[Bill B.]

Does anyone have any info as to what handgun air marshals are issued, caliber, and ammo they are required to use?

[Tomcat1066]

It's my understanding is that they are using Glasers for ammo, but I don't know about weapon or caliber.

Tom

[HighVelocity]

I "made" an Air Marshall on a flight last year. He stood up to let the window passenger get up to use the lav and when he sat down (big guy) his gun hung up on the armrest and printed real bad through his sport coat which he declined to remove when the flight attendant offered to hang it up. Wool Sport coat, hot as blazes summer in North TX. :scrutiny:
Anyway, it was obvious that he was carrying a revolver. Probably an L or N frame.
I pushed the call button and the flight attended came over and I informed her that the guy in 3B was armed. She got this bug eyed look and went to the phone to call the cockpit.
She came back and TOLD me, it's OK, he's an air Marshall.

[Cueball]

They are issued SIG's now. 220's I believe. I know one of the air marshals.

[BsChoy]

they use p229's in 357 sig with 125 gr gold dots....a family member was in the marshalls for a bit

[migoi]

about this. In the aftermath of the shooting in Miami, I've heard two different reports say they used .357 Magnums. On a report about FAM training though the person moving through the plane was using a semi-auto.

I was trying to figure out what semi-auto uses .357 Mag. If they are being issued a revolver it would make sense to train using a revolver. My best guess it they are actually using 357Sig and the reporters just muffed it.

migoi

[greyeyezz]

they use p229's in 357 sig with 125 gr gold dots....a family member was in the marshalls for a bit

Correct.

[Universal]

Last I knew they were indeed issued SIG 229s .357SIG caliber sidearms. My understanding is that they do not have a choice. I heard the reporter on CNN say that the Marshals use .357 Magnum which is a mistake. The training video clearly showed the marshal firing a SIG.

[greyeyezz]

Air marshals carry automatic .357 SIG Sauer pistols with a 12-round cartridge. The bullets are hollow-point and expand on entering a body. "It's one of the most high-powered rounds you can put in a weapon," the second air marshal said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-07-air-marshals_x.htm

[Bill B.]

Interesting info from all! Thanks for the replies and the link. It made for some informative reading! :)

[autoload]

Air marshals carry automatic .357 SIG Sauer pistols with a 12-round cartridge. The bullets are hollow-point and expand on entering a body. "It's one of the most high-powered rounds you can put in a weapon," the second air marshal said.


12 round cartridge? :rolleyes:

[Super Trucker]

I spoke with a DeSantis holster rep. at a gun show about a year ago and he said, they are issued a DeSantis Sky Cop (cross draw) holster to carry their 229 Sig chambered in .357Sig. It sounded reasonable to me.

[cdsdss]

One of my co-workers tranferred over from the FAM's where he'd been working since they began reassembling them post-9/11. They carry Sig P229s in .357 Sig. He didn't like the job much, but did say that their shooting instruction was amazing.

[Double Naught Spy]

I "made" an Air Marshall on a flight last year. He stood up to let the window passenger get up to use the lav and when he sat down (big guy) his gun hung up on the armrest and printed real bad through his sport coat which he declined to remove when the flight attendant offered to hang it up. Wool Sport coat, hot as blazes summer in North TX. :scrutiny:
Anyway, it was obvious that he was carrying a revolver. Probably an L or N frame.
I pushed the call button and the flight attended came over and I informed her that the guy in 3B was armed. She got this bug eyed look and went to the phone to call the cockpit.
She came back and TOLD me, it's OK, he's an air Marshall.

This all seems rather odd given Air Marshalls don't typically carry revolvers.

I am sort of surprised that you spotted a person with a gun on the plane and did not immediately do anything other than press the call button. Either the guy was a good guy or he was a bad guy. Given a 50-50 chance (not great odds), it seems like it might have been most prudent to get up and approach the flight attendant about the matter as opposed to waiting for her to come to you.

You intimate that part of the give-away that the guy was an Air Marshall was that he declined letting the flight attendant hang it up his sportscoat and that is was made of wool that would be hot as blazes during the summer. So, since you thought the coat didn't match the weather conditions, it was out of place and the only real reason to keep it on would be to keep the gun concealed?

Actually, wool in coats can be cooler than many other fabrics. So a wool coat really would not necessarily be out of place. Additionally, if it was a warm/hot coat to wear, he may have wished to keep it on to stave off cabin chill.

[benEzra]

Air marshals thrust into spotlight
By Thomas Frank, Mimi Hall and Alan Levin, USA TODAY


They travel in plainclothes and carry some of the most lethal bullets made.

