[onerifle]

Guess this shouldn't come as a surprise...

It would make too much sense to actually punish criminals...


Hollowed bullet easy to get & hard to survive
BY ALISON GENDAR and DAVE GOLDINER
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Monday, December 12th, 2005

http://www.nydailynews.com/12-12-2005/news/story/374014p-317961c.html

Hollow-point bullets like the one used in the slaying of Officer Daniel Enchautegui are much deadlier than ordinary bullets - and nearly as easy to get.

Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander.

But they want their public sale banned to keep them out of the hands of thugs like Enchautegui's alleged killers, Steven Armento and Lillo Brancato.

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."

Armento allegedly shot Enchautegui with his father's .357-caliber handgun, loaded with the hollow-point bullets.

Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop. They also are readily available on the black market.

"Anybody can go out and buy them," said Michael Palladino, head of the Detectives' Endowment Association.

The main difference between hollow-point and regular, "full-metal jacket" bullets is that the hollow-points flatten on impact and expand inside a target.

The NYPD switched to the new ammo in 1999.

"They are less likely to penetrate the intended target and hit a bystander," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

An on-duty cop's bulletproof vest would likely provide the same protection from a hollow-point as a regular bullet.

With Robert F. Moore

[Solo]

Hollow-point bullets like the one used in the slaying of Officer Daniel Enchautegui are much deadlier than ordinary bullets - and nearly as easy to get.

What exactly is a normal bullet?

[Thefabulousfink]

An on-duty cop's bulletproof vest would likely provide the same protection from a hollow-point as a regular bullet.


It's my understanding that HP are less likely to harm a person wearing a BP vest.

[jrhines]

"Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander."

Oh, really! My, my - that is so considerate of the LEOs out there. Here I always thought it was because a HP took down the target better.

[Lupinus]

Well to my understanding NJ has had them banned and look how well it has stopped crime there. And now maybe I'm wrong but if I remember correctly FMJ will go through a vest easier.

[hso]

less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander which sounds like a public safety benefit and therefore a reason to keep them.

[KriegHund]

"Lets Ban HP's becuase they do more damage to unarmored victims!"

"Lets ban FMJ becuase they do more damage to armored victims!"

gee, i gues we could only let criminals have frangible ammo :rolleyes:

[Pilgrim]

Desperate people require desperate measures, it seems.

Pilgrim

[Fly320s]

KriegHund,

The ultimate goal is to have criminals using paint ball guns only. That way the criminals can still have bragging rights about shooting people (we don't want to hurt their fragile egos) and have proof that they did so, and the cops get to walk away with only a small bruise. Win - Win.:neener:

[bowline]

I think we're overlooking the relevant quote here:

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."

I can think of several good reasons that someone other than the police should have the ability to stop violent felons - it sounds to me as if Mr. Lynch is trying to protect his rice bowl, in trying to make sure the police have a monopoly on criminal control.
I could be way off base here - but from what I understand most rank and file police officers are very much in favor of armed citizens. Most political types are against it, and I think it is precisely because an armed citizen with the ability to defend against a criminal presents a danger to increased budgets, more restrictive laws, and the power base of the empire-building police commissioner, etc.
IMHO, the statement that there is no reason for me to have the ability to stop a violent felon because its' the mission of the police should raise a serious question about his interest in my safety.

[GregGry]

with his father's .357-caliber handgun Correct me if I am wrong, but if someone got hit with a .357 jhp an died, then a .357 fmj would have killed the person too. The only exception I can see, is that the jhp's extra size from expansion might have been able to just just hit the heart, or something like that, versus the fmj just passing through. The way I see it though, not to many people will live from a .357 shot to chest, so in my opnion the ammo choice (JHP vs FMJ) is not really a big deal.

[onerifle]

I think we're overlooking the relevant quote here:

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."

I can think of several good reasons that someone other than the police should have the ability to stop violent felons - it sounds to me as if Mr. Lynch is trying to protect his rice bowl, in trying to make sure the police have a monopoly on criminal control.
I could be way off base here - but from what I understand most rank and file police officers are very much in favor of armed citizens. Most political types are against it, and I think it is precisely because an armed citizen with the ability to defend against a criminal presents a danger to increased budgets, more restrictive laws, and the power base of the empire-building police commissioner, etc.
IMHO, the statement that there is no reason for me to have the ability to stop a violent felon because its' the mission of the police should raise a serious question about his interest in my safety.

I couldn't agree with you more, bowline. Unfortunately, Lynch's attitude is reflective of more than a few of NYPD's MOS. Many (if not most) recruits have never even handled a handgun prior to entering the academy. New Yorkers have been brainwashed for so long, hoplophobia is pretty much endemic.

[Tomcat1066]

So THAT'S the gun grabber's plan. Since they realize that they can only limit our ability to get guns, they can REALLY get us by banning the ammo.

