Get nationwide concealed carry rights


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LAR-15
December 15, 2005, 03:25 PM
WHEN TO CALL:

Anytime you can


WHO TO CALL:


Honorable Howard Coble
2468 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-3306
(202) 225-3065

Rep Coble decides if this bill is brought for a vote. He is chairman of the subcomittee on crime, terrorism and homeland security.

Republican members:

Hon. Coble
Chairman
(R) North Carolina, 6th

Hon. Lungren
(R) California, 3rd

Hon. Green
(R) Wisconsin, 8th

Hon. Feeney
(R) Florida, 24th

Hon. Chabot
(R) Ohio, 1st

Hon. Keller
(R) Florida, 8th

Hon. Flake
(R) Arizona, 6th

Hon. Pence
(R) Indiana, 6th

Hon. Forbes
(R) Virginia, 4th

Hon. Gohmert
(R) Texas, 1st

Secure Access To Firearms Enhancement Act of 2005

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Standing Wolf
December 15, 2005, 08:14 PM
No, thanks. I don't want the federal government within five miles of my holster. Its attitude toward our Second Amendment civil rights has been nearly as bad as New Jersey's.

neoncowboy
December 15, 2005, 08:56 PM
No, thanks. I don't want the federal government within five miles of my holster.

+1

The feds regulating concealed carry would lead to the end of legal concealed carry...not to mention the damage they could do with a central national database of permit holders/applicants.

Scott F
December 16, 2005, 03:13 PM
May I am a little dense but I can not see what is wrong with this law. Please straighten me out.

AirForceShooter
December 16, 2005, 03:31 PM
I have the same problem as Scott F.
The Safe Act HR 1243 says nothing more than states will be required to recognize other States CCW's. In effect national recprocity. Something you would think the Constitution would require already. You know, just like the drivers license stuff.
What I want to know, is there a similiar Resoultion in the Senate?

AFS

Manedwolf
December 16, 2005, 03:34 PM
No, thanks. I don't want the federal government within five miles of my holster. Its attitude toward our Second Amendment civil rights has been nearly as bad as New Jersey's.

Had you read it? It seems to me like it's just an enforcement of Full Faith and Credit, which is SUPPOSED to be the case, as it is with drivers' licenses.

SomeKid
December 16, 2005, 03:39 PM
Does it cover D.C., and federal properties?

How will off-limit zones be handled?

Scott F
December 16, 2005, 04:05 PM
Off limit zones will be handled by the state. That is the state you are in while carrying. Just like driving. We obey driving laws of each state we travel through, or at least we are supposed to obey the driving laws. :)

I just have not seen any reason to be against this law. I could leave my home and drive to my mom's home in NC and back by my youngest son's home in San Diego without having to remove my handgun. Well, except for the shower, that would be a long trip without a shower. Yet I keep seeing posts saying "No way!" without a stated reason.

I am not being a smart a$$ for once, I really want to know why so many are against it.

gunsmith
December 16, 2005, 04:15 PM
the title of your thread is unintentionaly misleading.
The bill is for national reciprocity and not a federal license.
I suspect most are responding to your title .
a federal license would be a terrible idea and would restrict my rights
i.e in NV I can go to a bar and pack (& I do for music events, but I don't drink) but you may not do that in AZ & I doubt the fedgov would go for that.
but I suspect reciprocity is an idea we could all get behind...whattya say Standing Wolf?
(if SW gets behind it it'll pass without a hitch)

Henry Bowman
December 16, 2005, 04:19 PM
It seems to me like it's just an enforcement of Full Faith and Credit, which is SUPPOSED to be the case, as it is with drivers' licenses.
Drivers' licenses are not honored nationally because of "full faith and credit." The states have agreed with one another to give reciprocity for drivers' licenses. That is, when KY sees my OH driver's license, they give full faith and credit for what it is -- an officially issued Ohio DL. Me being allowed to use it to drive on KY public roads is because of mutual reciprocity agreements.