[snip]

Air marshals carry automatic .357 SIG Sauer pistols with a 12-round cartridge. The bullets are hollow-point and expand on entering a body. "It's one of the most high-powered rounds you can put in a weapon," the second air marshal said.

Boy, for a national paper, they sure garbled that...

One of the highest-powered handgun rounds under 10mm bore diameter, maybe...

[cxm]

I think the SIG 229 is the current issue auto, but I think the guys who have been there for some time can still carry their older guns... including some M66 S&Ws.

FWIW

Chuck



This all seems rather odd given Air Marshalls don't typically carry revolvers.

I am sort of surprised that you spotted a person with a gun on the plane and did not immediately do anything other than press the call button. Either the guy was a good guy or he was a bad guy. Given a 50-50 chance (not great odds), it seems like it might have been most prudent to get up and approach the flight attendant about the matter as opposed to waiting for her to come to you.

You intimate that part of the give-away that the guy was an Air Marshall was that he declined letting the flight attendant hang it up his sportscoat and that is was made of wool that would be hot as blazes during the summer. So, since you thought the coat didn't match the weather conditions, it was out of place and the only real reason to keep it on would be to keep the gun concealed?

Actually, wool in coats can be cooler than many other fabrics. So a wool coat really would not necessarily be out of place. Additionally, if it was a warm/hot coat to wear, he may have wished to keep it on to stave off cabin chill.

[Double Naught Spy]

I didn't suggest is was out of the question, just odd, that an air marshall would be spotted with a large revolver. The odds are against it is all.

It is also a bit bizarre that the flight attendant so willingly revealed the guy as an air marshall. They are supposed to travel in semi-clandestince circumstances whereby the only folks that know they are there are the marshalls themselves and the flight crew. Since the marshalls are slated specifically with protecting the flight crew and the aircraft, the attendant compromised the marshall's position on the plane by admitting he was a marshall. She could have given several other LEO-related answers that would justify the guy having a gun as part of his duty, but in a manner that did not peg him as an expert of protecting the aircraft. For example, she could have discounted him simply as an local police officer going for training, involved in the transportation of evidence for a trial, etc. etc. etc.

Part of the reason the flight attendants are not let in on the little secrets all the time is because of stupid foul-ups such as what was described. The Captain controls the plane and apparently he can opt to give out said information, but having the attendent identify the man as a marshall was very short sighted. If HighVelocity was a terrorist, he certainly would have had the jump on one, maybe the only one, air marshall on the plane and that air marshall would potentially be the first victim.

[ShelbyV8]

The flight crew know who the marshalls are and where they are setting without checking. It was probably some other LEO flying on official duty.

[ghost squire]

Correct, they have to be informed of this so they don't serve them alchoholic beverages IIRC. Probably among other reasons.

[isp2605]

Correct, they have to be informed of this so they don't serve them alchoholic beverages IIRC. Probably among other reasons.

When you fly armed you are told who else is on the plane who is also armed.

[nyresq]

I think the SIG 229 is the current issue auto, but I think the guys who have been there for some time can still carry their older guns... including some M66 S&Ws.

FWIW

Chuck


nope, they all caryy the 229 with gold dot 357s..... trust me...

[carebear]

I caught the end of NPR's TOTN the other day and the ADA who prosecuted Richard Reid (now a "security consultant" :rolleyes: ) ended his spiel with the same old "special ammo to prevent decompression".

I was too late to get on the air but I did end up sending an email.

[IZinterrogator]

I figured it was a Sig 229 when I saw footage of them training and noticed a bar code on the side of the slides. :rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

Go get them, carebear!:)

Yes, the public lie about FAM ammunition is particularly offensive to me. Why can't they just talk about their superior training rather than defraud the public about ubersecret ammo?

Heck, when this happened DoJ had a couple of stooges call WLS (890AM, Chicago) and make inane claims about FAM ammo ["'it's like a shotgun, can't miss, and the pellets fall to the ground and don't hurt anyone":rolleyes:]

[gazpacho]

All that special bunk about "special ammo" is for the sheep who ride in the plane behind the cockpit. It makes them happy. The ammo the shoot isn't all that different than what we can buy off of the shelves, and it will put holes in the side of the plane quite nicely.

FWIW G. Gordon Liddy says he was part of the team that initially set up the FAM program during the Nixon years, while he was at the FBI. It was his recommendation that armed the initial FAMs with large frame 357s.

[Michael Courtney]

It is also a bit bizarre that the flight attendant so willingly revealed the guy as an air marshall. They are supposed to travel in semi-clandestince circumstances whereby the only folks that know they are there are the marshalls themselves and the flight crew. Since the marshalls are slated specifically with protecting the flight crew and the aircraft, the attendant compromised the marshall's position on the plane by admitting he was a marshall.


