[ArmedBear]

Hey Angelenos...

Loading any extra magazines?

Any observations of the "vibe"? Have the Hollywood types (including Tookie's fellow Crip Snoop Dogg) managed to stir up sentiment to Rodney King levels? Or is this going to just blow over?

[MDG1976]

I too am very interested to see how the natives react to the announcement. This is Arnold's big test.

[ArmedBear]

I too am very interested to see how the natives react to the announcement. This is Arnold's big test.

I'm in San Diego, so I'm far enough away to be safe. But there are friends and family a lot closer to the potential epicenter(s) of any violence.

If I were in Long Beach, I'd be thinking this through.

[dasmi]

It could potentially be very interesting, but I hope it isn't.

[Sportcat]

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/5503561/detail.html?rss=la&psp=news

Council Members Urge Calm Over 'Tookie' Williams Decisions

LOS ANGELES -- Four Los Angeles City Council members called for calm Friday as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger considers whether to grant clemency to Crips co-founder and death row inmate Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

Images: Hearing | Images: Exhibits Displayed
Images: Rallies | Video: Defense Urges Clemency

With less than four days to go before Williams' scheduled Tuesday execution, sporadic-yet-credible threats of civil unrest have prompted the council members and representatives from the city and county human relations commissions to ask religious leaders to emphasize a message of peace during weekend services.

"We picked up information that led us to believe that there were some planned and intentioned acts of violence that could occur in the wake of the decision or the execution planned for Stan "Tookie" Williams," Robin Toma, executive director of the Los Angeles County Human Relations Commission, said during a news conference at City Hall.

Toma declined to list the affected communities or elaborate on the threats.

Councilman Bernard Parks said he spoke earlier today about potential civil unrest with Los Angeles Police Department Deputy Chief Earl Paysinger of the South Bureau.

Parks said Paysinger assured him the LAPD would remain "vigilant" this weekend, but there was no immediate need to put the city on tactical alert.

"All you need is a few to disrupt the entire city," Parks said, referring to the events that led to the 1992 riots. "You don't need large numbers of people to start a problem."

Parks, along with council members Jan Perry, Herb Wesson and Bill Rosendahl, said they are asking religious leaders to deliver a message of peace in the days leading up to Williams' scheduled lethal injection execution at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday at San Quentin Prison.

"Regardless of your personal views on Mr. Williams' situation, I believe we all share a desire to ensure that people find outlets in which they can respectfully and positively voice their opinions," Perry said. "I believe that our religious institutions provide guidance and leadership to thousands in our community, and it is times like these that we must turn to each other for support."

Williams, now 51, was sentenced to death in 1981 after he was found guilty of murdering four people during two separate robberies two years earlier.

Williams has maintained his innocence.

Attorneys for Williams and the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office each delivered 30 minutes of arguments to the governor yesterday, with prosecutors insisting that Williams deserved to die for the slayings and defense lawyers arguing that he has renounced gang violence.

The governor could issue a decision at any time.

If granted clemency, Williams would serve life in prison without parole.

In California, only the governor has the authority to commute a death sentence to life in prison. Ronald Reagan was the last California governor to grant clemency in 1967.

If clemency is denied, Parks said he will ask religious leaders to open their churches and synagogues for community discussions.

Rosendahl added: "I'm standing here as a white guy that represents the 11th District who realizes it impacts all of us, we're all in this dialogue together. In my district, black and white and brown and Asian together are mixing and discussing this issue. It's of great concern to all of us."

The Crips street gang, founded in 1971 in South Central Los Angeles, went on to become one of the most violent and widespread in the United States.

Family members of Williams' victims say he should be put to death for his actions.

But Williams's supporters say he has reformed because he spent much of the past 24 years writing children's books and teaching at-risk youth about the dangers of gangs. Supporters also have nominated him for Nobel prizes, for peace and in literature.

"For those who believe in redemption, they should remember that for the past 13 years, Mr. Williams has been talking about peace, not violence," Councilman Herb Wesson said. "I think the biggest tribute they could pay to him is to ensure that whatever happens ... they should be respectful to how he lived his life for the last 13 years."

Since being condemned to death, Williams has renounced his gang past, been the subject of a cable TV movie called "Redemption" starring Jamie Foxx. He was nominated in 2000 for a Nobel Peace Prize by Swiss Parliament member Mario Fehr for the anti-gang work he has done from his 9-by-4-foot cell.

Calls for clemency have been mounting from religious and community leaders and celebrities such as Foxx, the rapper Snoop Dogg, actor Mike Farrell and activist Bianca Jagger.

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People President Bruce Gordon also supports clemency, calling Williams "our secret weapon to help young African-Americans avoid gangs."

[ArmedBear]

See, here's the thing. I really don't think that the sentiments that drove the Rodney King Riots are as strong in this case. The 1992 riots were the culmination of years of tension. But there are probably enough people who might join in if someone else starts trouble. Hell, in 1992, there was TV footage of a group of white sorority chicks looting, even, so "joining in" seems to be pretty easy.

But Rodney King wasn't the co-founder of the Crips, a gang that controls whole neighborhoods. And he wasn't alleged to still have some say over what the Crips do. He was a lone idiot.

[Kurush]

I didn't realize there was that much concern about possible rioting. What are the rioters going to be chanting, "Justice, no peace"? :barf:

Arnold was stupid to even grant a clemency hearing.

[Lupinus]

Could be interesting. If nothing else it might lead to a lot of problems or attacks on police. Which of course the NAACP will credit as simple frustration and a product of opresion.

[HighVelocity]

I don't get it. The man was convicted of murdering 4 people and sentenced to die. Who cares what he did in prison? He's not there to be rehabilitated and released, he's there to be put to death.

[c_yeager]

My money says he wont be executed, so there wont be any riots. Arnold doesnt have the resolve to make a decision that would be unpopular among the unwashed public. He will simply say to himself "the guy is still going to be in prison so he cant hurt anyone else, and I can make the liberals like me if I grant clemency, no downside".

[dasmi]

c_yeager,
I hate to say it, but I think you're probably correct.

[ReadyontheRight]

(In Ah-Nold Voice)

I haff spent zee tiiiime to refiew zee Toookie Villiams case.

I haff decided zat I vill execute him myselff.

[bogie]

I'm not a big fan of capital punishment. Too darn final. I think we need to keep the fellow around, show him to juveniles... He fronts a good story, and if he can keep the preaching going, hey...

Of course, I think his cage should be smaller...

[trickyasafox]

note to self: if im ever going to rob and kill, start popular gang first.

[Rezin]

(In Ah-Nold Voice)

I haff spent zee tiiiime to refiew zee Toookie Villiams case.

I haff decided zat I vill execute him myselff.
LMAO>>>>>

And I also agree with c.yeager.....

[Alex45ACP]

(In Ah-Nold Voice)

I haff spent zee tiiiime to refiew zee Toookie Villiams case.

I haff decided zat I vill execute him myselff.

hahahahaha

[Biker]

I got a sawbuck that says Tookie is gonna bite the big green one. Any takers?
Biker

[rock jock]

LOS ANGELES -- Four Los Angeles City Council members called for calm Friday as Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger considers whether to grant clemency to Crips co-founder and death row inmate Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

With less than four days to go before Williams' scheduled Tuesday execution, sporadic-yet-credible threats of civil unrest have prompted the council members and representatives from the city and county human relations commissions to ask religious leaders to emphasize a message of peace during weekend services.

"We picked up information that led us to believe that there were some planned and intentioned acts of violence that could occur in the wake of the decision or the execution planned for Stan "Tookie" Williams," Robin Toma, executive director of the Los Angeles County Human Relations Commission, said during a news conference at City Hall.

Toma declined to list the affected communities or elaborate on the threats.

Councilman Bernard Parks said he spoke earlier today about potential civil unrest with Los Angeles Police Department Deputy Chief Earl Paysinger of the South Bureau.

Parks said Paysinger assured him the LAPD would remain "vigilant" this weekend, but there was no immediate need to put the city on tactical alert.

"All you need is a few to disrupt the entire city," Parks said, referring to the events that led to the 1992 riots. "You don't need large numbers of people to start a problem."

Parks, along with council members Jan Perry, Herb Wesson and Bill Rosendahl, said they are asking religious leaders to deliver a message of peace in the days leading up to Williams' scheduled lethal injection execution at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday at San Quentin Prison.

"Regardless of your personal views on Mr. Williams' situation, I believe we all share a desire to ensure that people find outlets in which they can respectfully and positively voice their opinions," Perry said. "I believe that our religious institutions provide guidance and leadership to thousands in our community, and it is times like these that we must turn to each other for support."