LaVere
December 16, 2005, 07:32 PM
Michigan already reconizes all 50 states. But only 31 state reconizes Michigan.
I think total reciprocity is needed. But some standard in law are need too.
From Michigan just to Ohio I cant figure it out, in a car.

How about If you are a US citizen you can carry any way, any place, any time providing you don't have a violent felony convitction. Example Tax evasion felony dosen't prohibit carrying.
No fees just buy and carry.
Thats it period

Scott F
December 16, 2005, 08:15 PM
I like your idea but I do not see that happening. There is little or no chance of that but this does have a chance. There are places to check the laws before you travel. Pcaking.org is a good one.


No one has been able to tell me why this is a bad law.

Standing Wolf
December 16, 2005, 09:39 PM
Hello, Manedwolf!

You wrote:

It seems to me like it's just an enforcement of Full Faith and Credit, which is SUPPOSED to be the case, as it is with drivers' licenses.

That's a great theory; unfortunately, I don't trust the federal government just to let it go at that. I trust the federal government to start there, perhaps, but then suddenly decide it needs to define some standards, establish some minimum requirements, negotiate a few common sense compromises, take some long overdue action for the sake of the children, and eventually decide carrying concealed weapons is strictly reserved for F., B., and I. agents.

The great white father is a liar. He cheats. He steals. He can stay the @#$%^&! away from my holster!

JohnKSa
December 16, 2005, 09:43 PM
No, thanks. I don't want the federal government within five miles of my holster.Agree. I'd rather have the feds stay out of this issue.

I'd rather have them stay out of most issues for that matter.

Right now there are no federal laws about concealed carry that I am aware of. If the government "grants" a right by law, they will be certain to regulate that right too. We don't need that.

taliv
December 16, 2005, 09:46 PM
i haven't read it, but am extremely skeptical.

Just because I have a TN driver's license doesn't mean I can make U turns in OH. A TN handgun permit won't let me carry in a bank in a state that bans it.

If the feds tried to push a common set of rules, no one would be happy.

as far as i'm concerned, states should make their own laws however the residents want. there shouldn't be a single federal gun law.

even if it results in a practical improvement, federal intervention is the sort of 'end justifies the means' flawed philosophy i can't bring myself to support.

Scott F
December 17, 2005, 05:55 PM
This is not a federal gun law. This is a law that says if you can carry concealed in your home state you can carry concealed in all fifty states. I fail to see how we can loose here. You live in ABC state and you ate going to XYZ state. You go to packing.org, read an overview of their laws and make the trip with your gun on your hip. How hard can it be? I live in Oregon, I can carry in schools and bars. I want o go to Washington, I remember not to carry in schools or bars. I do not have and IQ of 200 but I think I can remember not to go into a school or a bar when I am in Washington.

But some would rather stand on their rights and not carry because the states you want to travel through do not honor your states permits. I guess many of you think this is better. I donít. I can spend a lot of money and get permits for thirty four states but if I am driving across country I still canít cross Kansas or Illinois under current laws. I can not carry if I visit my son in California. How is this good?

Again, please help me understand where this is a bad law. I just can not see it.

Oh yes, before anyone forms a hard and fast opinion on this, read the law for yourself and do not let others tell you what it says. :)

Berek
December 17, 2005, 06:41 PM
Michigan already reconizes all 50 states. But only 31 state reconizes Michigan.
I think total reciprocity is needed. But some standard in law are need too.
From Michigan just to Ohio I cant figure it out, in a car.

How about If you are a US citizen you can carry any way, any place, any time providing you don't have a violent felony convitction. Example Tax evasion felony dosen't prohibit carrying.
No fees just buy and carry.
Thats it period

For starters, I agree that there should be reciprocity, the problem is that some states do not require permits to own while others do. In a situation like that, where is the solice that the person coming to my state isn't going to strip that smokewagon because we deny because of one thing or other while another does not?