The marshall compromised his own position by allowing his handgun to be spotted.

Once this happened, the only reasonable response was to let the passenger know the armed passenger was allowed to carry on board. Sure, they could have cobbled up a lie about some other kind of law enforcement officer, but there isn't a big difference between one law enforcement officer and another in the eyes of a bad guy. As far as I know, this is still the United States, and we should have a preference for telling our citizens the truth, especially when they point out that someone on a plane is carrying a gun.

Michael Courtney

[cxm]

Would like to trust you on this...but I know a FAM who has worked there since the 1980s....

He carries a M66.

FWIW

Chuck

nope, they all caryy the 229 with gold dot 357s..... trust me...

[isp2605]

Would like to trust you on this...but I know a FAM who has worked there since the 1980s....
He carries a M66.
FWIW
Chuck

He's definitely a rare breed if he's been working since 1980s. On 09/11 there were only 50 FAM.

[carebear]

There's a difference between the new, improved air marshall program and the one that's been in place since the '70's. The training and equipmant etc. have certainly changed and maybe formalized but there have been "air marshals" since I was a baby.

I'm not sure (this is a general impression from somewhere in the past) but IIRC it was originally not so much a full-time job as an additional tasking for certain federal officers.

[ShelbyV8]

In the 80's they did carry the S&W 66, but since 9/11 it is sigs and 357 sig Gold Dot. Myth Busters proved that a bullet hole doesn't cause rapid decompression in a aircraft.

[nyresq]

He's definitely a rare breed if he's been working since 1980s. On 09/11 there were only 50 FAM.


33... but who's counting.

[mindpilot]

They Use M60's with 500 Rounds of chain ammo tucked into their suits.

[22luvr]

I work as a flight coordinator and would like to verify a few things in this thread. As a ground security and safety officer, I've talked to many Air Marshalls because it is my job to do just that. The Federal Air Marshalls carry Sigs and Speer Gold Dot ammo; equipment you can buy for yourselves at any gun store.

So much for mythical weapons and ammo.

Also, The FAM's normally early-board the aircraft and will personally introduce themselves to the flight crew, both pilots and flight attendants. Before the boarding of any flight, the captain will have a security briefing with the crew and any FAM's, if they are on board. That way, there are no surprises in mid-flight, should there be an incident.

In the initial phase of the program, they traveled in coat and tie. Because so few passengers fly that way, they now wear practically anything they wish, so as to blend in with the crowd.

Any law enforcement officer who is authorized to fly with a loaded handgun also checks in with the flight crew. The flight crew knows where they are sitting on the aircraft and the gate agent also lists their names and exact seat numbers on the departure report that is given to the crew prior to pushback.

The myth that puncturing the cabin with a bullet causes catastrophic decompression has been de-bunked also. It takes a major structural failure to cause the kind of decompression depicted in movies.

Also FAM's carrying revolvers? I seriously doubt that claim.

I hope this clears a few things up; Your comments are always welcome...

[Michael Courtney]

In the 80's they did carry the S&W 66, but since 9/11 it is sigs and 357 sig Gold Dot. Myth Busters proved that a bullet hole doesn't cause rapid decompression in a aircraft.

Myth Busters does some interesting stuff and makes some relevant contributions. However, I hope that we don't consider any Myth Buster demonstration the last work in any ballistics discussion. We need to subject Myth Busters to the same level of scientific scrutiny and skepticism as any result claiming to be scientific.

Michael Courtney

[Mr_Moore]

about this. In the aftermath of the shooting in Miami, I've heard two different reports say they used .357 Magnums. On a report about FAM training though the person moving through the plane was using a semi-auto.

I was trying to figure out what semi-auto uses .357 Mag. If they are being issued a revolver it would make sense to train using a revolver. My best guess it they are actually using 357Sig and the reporters just muffed it.

migoi

There is the glock:
http://www.glock.com/_357.htm .357 sig

The desert eagle
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/desert_eagle/Desert_Eagle.html
.357 mag

Future Smith and Wesson
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/12-06-2005/0004228300&EDATE= probably .357 sig.

But you are right, it was probably a sig.

[22luvr]

Whoops, let me clarify. I don't know much about mythbusters but my claim for cabin penetration not causing catastrophic decompression comes from many pilots and professional aircraft maintenance personnel, not from the TV show "mythbusters."

Also forgot to mention caliber: .357 SIG for FAM's. Would I like to have one of those SIG's? You bet and sometime before I draw my last breath I may be able to afford one.

