Legally, what is the difference between a straw buyer and a person who gifts a gun?


PDA






Croyance
December 9, 2005, 01:44 AM
This is purely theoretical, since I (unfortunately) am neither in a financial situation to give a gun as a gift or know people who would give me one as a present.
But the basic underlying act is the same: purchasing a gun and then giving another person possession/ownership.
Legally is there a difference? Is there a spot on the form when purchasing for an FFL to mark this? If so, what if the buyer decides later that (s)he wants to give the gun to another person?
Is there really any difference between this and a private sale between two individuals?

If you enjoyed reading about "Legally, what is the difference between a straw buyer and a person who gifts a gun?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ZenMasterJG
December 9, 2005, 01:49 AM
If I understand correctly, a straw purchase is when you buy a gun for someone who cannot legally purchase one themselves. If you have no reason to believe that there is anything that would prevent someone from buying a gun, then the buy is probably O.K. Buying a gun for someone who cannot own one for any reason (they commited a felony, etc) would be a straw purchase. I believe its also a straw purchase if someone else pays you to buy the gun or gives you the money to buy it.

S_O_Laban
December 9, 2005, 01:52 AM
I'm not sure I can anwser your question completly but I think the rub comes in when you consider the buyer's intent. If he buys to own then decides to gift =okay. If he buys with intent to give = not okay. A mighty fine line that's hard to enforce or prove if you ask me.

only1asterisk
December 9, 2005, 01:53 AM
One's legal, one's not.

Seriously, it's a matter of intent.

David

jsalcedo
December 9, 2005, 01:55 AM
The key question is on the 4473.

Are you the actual buyer of this firearm.

If it is your money and your decision to buy it there is no straw purchase.

If you decide to give the gun away as a present to a non-restriced person
after the transaction that is your business.

A straw purchase is when Joe Crackhead with a criminal record gives money to a straw purchaser for the sole purpose of avoiding the NICS check and any other laws and regulations restricting him from a legal gun transaction.

SteelyDan
December 9, 2005, 02:10 AM
My understanding, too, is that it's an "intent" and "facts and circumstances" kind of thing. Which means that there will necessarily be some gray areas. As a general rule, I think it's perfectly acceptable to buy a gun as a gift for another person, unless there is some coertion or you have some reason to believe that person cannot legally possess a gun or might use it in a crime.

Phantom Warrior
December 9, 2005, 02:33 AM
I believe its also a straw purchase if someone else pays you to buy the gun or gives you the money to buy it.


That's the most definable criteria. If someone else gives you the money and you buy it for them it is illegal, even if the person you are buying for can legally posess a handgun.

It's very gray if you buy a gun and then sell it to someone right after you buy it. I asked that question in the context of buying and then selling to an 18-21 year old and no one could give me a straight answer.

Short answer, the government sucks.

Ryder
December 9, 2005, 02:41 AM
My youngest kid is 18 now. I was thinking of buying him pistol as a gift for Christmas. That's something he can't legally do for himself over the counter. He can buy used (private sale), but not new. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Lupinus
December 9, 2005, 03:34 AM
What if you wanted to buy a handgun for someone under 21 as a gift? For instance if my mother walked into the gun shop and bought me a handgun (I'm 20) and then gave it to me, I wonder if that is legal or not? Wonder if it would still count as a gift if I were to be with her to pick it out since she knows squat about guns....it be nice if the goverment didn't overcomplicate matters.

redneck2
December 9, 2005, 06:41 AM
Whole idea behind "straw" purchase was getting guns for people that can't have them legally. Bypass the NICS

IIRC, you can personally transfer a personal firearm to someone who can legally own one (in Indiana). If you knowingly sell to someone that can't legally own (a minor or felon), then you're guilty of a felony.

In some states, a person between 18-21 can own a handgun but can't buy one. I think you could legally be given one as a gift, at least by a family member. There are different laws (Again in Indiana) for familty members.

geekWithA.45
December 9, 2005, 07:29 AM
I would also imagine that state transfer laws would color the distinction.

For example, the NJ statute has no provision for transfer of arms among family members, even spouses.

PA, OTOH, does have provisions for transfers of handguns between spouses and parents/children. Some states decline to regulate transfers between eligible people entirely, and others, like PA decline to regulate transfers of certain categories, such as longarms.

TarpleyG
December 9, 2005, 08:38 AM
What if you wanted to buy a handgun for someone under 21 as a gift? For instance if my mother walked into the gun shop and bought me a handgun (I'm 20) and then gave it to me, I wonder if that is legal or not? Wonder if it would still count as a gift if I were to be with her to pick it out since she knows squat about guns....it be nice if the goverment didn't overcomplicate matters.
I think in FL, you can own a handgun at 18 but cannot buy it yourself, carry it, or buy ammo for it (how stupid is that?). Check the state's website for confirmation.

Greg

HankB
December 9, 2005, 08:57 AM
I believe its also a straw purchase if someone else pays you to buy the gun or gives you the money to buy it.
If a kid saves up and uses his money to purchase a firearm, but Dad has to fill out and sign the paperwork, I suppose that's technically a "straw purchase" . . . but things like this happen all the time.

I've never heard of someone being prosecuted for a "straw purchase" unless 1) the firearm is handed over to someone who's not allowed to have guns, such as a convicted felon; 2) the ultimate purchaser commits some crime; or 3) the BATmen have put together a phony "sting" where Agent Schmuckatelli buys a gun, walks outside, gives it to someone else, and then they both go in and arrest the dealer.

MechAg94
December 9, 2005, 09:41 AM
I think within the family, it depends on if the kid can legally possess the firearm or not. If not, then the firearm shoudl remain in the ownership of the parent and then the kid can use it (legally of course). Once the kid can legally possess the firearm personally, then the ownership can be official. :)

Personally, the only thing my Dad ever gave me was a BB gun. All the guns growing up belonged to my Dad except for one .22 rifle that my older brother bought with his own money. I didn't buy any guns of my own until after I got out of college in my mid-20's. (I am a long way from that now.) :)

BigFatKen
December 9, 2005, 10:10 AM
I read most new police officers have to have Mom buy their weapon for them. Isn't that nuts?

eastwood44mag
December 9, 2005, 11:39 AM
I read most new police officers have to have Mom buy their weapon for them. Isn't that nuts?

Scary/moronic comes to mind more.

Coronach
December 9, 2005, 12:01 PM
Well, you need to be 21 years old to be a LEO in Ohio, so I don't know why that would ever be the case here. I suspect that is also true in most states.

Mike

rock jock
December 9, 2005, 12:10 PM
I went to my local gunshop yesterday. It was filled with people buying firearms as Christmas presents. No problem at all. In fact, my wife bought a Kimber for me several years ago for Christmas. However, I had to find the buyer on the Internet, give her explicit instructions on payment and transfer through a local FFL, etc. Now, I just buy a gun and let her know later that she gave me a gun for Christmas, birthday, Groundhog Day, Arbor Day........:D

Father Knows Best
December 9, 2005, 12:17 PM
Whole idea behind "straw" purchase was getting guns for people that can't have them legally. Bypass the NICS

IIRC, you can personally transfer a personal firearm to someone who can legally own one (in Indiana). If you knowingly sell to someone that can't legally own (a minor or felon), then you're guilty of a felony.

In some states, a person between 18-21 can own a handgun but can't buy one. I think you could legally be given one as a gift, at least by a family member. There are different laws (Again in Indiana) for familty members.

It's not quite that simple. If you purchase a handgun with the intent to immediately resell it to someone else, you may violate the law, even if that someone else could legally have purchased it himself. In other words, if you bought it for the express purpose of transferring it to another known individual, you have arguably violated the law. It doesn't matter whether the money changes hands before or after you make the purchase, or whether the other individual is legally able to purchase or possess the firearm.

For example, lt's assume we have two buddies named Bob and Dave. Both are upstanding citizens, 30 years old, no criminal records and otherwise able to purchase and possess firearms. Dave, however, believes that gun confiscation may come someday and doesn't want any paperwork that would show what, if any, firearms he has. Dave also wants a new Glock. So Dave says to Bob, "buy that Glock and sell it to me." Bob agrees to, and purchases the Glock for $550. Bob fills out the 4473, undergoes the NICS and gets printed. He walks out with the new Glock, drives to Dave's house, and gives him the gun. Dave gives Bob $550. They crack open some Buds and sit down to watch the game.

Illegal straw purchase? I think so.

txgho1911
December 9, 2005, 12:29 PM
If you want a new as in "NEW" handgun it will have a paper trail. No legal way around it intentionaly. As soon as my significant other gifts me with a new arm I will have one paperfree to me but not to my house. My dad could give me one also but that would be FTF and probably illegal as far as interstate commerce goes. If I ask my rich nieghbor to give me a gun and he does!! Well that usualy doesn't happen. If I am to busy to wait out the waiting period imposed on me for another "delayed" nics responce I will just have to give up that purchase and find another one closer to home.

scout26
December 9, 2005, 12:30 PM
For example, lt's assume we have two buddies named Bob and Dave. Both are upstanding citizens, 30 years old, no criminal records and otherwise able to purchase and possess firearms. Dave, however, believes that gun confiscation may come someday and doesn't want any paperwork that would show what, if any, firearms he has. Dave also wants a new Glock. So Dave says to Bob, "buy that Glock and sell it to me." Bob agrees to, and purchases the Glock for $550. Bob fills out the 4473, undergoes the NICS and gets printed. He walks out with the new Glock, drives to Dave's house, and gives him the gun. Dave gives Bob $550. They crack open some Buds and sit down to watch the game.