Absolutely brilliant ;)

Seriously though, any serious comment by me about this stuff will require four letter words that are frowned upon by THR.

Tom

[Standing Wolf]

Our mission is to stop violent felons...

If such were the case, those sorry excuses for cops would stop violent felons and leave the law-abiding alone.

[beerslurpy]

My mission is to stop violent felons if I run into them. I just dont get paid to do it by the taxpayers.

[grimjaw]

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability." :scrutiny:

I'm finding it hard to believe this is an actual quote and not something taken out of context, because I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around the concept that the police should be the only ones to defend themselves adequately and responsibly.

Actually, the statement just makes me want to cuss, and reminds me of why I left my ex (NY resident).

jmm

[Old Dog]

I'm finding it hard to believe that the police department would imply that it's only interested in protecting bystanders and other cops from overpenetrating bullets in police shootings ... Guess those bystanders and cops taking hits from overpenetrating FMJs fired from civilian guns will just have to suck it up ...

[bowline]

My mission is to stop violent felons if I run into them. I just dont get paid to do it by the taxpayers.

See, thats' the problem. If everybody did it, we wouldn't need nearly as many police.
Upper echelon police types (not the guy in the street, mind you) see disarming citizens as a surefire way to ensure job security.

[Berek]

Hollow-point bullets like the one used in the slaying of Officer Daniel Enchautegui are much deadlier than ordinary bullets - and nearly as easy to get.
Where I live, there's just as much HP available as FMJ.

Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander.
I've seen some of the shoot-outs and can see the logic of this statement. But wait! Why don't we just train the morons how to shoot so this wouldn't be an issue? Besides, an HP that does not penetrate will ricochet and I've seen a million misses for each hit.

But they want their public sale banned to keep them out of the hands of thugs like Enchautegui's alleged killers, Steven Armento and Lillo Brancato.
Criminals. Again (and again and again) like they would follow any law banning HPs. What are they smoking and where can I get it?

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."
95% of the laws deemed "Felony" include violence. I love repetative redundancy. And, if they're coming at me, I will stop them any way possible. To me, 911 is government sanctioned "Dial-A-Prayer".

Armento allegedly shot Enchautegui with his father's .357-caliber handgun, loaded with the hollow-point bullets.
Did he have daddy's permission? Does he, himself have a permit? If he aquired the HG without permission, the type of bullets should not matter.

Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop.
Don't need a permit. Not outside NYC, at least.

They also are readily available on the black market.
And any law would change this how???

The main difference between hollow-point and regular, "full-metal jacket" bullets is that the hollow-points flatten on impact and expand inside a target.
And the main similarity goes back to marksmanship. Except, after carreening off of a hard, rough surface (i.e. brick, concrete, duh...) the jacket is comprimised and will expand more easily once it penetrates. LEARN TO SHOOT!

The NYPD switched to the new ammo in 1999.
"New"???

"They are less likely to penetrate the intended target and hit a bystander," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.
Like I said, actual hits on a target during a situation is like hitting the moon with a BB gun. LEARN TO SHOOT!!!

An on-duty cop's bulletproof vest would likely provide the same protection from a hollow-point as a regular bullet.

So what's your complaint? Make sure your officers are wearing their vests properly. Better yet, dress them in the BDU (bombs) outfits that make them look like the 7 year old kid with 10 layers of winter clothes under his snow suit. That'll stop it...

Besides. There is a technique that will turn an FMJ into an HP. It's called a DRILL. Like a criminal would say "Aww man, drilling holes is too much work. Maybe I'll just take up crochet instead of killing people." Gimme a break.

Bottom line, to the LEOs that can only hit broad sides of barns, LEARN TO SHOOT! To the LEOs that honestly know how to shoot, TEACH THE OTHERS!

I'm gonna go play with my paper clips now.

[71Commander]

Well to my understanding NJ has had them banned and look how well it has stopped crime there. And now maybe I'm wrong but if I remember correctly FMJ will go through a vest easier.

So they just ban FMJ's. It's really easy to understand the logic.

[Igloodude]

If the NYPD is so concerned with overpenetration and harm to non-targets, why haven't they gone to frangible ammo?

Oh, right - hollowpoints make bigger holes in targets. Shame that they'd be more concerned with their own safety than they would the safety of civilians that do keep handguns for self-defense in NYC. :(

[steveracer]

Was asked for my pistol permit. I said, very slowly, "It's for a rifle."
He told me it was pistol ammo, and therefore I had to have a permit.
I said, "IT'S FOR A WINCHESTER 94 .44 MAG LEVERGUN!"
He told me he could not sell me any pistol ammo without a permit, period. I politely told him he was about to lose a LOT of business, beacuse almost all of his customers were members at a local range, as he was a very small operation.
The business went under in only two years. (Had nothing to do with me) and is not missed in the old neighborhood. Fifteen minutes out of Brooklyn there's a Dick's (which I don't support at all) that everyone in the area buys ammo at.
Thank God I'm in VA!