[migoi]

if I am wrong. Mr. Moore, I'm pretty sure that both the GLOCK and the future S&W run on the .357SIG cartridge, not the .357Magnum round. It would be a pretty unusual beast for a semi-auto to chamber and fire a revolver round. The second link sent me to a airsoft page, can't comment on that.

Some more on this interesting cartridge can be found http://www.handguninfo.com/Archive/www.Pete-357.com/9mm.357.compare.htm

When I said I thought it was probably a .357Sig I was referring to the cartridge, not the platform.

migoi

[Mr_Moore]

if I am wrong. Mr. Moore, I'm pretty sure that both the GLOCK and the future S&W run on the .357SIG cartridge, not the .357Magnum round. It would be a pretty unusual beast for a semi-auto to chamber and fire a revolver round. The second link sent me to a airsoft page, can't comment on that.


Thanks for catching that second link error. It now points to information about the desert eagle in .357 Magnum.

The other 2 are sigs and I am pretty sure thats what the air marshalls were carrying.

[BrokenArrow]

The FAM duty load is the 125g GDHP/LP (Gold Dot Hollow Point/Limited Penetration) catalog no. 53918. The regular 125g GDHP is catalog no. 54234.

[greyeyezz]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/greyeyezz/spgd.png

[carebear]

Unless the bullet design is drastically different that looks like a way to boost price without changing a darn thing.

25 fps at the muzzle difference for a worst case scenario (in the air) 100 foot shot?

You'll get that variation from air temp. :rolleyes:

[Newton]

Correct, they have to be informed of this so they don't serve them alchoholic beverages IIRC.

Can't they just say "No thanks".

FWIW - Being an Air Marshall has to be one of the most boring, tedious jobs in the world.

[Roboshred]

He went thru the pilot training course in AZ this time last year and was
issued a H&K 40 cal. He is now a federal marshall and quite capable of
defending his passengers and crew.He was capable of doing it before, at
least now he can use a firearm. ;)

[carebear]

He went thru the pilot training course in AZ this time last year and was
issued a H&K 40 cal. He is now a federal marshall and quite capable of
defending his passengers and crew.He was capable of doing it before, at
least now he can use a firearm. ;)

I'm pretty sure there's a substantial difference between being an authorized armed pilot and an actual Air Marshal.

Though, barring a return to the pre-60's mentality, I'm happy both are aboard.

[Roboshred]

I'm pretty sure there's a substantial difference between being an authorized armed pilot and an actual Air Marshal.

Though, barring a return to the pre-60's mentality, I'm happy both are aboard.
Correct, he's not an air Marshall. He is a pilot deputized as a fed. marshall which
now allows him to carry on his flight. His course was 2 weeks long and done somewhere at a base in AZ. He was a naval aviator (tomcat pilot) prior to his current career.

[carebear]

Didn't realized they were deputized. Cool.

:)

[nyresq]

Correct, he's not an air Marshall. He is a pilot deputized as a fed. marshall which
now allows him to carry on his flight.

No, he's not deputized at all. He is a sworn "Federal Flight Deck Officer". The FFDO's have their own status as a federal officer.

They are NOT Air Marshals, nor are they "deputized" as Air Marshals. Although some will tell you they are air marshals, they are not. They are not law enforcement officers outside of an airplane, and are not authorized to carry a firearm as a federal officer off duty and have no legal standing as a LEO when off duty if they get involved in something.

[Top Gun Supply]

No, he's not deputized at all. He is a sworn "Federal Flight Deck Officer". The FFDO's have their own status as a federal officer.

They are NOT Air Marshals, nor are they "deputized" as Air Marshals. Although some will tell you they are air marshals, they are not. They are not law enforcement officers outside of an airplane, and are not authorized to carry a firearm as a federal officer off duty and have no legal standing as a LEO when off duty if they get involved in something.

This is correct.

[cxm]

Very rare... though the number I heard was they were down to <80 marshals... but not very differen statistcally.

FWIW

Chuck


He's definitely a rare breed if he's been working since 1980s. On 09/11 there were only 50 FAM.

[migoi]

a newly minted armed flight deck officer out at the range when I was RSO about 3 weeks ago. This flight deck officer did pretty well. In talking with him, he stated that in his duties as an armed flight deck officer he was not allowed to leave the cockpit armed. If he had to leave, he locked his firearm in the lockbox.

Apparently, the armed flight deck officers are the absolute last line of defense as someone is breaking down the door.

As a side note, he too had an H&K .40 (I forget the model) DAO, I believe.

migoi