Illegal straw purchase? I think so.


But I hate Glocks.......:scrutiny: So then I'd have to go re-sell it to get either a 1911 or a nice shotgun.

Scout26 (AKA Dave) ;)

BTR
December 9, 2005, 12:53 PM
Under federal law it is illegal to buy a gun to sell to someone else, or with someone else's money, even if the person can legally own the gun. You may change your mind later and sell the gun if you choose.

Under federal law, it is perfectly legal to buy a gun with the intention of giving it as a gift to someone else.

hso
December 9, 2005, 12:58 PM
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html

straw purchase made by someone eligible for someone ineligible

gift is not a straw purchase if the person who will receive it is eligible

straw purchase if it's going to the 15 year old convicted auto theft felon on probation, but legal if it's going to your non-felon grandfather

Nathanael_Greene
December 9, 2005, 03:47 PM
Okay, how about this situation?

A non-FFL-holding individual has a handgun for sale. He receives a message from potential buyer who says, "I can't pick up the gun myself, but my cousin can get it from you, and then he's going to send it to me. Send him your contact information, and you two can work out a deal."

Should seller:

Complete the transaction?

Ignore the message?

Politely decline?

Rudely decline?

Double the asking price?

It seems to me that seller is at risk of being an accessory to a criminal conspiracy in illegal handgun trafficking, knowingly participating in a straw purchase that may include illegal shipment of a handgun, potentially across state lines.

Or is that an overly paranoid attitude?

jsalcedo
December 9, 2005, 05:25 PM
The seller should decline.

If he wants to stay in business that is.

waterhouse
December 9, 2005, 06:33 PM
Okay, how about this situation?

A non-FFL-holding individual has a handgun for sale. He receives a message from potential buyer who says, "I can't pick up the gun myself, but my cousin can get it from you, and then he's going to send it to me. Send him your contact information, and you two can work out a deal."

If you aren't an FFL and you have no reason to suspect that the buyer is a felon/misdemeanor crime of domestic abuse you can sell the gun any way you want. If you do think that the person you are selling to has a felony/misdemeanor crime of domestic abuse on their record, you are breaking the law by completing the sale.

I'm pretty sure that legally the less questions you ask the safer you are, as a non-FFL seller.

As to straw purchases, common misconception is that it only applies to buying a gun for someone who can't legally own one. Father Knows Best is correct: any time you purchase a gun with the intent to sell it to another individual, you are making a straw purchase. FWIW, I talked to an ATF agent, and according to him there is no "straw purchase" law . . .that's just what they call it. The crime is misrepresenting yourself on form 4473 when you answer "yes" to question 11.a) "are you the actual buyer of the firearm listed on this form?"

As mentioned, all this comes down to intent. If you buy a series 80 1911 today at 9 a.m. for yourself and at 3 p.m. you see a series 70 in a pawn shop that you "have to have", you can go sell your series 80 to your friend that same day. When you bought the series 80, you bought it for yourself.

As for gifts, so long as no money/barter changes hands, you can give a gun to anyone who can legally own one. You can even buy it with the intent of giving it to your souce/brother/daughter/good buddy.

As you can imagine, the intent thing is probably pretty hard to prove.

Hkmp5sd
December 9, 2005, 07:48 PM
straw purchase made by someone eligible for someone ineligible

As stated previously, a straw purchase in one made by someone eligible for someone else, whether they can legally possess a firearm or not.

I think in FL, you can own a handgun at 18 but cannot buy it yourself, carry it, or buy ammo for it (how stupid is that?).

In Florida, a person under 21 cannot purchase a handgun from a federally licensed dealer. A person 18-20 may purchase a handgun from a private party.

Croyance
December 9, 2005, 08:15 PM
it be nice if the goverment didn't overcomplicate matters.
Elected officials pass more and more redundant laws to looks busy, like they are doing something to "change things for the better".
Bureacracy is like a tumor. It just grows and grow & there is no such thing as a truely benign one.

jsalcedo
December 9, 2005, 08:24 PM
delete

jsalcedo
December 9, 2005, 08:26 PM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html

logical
December 10, 2005, 07:23 AM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html
All the good movies get re-released I guess...but it usually takes more than 8 hours.

All that tax money I send in and the best they can do is a cartoon that doesn't move?

jsalcedo
December 10, 2005, 10:06 AM
I think you click on the picture not the text below it.

If you enjoyed reading about "Legally, what is the difference between a straw buyer and a person who gifts a gun?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!