In other words, to get reciprocity, restrictions would have to be increased in some states, decreased in others or both. Now, for current permit holders, there should be a grandfather clause, but I can see them getting upset when someone is denied for something that they themselves may have done but was allowed.

In closing, while I agree there should be standardized regulations regarding ownership, which states are going to be forced to reduced there regulations and which will have to become stricker and, in the end, who pays the price?

Just my $0.02...

Hawkmoon
December 18, 2005, 10:06 AM
In other words, to get reciprocity, restrictions would have to be increased in some states, decreased in others or both. Now, for current permit holders, there should be a grandfather clause, but I can see them getting upset when someone is denied for something that they themselves may have done but was allowed.
Why would restrictions have to change in any state? I don't understand.

My state has certain rules pertaining to drivers licenses. To get a drivers license, a person in my state has to jump through the appropriate hoops, and once they have the license it is recognized in all 49 of the other states. But in Wyoming I follow Wyoming's rules of operation, in California I follow California's rules, etc. The rules to obtain a license may be looser in Wyoming and stricter in California, but they both honor my driver's license and none of the states modify their requirements.

Why is a CCW any different? My state doesn't require a concealed handgun to be caried in plain sight when driving. Ohio does. So what? If driving through Ohio I would have to carry the gun in plain sight, whether I have an Ohio CCW, a Montana CCW, a Florida CCW, or even if I'm from Vermont and I am not required toi have any CCW at all.

I just don't see a problem with this.

Berek
December 19, 2005, 03:48 AM
Why would restrictions have to change in any state? I don't understand.

My state has certain rules pertaining to drivers licenses. To get a drivers license, a person in my state has to jump through the appropriate hoops, and once they have the license it is recognized in all 49 of the other states. But in Wyoming I follow Wyoming's rules of operation, in California I follow California's rules, etc. The rules to obtain a license may be looser in Wyoming and stricter in California, but they both honor my driver's license and none of the states modify their requirements.

Why is a CCW any different? My state doesn't require a concealed handgun to be caried in plain sight when driving. Ohio does. So what? If driving through Ohio I would have to carry the gun in plain sight, whether I have an Ohio CCW, a Montana CCW, a Florida CCW, or even if I'm from Vermont and I am not required toi have any CCW at all.

I just don't see a problem with this.

The problem is that, with driving a car, the majority of the requirements (almost all...) are the same, regardless of state. With pistol permits (let alone CCW) it's not. I can move to a state that allows me to own a handgun as long as I wait or pass the standard NICS check. In NY, you have to have a pistol permit and each county has its own requirements. As an example, In Cattaraugus County, NY, I do not need to take a pistol training course. If I cross the county line to Erie County, NY, I do. Catt County appears to have no problem issuing a CCW to anyone able to have a general pistol permit, where Erie County, you must show just cause.

With this in mind, How do I know you aren't someone who snapped, moved to another state because the requirements are easier and are now coming to NY to go nuts? How do I know that you aren't going to snap and use the new Florida ruling because you felt threatened simply because you wanted to take the metro rail and someone got too close to you? That ruling doesn't apply here, but would be used as your defense because, well, "all states should recognize whatever laws you have to follow or will allow your defense in your state even is the same laws aren't here." (You may not think that you would use a law/ruling from your state as a defense, but I heard this come up in conversation recently)

Bottom line, I feel that if I have to jump through these hoops in my state, you should have similar in yours to be able to carry in mine. It allows for the peace of mind for the general public.

Or should we reduce the requirements across NY state (including NYC) and come to your state? How safe would you feel? How safe would your community feel? You as an individual may not have a problem, but you and I aren't the only ones on this planet. If the population was limited to responsible ppl, life would be simple. But it's not. And I have seen many ppl that do something at the range that show they should not have guns or should at least go through a training course, but that wasn't a requirement for them to own guns.