[Igloodude]

Was asked for my pistol permit. I said, very slowly, "It's for a rifle."
He told me it was pistol ammo, and therefore I had to have a permit.
I said, "IT'S FOR A WINCHESTER 94 .44 MAG LEVERGUN!"
He told me he could not sell me any pistol ammo without a permit, period. I politely told him he was about to lose a LOT of business, beacuse almost all of his customers were members at a local range, as he was a very small operation.
The business went under in only two years. (Had nothing to do with me) and is not missed in the old neighborhood. Fifteen minutes out of Brooklyn there's a Dick's (which I don't support at all) that everyone in the area buys ammo at.
Thank God I'm in VA!

As stupid as it is, he's legally correct, sort of - you need a permit for a firearm in that caliber, one way or the other:


§ 1-05 Rifles/Shotguns and Ammunition.

(k) No ammunition suitable for use in a rifle of any calibre, or for a shotgun of
any gauge, shall be sold, given away, or otherwise disposed of to any person who has not been issued a rifle/shotgun permit and a certificate of registration, and who does not exhibit the same to the dealer at the time of purchase. Rifle or shotgun ammunition shall not be sold to any such person except for the shotgun or for the specific calibre of rifle for which the certificate of registration has been issued.

(I just hit this when looking for NYC handgun ammo laws)

[rero360]

thats interesting, I was always told when buying ammo to say it was for a carbine, and I wouldn't need to show a permit, just proof of age. not that it matters now that I have my permit, but before thats what I did to get ammo for my CX4 Storm, never had any problems.

[hammer4nc]

Two myths exploded in one article!

Myth #1: Don't blame the cops, they just enforce the law!
(It seems, through the patrolmen's benevolent association, they are doing a bit more on the political front, eh?)

Myth #2: Cops have to obey the same laws as everyone else!
"There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability." Imbedded so deeply in this quote, the double-standard mindset doesn't even seem to require explanation, with respect to things like civil rights and the constitution. Amazing.

Now, I'll be holding my breath to see the groundswell majority of pro-gun cops that we keep hearing about, who will flood the press with opposition editorials, de-fund the BPAP, and demand the firing of their president, Patrick Lynch.:neener:

[countertop]

Well, I'd hardly saddle the NYPD with the demented visions of long time noted Gun Banning Bigot Patrick Lynch. He is a union official and about as political (and far removed politically from his average union member) a union official as you are going to find.

He gets some press cause he is the voice of the Union, but as my cousin told me he generally has little credibility with the union members themselves.

[Henry Bowman]

To try to understand this perverse mind set, you have to realize that for several generations this urban culture has seen guns only in the hands of police and criminals. They cannont conceive of a third option.

[mmike87]

If they are so damn worried about hollow point bullets I think these LEO's need to look for a new line of work. Perhaps small town librarian or something.

[dasmi]

They also are readily available on the black market.
And they always will be.
Though I'm forced to wonder why anyone would go to the "black market" when
Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop...
"Anybody can go out and buy them," said Michael Palladino, head of the Detectives' Endowment Association.

[boofus]

Yup banning hollowpoints reduces crime! Just ask New Jersey. Camden NJ is once again the dubious "Most dangerous city in America"

[R.H. Lee]

It's just more incrementalism chipping away. If they can get HP's banned on some fraudulent basis, they can move on to banning FMJ's on another fraudulent basis, then all ammuntion followed by all firearms, etc., et yada, et :barf:

[Igloodude]

It's just more incrementalism chipping away. If they can get HP's banned on some fraudulent basis, they can move on to banning FMJ's on another fraudulent basis, then all ammuntion followed by all firearms, etc., et yada, et :barf:

The article already sets the stage: "Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander."

So naturally FMJs need to be banned as well, see? :barf:

[mbs357]

They also are readily available on the black market.
And banning them will make them dissapear.

[Derek Zeanah]

OK, raise your hand if you're a cop, wear a vest, and would rather the bad guys shoot at you with FMJ than a hollowpoint.

[Rumble]

If they are so damn worried about hollow point bullets I think these LEO's need to look for a new line of work. Perhaps small town librarian or something.

Hey, I'm a small-town librarian, and lemme tell you, things can get pretty crazy out here. Just the other day, the police had to take down a guy because he threw corn at someone's mailbox. Pretty dicey.

I'm also a small-town librarian who carries hollowpoints, but that's sort of beside the point.

I loved this article. It was so...dumb. Also, the whole bit about "stopping violent felons" is a bit off, since the cops really don't have to do that. They are responsible for investigating the aftermath, but there's no real penalty if they never manage to stop the bad guy.

[TheEgg]

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."

Never have I seen the anti-gun position held by some police put so clearly and in so few words. Bravo, Mr. Lynch!

:banghead: