Question regarding LEO's


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MrDig
December 13, 2005, 02:45 PM
I have to question some of the attitudes towards Law Enforcement Officers, that seem to be predominant at THR.
It seems as though many think LEO's are the enemy, all sworn to take our guns away from us. But in my experience this is not the case. I live in the Minneapolis St. Paul area and it seems more like the County Commissioners and City Councils in the area have it in their heads that I don't need a gun. Most of the LEO's I have dealt with are in favor of Law Abiding Citizens owning Firearms. This is not necessarily true of the Administrative side of Law Enforcement. But most of the Cops on the street seem pro gun rights.
I have respect foe LEO's since they do a job that I am physically not able to do.
They have Administrators, the Media, and Private Citizens, constantly nit picking the work they do, and their work is to protect us from the Bangers, Thieves and Junkies that are a plague to society.
They stand as a line between me and those that would do me and mine harm as do our Soldiers.
I for one am as Grateful for LEO's as I am for the Men and Women Serving in the military.
I am not so naive as to think all LEO's are good, I just think by and large they deserve more gratitude than they receive.
I question the attitude in general, What is it about LEO"S that makes a person distrust them, If they have not broken any laws?

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orangeninja
December 13, 2005, 02:47 PM
MDig...I too noticed this about THR...though it has settled down a bit. You are right, most cops love an armed victim....most politicians don't.

Thanks for the post.

Darth Ruger
December 13, 2005, 02:48 PM
I must have missed some threads. Can you post links to some recent threads that contain a lot of LEO-bashing? :confused:

orangeninja
December 13, 2005, 02:50 PM
I must have missed some threads. Can you post links to some recent threads that contain a lot of LEO-bashing? :confused:

Not really of recent. And it seems to be more an attitude than outright bashing.

WT
December 13, 2005, 02:50 PM
Okay, so what's the question? I don't see any question framed in MDig's comments.

TallPine
December 13, 2005, 02:55 PM
Question regarding LEO's
Okay, so what's the question? I don't see any question framed in MDig's comments.
The answer is 42 :p

Sindawe
December 13, 2005, 02:56 PM
I have to question some of the attitudes towards Law Enforcement Officers, that seem to be predominant at THR.
It seems as though many think LEO's are the enemy, all sworn to take our guns away from us. A somewhat necessary evil. In an ideal world, people would respect and honor the rights of others, and those who did not would soon be culled from the gene pool by those whos rights they infringe. But we don't live in an ideal world, so....

I will grant that my views are colored by the all too frequent incidents of LEOs abusing and killing their fellow citizens in pursuit of the WOD.

MrDig
December 13, 2005, 02:58 PM
WT I edited the original post to end with a question.

Henry Bowman
December 13, 2005, 02:59 PM
The answer is 42 If you're going to turn this into a caliber war thread, the answer is .45! :neener:



Seriously, it is the age old issue of "Us vs. Them." Some of "them" are some of "us," but not all. Heck, sometimes it seems like some of "us" are some of "them." Understand? Many tyrrants want LEOs to be one of "them." They want and need the fire power on "their" side." They don't trust "us." Some LEOs aspire to be petty tyrrants (i.e., one of "them"). But many LEOs realize that they have much more in common with "us."

Simple, really.

Tequila_Sauer
December 13, 2005, 03:14 PM
Of my 3 best friends, 2 are active police officers, and 1 is set to graduate from the academy (he'll be hired within a month). I have a healthy respect for police officers, but I will never believe in this system we have whereby people are pulled over and ticketed for doing 71 on a 60 mph highway but the idiot that drives all the way to the front of a long line of cars on an exit ramp and attempts to butt in (impeding the flow of traffic behind him, which is extremely dangerous) seems to never get snagged.

I can not stand when people do that.

jsalcedo
December 13, 2005, 03:17 PM
Personally it is a case by case attitude problem.

If I support a cop in a thread nobody notices.

If I take a cops actions to task I'm a cop basher or cop bigot.

Regarding my experiences, my police contact has been 1/3 neutral 1/3 really good 1/3 really bad. I'll ignore the other 1%.

The bad experiences really stick out for me and since I am not or have never been a criminal or disrespectful to a police officer.

My life experience tells me there are certain professions that attract those who seek power and dominance over others.

To summarize you can't paint all police officers with a broad brush.

All police officers are NOT JBT's

You also cannot assume that all police are there to protect and serve.

middy
December 13, 2005, 03:23 PM
I have a problem with people who ignore the Constitution of the United States because their boss told them to. I don't care if it's a LEO or my grandmother.

Berek
December 13, 2005, 03:35 PM
The answer is 42 :p

Ok, you found the ultimate answer, but what's the ultimate question? :)

Gordon Fink
December 13, 2005, 03:35 PM
There are a great many unconstitutional “laws” in place throughout the United States—and a great many more that are merely unjust. Cops are the ones who enforce these “laws” … so, politically, cops are sometimes the enemy, at least by proxy, which is very unfortunate for all of us.

~G. Fink

pharmer
December 13, 2005, 03:41 PM
Also depends on where you live. Lived the first half of my life in NJ, knew lots of cops, none were pro RKABA types. Here in Fla know lots of cops, almost all below the rank of captain are pro RKABA. Joe

TallPine
December 13, 2005, 04:01 PM
what's the ultimate question?
That's a good question .... ;)

Rezin
December 13, 2005, 04:05 PM
Ok, you found the ultimate answer, but what's the ultimate question? :)
What is 7 X 6? :D


DON'T PANIC!





As far as the topic, I never really noticed it. I think this is a rather balanced site as far as LEO opinions go. I have seen MUCH worse, believe me!!!

Atticus
December 13, 2005, 04:13 PM
Politically, the FOP and assorted Chief's of Police and Sheriffs Associations are to the LEO what Jesse Jackson and the NAACP are to African Americans. Unfortunately, the rank and file take a lot of heat for the attitudes and political stands of the leadership.

Werewolf
December 13, 2005, 04:16 PM
In our society Law Enforcement represents authority at its most fundamental level. Some folks are comfortable with it; never questioning it; even demanding it. Others constantly question and challenge it.

It is, IMO, those who are not comfortable with unquestionable, unchallengable authority (which law enforcement most certainly represents) who are the sources of what the OP deems LEO bashing.

I myself fall into the crowd that questions and challenges authority when IMO the exercise of the authority is either onerous or unnecessary. My personal bug-a-boo is the LEO who cannot abide anyone questioning their authority and takes what ever action they deem necessary up to and including force to assure compliance simply for compliance's sake.

Sometimes emergency situations occur where one simply must obey; so let me make my self clear - I am not talking about the LEO who orders an armed or violent suspect to the ground with probable cause or one that orders a citizen about to protect them or any other emergency situation. I am talking about the LEO's that expect obeisance and treat citizens like subjects. I'm talking about the LEO's whose actions remind me of the parent that demands of their child, DO NOT TALK BACK! and GOD help you if you do. Those guys have the power to ruin one's life - completely - with little more reason than their authority was challenged. They may only represent 1 LEO in a thousand but you never know whether the LEO you're dealing with is one of them until it is too late.

The sheep have nothing to fear from that type of LEO, they bow and scrape, grovel and comply without shame or question. The LEO that demands such unquestioned obediance is too common to ignore and thus some folks have developed an attitude of US vs THEM in order to (rightly or wrongly) protect themselves.

When concerns are voiced those that note them are usually deemed Cop Bashers. Sometimes that's exactly what they are doing but most of the time they are simply articulating - poorly in many cases - their concerns and why they have them.

WT
December 13, 2005, 04:19 PM
"What is it about LEO"S that makes a person distrust them, If they have not broken any laws?"

So many LEO's break the law, how do we know the officer we are dealing with is not one of them?

In my area we have officers who are hit men for the Mafia, rape women pulled over for traffic violations, deal drugs, rob banks on their way to work, sell illegal weaons, etc. The state PBA once reported that 40% of officers have substance abuse problems. (My contacts in the state police thought it was only 30%.)

One acquaintance is a LEO. I asked him why he doesn't report infractions by other LEO's. His comment, "I don't care if my sergeant deals drugs. If I'm in a gunfight and I need help, he will be there."

I think our black members of THR could add their own special observations.

Is that an answer?


PS: the son of my best friend is a LEO. He once told me he hoped that he would do nothing that would make his parents ashamed of him.

f4t9r
December 13, 2005, 04:23 PM
I have to question some of the attitudes towards Law Enforcement Officers, that seem to be predominant at THR.
It seems as though many think LEO's are the enemy,

I do not agree, I have seen many threads that are positive towards LEO.
Yes when one leaves a gun in a parking lot or on top of a car , you will get some comments and funny statements , but I believe that would be the case no matter who makes a mistake. A guy screws up and he/she is sure to hear about it no matter who he/she is or what they do. I feel a high % of THR members support the police and the military and everyone else who puts thier life on the line for this Country.