BTW, a pistol permit is required for all carries and ownership here in NY state, not just NYC, but the whole state.

But I ramble. Next?

ingram
December 19, 2005, 04:50 AM
Involving the Feds is asking for troubles later.

Just get permits in neighboring states if you can. It may be a hassle but it would be worth it. Allow the feds to regulate this now, and you are setting a precedent for a time when dems may run the country.

It would be nice for me if permits were recognized in all states, but the people in states with higher restrictions would be cheated. Life isn't fair, but I would prefer it if you had to pass the certain state's regulations to carry in that state.

I just can't see how this law could lead to anything good. Sure, it may make interstate travel easier for some of us, but the consequences outweigh the gain. The differences in state CCW regulation would not permit this law to remain unaltered for long, as the states with stricter regulations are sure to complain (which they have good right to).

+1 to the Feds staying away from people's CCW permits

cz75bdneos22
December 19, 2005, 02:34 PM
Michigan already reconizes all 50 states. But only 31 state reconizes Michigan.
I think total reciprocity is needed. But some standard in law are need too.
From Michigan just to Ohio I cant figure it out, in a car.

How about If you are a US citizen you can carry any way, any place, any time providing you don't have a violent felony convitction. Example Tax evasion felony dosen't prohibit carrying.
No fees just buy and carry.
Thats it period

No, thanks....i disagree..YMMV:banghead:

gunsmith
December 20, 2005, 11:21 PM
:neener: Oh yes, before anyone forms a hard and fast opinion on this, read the law for yourself and do not let others tell you what it says.
You mean ...don't go off half cocked, you want me to actually read and think!?
What are you trying to do!? ...your trying to have an intelligent conversation...I knew it!
You must be one of those evil right wingers..huh?!:D

Hawkmoon
December 21, 2005, 12:11 PM
With this in mind, How do I know you aren't someone who snapped, moved to another state because the requirements are easier and are now coming to NY to go nuts? How do I know that you aren't going to snap and use the new Florida ruling because you felt threatened simply because you wanted to take the metro rail and someone got too close to you? That ruling doesn't apply here, but would be used as your defense because, well, "all states should recognize whatever laws you have to follow or will allow your defense in your state even is the same laws aren't here." (You may not think that you would use a law/ruling from your state as a defense, but I heard this come up in conversation recently)

Bottom line, I feel that if I have to jump through these hoops in my state, you should have similar in yours to be able to carry in mine. It allows for the peace of mind for the general public.
So then (a) you obviously would not feel comfortable living in Vermont or Alaska, and (b) you apparently don't subscribe to the view that all CCW laws are fundamentally Constitutionally invalid.

Your argument doesn't work. Last I knew, drivers' training requirements varied widely from state to state. Yet you don't seem too concerned that somebody who has had little or no drivers' training can drive a 2-ton projectile through your neighborhood on the basis of a license issued in another state. I can't see any reason it should work differently for CCW. We're talking carry here, not purchase. NICS checks or not, as I understand it it is still illegal to purchase a handgun out of state. (I'm not saying I agree that it should be, simply that it is.) This is not something to allow the Boston gang-bangers to buy their arsenals in Maine and New Hampshire, this is to allow citizens the right to self-defense in other states.

Why is this a bad thing?

gunsmith
December 21, 2005, 01:31 PM
Berek
With this in mind, How do I know you aren't someone who snapped, moved to another state because the requirements are easier and are now coming to NY to go nuts?
That guy who went nuts on the train that time did not have a ccw,he only owned a handgun. A pretty easy thing to do if you don't reside in the peoples republic of new york.
NY is an excellent place to "go nuts" you can kill as many as you like before you need to reload and then have someone tackle you. (No one can resist in NY because ccw's are so rare) NY gun control works great for criminals, it's the only place in America I have gotten guns stuck in my face by thugs taking my money.
Here in Reno if some idiot decided to "go nuts" a ccw holder would finish him off quick.

gunsmith
December 21, 2005, 01:44 PM
Florida ruling because you felt threatened simply because you wanted to take the metro rail and someone got too close to you?

Berek-you mean the stand your ground law? If you do then your getting your info from the bradybunch.

38SnubFan
December 21, 2005, 06:40 PM
I think the biggest concern with national reciprocity is the fact that different states have different guidelines for obtaining permits. Some are more leniant than others. Here in PA where I live, it's as simple as going to the County Sheriff's Office (or Chief Of Police in Philadelphia), filling out the form, showing two forms of ID, paying the $19 fee, and coming back in a couple weeks after the background check clears to have my photo taken and permit issued.

As far as restrictions on carry/prohibitions, that's something that anyone can and SHOULD be going to packing.org for.

I just checked there for Florida's processes for obtaining a non-resident permit there, as I'm considering obtaining one since so many states accept them and would allow me to travel with it more. They require a training course and fingerprints, and background checks there can take up to 90 days (I think longer still for non-residents - up to 6 months because they handle such a large request for Non-Resident Permits).

I too, would like to see some sort of National CCW Reciprocity, as it's already in force for LEOs and is considered "obvious legislative intent". However, I think before that happens, there has to be some type of nationwide minimum standards for obtaining that permit.

I personally, would not have a problem here in PA with a training requirement. I've been trained and can demonstate both proficiency and safety with my guns. However, unfortunately, I do go to the range and see some people, both young and old, from all different backgrounds, who probably should not have a gun, much less a permit to carry it.

As always, just my $.02

-38SnubFan

gunsmith
December 21, 2005, 11:51 PM
However, unfortunately, I do go to the range and see some people, both young and old, from all different backgrounds, who probably should not have a gun, much less a permit to carry it.



I see irresponsible journalist printing lies about treatment of prisoners in gitmo ( see "flushing Koran" ) and causing riots and death.
I see people killing each other (see "irresponsible Bible holders") in Ireland because some are English/Prostestant & others are Catholic Irish.
I see irresponsible parents beating their children or not teaching them to behave themselves.
those folks have rights not permits, you don't need a permit to cause a riot by printing a lie in the press & you don't need a permit to own a copy machine, or a Bible or a Koran and these things really do kill people if used irresponsibly...if you need a permit it isn't a right.
I have a ccw only because I could be arrested- I detest that I have to have one. I think those that you see disobeying gun safety rules should be promptly ejected from the range

Berek
December 22, 2005, 01:38 PM
So then (a) you obviously would not feel comfortable living in Vermont or Alaska, and (b) you apparently don't subscribe to the view that all CCW laws are fundamentally Constitutionally invalid.

Your argument doesn't work. Last I knew, drivers' training requirements varied widely from state to state. Yet you don't seem too concerned that somebody who has had little or no drivers' training can drive a 2-ton projectile through your neighborhood on the basis of a license issued in another state. I can't see any reason it should work differently for CCW. We're talking carry here, not purchase. NICS checks or not, as I understand it it is still illegal to purchase a handgun out of state. (I'm not saying I agree that it should be, simply that it is.) This is not something to allow the Boston gang-bangers to buy their arsenals in Maine and New Hampshire, this is to allow citizens the right to self-defense in other states.

Why is this a bad thing?

For startes, I do feel that some CCW laws are rediculous. I would not feel safe in a state where the requirements for CCW are such that anyone can get one. I know Vermont, never been to Alaska, but the mentality of Vermont is different than that of NY. Because of the decades of crap our state government has applied, our moods are touchier.

As for driving issues, most of the laws are the same. There are some that do make me wonder, such as (I don't know if it is still the case, but it was when I was younger) in PA, you could get your permit when you were 14. IMHO, that would not be good in NY as we have an even mix of mature and immature 14 year-olds, leaning toward the immature. So, as for your argument about driving, no. I do not feel safe regarding all drivers. Especially since I've been to Mass. and saw how they drive and watched them bring it here. The majority that I've seen are nuts.