Williams, now 51, was sentenced to death in 1981 after he was found guilty of murdering four people during two separate robberies two years earlier.

Williams has maintained his innocence.

Attorneys for Williams and the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office each delivered 30 minutes of arguments to the governor yesterday, with prosecutors insisting that Williams deserved to die for the slayings and defense lawyers arguing that he has renounced gang violence.

The governor could issue a decision at any time.

If granted clemency, Williams would serve life in prison without parole.

In California, only the governor has the authority to commute a death sentence to life in prison. Ronald Reagan was the last California governor to grant clemency in 1967.

If clemency is denied, Parks said he will ask religious leaders to open their churches and synagogues for community discussions.

Rosendahl added: "I'm standing here as a white guy that represents the 11th District who realizes it impacts all of us, we're all in this dialogue together. In my district, black and white and brown and Asian together are mixing and discussing this issue. It's of great concern to all of us."

The Crips street gang, founded in 1971 in South Central Los Angeles, went on to become one of the most violent and widespread in the United States.

Family members of Williams' victims say he should be put to death for his actions.

But Williams's supporters say he has reformed because he spent much of the past 24 years writing children's books and teaching at-risk youth about the dangers of gangs. Supporters also have nominated him for Nobel prizes, for peace and in literature.

"For those who believe in redemption, they should remember that for the past 13 years, Mr. Williams has been talking about peace, not violence," Councilman Herb Wesson said. "I think the biggest tribute they could pay to him is to ensure that whatever happens ... they should be respectful to how he lived his life for the last 13 years."

Since being condemned to death, Williams has renounced his gang past, been the subject of a cable TV movie called "Redemption" starring Jamie Foxx. He was nominated in 2000 for a Nobel Peace Prize by Swiss Parliament member Mario Fehr for the anti-gang work he has done from his 9-by-4-foot cell.

Calls for clemency have been mounting from religious and community leaders and celebrities such as Foxx, the rapper Snoop Dogg, actor Mike Farrell and activist Bianca Jagger.

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People President Bruce Gordon also supports clemency, calling Williams "our secret weapon to help young African-Americans avoid gangs."
Dang blissninnies. I've got an idea. Why don't they fry this POS and then let the law-abiding citizens arms themselves with AR's and deal with the rioters?

[bratch]

kind of a dupe
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170201

[Beetle Bailey]

I'll be sure to stay home that night. . . :uhoh:

[Jeff White]

Since no one wants to talk about Strategies and Tactics, I'm moving this to Legal and Political.

Jeff

[Camp David]

Let's see... based on history...

If this guilty Tookie guy in California receives the execution which the jury mandated, all his black supporters riot, tear up the city, and the law will inevitibly look the other way and accept such a response as normal...

However, if whites start a Church in Waco, Texas, the government firebombs the church, burns all the women and children, and says it is a justified response.

Your country? Yup....

Fed up yet?

[RealGun]

I for one hope the execution proceeds. It is absurd for it to have taken 25 years and for there to be any notion of innocence at this point. Those who do riot will do so without really giving a damn about Tookie Williams.

[Mannlicher]

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/5503561/detail.html?rss=la&psp=news

looks like its an intentional 'stirring of the pot' to influence the outcome of Arnold's decision about the murderous thug.
Of course, the consequences, if Williams is executed could be pretty bad. However, even this is a 'good thing' to his supporters, because it will solidify their hold on the hood, and their ability to use the threat of 'unrest' to push their agenda the next time they need to play their trump card.

Personally, if I lived anywhere around LA, I would have locked and loaded long ago.

[Sindawe]

Parks said Paysinger assured him the LAPD would remain "vigilant" this weekend, but there was no immediate need to put the city on tactical alert. 1. I have to ask, will that be the vigilance of those sworn to uphold the law, or the vigilance of 13 some years ago when the LAPD turned tail and bravely ran away when faced with danger? :scrutiny:But Williams's supporters say he has reformed because he spent much of the past 24 years writing children's books and teaching at-risk youth about the dangers of gangs2. Why by golly, I suppose the qualifies me for redemption as well....

"See the bright warm sunshine, the lights the grass the the cows eat to give us milk so that we might grow up big and strong."

"See the noble cow, who gives her life so that you and I might enjoy a tasty burger on the 4th of July. In honor of the founding of our great democracy."

"See the sparkling fireworks, so grand on our nations holiday. Say, we should have another burger, and never mind the skulking figure in the bushes."

:barf: :barf: :barf:Dang blissninnies. I've got an idea. Why don't they fry this POS and then let the law-abiding citizens arms themselves with AR's and deal with the rioters?I concur. Hang the :cuss:. In public. Those "hip gangster wannabes" who wish to riot in protest are welcome to join Tookie on his ride with the Boatman across the River Styx.:fire:

[mindpilot]

This guy is nuthing but a pathetic liar a fleabag that uses manipulation to cloud his past. Fry the Guy, let the civil unrest begin and lock up those psychos too and bring full charges against them. This isnt a civil liberties issue or race issueor I FOUND GOD issue. This a-hole shot 4 people in the back and the Grim Reaper is a callin. Inject him slowly and painfully.

[Don't Tread On Me]

Tookie deserves the needle, perhaps worse.

L.A. is about due for senseless mass riots.

LAPD is overdue for using extreme brute force to suppress the people.


The conditions are all there....will the execution be a catalyst though?

[cracked butt]

Fry the SOB then shoot the looters.

[mindpilot]

Fry the SOB then shoot the looters.

i just hope I can get a plane ticket to LA in time for the Season Opener :evil:

[carp killer]

LAPD is overdue for using extreme brute force to suppress the people.


I seriously doubt that. Lawsuits ya know. They will do like they did before. Retreat and contain and call in the NG.

[mindpilot]

Round trip tickets to LA out of Chicago going for $225!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OPEN SEASON BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Oldtimer]

#1: Historically, riots and "civil disobedience" have taken place during the hot and humid summers. Williams is to be given his due less than two weeks before Christmas. Add to that, the execution is to take place on a week day, not a week end.

#2: The majority of Williams' supporters are WEALTHY WHITE LIBERALS and "do-gooder" celebrities that wouldn't DARE riot or loot in their upper-class neighborhoods OR in the poor areas!

#3: Williams DENOUNCED the gang life, so the Crips no longer look upon him as "one of their own".

#4: Williams co-founded the Crips in 1971, and most of the current crop of Crips (Hey, that almost rhymes!) don't even KNOW who "Tookie" is, or what he did.

So, keeping this "on topic", since I live within 20 miles of the City of Los Angeles, I'm preparing....
to listen to the news radio during the late hours of December 12. The execution will take place at 12:01 on December 13. The first few hours after the execution should give a fairly good indicator as to whether anything is going to happen. Other than that, all I can say is that I'm ALWAYS prepared for just about anything!

Lastly, there are Crip gangs in almost EVERY major city, and even in smaller communities, so ALL of you should be prepared, "just in case"!

[DunedinDragon]

So then...

What exactly IS the difference between gang violence and terrorism???

[DunedinDragon]

What???!!!! You REALLY think these thugs have the mental capacity to plan anything past their next buy of crack? Sheesh...most of these guys will be too spaced out from the night before to even THINK about rolling out of bed by noon, not to mention probably 95% of them don't even know what the current date is...

Doesn't stop me from being locked and loaded and trying to contain my giggling just in case is DOES happen though....;)

[armoredman]

I am always locked and loaded. Maybe I'll carry another spare magazine...probably not.

[M-Rex]

Could be interesting. If nothing else it might lead to a lot of problems or attacks on police. Which of course the NAACP will credit as simple frustration and a product of opresion.

I wonder how many THR members will be happy to hear this?:confused:

[Biker]

Actually, I believe that Old Timer's first point is telling in that rioting is a warm weather activity and it's hard to get in a real murderous mood just before Christmas. Nobody wants to be in jail on Christmas Day.
Biker

[xd9fan]

ahh maybe rioters in North Dakota will care about Christmas Day....I doubt very much the thugs in LA give a rats a$$ about the calender.......They'll trash the place so the Fed Govt can build them a new beatuiful "FREE" COMMUNITY:barf:
oh and a statue of Tookie in the center of this beautiful community....as the new Jesse Jackson

[caduckgunner]

[QUOTE=Oldtimer]#1: Historically, riots and "civil disobedience" have taken place during the hot and humid summers. Williams is to be given his due less than two weeks before Christmas. Add to that, the execution is to take place on a week day, not a week end.QUOTE]

The lazy ass thugs need to go riot and loot............... I mean Christmas shopping. What could be a better time to do it.:banghead:

[carebear]

Those "hip gangster wannabes" who wish to riot in protest are welcome to join Tookie on his ride with the Boatman across the River Styx.:fire:

2 points for Tool reference.

[El Tejon]

Oldtimer, doesn't Kauleeforneeah's Med climate allow year round rioting?:D

I really don't think Ray-ray and Ice Dog care about how many days of Christmas shopping are left and they are definitely not worried about studying for final exams.:D

Get your gear on and sorted, more ammo, plenty of mags, plenty of water, allow for losing power and water, get fire extinguishers charged. Then, get small! Good luck out there.:)

[Silver Bullet]

Any chance we can bus the rioters to San Francisco ?

[Old Dog]

I find it interesting that certain of the white celebrities on Tookie's bandwagon are saying that Tookie is more valuable alive to let the young ones know that there is no future in gang life ... As though, should he be executed, that wouldn't be an effective example of why young folk should stay away from the gangs?

Uh, Carebear? Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindawe
Those "hip gangster wannabes" who wish to riot in protest are welcome to join Tookie on his ride with the Boatman across the River Styx.

2 points for Tool reference.Am I just out of the loop here? I thought that was a reference to Greek mythology?

[org]

Uh, Carebear? Am I just out of the loop here? I thought that was a reference to Greek mythology?


It is.

[R.H. Lee]

Any chance we can bus the rioters to San Francisco ?
That's the best comment in this thread. As far as Tookie's 'rehabilitation', that's only possible when his victims are up walking and talking again, instead of in their graves. Actions have consequences. He forfeited his own life when he murdered those people.

[Sindawe]

Am I just out of the loop here? I thought that was a reference to Greek mythology? It was both. See here (http://toolshed.down.net/lyrics/aenimamaster.html), track 13 - Ænema for the other reference. Which nicely summarizes my feelings on L.A.

I really need to stop posting after drinking the Friday night bomber. :D

[Old Dog]

Ah, yes ... see what you mean. I tend to share those feelings about L.A. Oldest daughter's a Tool fan ... Guess I'm more of a '70s/'80s rocker ...

[mindpilot]

Here is a fact I wanted to post to all of you. FOR or AGAINST the DEATH Penalty.

On Average because of higher security, political appeals, time spent looking for any loop holes by defense lawyers, and just maintenaince it costs $32,500 a year per Inmate that is on deathrow. and these statistics were taken from a 1990 report.

I am against abortion and use to be for the death penalty, but now I question it sometimes, who are we to play God and take a life. But then again its far different from abortion.

[migoi]

Ole Tookie there murdered 4 people with a shotgun. They had their lives cut short for his own greed and sense of power. We owe it to them to remove any possibility that he will ever experience any pleasure on this earthly plane.

It's not about Tookie...it's about his victims.

migoi

[mindpilot]

I understand that and thats why I am not against people choosing this kind of punishment

[bjbarron]

Even the moonbat libs want him kept in prison for life.

How does that jive with 'rehabilitation'? If a man can be rehabilitated, shouldn't he be able to look forward to freedom at some time.

Life Sentence = We don't believe you can be rehabilitated

Fry him and save the money of keeping his worthless carcass alive until he is eventually killed in prison over a pack of cigarettes. Bury Mumia West in the same Potters Field grave as Mumia East.

[carebear]

Uh, Carebear? Am I just out of the loop here? I thought that was a reference to Greek mythology?

Greek myth analogies are commonplace among this literate a crowd. German metal? That's a little more novel in my book. :evil:

[orionengnr]

Quote:
"I understand that and thats why I am not against people choosing this kind of punishment."

(Flame suit: ON)

I choose not to violate the law.

I choose not to murder people in cold blood.

If it were my choice, I'd say, hook him up, pre-empt Monday Night Football, and let's all share a "special moment" on network TV. Let one of the victim's next of kin flip the switch.

Deterrent? Maybe.
Entertainment? Definitely.
Vengeance? Absolutely.
Justice: <Absolutely>

Please pardon the momentary detour, we now return you to The High Road...

[Helmetcase]

I really think you guys underestimate the black community. While it's unfortunate that another gang banger bites the dust, they know the guy got what was coming to him. Rodney King for all of his faults wasn't a gang banger. He didn't kill anybody. People, yes even black people, know the difference. What happened in 1992 happened because a lot of other people who'd been on the wrong side of some bad police/community interaction could relate. And were pissed. It ain't that way with Tookie.

I'd be for clemency if he had fessed up. But even though they have him dead to rights, he refuses to come clean. That hurts him.

That said...I don't think his death is going to be much of a deterrent to young potential Tookies. You might be able to justify the DP based on eye for an eye type grounds, but I'd argue it's deterrent effects are pretty non existent.

[Standing Wolf]

Criminals usually don't learn from their own mistakes, still less others'.

That said™, the death penalty is a statement of moral values, a way of making it clear to one and all that the penalty for certain extremely hideous, heinous crimes is one's life.

I personally doubt Schwarzenegger would feel comfortable with the very idea of moral values.

[mountainclmbr]

I will be out there the week after the scheduled date and will be staying near LAX airport. Has this area been bad in the past? If things get bad what would be my options? I could drive and take a handgun and shotgun. Might have to follow Kalifornistan laws once i cross over the border. But if the police run I would just say "screw their laws". Not much chance I could cancel the trip even if things got bad. I usually am reduced to just a knife and pepper spray in my checked luggage when I must travel to the PRK.

[Bob F.]

I'm WAAAYY across the country, and I've "kicked it up a notch!" Maybe I'm just paranoid. Normally just keep a junker 9mm Mak in the truck when I'm at work. Next week my regular carry piece will go with an extra mag. Picked up some extra 12ga slugs and 00. Just an excuse, not at all likely to be a problem around here.

Stay safe, and alert.
Bob

[mindpilot]

Is it just me or are there others that wish the San Andreas fault would just split and dump the westerm half of the fault into the ocean?????:evil:

[fjolnirsson]

You might be able to justify the DP based on eye for an eye type grounds, but I'd argue it's deterrent effects are pretty non existent.

And I'd say the deterrent effects are stellar. As in, it deters the recipient from ever doing it again.

[NineseveN]

i just hope I can get a plane ticket to LA in time for the Season Opener :evil:

Meet me at the airport? :evil:

[ziadel]

Greek myth analogies are commonplace among this literate a crowd. German metal? That's a little more novel in my book. :evil:


TOOL is not german metal, they're quite american, the lead singer was actually a west point drop out :evil:

[Gillster]

i just hope I can get a plane ticket to LA in time for the Season Opener
Thanks for the reminder that soda out the nose burns:)

[carebear]

My mistake, I assumed they were German due to a couple times I've heard them sing non-english lyrics in some songs.

I might have some mental mix-up with Rammstein going on as well.

I usually listened to hate music in the dive locker, half-doped up on MEK and toluene fumes.

[Norton]

I'm WAAAYY across the country, and I've "kicked it up a notch!" Maybe I'm just paranoid. Normally just keep a junker 9mm Mak in the truck when I'm at work. Next week my regular carry piece will go with an extra mag. Picked up some extra 12ga slugs and 00. Just an excuse, not at all likely to be a problem around here.

Stay safe, and alert.
Bob

Bob,

I'd think any bangers would be way out of place up in your neck of the woods. If the boys where you are are as hard as some of the guys I've met in Greenbrier and Monroe Counties I doubt they'd have a chance :D

[Ellie]

On Average because of higher security, political appeals, time spent looking for any loop holes by defense lawyers, and just maintenaince it costs $32,500 a year per Inmate that is on deathrow. and these statistics were taken from a 1990 report.


I wonder how much it costs just to keep somebody in a high security prison, though?

I don't like the death penalty much because it turns the side of right into monsters - it's so premeditated and ritualized and just vile - but I don't know what else can be done when somebody has such disrespect for other humans. Except arm every citizen and train them to protect themselves so that killers don't have easy victims.

The scary thing is, I don't think that the death penalty is much of a deterrant. I've looked into the eyes of people like that and my it seemed to me that they don't care if they live or die. It's like they're zombies - scariest thing I've ever seen.

I could be wrong and that may not always be the case - one hears about the 'guy next door' who seems normal and turns out to be a creep, but that's what I saw - cold hell.

[DunedinDragon]

The scary thing is, I don't think that the death penalty is much of a deterrant. I've looked into the eyes of people like that and my it seemed to me that they don't care if they live or die. It's like they're zombies - scariest thing I've ever seen.


And that's why the guys in the old west had it right.

Short rope,
tall tree,
a necktie party for all to see.

Made you think twice about stealing that horse!!!

[svtruth]

roofs probably have sand bags and supplies on them.

[mindpilot]

I wonder how much it costs just to keep somebody in a high security prison, though?

