact opposite.

[Number 6]

It also makes me think that it's a wonder that the USA is as peacefull as it is. It seems that as you increase ethnic diversity, violence increases. The USA is so diverse it's almost like it came through the other side back into non-violence. Where do you see the most violence? Where different races, cultures, have ghettoized themselves, where they've lost hope, etc.

Having a bunch of ethnicities does not cause conflict by itself. What most of the research has found is that where a region is ethnically diverse and there is another exacerbating factor like economic or political marginalization, then there is an increased likelihood of conflict. People like Samuel Huntington, Robert Kaplan, and Benjamin Barber have propagated the myth that ethnicities are naturally conflictual, and that much of the world is returning to a state of tribal warfare. The problem is that they do not have the empirical evidence to back it up. What you see are some very extreme cases of ethnic conflict like in Palestine, Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia, Burundi, and so on, but that does not count all of the other regions that have diverse ethnic groups and have relative peace. The work of Fox, Inglehart and Norris, and Sadowski have all provided evidence that directly contradicts the claims of Huntington and the like.

There is also the problem of how the news media and the West perceive of conflicts in Africa and in other parts of the world. It is easy to explain the concept very simply as just ethnic rivalry, but that does not take into account the history of the region or the complex political and economic situations. One of the best anecdotes to this comes from the Bosnian war where a lady pointed out that she did not realize that she was Muslim until CNN told her she was.

I would question whether "most" of Africa, though not like this, is truly functional as far as infrastructure and political life go.

The scenes pictured are Mad Max writ large, but I hardly consider paved roads reverting to dirt tracks and water supplies becoming unpotable while life outside the cities reverts to subsistence living comparable to the last century to be doing much better. Harare may be a gem but I expect the smaller villages to be doing at least as well as those in the Alaskan Bush.

No one is going to argue that Africa as a whole is developed in the same way that the United States is developed, but economic development is very different than political development. Democracy, civil society, and rule of law are in place in many African states. Some countries in Africa have localized problems as well. Uganda is a relatively stable country, but has an active and violent insurgency in the north, but Spain also has the Basques to deal. Some have high crime rates such as South Africa, but has a very active democracy. Africa is very diverse and making broad claims about the continent politically is difficult.

In terms of economic development, outside of the major cities you definitely see a more rural form of living, and a lot of subsistence farming. This is not like Mad Max however. Education in many countries is provided and development is happening in some countries, albeit slowly. What you see in the media is not reminiscent of what you see when you are actually there.

[losangeles]

What you see in the media is not reminiscent of what you see when you are actually there.

Number 6, you seem so pro-African, and that's cool with me! Someone needs to take the cause.

I've been to Africa many, many times, for many years. Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Nigeria, to name a few -- and I don't share your optimism of the conditions there vis-a-vis the rest of the world. I've (tried to) run businesses there and still have plenty of ties there; I vacation there, I talk on the cell with folks there still. I hope one day to be successful there. Mauritius and Seychelles in the Indian Ocean felt pretty stable. Egypt and Libya felt different, in a very hectic sort of way, but there was no instability.

But man, I've seen a lot of things beyond the negativism of the media -- stuff people will not believe! The tribalism -- and the violence engendered by it -- is no joke! You can point your finger at the Basque in Spain and all the other trouble spots in the world, but African problems are definitely there and definitely unique.

I was not there but I have personally talked with people who were in the midst of 3/4 million people killed (by mostly machete and blunt weapons) in 4 months time in Rwanda. I know people who grew up during that time and still talk to them, about how as kids they were playing with bones -- there were fields of bones! -- not knowing any better.

There's some backward stuff people wouldn't believe. I have been amongst tribesmen who were stark naked, walking around like it's normal, and taking a crap by bending over, and resuming their walk like it's nothing. And if you want to talk to them about philosophy or advantages of diversification, you might as well forget it. And this was not in only one country (a backwater part of Ethiopia, and again in Tanzania). Some peeps are living like their ancestors were 2,000 years ago still.