TallPine
December 13, 2005, 04:24 PM
What is it about LEO"S that makes a person distrust them, If they have not broken any laws?
I have to say that some of the comments made by some of the [perported] LEO members of THR and TFL over the last few years have caused me to distrust LEOs.

:(

jsalcedo
December 13, 2005, 04:31 PM
I have to say that some of the comments made by some of the [perported] LEO members of THR and TFL over the last few years have caused me to distrust LEOs.

Coffee cans come to mind for some reason :evil:

beaucoup ammo
December 13, 2005, 04:35 PM
People (myself at times) tend to shade with a broad stroke on occasion. If ever there was a thankless job, it's Law Enforcement. Certainly the power that goes with it invites an element who's last thought is to "protect and serve".."bully and push" gets them out of the sack every morning.

But, ook at the gig, and think about the influence it could have on you. Dealing with the really worst of society 24/7 has to take a toll on a man or woman over a period of 10 - 15 years. Your initial intentions might take a turn along the way, after seeing first hand the mindless violence and heartache these scum bags leave in their wake. And every day more laws are passed that render a LEO legally bound to protect the BG's rights AND deal with the attendant paperwork, rather than just slam the clown's a** in jail and get back on the street to help "Joe Taxpayer."

My brother was a LEO in Corpus Christi for 30+ years and the good ones FAR outweighed the bad ones.

He'd come home (sometimes at 8AM depending on the shift) have a double shot of Jack Black with a Bud back, fall into bed and then we'd go fishing with some of his friends. I use to think (and told them so) they fished to get the smell of the street off!

You can't judge til you walk a mile..yadda, yadda.

Take Care

armoredman
December 13, 2005, 04:39 PM
I am a Correctional Sergeant - hate us; everyone else does. We don't care anymore who hates us, as the inmates do, the people on the streets, and a large percentage of street LE despise us. It's OK, go for it.:) Thick skin comes in prison....:p

Derby FALs
December 13, 2005, 04:44 PM
Got coffee?

f4t9r
December 13, 2005, 04:49 PM
I am a Correctional Sergeant - hate us; everyone else does. We don't care anymore who hates us, as the inmates do, the people on the streets, and a large percentage of street LE despise us. It's OK, go for it.:) Thick skin comes in prison....:p

ease up a little , You can not speak for everyone
I do not hate you or any other Correctional officer (At this Time , maybe later)

CAS700850
December 13, 2005, 05:05 PM
When I started as a prosecuting attorney, I was told that on any given day, someone will hate you. Cops hate you for turning down cases. Defendant's hate you for taking cases. Defense Attorneys hate you for not doing things their way (making deals, etc.). Victims hate you for making deals, or not seeking the death penalty because thier collectible snow globes were stolen. Reporters hate you because you know everything and say nothing. Politicians hate you because you truly do know everything, and are a risk to say something. Judges hate you because you're the reason their docket is full, and you probably want their job anyways. Pro RKBA eople hate you because you took away that defendan't's guns. Anti-gun people hate you because you gave that assault weapon back to the person it was stolen from.

Get it? Every day, in any job you do, you are going to very likely make someone unhappy. For LEO's, it's more ofetn than not that someone you come into contact with will be very unhappy to see you.

By the way, in my career, I have met some cops that I would hand my wallet to, take it back the next day, and not check to make sure everything was still there. I know it would be. Then again, I've met others that I prefer not to leave alone in my office...

Tequila_Sauer
December 13, 2005, 05:06 PM
I had a corrections officer in my International Organization class and she was insanely rude, from day one. Very loud, very up front, and very demanding of personal attention. She was all business and she loved relaying stories about the things her inmates do and how she responded.

That's actually the only corrections officer I've ever met. Most LEOs I know, including the 3 friends I mentioned, are complete and total goofballs. Very funny, and all around, good guys. With many of them, it's hard to imagine them being d***s to people. Their stories, by contrast, are actually awesome.

Biker
December 13, 2005, 05:07 PM
Much depends upon location. In my neck of the woods, cops, with few exceptions, are pretty down home. A few even come down to the local scooter shop and sneak back to the fridge for a brew - off duty, of course. However, if a few of us hit Boise, or head to Portland, things change drastically. It's an 'us V them' thing. Ya just gotta adjust your tactics according to terrain and situation. It does no good to whine about it. Roll with the punches leave the BS behind ya.
Biker

Universal
December 13, 2005, 05:07 PM
I actually find the High Road to have a lot less anti-police comments and such compared to some other sites. I am a retired police officer and have worked with some great individuals and with some complete boneheads. Cops are people and not all people are the same. I know that I was never considered a typical cop because I did not share many interests and views with most of my co-workers. However, I believe I was respected as being a clean (i.e. by the book) and fair officer in my community and that is what really matters to me. I am very proud of my service but I am also critical of other officers when they screw up. I do not miss everything about the job but I would certainly do it all over again if I had the chance. It made me part of who I am today and I would not trade that for anything.

MrDig
December 13, 2005, 05:32 PM
I am truly thankful for the replies thus far. I started this thread to find out if I was off the mark or what, (In Psychobabble speak they call it "Reality Testing" ) and I may have been misreading some of the statements I saw.
Another reason was my Oldest Brother was a LEO now retired. What he did for 30+ yrs I find truly amazing. The things he has seen would have had me in therapy.
I know that from a numbers standpoint with any population group, a census will turn up Idiots, A@#holes, Criminals and Citizens, Geniuses, Heroes and Jerks. On some days depending on who you ask I could be any of these.
Thanks for the responses.

orionengnr
December 13, 2005, 05:33 PM
I have known several LEOs and have a deep and abiding respect for what they do. I can easily see how dealing with the worst society has to offer, day in, day out can take a tool on a person. Hell, I'm pretty cynical myself and I've never seen 1% of what these guys see every day.

Now, on the other side: On this board or any other, you will have that small percentage who will rationalise and defend any behavior no matter how outrageous. Case in point, the convoy of NY/(NJ?) LEOs that was stopped in VA(?) returning home from NO at high speed, lights a-flashing. Boy, there were some animated discussions over that one.

Look, I do not defend or rationalise unacceptable behavior by anyone. Not by criminals, certainly not by my elected officials, not by those appointed to positions of responsibility. Anyone who has the class to say, "Look, I screwed up..." has my respect. Anyone who makes excuses, or worse yet, believes "the rules don't apply to me..." makes me ill.

My .02.

Jim K
December 13, 2005, 05:42 PM
I have been on both sides of a badge, and I see one of the problems with LE recently as the influence of the Vietnam era military people hired by the police as officers and instructors. Many of those are retired, but they have indoctrinated a generation of police with the "us and them" attitude of the military.

A LE officer typically sees the world as us (cops), them (crooks) and everyone else (sheep). That is not good, and armed sheep are not in the cops' rulebook; they don't know how to handle that.

But the military sees the world as us (our side) and them (the enemy). And "our" job is to kill "them." Third parties are not in the picture; if they get in the way, so what, it is "collateral damage" and besides, anyone who is not "us" either is "them" or will become "them" when it gets dark. There are no neutrals, no "sheep" to be protected, only enemies to be harassed or killed.

So the cops who are ex-military or trained by ex-military tend to see "the mission" first, and to hell with anyone or anything that stands in the way. An enemy on the battlefield has no constitutional rights, and a civilian who gets in the way gets stomped. That attitude may be necessary for winning wars; in civilian life police work, it is a disaster for honest citizens who "get in the way."

Jim

M-Rex
December 13, 2005, 06:07 PM
Personally it is a case by case attitude problem.

If I support a cop in a thread nobody notices.

If I take a cops actions to task I'm a cop basher or cop bigot.

Regarding my experiences, my police contact has been 1/3 neutral 1/3 really good 1/3 really bad. I'll ignore the other 1%.

The bad experiences really stick out for me and since I am not or have never been a criminal or disrespectful to a police officer.

My life experience tells me there are certain professions that attract those who seek power and dominance over others.

To summarize you can't paint all police officers with a broad brush.

All police officers are NOT JBT's

You also cannot assume that all police are there to protect and serve.


Criticizing a specific incident does not a cop-bigot make. Broad brushed, paranoia based, and non-factual blanket assumptions largely based on emotion or 'get-even-with-them-ism' are bigotry, regardless of class.

There's a lot of that on THR. Merely defending or offering an alternative view of something is often grounds to get the coplophobes all frothy. I would propose that posting numerous obscure anti-cop news threads for no other reason than to boost thread count would drift into that territory as well.

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