I don't like the death penalty much because it turns the side of right into monsters - it's so premeditated and ritualized and just vile - but I don't know what else can be done when somebody has such disrespect for other humans. Except arm every citizen and train them to protect themselves so that killers don't have easy victims.

The scary thing is, I don't think that the death penalty is much of a deterrant. I've looked into the eyes of people like that and my it seemed to me that they don't care if they live or die. It's like they're zombies - scariest thing I've ever seen.

I could be wrong and that may not always be the case - one hears about the 'guy next door' who seems normal and turns out to be a creep, but that's what I saw - cold hell.

I agree very much with you. Its like looking into the Eyes of the Devil and sayin "Well now your goin to HELL" its like..ummm been there done that.

[1911 guy]

Well, more accurately, I work on the crappy side of Cleveland. Occassionally I see "ECC" spraypainted here and there, supposedly means East Coast Crips. Maybe I'll have to go back to tossing an EBR in the back seat along with a sidearm. And I thought I'd managed to get past that. :(

[c_yeager]

#1: Historically, riots and "civil disobedience" have taken place during the hot and humid summers. Williams is to be given his due less than two weeks before Christmas. Add to that, the execution is to take place on a week day, not a week end.


I think your probably right.

Is anyone else amused by the fact that the conditions that make rioting more or less likely are the same that result in a good turn out for the Democrats on election-day?

[mindpilot]

to me I dont think it matters. The SCUM SUCKERS that do the rioting are the same pathetic losers that have NO Jobs to go to, nothing to really live for, dont care about society or the next generation, and are an anchor to the community in the first place.

Kinda like them nice folks at PETA. :evil: ..they always have these rally's in the middle of the day on weekdays.....dont these people work?????????????????????

[Cousin Mike]

Just my opinion, I really don't think anyone outside of L.A. is going to riot over this guy. I really don't know why anyone in L.A. would either, although I wont profess to know what will happen there. L.A. is a crazy place. I think loading up if you live anywhere outside of L.A. is a little unnecessary. As pointed out before, he's denounced the gang, which means the Crips gang has no respect for this guy, nor would any rival gang. Also, there isn't much here that signals riot to me. The Rodney King incident was so different, it's really apples and oranges. There is no massive sense of injustice here, this isn't an innocent unarmed man being pummeled by multiple officers. This is not the acquittal of the officers in question, or something that stinks with injustice and racism... This man, Williams, is a criminal.

We in the so-called 'black community' have to live with the sh*t these gangs do everyday - no one likes to see kids killing eachother, or for their neighborhoods to be unsafe. The anti-execution sentiment you hear is mostly, if not completely, due to the fact that he is now an anti-gang, anti-violence advocate, and writes books for children on that subject. Many people think that's a good (and important) thing, regardless of one's personal opinion on the man. I do have a question to pose to the THR jury though:

If this man has written childrens books on the dangers of gang life, and he continues to show some type of positive influence, why execute him and not someone like Charles Manson? Manson has never done anything positive with his prison time, yet he isn't being executed for equally horrible crimes. Why is that, and is it fair?

BTW, for clarity, I am 100% pro death penalty.

Also, consider that he has been nominated by multiple people/organizations for the Nobel Peace Prize for his childrens books. Even a nomination for that is not commonplace to say the least. Maybe those books have saved more lives than Williams took. Just a thought.

[dasmi]

If this man has written childrens books on the dangers of gang life, and he continues to show some type of positive influence, why execute him and not someone like Charles Manson? Manson has never done anything positive with his prison time, yet he isn't being executed for equally horrible crimes. Why is that, and is it fair?
No, it is 100% unfair. You are correct, if Tookie dies, Manson should as well. Manson should've gotten a ride on the Electric Pony years ago.

[M-Rex]

No, it is 100% unfair. You are correct, if Tookie dies, Manson should as well. Manson should've gotten a ride on the Electric Pony years ago.

Agreed. But Manson was sentenced under Rose Bird and the Supremes. She was anti-death penalty.

Also...for others...a clarification.

The death penalty is not intended to be a deterrent.

It is a punishment. Any deterrent value is icing on the cake. Please try to remember that when you go on diatribes about how the death penalty has no deterrent value.

[WillBrayJr]

I think everyone who has replied to this thread is making something out of nothing. What makes this execution any different from the rest?

I'll tell you one thing, I'd rather take the needle over spending even one year in prison.

[itgoesboom]

As pointed out before, he's denounced the gang, which means the Crips gang has no respect for this guy, nor would any rival gang.

That is an illusion. If you think that the crips have no respect for Tookie, then you need to research it a little more. Despite publid apologies for creating the crips, he has not renounced his gang membership and still associates with Crips members in jail.

He also had enough clout to bring the crips and the bloods together in 2004 for the "Tookie Protocol" designed to end the violence between the Crips and the Bloods. Doesn't do anything to end violence against non-gang members, though. Ofcourse, Tookie had also mentioned in one of his interviews that he was sorry for the loss of all the deaths of black kids who were killed by gangs, but he convienently left out all the white kids, hispanic kids, asian kids who were killed?




If this man has written childrens books on the dangers of gang life, and he continues to show some type of positive influence, why execute him and not someone like Charles Manson? Manson has never done anything positive with his prison time, yet he isn't being executed for equally horrible crimes. Why is that, and is it fair?

Two part question, so a two part answer:

1. Tookie is going to die because he is a murderer. He shot Albert Owens in the back, after robbing his store, after Owens had submitted and was lying prone on the floor. There was no reason to kill him, other than prove a point to his fellow gang members (minutes earlier they had failed to rob another store....Tookie wanted to show them how it is done. That and that Tookie was a racist bastard. From an article on Tookie on Wikipedia:

Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.” Coward claims that Williams bragged about killing Owens. Williams said, “You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him.” Williams then made gurgling or growling noises and laughed about Owens’ death.

After that he went to a motel, broke down the door, shot a 76 year old man, his 63 year old wife, and and 43 year old daughter.

Thats why Tookie will be put to death, or should be put to death.

2. For your second part, the part about why Manson won't be put to death, that is because he can't be. :cuss: That is because in 1972, the California Supreme Court ruled that the death penalty was cruel and unusual in the way that it was carried out.

That is unfortunate, as Manson also very much deserves to die. But after the law changed, they couldn't just reinstate his death penalty, so it is still life with the possibility of Parole in 2007, which he won't get.

But, just because the State is not allowed to execute one murderer, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to execute another who was convicted and sentanced to death.


Also, consider that he has been nominated by multiple people/organizations for the Nobel Peace Prize for his childrens books. Even a nomination for that is not commonplace to say the least. Maybe those books have saved more lives than Williams took. Just a thought.

Yeah, so what? Yassir Arafat won the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize. He was still a terrorist. Being nominated by some left-wing group for an award doesn't make on a good person.

Also it is impossible to know that he was nominated because the Nobel Prize Commision doesn't release who was nominated for 50 years or if someone who has allegedly been nominated meets the criteria. We won't know for 50 years if he has been nominated.

I.G.B.

[mindpilot]

I think everyone who has replied to this thread is making something out of nothing. What makes this execution any different from the rest?

I'll tell you one thing, I'd rather take the needle over spending even one year in prison.


Have you ever BEEN in prison? This guy lives like a king, gets interviews, prolly has a posse at his beckon, free food, pumps iron, reads books, free medical, dental, he got off EZ last 25 yrs

[Joe45acp]

Itgoesboom, could not have said it better myself. Thank You

Pep

[WillBrayJr]

Have you ever BEEN in prison? This guy lives like a king, gets interviews, prolly has a posse at his beckon, free food, pumps iron, reads books. <Non-Highroad stuff removed by Art>

Nope never been in prison. I've been in jail for two non-violent misdemeanors. My father has been in jail and prison practically his entire life.

[Bopleo]

I'm not a big fan of capital punishment. Too darn final. I think we need to keep the fellow around, show him to juveniles... He fronts a good story, and if he can keep the preaching going, hey...

Of course, I think his cage should be smaller...

Final is good and prison is not a real punishment, especially for this guy.
He is comfortable on death row and has it made in prison.

[Cousin Mike]

That is an illusion. If you think that the crips have no respect for Tookie, then you need to research it a little more. Despite publid apologies for creating the crips, he has not renounced his gang membership and still associates with Crips members in jail.

How do you know all this? Do you know Tookie personally, or are you quoting a media source, like I was about his nomination for the Nobel prize? If so, why is your source more credible than mine?

Ofcourse, Tookie had also mentioned in one of his interviews that he was sorry for the loss of all the deaths of black kids who were killed by gangs, but he convienently left out all the white kids, hispanic kids, asian kids who were killed?

This seems like a less-than genuine point to me. First of all, we know that white kids don't have a serious gang problem in their communities nationwide. There are white kids in gangs, sure - but it's not a massive problem for them like it is throughout the country for black kids. Gangs are a black problem mostly, let's not be PC about it. Asian gangs aren't even worth a mention anymore. Latinos have serious gang problems in some areas of the country though. This was only added to give credentials to your "Tookie was a racist" theory, which I have never heard before, nor the quotes you cited.


Also it is impossible to know that he was nominated because the Nobel Prize Commision doesn't release who was nominated for 50 years or if someone who has allegedly been nominated meets the criteria. We won't know for 50 years if he has been nominated.

I.G.B.

And why would every single media source imagineable quote that if there was absolutely no truth to it? I wont respond to comments about Yasser Arafat, but the fact that anyone could organize a 'truce' between gangs is also a positive thing. And what do you mean, as far as him not solving violence issues for non-gang members? What do you want the guy to do, fix the Israeli/Palestinian issue? Stop the genocide in Sudan? Fix the 3rd world economy, perhaps? Um, news flash! He was a gangbanger. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm guessing the only thing this guy is an expert on is gangs. The point is, he's doing SOMETHING. I don't care who he talks to in prison, as long as kids read those books and keep their little a$$es out of gangs.

It's very clear you don't like this guy, I'm sure none of us do. I never defended Tookie or questioned his guilt, I believe the man is guilty as hell. Do you want my honest opinion (since you never bothered to ask)? I think even if he was framed and none of it is true (which is a longshot), the gang he started has done enough damage that I think he should fry. If he did do it, that's just more to fry him for, but I will say this. The man has maintained his innocence, and people DO get wrongly convicted. Especially guys that look like Tookie, since you want to use race as an anchor for your arguement. The fact of the matter is, you or me, the media or the jury, none of us know weather he did it or not. We have our opinions, but only he and God know what really happened, end of story. You can dispute that all you want, but unless you were there, you have no idea what happened. What he did admit to - which is starting the Crip gang, that alone is worth frying him for. Don't address me like a Tookie supporter, I'm far from it.

My only question was shouldn't his anti-gang message to children be something to consider when thinking of sparing his life? I never even stated a personal view of the case. The only opinion I gave is that there is no reason for anyone to riot over this guy. Don't know why this is such a hot botton for ya', but I guess you just get flamed around here as a matter of policy for going against the grain and presenting a different view. If it lets you sleep a little easier at night, I've never heard anyone even talk about this crap except here. Black folks ain't thinkin about Tookie. Sleep easy. If you really think the whole country is going to turn into a Katrina type scenario over this guy, you have some seriously preconcieved notions of certain people, and nothing I can say is going to change that.

Not much to say on Manson, we agree about it.

Based on the link below, the names of 3 of the 4 people Tookie killed were Tsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang, and Yee Chen Lin. Going out on another limb here, but something tells me these people were not white. So much for that "Tookie was a racist" crap.

[Mongo the Mutterer]

I said this earlier on another post:

For those who feel this thug Tookie:

a. is Innocent

b. should not be executed

please read this (http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf)... the LA county DA's pleading to the Governor.

Oh, and if you want to riot, go ahead. The first guy who comes down the street has his forehead turned into a canoe. Second guy? same...

There won't be a third guy. The Rodney King riots were stopped in some areas by Korean shop owners with twelve gauges on the roofs of their businesses. More of the same will work...

[itgoesboom]

How do you know all this? Do you know Tookie personally, or are you quoting a media source, like I was about his nomination for the Nobel prize? If so, why is your source more credible than mine?

DA's report as well as the California Department of Corrections response to the clemency request. If you do a little research you can find the one from the DA as well. The one from the Corrections department was online, but was pulled offline when a State Senator dissaproved of a state agency going against the clemency requst.

If Tookie was serious about stopping gang violence, you would think he would help the Police with information on how to stop it. You know, telling the Police how the gangs communicate, the tactics they use or to help get other violent gang members off the street by testifying against them. He has refused to do any of that.


This seems like a less-than genuine point to me. First of all, we know that white kids don't have a serious gang problem in their communities nationwide. There are white kids in gangs, sure - but it's not a massive problem for them like it is throughout the country for black kids. Gangs are a black problem mostly, let's not be PC about it. Asian gangs aren't even worth a mention anymore. Latinos have serious gang problems in some areas of the country though. This was only added to give credentials to your "Tookie was a racist" theory, which I have never heard before, nor the quotes you cited.

Point being, Tookie is not sorry about the Whites, Asians or Hispanics killed by the gang violance of the gang that he created or the gang warfare that was a result of him creating that gang. That was my point. In his interviews, he only mentions being sorry for the Black kids. By stating he is sorry for the Black kids, that is intentionally leaving out the others that have been killed by the gang violence. That sounds like racism to me.

The quotes that I gave you earlier came from the eyewitness to the first murder (the first quote). He is one of the witness's that got Tookie convicted, and he himself was a Crip member as well. The second quote (about the sounds he made) came from Tookie's own brother.


And why would every single media source imagineable quote that if there was absolutely no truth to it?

Ever work in the media? Ever work for a Newspaper? Guess what. I have. For 8+ years at this point, I have freelanced in the media as a photographer, and have been privy to many newsroom conversations regarding many things. I would highly recommend you not always trusting the media, who many times parrot any information given to them.

The facts are these:

1. I can nominate anyone towards Nobel Peace prize. But my nomination doesn't mean jack squat, but technically, it's a nomination. The fact that it is a non-qualified nomination is beside the point. So a nomination has to come from a qualified source.

2. As policy, the Nobel Peace prize commission won't reveal who has been nominated for a Nobel Prize until 50 years later. That is their policy. So for anyone to claim that he is nominated, well, they don't have the proper information, unless:

3. The person who nominates the "nominee" comes forward. Ofcourse, even in this case, the Nobel Prize commission can neither confirm nor deny that the person was actually nominated, and even if he was nominated, they can't report if he actually met the criteria.

It is possible that he has been nominated, and there are reports that he has, from several places. But there is no confirmation of that, and so it can't be reported as fact, not ethically.

I wont respond to comments about Yasser Arafat

Too bad, that might get us closer to agreeing on things if we could see where you are coming from with regards to known terrorist

the fact that anyone could organize a 'truce' between gangs is also a positive thing. And what do you mean, as far as him not solving violence issues for non-gang members? What do you want the guy to do, fix the Israeli/Palestinian issue? Stop the genocide in Sudan? Fix the 3rd world economy, perhaps? Um, news flash! He was a gangbanger. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'm guessing the only thing this guy is an expert on is gangs. The point is, he's doing SOMETHING. I don't care who he talks to in prison, as long as kids read those books and keep their little a$$es out of gangs.

Meaning his only concern was the violence between the two gangs. It never addressed, as far I can see, gang violence towards others who are not in gangs. It doesn't address the violence that the gangs do towards the other people in their community.

It was essentially a cease-fire saying, don't shoot the other combatants, but don't worry about the innocent civilians, they are still open game.

And the fact that he could organize such a truce shows that he still has close ties to the gangs and is still respected.

It's very clear you don't like this guy, I'm sure none of us do. I never defended Tookie or questioned his guilt, I believe the man is guilty as hell. Do you want my honest opinion (since you never bothered to ask)? I think even if he was framed and none of it is true (which is a longshot), the gang he started has done enough damage that I think he should fry. If he did do it, that's just more to fry him for, but I will say this. The man has maintained his innocence, and people DO get wrongly convicted. Especially guys that look like Tookie, since you want to use race as an anchor for your arguement. The fact of the matter is, you or me, the media or the jury, none of us know weather he did it or not. We have our opinions, but only he and God know what really happened, end of story. You can dispute that all you want, but unless you were there, you have no idea what happened. What he did admit to - which is starting the Crip gang, that alone is worth frying him for. Don't address me like a Tookie supporter, I'm far from it.

I can agree with you on this. Atleast on most of it.

The witnesses who helped get Tookie convicted were his fellow crips, as well as his own brother.

Tookie ofcourse is relying on people not actually researching the material from his trial: He claimed that the police found "not a shred of tangible evidence, no fingerprints, no crime scenes of bloody boot prints. They didn't match my boots, nor eyewitnesses. Even the shotgun shells found conveniently at each crime scene didn't match the shotgun shells that I owned."

Ooops. Actually, they were matched to Tookie's shotgun. There were no exclusionary markings. They matched perfectly.

Tookie, or atleast his supporters, also claim that his jury was all-white. It wasn't. There was one Hispanic, and one Asian, and surpise surprise, there was also an African American.

With regards to possible innocence, he has gone through 24 years worth of appeals to various courts in the State of California. None of those courts have found any question of his quilt, even though one court recommended giving him clemency. Even that court found no issues with his guilt. I think that says something right there.

And I never said I suspected you of being a Tookie supporter. Your first post didn't really indicate that. But you asked questions, and I answered them. You also made a claim that he has severed his gang ties. I posted something that disputed that. The California Department of Corrections happens to agree with me on that point.

My only question was shouldn't his anti-gang message to children be something to consider when thinking of sparing his life?

NO!

I never even stated a personal view of the case. The only opinion I gave is that there is no reason for anyone to riot over this guy. Don't know why this is such a hot botton for ya', but I guess you just get flamed around here as a matter of policy for going against the grain and presenting a different view.[quote]

Never flamed you. The only thing I gave an actual disagreement over was whether or not he has severed his gang ties.

Regarding everything else, you asked questions, and I posted answers, never once posting anything derogatory towards you. My post was intended to be educational, and I take pride in being very thorough and accurate.

[QUOTE=Cousin Mike]If it lets you sleep a little easier at night, I've never heard anyone even talk about this crap except here. Black folks ain't thinkin about Tookie. Sleep easy. If you really think the whole country is going to turn into a Katrina type scenario over this guy, you have some seriously preconcieved notions of certain people, and nothing I can say is going to change that.

I am not worried about it personally. Won't affect me one way or another. But some people seem to be worried, including the Los Angeles City Council. Four of them have come out urging calm if Tookie is executed.

Not much to say on Manson, we agree about it.

Doesn't suprise me, I doubt there are a dozen people on this Earth that would support that POS!

Based on the link below, the names of 3 of the 4 people Tookie killed were Tsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang, and Yee Chen Lin. Going out on another limb here, but something tells me these people were not white. So much for that "Tookie was a racist" crap.

Yup, they were Asian. But as I said before, Tookie made the comment that he killed the first guy because he was white, and he wanted to kill white people. The fact that the other 3 people were Asian doesn't mean squat, except that they are also dead.

Ofcourse, when taken in context of Tookies appology to the "young Black kids" who have died, once again he left out 3 Asian people that he murdered as well.

Guess he isn't sorry for them because they weren't Black.

I would call that racism.

I.G.B.

[Bob F.]

Norton: Southern West Virginia is pretty much southern West Virginia! You're right; not much to worry about here. (Nearly had some lynchings on 9/11.)

Don't really have strong feelings one way or the other about Tookie. Except he should NEVER go free unless he's proven innocent! Re: the Yangs, they might as well have been white because they weren't black.

The real point is that those who riot don't need to be Tookie supporters, they're just thugs looking for an excuse. Only problem locally would be if one happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Cosmoline]

Well from all the reports I've heard of interviews of the folks on the street who actually KNEW this guy, they uniformly say he was a stone cold killer and don't want him back. If there is a riot it will be a riot brought into being by left wing anti death penalty sumbags.

[Cousin Mike]

Point being, Tookie is not sorry about the Whites, Asians or Hispanics killed by the gang violance of the gang that he created or the gang warfare that was a result of him creating that gang. That was my point. In his interviews, he only mentions being sorry for the Black kids. By stating he is sorry for the Black kids, that is intentionally leaving out the others that have been killed by the gang violence. That sounds like racism to me.


Doesn't sound like racism to me, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see it as simply realizing the organization he founded has been a stitch in the side of mainly the black communities of the country, and I don't think that him leaving out other races is as intentional as you seem to think. Matter of opinion I guess.

The quote that I gave you earlier came from the eyewitness to the first murder. He is one of the witness's that got Tookie convicted, and he himself was a Crip member as well.

More on this in a second.

Ever work in the media? Ever work for a Newspaper? Guess what. I have. For 8+ years at this point, I have freelanced in the media as a photographer, and have been privy to many newsroom conversations regarding many things. I would highly recommend you not always trusting the media, who many times parrot any information given to them.

I'm the last person to trust the media on much of anything. It's good to know you actually have some personal insight into the way they operate, though it's not much of a secret. Not much else to say about that one



1. I can nominate anyone towards Nobel Peace prize. But my nomination doesn't mean jack squat, but technically, it's a nomination. The fact that it is a non-qualified nomination is beside the point. So a nomination has to come from a qualified source.

2. As policy, the Nobel Peace prize commission won't reveal who has been nominated for a Nobel Prize until 50 years later. That is their policy. So for anyone to claim that he is nominated, well, they don't have the proper information, unless:

3. The person who nominates the "nominee" comes forward. Ofcourse, even in this case, the Nobel Prize commission can neither confirm nor deny that the person was actually nominated, and even if he was nominated, they can't report if he actually met the criteria.

This is news to me. I really didn't know that, however the fact is, IMO, he was nominated for a decent cause. As I said, those books may have saved more lives than Williams took.. We'll never know, as this is also a matter of opinion. It's still not a normal thing to be nominated though, no matter who nominates you. How many people do you know personally who were looked at for the peace prize?


Too bad, that might get us closer to agreeing on things if we could see where you are coming from with regards to known terrorist

I do not know enough about Arafat to knowledgeably comment on him. From what I know, he fought the Israelis in '67, he went on to become leader of the PLO (also something I dont know much about), and ended up elected leader of the Palestinians. The media calls him a terrorist, and I know about his supposed ties to terrorist organizations, but then again (as stated before) I really don't give the media a whole lot of credit. Any Arab who opposes Israeli policies is a terrorist in their eyes, and I disagree.





Meaning his only concern was the violence between the two gangs. It never addressed, as far I can see, gang violence towards others who are not in gangs. It doesn't address the violence that the gangs do towards the other people in their community.

It was essentially a cease-fire saying, don't shoot the other combatants, but don't worry about the innocent civilians, they are still open game.

Okay, back to Tookie and his gangbanger buddies. In order to comment on this subject, I feel you should actually know about it, otherwise you are propagating stereotypes. That is not the way gangs work. Maybe I didnt work in the media, but I have worked with gang kids at a halfway house. Believe it or not, when it comes to Black gangs (Crips, Bloods, Vice Lords, Folks) there is a 'code of ethics,' if you will. There is no respect given for attacking or killing civilians. This is not to say that it never happens, but it is frowned upon and dealt with harshly (even by killing the offender, especially if the crime brings heat down on the gang), and it is not a widespread thing. Gangbangers kill gangbangers. Black on Black crime is something completely different, and should not be confused.






The witnesses who helped get Tookie convicted were his fellow crips.

And a government witness giving testimony to save his own a$$ would never lie, right? Gimme a break on that one. A snitch is a snitch, and if a deal is on the table, or the informant is compensated by the government, why would they NOT lie? After all, in those situations, it's either your friends a$$, or yours.

Tookie ofcourse is relying on people not actually researching the material from his trial: He claimed that the police found "not a shred of tangible evidence, no fingerprints, no crime scenes of bloody boot prints. They didn't match my boots, nor eyewitnesses. Even the shotgun shells found conveniently at each crime scene didn't match the shotgun shells that I owned."

Ooops. Actually, they were matched to Tookie's shotgun. There were no exclusionary markings. They matched perfectly.

Tookie, or atleast his supporters, also claim that his jury was all-white. It wasn't. There was one Hispanic, and one Asian, and surpise surprise, there was also an African American.

With regards to possible innocence, he has gone through 24 years worth of appeals to various courts in the State of California. None of those courts have found any question of his quilt, even though one court recommended giving him clemency. Even that court found no issues with his guilt. I think that says something right there.

Once again, I never said I thought the man was innocent, and I knew about his jury. Nothing to argue there. As for Tookies childrens books being something to consider, I guess that's another agree to disagree :D

Never flamed you. The only thing I gave an actual disagreement over was whether or not he has severed his gang ties.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. You seemed kind of emotional there though :neener:



Yup, they were Asian. But as I said before, Tookie made the comment that he killed the first guy because he was white, and he wanted to kill white people. The fact that the other 3 people were Asian doesn't mean squat, except that they are also dead.

Ofcourse, when taken in context of Tookies appology to the "young Black kids" who have died, once again he left out 3 Asian people that he murdered as well.

Guess he isn't sorry for them because they weren't Black.

I would call that racism.

I have to disagree, but here's why. Tookie has never fessed up to the crime. This would go against logic - if a man wants to be seen as innocent, why would he basically admit guilt by saying he was remorseful? I still have more to read from the D.A.'s plea to execute him, but I have never heard anyone quote those statements or attribute them to Tookie. That doesn't mean he didn't say it, just means I never heard it.