I know many Africans here in the States who will corroborate what I say. From different countries. Somalia included. We know about that one. Some of the sh*t they had to go through ain't no joke.

I won't get into my career, but trust me, I've been there and have seen some awful sh*t. I want it to change. I want something positive to come about. But believe me, there's a long, long way to go -- face the facts: the deplorable conditions are the worst in the world --- and peeps got to recognize this before hoping to make fixes. I don't know the solution, but the solution is not from denying the level of difficulty and sugarcoating the progress.

[dasmi]

I have been amongst tribesmen who were stark naked, walking around like it's normal, and taking a crap by bending over, and resuming their walk like it's nothing.
I would imagine it is normal, in that culture.

[mustanger98]

The life vest is sooo cool. If you are going to stand up and be a target, why not be a bright orange one!

Yeah, till somebody like me shows up and shoots back... with an M1 Garand... might just mistake 'em for a clay pigeon, orange side facing, on the 100yd berm.:cool:

(So far, I've only read to post #41, so I keep reading.)

[Number 6]

Number 6, you seem so pro-African, and that's cool with me! Someone needs to take the cause.

Well I have made African Politics my regional specialty, and have done a lot of work on ethnic conflict. I am certainly not going to say that Africa does not have a lot of problems, and that they will be easy to overcome. I am also not saying that ethic differences are not a real problem in many of the countries either. The point I was trying to make was that there is a tendency to reduce the conflict in Africa to just tribalism, which is an incorrect notion. There are a lot of problems associated with differing ethnic groups, but similar problems happen in Asia, the Middle East, and Latin America. Corruption, disease, war, and rampant poverty are problems a lot of the countries face, that exacerbate ethnic cleavages.

The problem is that often times we look at Africa as a lost cause, which it is not. Most of my personal experience is with Rwanda and the DRC. Yes, Rwanda experienced a horrible genocide 11 years ago, and yes it was largely ethnically based. If you talk to Rwandans however, some will tell you that prior to the genocide they considered themselves Rwandan and not a Hutu or a Tutsi, and for some reason that they cannot fully explain their tribal affiliations were made prevalent during the genocide. Today, Rwanda is stable, but it is also a dictatorship albeit a somewhat benevolent one. The government has gone a long way to heal the wounds that were created. That is not to say that there is not a lot of work a head, but today the ethnic differences have been ameliorated to some degree. The ethnic problems are still there and are problems, but the situation is stable and any violent conflict within Rwanda is not likely. Economically Rwanda is doing quite well, and while very poor, is progressing.

In terms of culture, yes there are many people who live much like their ancestors to, I have seen that as well. I am not arguing that diversification in some classically liberal sense is going to solve all the problems, or is a good thing, but like I said I just want to caution on viewing Africa too much through the prism of tribalism and backwardness. I have seen some of the worst parts of Africa as well. I was in the DRC and saw things that made me want to scream in despair. I have seen some really good things in Africa, and I have seen some really bad things. It

[kentucky bucky]

As idiotic as they look, they would still kick the French Army's a**. The first sight of the red pants and life vest and the white flags and the wine and cheese would come out. :D In fact they are probably using the same style of fighting as the folks who ran the French out of Africa in the first place.

[Black Majik]

LOL, probably one of the funniest threads in a long time. Some of those comments were hilarious.

I loved the life vest, the cape, and the bright yellow poncho in the middle of fighting. Those deserve to go in the strategies and tactics forum :D

I found this funny as hell...
http://usera.imagecave.com/heyheybooboo/grandtheftauto.jpg

[mustanger98]

Okay, now I know who dreamed up the assault wheelbarrow in the first place.:uhoh:

[Mr_Moore]

You want your enemy to be ducking instead of firing at you. A few rounds in their general direction will often suffice. You do not need/want sniper fire.

This was the big leap forward with assualt rifles, the technique of not aiming every shot.

In WWI they restricted the number of rounds to prevent soldiers firing without aiming. It turned out to be a big mistake in combat.

Now if you could just explain the guy in the wheel barrow to me...(maybe he was wounded)

[carebear]

If the rounds aren't hitting near me, and I have cover, I'm not going to be "suppressed" very long. Then I'm going to reply with aimed fire.

Suppressing fire is only effective to create openings to maneuver and reply with aimed fire (or, alternately, run away). Suppressing fire never won a battle.

[Kurush]

You want your enemy to be ducking instead of firing at you. A few rounds in their general direction will often suffice. You do not need/want sniper fire.I think you MIGHT be giving them too much credit! If this is just a crazy way of using fire and maneuver tactics then where's the assault team? Or is that them in the wheelbarrow? LOL :neener: :neener:

[Strings]

And here I just thought they learned tactics on the paintball field...

[Warren]

Ya know, this is how the antis think of US. As a bunch of ignorant goons who just want to spray down whole neighborhoods with FA fire.

And so if it wasn't for gun laws we would be doing exactly that.

[Joejojoba111]

Now if you could just explain the guy in the wheel barrow to me...(maybe he was wounded)

"Who runs barter town?"

[owen]

Supressive fire is still aimed.

[Mr_Moore]

I think you MIGHT be giving them too much credit! If this is just a crazy way of using fire and maneuver tactics then where's the assault team? Or is that them in the wheelbarrow? LOL :neener: :neener:

If I am wrong and they are not firing supressive fire, then they are in severe need of training.

[ctdonath]

We're talking about crazed armed transvestites wearing "shoot me" colors, floatation devices, and animal heads. These are people who are in severe need of reality.

[Strings]

either that, or we're in need of better drugs. One or the other...

[michakav]

This is definately a LMAO thread. I also LMAO while i was watching the documentary on Discovery ( or one of those channels). I laughed right up until I saw a reporter ask the woman in charge of a local orphanage when the children had eaten last. The woman started to laugh, her response in broken english was " food, there is no food". It didn't seem as simple as let them kill each other any more. Neither side will let anything through to sustain the non-combatants. I know it's easy to laugh at this kind of thing, but remember , it's not always that funny.

[Medusa]

Yeah, out of context these images are funny as hell, but considering the collateral damage to civilian population this is a fu**ing tragedy.:cuss:

[Smoke]

I know nothing of African culture or politics. But those saying Bubba could do damage on these guys with a 30-30 is silliness.

Note the muscles and lack of excess body fat. These guys are used to a hard existance and blood and death is normal.

Bubba would be rendered useless in short order. Most of the guys I see at the range or the gurus of your favorite gun rag would be crying like little girls the first time 30 comically dressed, lanky, under trained Africans let fly with a few hundered rounds of unaimed fire.

I would be questioning the value of a 30-30 in that position.

Smoke

[JMusic]

I too find no humor in this. As tragic as it seems there may be some good out of this. If we could get them all to South East Asia we may very well have the answer to the Bird Flu.

[carebear]

If the civilians really wanted to do something about these problems they could do it themselves, neh?

They have more-or-less equal access to the flood of arms, they have a community to draw from, they are presumably competent adults. To somehow claim that they are unable to control their own society against this banditry and savagery leads one down a path of logic that ends supporting every idiotic racial stereotype ever uttered.

They have the tools and ability to fix this now and it didn't go bad overnight. It is a tragedy of, in the end, their own making; just as it would be if we let it happen here.

[haole_boySS]

Wow, I could swear those pics are from the streets of Washington D.C. :neener:

[Legionnaire]

Original link seems dead. Anybody have a fresh one?

[Creeping Incrementalism]

"Who runs barter town?"

I think it's "Who run barter town?", without the "s", and are you saying it looks like the guy in the wheelbarrow has no legs? And what is he holding, a shorty RPG?

[KONY]

Original link seems dead. Anybody have a fresh one?

+1! I would like to see the thread as well but the link isn't working.
:confused: