[ccw007]

Okay Guys I got my C&R and have a question. I am thinking about getting a Swiss K31 and if I buy two, I get them for 10.00 less each gun. Well I do not need two of them, but can I order two pick out the best one and sell the other one? This way I get mine cheaper and I get to pick the best one for my collection. If I sell it at cost then I am not making any kind of profit. My dad wants one so I would sell it to him.

Now is this legal? The way I take it is not and told my dad I did not want to do this just in case I get audited because I did not want anything to create questions.

Now if he had his C&R would it be okay to do this?

[CZ 75 BD]

Perfectly legal. You may exchange in order to enhance your collection.

[ccw007]

Perfectly legal. You may exchange in order to enhance your collection.

Even though I order two at the same time with the intent to just keep the best one and sell the other one to enhance my collection?

[kfranz]

Okay Guys I got my C&R and have a question. I am thinking about getting a Swiss K31 and if I buy two, I get them for 10.00 less each gun. Well I do not need two of them, but can I order two pick out the best one and sell the other one? This way I get mine cheaper and I get to pick the best one for my collection. If I sell it at cost then I am not making any kind of profit. My dad wants one so I would sell it to him.

Now is this legal? The way I take it is not and told my dad I did not want to do this just in case I get audited because I did not want anything to create questions.

Now if he had his C&R would it be okay to do this?

Doesn't matter if he has his C&R or not. The firearms are yours to do with as you please, provided you don't "engage in the business". Selling at a profit is not a problem either.

[kfranz]

Even though I order two at the same time with the intent to just keep one and sell the other?

Delete the post and no one will know your intentions...

Or, you could alter your intentions to go something like this...

"I really love those old Swiss rifles. So much so, in fact, that I'm going to buy two because they are just that cool."

Upon receiving them, of course you'd be disappointed at the condition of one of them, or realize that your love for all things Swiss was now a love for all things Russian, and lo and behold some company has cheap Russian rifles too, and if you sold one of your Swiss rifles, you could have one of those Russian beauties....

[ccw007]

okay thanks guys. I was thinking I could not do this.

[pmcbooks]

Perfectly legal. And it doesn't matter if you take a profit or not. So feel free to ask your dad for another fiver over cost and split the savings ;)

If you are making a habit of it, you will look like you are "dealing." Again, it doesn't matter if you actually make a profit or not. You are not keeping records of cost or sale price anyway.

Doesn't matter if the buyer has C&R or not. It's not a "secret club."

But whatever you do don't take the money before you buy the gun (straw purchase).

[thatguy]

Gray area. C&R is not for business, and the ATF emphasizes that you may not engage in the business of selling guns. That's fairly nebulous and not clearly defined. Yes, you may improve your collection by selling one gun to replace with another. But I think the people saying it's fine to buy and sell for profit on a C&R are wrong. The ATF makes it clear this is NOT A DEALER'S LICENSE and if you intentionally buy more guns than you want with plans to sell some that sounds to me like you are dealing. Maybe the ATF wouldn't be interested, but maybe they would.

[sctman800]

I just got my C&R so I am not an expert on legal issues, but I personally wouldn't do it. My question for you is how long have you had your license? I very seldom sell a firearm of any kind so that is not really an issue for me, but have set a time limit for myself. I will not sell any C&R gun in my first year of being licensed, and will not sell any gun I have had less than one year. I figure that legal or not we are still dealing with the BATF and dont plan on taking any chances. Jim.

[kfranz]

Gray area. C&R is not for business, and the ATF emphasizes that you may not engage in the business of selling guns. That's fairly nebulous and not clearly defined. Yes, you may improve your collection by selling one gun to replace with another. But I think the people saying it's fine to buy and sell for profit on a C&R are wrong. The ATF makes it clear this is NOT A DEALER'S LICENSE and if you intentionally buy more guns than you want with plans to sell some that sounds to me like you are dealing. Maybe the ATF wouldn't be interested, but maybe they would.

There is no restriction on the # of firearms you can sell in order to improve your collection. While you are correct that "engaging in the business" is a gray area, there is NO prohbition from selling, nor is there any restriction on profit.

[kentucky_smith]

How would you note this in your bound book? Should you have the gun transferred? I've always wondered about this, can you just sell a gun, any gun, that you have purchased from an FFL to a regular citizen without any paperwork?

[ccw007]

My question for you is how long have you had your license?
I just got mine. This is not something I would do very often. I got my C&R more for discounts elsewhere. I just happened to be talking to my dad about the K31 and he was saying good things about them, and said if I order two he would buy the one I did not want. It just felt like it could be a gray area to me. I was thinking well if I bought two in order to get a sample of what they had then take the best one for my collection and sell the other to him. While in theory this may be legal, but I was more worried how it was appear on paper. I think I am going to air on the side of caution here and not do it.

[kfranz]

How would you note this in your bound book? Should you have the gun transferred? I've always wondered about this, can you just sell a gun, any gun, that you have purchased from an FFL to a regular citizen without any paperwork?

Yes, you can sell it to a regular joe without any paperwork, other than recording the details in your bound book. State rules may vary

[Declaration Day]

If you must make a note in your bound book, why don't you say it is a Christmas gift to your father? I don't see any need to mention the exchange of money.

[thatguy]

kfranz- I suspect that the ATF would take a dim view of a C&R holder buying guns with the intent of reselling. Improving one's collection, I think, is allowed by selling a current holding to replace with a better one, not buying multiple guns with the intent of selling all but one.

Like I said, the rules are not clearly defined. But the ATF does plainly state that the C&R is not a dealer's license and buying guns with the intent to resell could be interpreted as doing business.

I doubt that the ATF devotes much resources to keeping tabs on a few gun sales by C&R holders, but I would prefer not to risk drawing their attention.

[Hawk]

ATF regs occasionally appear to me to be intentionally nebulous.

I've had my C&R 3 years and am looking at the renewal form as I type.

Included on the form are two boxes to fill in:

1. How many have you bought with your license?

2. How many have you disposed of?

My personal guideline is to be able to fill out those two boxes without having one's sphincter twitch closed.

Recall that, as with the original application, your local CLEO will get a copy of your filled out renewal. Difference is that there's now numbers on it.

[Amish_Bill]

As long as you can show that you are buying and selling for the purposes of collection enhancement, you are in good shape.

Buy 5, sort, sell the two you don't like as much. Buy a few new ones, sell other items that you don't like as much. Whittle down your existing collection for space issues, build it back up when you find a good sale and have a fresh lockup to fill.

Buying one and immediately selling it - here and there might be explained as you not being satisfied with the unit for some reason and you are liquidating it to free cash for another acquisition. If your bound book has a pattern of buy 1, turn around, immediately sell same 1 entries, well... That's mighty suspicious.

As far as writing items out of your bound book, there are blanks for source, destination, dates, addresses for both, serial number, description, etc. There is no blank for how much you paid or what you sold it for. All you have to show is what it is, where you got it, and where it went when it left your collection. Any incidental profit or loss you make on your collection is purely a matter between you and your accountant. (and maybe your signifigant other)

[kfranz]

kfranz- I suspect that the ATF would take a dim view of a C&R holder buying guns with the intent of reselling. Improving one's collection, I think, is allowed by selling a current holding to replace with a better one, not buying multiple guns with the intent of selling all but one.

Like I said, the rules are not clearly defined. But the ATF does plainly state that the C&R is not a dealer's license and buying guns with the intent to resell could be interpreted as doing business.



They could take a dim view of buying ONE and selling it. My point was that it IS a grey area, but the regulations certainly don't prohibit it. There is NO reference to selling one example to buy a better example of the same thing. Collectors change the direction of their collecting all the time, so it IS acceptable to liquidate something and replace it with something completely different, or liquidate a bunch of stuff to replace it with a single item.

As for mispercieved intentions, I'm in agreement with you. That is the reason I suggested that ccw007 intentions be other than what he originally posted.

[Hawkmoon]

I just got mine. This is not something I would do very often. I got my C&R more for discounts elsewhere. I just happened to be talking to my dad about the K31 and he was saying good things about them, and said if I order two he would buy the one I did not want. It just felt like it could be a gray area to me. I was thinking well if I bought two in order to get a sample of what they had then take the best one for my collection and sell the other to him. While in theory this may be legal, but I was more worried how it was appear on paper. I think I am going to air on the side of caution here and not do it.
So why doesn't your father buy two, with the understanding that you get the better one? If he doesn't have a C&R, then there's no question.

BTW ... it's "err" on the side of caution, not "air."

[ccw007]

Thanks for the correction when I type at work I tend to make mistakes since I am doing 5 things at once.

He does not have a C&R, if he did I would not worry much about doing this.

[Amish_Bill]

Buy 2, keep the one you like best, offer the other to your father. If he likes it, log it out of your book to him. Simple, clean, legal.

[Carlos]

ya, I see no problems. Just don't get in the habit of doing this type transaction for your friends, even if they ask. They can get their own 03s.

[jeremywills]

ya, I see no problems. Just don't get in the habit of doing this type transaction for your friends, even if they ask. They can get their own 03s.

+1

To give to your father, I dont think its a big deal, its not like your selling to just any joe blow out there, you know exactly where its going and that its not falling into criminal hands

From what I take of it, just notate in your log that where you transfered to and its all good

I have seriously considered the C&R thing recently, someone on Sigforum said its the most expensive 30 bucks you will ever spend, and in the long run buying old rifles via mail order is pretty tempting, I want to start a Mosin Collection, why its tempting to me, I was just looking at the ATFs website and it does clearly state you can thin out the collection if needbe, as long as your not just dealing in firearms, Im sure keeping the best one and giving father the other does not constitue Firearms Dealing, taking an ad out in the paper stating old rifles and leaving your phone # probably would

From the ATF Q and A site
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm

What does "engaged in business" mean?

The term "engaged in business," as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

[27 CFR 178.11]

I would think you would be ok if your not making a livelyhood out of this

[pmcbooks]

ATF regs occasionally appear to me to be intentionally nebulous.

I've had my C&R 3 years and am looking at the renewal form as I type.

Included on the form are two boxes to fill in:

1. How many have you bought with your license?

2. How many have you disposed of?

My personal guideline is to be able to fill out those two boxes without having one's sphincter twitch closed.

Recall that, as with the original application, your local CLEO will get a copy of your filled out renewal. Difference is that there's now numbers on it.

Why not just let your license lapse and then reapply later? No reason to be providing extra information.

[cxm]

The transaction is not legal if you buy the gun with the intent to re-sell it.

Dealing in firearms is not allowed for holders of type 3 (C&R) licenses.

While you are not likely to get caught, for $10 is would not be worth it to me.

FWIW

Chuck


Okay Guys I got my C&R and have a question. I am thinking about getting a Swiss K31 and if I buy two, I get them for 10.00 less each gun. Well I do not need two of them, but can I order two pick out the best one and sell the other one? This way I get mine cheaper and I get to pick the best one for my collection. If I sell it at cost then I am not making any kind of profit. My dad wants one so I would sell it to him.

Now is this legal? The way I take it is not and told my dad I did not want to do this just in case I get audited because I did not want anything to create questions.

Now if he had his C&R would it be okay to do this?

[jeremywills]

i will suggest this, if you have any doubt which you obviously did right from the start of this post

then dont do it, like this guy just said

10 bucks ain't worth it

best of luck sir