I think you're right not to worry if you live outside of L.A. - I know nothing is going down anywhere else if there. I don't think L.A. will go up in smoke either, although If I lived in Los Angeles, I might have to tote some extra mags around w/the 1911 until we see what happens. Nothing wrong with being prepared, and as we all know, L.A. is a crazy place where anything can happen for any reason. I still think people on the eastern seabord loading up for this just need to stop it. :p

[itgoesboom]

CousinMike,

I think that part of our disagreement (if there really is one), is just a matter of perspective.

I did edit a few things for the sake of being complete.

One of the bigger ones was that one of the witnesses that told the court about Tookie's comment on the first murder was actually Tookie's own brother.

Regarding the Racism thing, I honestly believe it is there. And while Tookie claims to be innocent, almost nobody out there believes that he is. So for him to appologize to all the Black kids who died, but ignore the 4 people he killed who weren't Black, that screams racism to me, especially when it comes from someone who has claimed racism throughout the 24 years that he was imprisoned.

Not to mention, while the violence is usually Black on Black, there are crossfires, and there are other victims, both in the street and in prisons.

So for him to ignore those victims during his apology, that seems like he is missing something.

You mentioned wanting to read the DA's report though, and I can give you a link to that.

http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf

I.G.B.

[itgoesboom]

Almost forgot.

I would almost be inclined to say let him live, if he actually had shown remorse for the killings. If 5 years ago, he came out and said, yeah, I did it, I am paying the price, I am sorry for it, and donated the money that he has recieved from his books, his movie and his supporters to the victims families, then I would be inclined to say that he has reformed.

At that point I would say that he would be more useful alive then dead.

But right now, with never apologizing for the murders, with never even admitting them, I don't think he should be allowed to live, because he isn't truely reformed.

I.G.B.

[Keith Wheeler]

I am not accusing any one person or group of people who post here. But I am amazed, even here, a forum dedicated to taking "The High Road", at how racially charged this discussion has been, if only "under the radar".

[Bob F.]

Actually, I think it has been a good, logical dicussion. Yes, I think race is an issue, but not really an overriding one, IGB and Cuz have both admitted misunderstanding, unclear in their arguments, etc, and, as gentlemen, refrained from personal attacks. Even agreeing to disagree, and asking politely for sources, etc. Nice to see, heear, read(?) an intelligent discussion for a change. Speaking of which, gotta go tp APS and check out sm's discusions!

Stay safe.
Bob

[Phyphor]

I will be out there the week after the scheduled date and will be staying near LAX airport. Has this area been bad in the past? If things get bad what would be my options? I could drive and take a handgun and shotgun. Might have to follow Kalifornistan laws once i cross over the border. But if the police run I would just say "screw their laws". Not much chance I could cancel the trip even if things got bad. I usually am reduced to just a knife and pepper spray in my checked luggage when I must travel to the PRK.


I think you've got more to worry about on the 405 going TO LAX than you do in the area of LAX, as (the last time I was there) it's more patrolled than most other areas in LA.

But, do stay alert.

[Cousin Mike]

I am not accusing any one person or group of people who post here. But I am amazed, even here, a forum dedicated to taking "The High Road", at how racially charged this discussion has been, if only "under the radar".

Are you serious? Under the radar to who? :D I always wonder if people really think like they talk on the internet. Nobody ever talks like that around me, but maybe I don't go far enough outside the city. :D As for THR, I don't say anything about the "homie" and "gangsta" stuff, but it's still racist crap. I guess it's just not supposed to be obvious. :rolleyes: No point in trying to debate that kind of thing. Most people here (from my experiences so far) aren't like that, so no big deal. There's always a few though.

On a more serious note, the more I read the more I think this guy might just need to fry, if this stuff is true. On the other hand, I'm suspicious of D.A.'s, attorneys, government informants and the like. I also agree that if the physical evidence is as conclusive as stated, either Tookie did it, or he shouldn't have loaned his shotgun to his buddies that night. The racism thing is still shady to me, though one has to admit, it's funny his own brother said that. Haven't gotten that far in the file yet to read for myself. All that said, my only hang-up on executing this guy is the same thing I've stated, as far as the childrens books, the anti-gang work, etc. etc. Even if he didnt kill the three people in question, the guy has to have killed a few people. You don't start a gang that violent without setting that kind of example.

I also think that if he did do everything he's accused of he should have admitted it and apologized to the families, etc. I'm slightly inclined to believe it would be better he confess even if he is innocent, but it's too late for all that now, huh? Guess we wont have the chance to see what Tookie could have accomlished to end gang wars. IMO, Arnold isn't going to grant clemency. That would be political suicide, and I think his office is more important to him. Furthermore, as also stated earlier, I think this guy should cook just for starting the gang. If you've ever had to deal with them personally, you know why I say that.

[itgoesboom]

The racism thing is still shady to me, though one has to admit, it's funny his own brother said that. Haven't gotten that far in the file yet to read for myself.


I may not have been too clear on that aspect.

One witness, Sims, claimed that Tookie killed the clerk because he was white. Sims was one of the gang members who was with Tookie during the robbery/murder.

Tookie's brother was the one that Tookie told about the way the clerk sounded when he was killed.

I probably wasn't too clear about it, since the first source I read credited them incorrectly.

I.G.B.

[Norton]

The real point is that those who riot don't need to be Tookie supporters, they're just thugs looking for an excuse.

Exactly right....I'll be watching my back when I go to work on Tuesday over on the Beltway.

Mercer County is just due south of Monroe, correct?

[Evil_Ed]

Quick note supporting the theory that Tookie is a racist...

One fo the witness accounts after the fact talked of how Tookie bragged about killing 3 "budda heads" as he put it in reference to the murder of the oriental family. The guy is a scumbag and needs to fry for the deaths of 4 innocent people.

[Cousin Mike]

Just finished reading everything from the links. I guess it's a little hard to argue that this guy should be saved.

As to the racist element, I don't know if racist would be my word of choice. Maybe ignorant, but not everyone who makes comments like that is a true racist. I cited comments earlier made on THR referring to blacks as "gangstas" and "homies," I consider it to be the same thing. Racist, yeah. Distasteful, obviously, but hardcore racist language from a tried and true group of bigots? Probably not, more often than so. Doesn't make it okay that Williams said that stuff, but it is an explanation. The comment about killing all white people to me seems a little... wierd. IMO that could have been made up, considering the witness, but who cares.

After reading all of that, you have to wonder what motivates this guy to continue to refuse debriefing, and why he chose not to defend himself at trial. As far as his life as an inmate, it proves nothing to me. Prison is a rough place, and there are different laws in there than the ones we abide by out here. I'm not going to judge someone for how they conduct themselves in prison. That said, I still disagree on racism being a motive for the murders, or a serious element to the case.

The motive was simple. He was high on that sh*t (PCP), and he needed money. Going by the story, he killed them because he didn't want to go to prison for the robberies. Simple man, simple motive.

One thing I did have to roll my eyes at was how they tried to tie rape to the Crips, like it's an everyday occurance. Then later they said Crips were involved in 36 rapes in one year in L.A. - I'd like to see how many rapes there were in L.A. that year, and do the math. Bet it's a fraction of one percent. Regardless, I think time's up for Tookie. Can't say I'll lose any sleep.

[jsalcedo]

If there is rioting it will be incited by the media.

[carebear]

Mike,

Using the terms "gangstas" and "homies" can only realistically be called racist if they are applied to those who do not refer to themselves that way.

To say using those words about guys in the thug life is racist is a little specious.

[Cousin Mike]

Mike,

Using the terms "gangstas" and "homies" can only realistically be called racist if they are applied to those who do not refer to themselves that way.

To say using those words about guys in the thug life is racist is a little specious.

I agree, although I dunno what specious means.:D Sometimes I feel the context it's used in is inappropriate. Other times, it fits. I only disagree with it being used as a general term to describe black guys, which IMO sometimes happens around here. That's life though, no biggie. Not trying to make an issue of it, just an observation.

[longeyes]

The motive was simple. He was high on that sh*t (PCP), and he needed money. Going by the story, he killed them because he didn't want to go to prison for the robberies. Simple man, simple motive.

Perfect candidate for execution, I'd say.

No remorse, no admission of guilt. Repentance, redemption?--don't make me laugh.

There are a lot of people in the media who are secretly sanguinary, lusting for violence, bloodshed, action. One could speculate why these bleeding hearts want blood spilt. I won't. I'll just take the usual precautions against an insane world.

[Camp David]

Who is representing the people this animal killed? Where is their lobby group?

Let's execute this killer and be done with it! That is the sentence the jury recommended. Let it be done.

[longeyes]

Government officials "plead" for peace, for calm. Lord.

What they should be doing is making clear to those contemplating anti-social violence that they will be mercilessly crushed.

Same old story: appease the bully.

You have to wonder about a society in which there has to be a debate about this reprobate's execution, wonder more about people comparing him to Jesus, Moses, and Buddha when the AntiChrist would be more apt.

All I can say is this: Anyone who comes down this street with a Molotov cocktail will leave in a bodybag.

[Bob F.]

"Rehabilitation through reincarnation!"

[denfoote]

I have my SKS loaded by my bed. Pistolet Makarova and three mags under the pillow and another Makarov in the drawer of my desk along with two more mags!!

[Phyphor]

ain't gonna touch the EBR, though, hate to lose the damned thing (since it's literally irreplaceable while I'm here in Cali), but still got all the mags loaded just in case things go 'alamo' around here. Lots of whiners protesting on the local news, so while I don't think it'll get violent around here, one never knows.

Got both the Glock 19 and the 1911 loaded up as well (screw 9mm vs. .45, both might just come in damned handy,)

Don't think I'll need any of the other toys...

Odds are, though, nothing will happen. I'll be satisfied with that, just so long as Tookie gets his VERY personal lesson in needlepoint real early Tuesday morning..... :evil:

[cz75bdneos22]

Mr. Stanley "Tookie" Williams...sir,

i sincerely believe and accept your apologies to the victims families. i hope it brings you the internal peace that you are seeking..may the supreme being grant you the serenity and peace accordingly..you will soon be at his mercy. my blessings to you and my condolences to your loved ones. i wish you peace..el rancherito.

[mindpilot]

WOULD YOU LIKE FRIES WITH THAT TOOKIE?


FRY THAT SUCKER

[bjbarron]

Tookie's gonna fry...And Mike Ferrell should be sitting on his lap....

Farrell is counting on the fact that no one remembers another part he played one Friday night, 18 years ago in San Salvador. For 2 ½ hours, Farrell, who played a surgeon on M*A*S*H, assisted Dr. Alejandro Sanchez in a real-life operation to restore movement to the arm of Nidia Diaz, a guerilla leader of the Marxist Central American Workers Party. Just two months before, the group had claimed responsibility for the slaying of four U.S. Marines, two American businessmen and nine civilians. Diaz is still barred from entering the U.S. for her role in the murders.

Beyond Moonbat. Entering appendix territory.
What is the difference between Mike Ferrell and an appendix?

One is wormlike and useless appendage that causes irritation and pain to normal people.

The other is an organ at the end of your intestine.

[yucaipa]

I just wish they could get Bianca Jagger to threaten (promise) to move to another country if Tookie is executed.:D

[gunsmith]

All quiet in Reno, I doubt anyone here really cares about Tookie, or even knows who he is. Monday night football is much more important here!

[mindpilot]

Hope they put him on the George Foreman Cycle.....nice and slow....no grease.....just right!:D

[c_yeager]

Mr. Stanley "Tookie" Williams...sir,

i sincerely believe and accept your apologies to the victims families. i hope it brings you the internal peace that you are seeking..may the supreme being grant you the serenity and peace accordingly..you will soon be at his mercy. my blessings to you and my condolences to your loved ones. i wish you peace..el rancherito.

He has not apologized to the victim's families, he has neither admitted his crimes not sought forgiveness. He will not be getting any peace. Nor should he.

[cz75bdneos22]

He has not apologized to the victim's families, he has neither admitted his crimes not sought forgiveness. He will not be getting any peace. Nor should he.

Now, Mr yeager...

neither you or me can read other peoples mind..If Mr Williams has/will soon repent of his "mistakes" he does not "need" to ask anyone of us for his forgiveness. I'm guessing though that he has tried/will try to make his peace before he departs "this" life. thats why i'm positively encouraged to belive otherwise. that decision, sir, is now out of human hands. his ultimate punishment will be handed to him by that which is greater than us. he has already got his earthly punisment..i am satisfied of that:( ..i bid YOU peace.

[Hot brass]

All the people that are dead, mamed, families destroyed, because of Tookie is Tookies fault. Tookie should take responsibility for his actions.

A+B=C

A= actions
B= behavior
C= consequences

Tookie helped start one of the most notorious gangs in modern times.
Nothing Tookie does, says, books written, speaches by Tookie, or his followers will mend the broken hearts, families, and friends that lost loved ones.

Tookie be gone.

[NineseveN]

Burn baby Burn! :evil:

[c_yeager]

Now, Mr yeager...

neither you or me can read other peoples mind..If Mr Williams has/will soon repent of his "mistakes" he does not "need" to ask anyone of us for his forgiveness. I'm guessing though that he has tried/will try to make his peace before he departs "this" life. thats why i'm positively encouraged to belive otherwise. that decision, sir, is now out of human hands. his ultimate punishment will be handed to him by that which is greater than us. he has already got his earthly punisment..i am satisfied of that:( ..i bid YOU peace.

I was correcting your poor grasp of the facts. You stated that he had apologized to the families that he ruined, he has not. Wether or not you feel that is adequate is your business, but its important that the people reading this thread understand the TRUTH of the situation so that they can form their own opinions. Tookie mantains his innocence and has done nothing to repent for what he has done.

[Cosmoline]

I am betting--NO RIOTS other than the usual hot air of these "celebrity spokesmen."

I realize there are fears of a riot, but all the interviews "in the hood" I've seen have shown a real lack of interest in the case. The home boys know this guy for what he was.

I guess we'll know if I was right in another day. Still, I'm glad I'm up here :D

[cz75bdneos22]

someone needs to re-read my post. never, did i implicitly say that "tookie" had publically apologized to anyone (verbally or written)...if that is what you assumed, then so be it..let me know if i failed to clarify this point. i will try my best to get my point acroos within my capacity...

[Gunsnrovers]

This is news to me. I really didn't know that, however the fact is, IMO, he was nominated for a decent cause. As I said, those books may have saved more lives than Williams took..

If you're willing to count the lives he saved through his books, then you'll have to count the lives taken by the gang he helped create.

Just under two hours to go.

I hope things remain calm. My wife teaches in Inglewood.

[Geno]

I suspect that if some of these "pro-lifer's" families were the ones killed, then they miight be singing a different tune.

An eye for an eye; a life for a life. He's a lucky man...he got a trial AND an appeal! Had it been my family member he killed, I'm not sure he would have!

Time to say "Good night" to Earth and "Hello" to his new home: :evil:

Pack light, baby...I hear it hot there is time of year!

Doc2005

[Phyphor]

I heard that he got TWO Jury trials, and a 9th court appeal... ? Am I wrong?

[M-Rex]

A little under an hour and a half to go.

Burn in Hell, Stanley Williams. May your last moments be filled with terror.

[mindpilot]

Sizzle Sizzle Shizzle be dizzle, If the Price is FLY...then You must FRY! (Snoop Dog Chrysler Commercial) I think he was one of the PROPONENTS for him to LIVE.

Shizzle y'all

[Kurush]

Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has just left the building.

[Phyphor]

They just confirmed that they just did him.

[mindpilot]

Shizzle be Dizzle...He had to Sizzle.......Shoot someone in the back and live 25 years to think about it, they shoulda broke out the medevil torture rack.

[CleverName]

Gentlemen.

While I do not believe Tookie Williams deserved clemency, neither will I crow over his death. My emotions and thoughts instead reside with the families hurt by this man, both personally and through his organization and its offshoots. I do not see how it is the high road to celebrate so prematurely. We should deny this man any publicity, whether in life or in death, except as an example to not follow. Focus on the real victims here.

[mindpilot]

U can morn all you want. I am glad he is gone and out of the news. Next topic?

[captain obvious]

U can morn all you want. I am glad he is gone and out of the news. Next topic?
+1

[Jim Diver]

Tookie assumes room temp.... Good ridance.

[mindpilot]

I dont mean to make light of anyone's death really, as a God fearing man I feel for anyone who is about to meet their maker. I feel for the ones that have to meet him because someone else decides to take their earthly life for some insane reason. I feel for that individual right now that is standing before his maker and having to atone for what he did. If he made peace in this life about what he did then he may be better off, I dont know. I fear death because like most humans I fear the unknown. Tookie KNEW more then most any of us will when we die. He had 25 years to think about it. This is not Mr. Schwarzengger's fault. He was in a position that required him to make a decision and he made it, just as Tookie did as he shot 4 people. Granted very different circumstances, but dont blame Arnold.

If you need to Blame, Blame the System.

[Kaylee]

And with that ladies and gentlemen.. enough.

There's a line between gratitide that justice was done and dancing in blood -- even blood guilty as sin.

Thank you to those who stayed on this side.

-K