Now, insofar as CCW is concerned, my main concern is FULL reciprocity. Why should I have to jump through 30 hoops to get a CCW in my state when you have to jump through 1 to carry in my state or visa versa? It falls more under the equal treatment than anything else.

I will state as clearly as possible, I AM NOT AGAINST RECIROCITY, I AM FOR IT. I do, however feel that concessions will have to be made by all states. My questions are which ones and how much?

Berek
December 22, 2005, 02:07 PM
Berek-you mean the stand your ground law? If you do then your getting your info from the bradybunch.

Actually, I was basing it on some of the comments I read here on THR. It was also a stretch of possibilities.

To clarify, I posted what my point was in a recent post to Hawkman...

Henry Bowman
December 22, 2005, 02:14 PM
I would not feel safe in a state where the requirements for CCW are such that anyone can get one. I know Vermont, never been to Alaska, but the mentality of Vermont is different than that of NY. Because of the decades of crap our state government has applied, our moods are touchier. Moods might mellow out a bit after a couple months of "anybody can carry." You know, the old "armed polite society." "Survival of the ones who can control their mouths," etc. ;)

Berek
December 22, 2005, 02:14 PM
However, unfortunately, I do go to the range and see some people, both young and old, from all different backgrounds, who probably should not have a gun, much less a permit to carry it.
My point here was more of a question. That being: If they are this irresponsible on the range, what would they be like with a CCW???

I think those that you see disobeying gun safety rules should be promptly ejected from the range

I agree. The biggest issue I have with my club is that, in order to do that, I have to go back into the club house, tell the steward-on-duty, who cannot leave the club house, then it gets reported to the board, and by then, the damage may already have been done. Unfortunately, we do not have anyone as an on-duty range officer and there is no one member higher in rank than another unless you're on the board.

I have submitted that we need an on-duty range officer or at least 2 stewards, but it keeps getting voted down due to costs.

Berek
December 22, 2005, 02:16 PM
Moods might mellow out a bit after a couple months of "anybody can carry." You know, the old "armed polite society." "Survival of the ones who can control their mouths," etc. ;)

I dunno, I've been to NYC... ;)

Henry Bowman
December 22, 2005, 02:22 PM
I dunno, I've been to NYC... I'm not saying that the herd wouldn't be thinned a bit before the idea catches on. :uhoh:

Michael Courtney
December 22, 2005, 04:30 PM
Agree. I'd rather have the feds stay out of this issue.

I'd rather have them stay out of most issues for that matter.

Right now there are no federal laws about concealed carry that I am aware of. If the government "grants" a right by law, they will be certain to regulate that right too. We don't need that.

Well said, it might just be reciprocity now, but lookout for the push for "uniformity" that would come later.

Michael Courtney

Scott F
December 22, 2005, 04:37 PM
:neener:
You mean ...don't go off half cocked, you want me to actually read and think!?
What are you trying to do!? ...your trying to have an intelligent conversation...I knew it!
You must be one of those evil right wingers..huh?!:D

I know I should be ashamed of myself.

I have read the law and I have read every word posted here. I still have seen no one post a reasonable reply telling me why this law is bad.

Let me put it this way. I have served my country for twenty-four years. My uniform shows among other things twenty four years of good conduct. I have carried a Top Secret clearance for eighteen years. I have never been arrested anywhere for anything. I the last twenty nine years I have had no moving violations nor have I had a parking ticket. My record is squeaky clean. I have a Concealed Handgun License in my home state. If I want to travel to San Diego to see my son and his wife I can not carry because California will not issue out of state permits and the will not recognize any other states permits. Why not? What makes me a good enough citizen in Oregon to carry almost everywhere but as soon as I cross the state line into California I become someone of something else and I am not trustworthy enough to carry.

This law would force California to recognize my Permit. Every state would have to recognize my permit. Why is this law bad?

Much of what I read is ďstick your head in the sandĒ mentality. It is something like ďI donít understand it so I donít want it.Ē

I will admit every one who carries would be responsible to know and follow the carry laws of every state he visits and decides to carry. If we were to get non resident carry permits for every state that issues them we would still be required to know and follow the laws for every state we visit and decide to carry. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL?

Again, please show me where I am wrong. My mind is not like a steel trap, you know, rusted shut. I can be convinced but no one has yet shown me a valid reason this law is bad.

Matthew748
December 22, 2005, 04:44 PM
For startes, I do feel that some CCW laws are rediculous. I would not feel safe in a state where the requirements for CCW are such that anyone can get one.

And that is why I am not in favor of a national bill enforcing reciprocation. If you like the laws in New Jersey, New York and Maryland, thatís fine, stay there. Do not come to Indiana. I like my state, and its laid back approach to CCW permits, the way it is.

CAPTAIN MIKE
December 22, 2005, 05:45 PM
If we ourselves don't go all out to help this bill make it to the floor and then go all out to help it PASS, we should all sign a "No Whining" pledge if we don't get National Reciprocity during the remaining 2 years of the Bush Administration.

I will be the first to sign. As for me, "National Reciprocity" makes sense and I am all for it. It is long overdue and we should all put aside our differences, take off our tin foil hats and both call AND write our Congressional Reps.

To paraphrase Patrick Henry, "I know not what course others may take, but as for me....Give me NATIONAL RECIPROCITY....and No Whining by those who fail to participate !!".

FallenAngel
December 22, 2005, 08:53 PM
It confuses me that so many people here who say they believe carrying a firearm is a RIGHT and there should be no permit are saying that they do not want someone coming to their state who have a less strict process to get a permit.

I am all for having NO gun laws except for violent felons (who will probably ignore them anyway). Since it will never be like that, I am for the law requiring states to recognize the permits of other states.

Scott F
December 22, 2005, 08:53 PM
And that is why I am not in favor of a national bill enforcing reciprocation. If you like the laws in New Jersey, New York and Maryland, thatís fine, stay there. Do not come to Indiana. I like my state, and its laid back approach to CCW permits, the way it is.


Again, have you read the law? If you live in a state where you like the laws then the rest of us should not be able to carry in your state? Help me please, I just do not see why you would be against reciprocity.

This law simply says that if you can carry in your home state you can carry in all fifty states. It WILL NOT CHANGE THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE. It just allows you to carry in all fifty states with your permit. But you would rather limit your rights to carry because you like the laws I your state better than the laws in some other states.

Scott F
December 22, 2005, 09:02 PM
For startes, I do feel that some CCW laws are rediculous. I would not feel safe in a state where the requirements for CCW are such that anyone can get one.

So are you in favor of appealing the second amendment or it just that you are the one who should say who can and who can not carry? Should I lock my gun away and await your permission to carry it? If you live in a state where it is easier to jump over the moon than it is to get a carry permit then the rest of the country should suffer? Is it because you live in a repressive state that the rest of the country should not be able to carry across state lines?

Berek
December 22, 2005, 10:57 PM
So are you in favor of appealing the second amendment or it just that you are the one who should say who can and who can not carry? Should I lock my gun away and await your permission to carry it? If you live in a state where it is easier to jump over the moon than it is to get a carry permit then the rest of the country should suffer? Is it because you live in a repressive state that the rest of the country should not be able to carry across state lines?

Ok, have you missed the capitolized posts and explainations, or are you just illiterate???

I have gone over this. I, me, myself, Berek, the name I call myself, yada freakin yada, has nothing to do with whether you or anyone other than myself gets a CCW. You want a scenario? Fine. Here:

Someone moves to your illustrious golden center of the universe, establishes their residency, gets their CCW, returns to the state from which they came and wreak havoc.

3 months. 3 lousy little months. Maybe less, depending on what your state deems as residency. A year? Fine. Tell me there haven't been ppl out there that haven't held a grudge for a year, WITHOUT lying.

What really sucks is that you made my point. As I said before is that my point was more of a question. Which states suffer and/or which states benefit?

I said and I quote:
I will state as clearly as possible, I AM NOT AGAINST RECIROCITY, I AM FOR IT. I do, however feel that concessions will have to be made by all states. My questions are which ones and how much?

Fair is fair. I don't care if you like it or me or my dog, but this country is constantly screaming for fairness. Why not those of us in states with heavier laws?

Berek
December 22, 2005, 11:05 PM
At this point I would like to apologize to those of you that actually read the full post before replying and remove myself from this thread. Due to one poster, I have already broken my New Year's resolution regarding bashing/name calling.

To those that do not read a full post, jump to conclusions, or are imitating the unfortunate that are illiterate, no apology is warrented nor given.

Scott F
December 23, 2005, 12:24 AM
Berek

Letís start over. I read the whole post, three times. I also read your last two posts. All of them. I will skip the bashing and name thing and forgive and forget.

OK Now I am starting to see your problem with carrying. If I have it right, you do not like the fact that some states have a much easier time getting a permit than others. You would rather all states were as difficult as you poor guys in NY. (BTW I was born in Little Falls NY) So if we were to make the laws so that every state were the same as the toughest state then that would not be NY but probably IL where if you carry you become a felon. I an NOT in favor of that.

Now about your state switching, gun toting bad guy. A man lives in NY and has a grudge against an upstanding citizen. I can see that happening, no problem. Then he moves to another state, gets an address and a new drivers license. He waits for residency in the new state and then applies for and gets a permit to carry. This takes one week in the new state. He then moves back to NY where he can now carry concealed under the new federal law. He looks up the upstanding citizen and uses his concealed carry to kill the man he is mad at as well as his wife, their seven children, the maid and both the family dogs. Before the new federal law he would not have been able to obtain a NY carry permit because he got a parking ticket in 1968.

I donít see it happening. If he were the kind of person who would kill out of anger then he is the kind of person who a permit would mean nothing. The streets of New York City are full of criminals carrying concealed handguns without a permit just as the streets of Portland Oregon are full of criminals carrying concealed handguns. That is the precise reason you and I want to carry legally.

Once again, please forgive my rudeness in my post and I have already forgiven your reply. And, please show me the error of my thoughts.

Scott F
December 23, 2005, 01:03 AM
OK. I admit I am too stupid to understand anything about concealed carry and the issues that surround it.

I make a sincere apology to Berek for my post and my stupidity. The only reason I posted in reply to is post was my own lack of moral fiber. This will be my last post. I will never again darken the doors of Berekís world. I hope he gets his way with this law.

gunsmith
December 24, 2005, 05:33 AM
I have some grudges! I have had arguments with people I hate while packing a gun, I have been attacked while packing a gun. Yet I managed to somehow not shoot anyone.
The only place I have ever been mugged is NY, the only place I have ever had a gun in my face while being robbed is NY, I got stabbed in my apartment in NY. Lack of reciprocity means I will no longer spend money in NY.
I ccw in CA because it's a misdeameanor, in NY rapist and murderers carry all the time, law abiding citizens can just die waiting for police:barf:

what is with this whole grudge thing berek? it just doesn't make sense.
I think you're projecting, you have grudges and would kill because you do?
Berek please go over to www.jpfo.org and read "raging against self defense"
NY's gun laws are insane & written by insane people who think no one but police and military can be reponsible enough to carry guns, Floridians are way worse then NY'ers (& tons of NY'ers live in FL, my family for instance)
they manage not to have blood in the streets-so can NY!
I agree with Scott, I have seen no compelling argument not to support this bill.....now if we can only get Standing Wolf on our side!

Matthew748
December 24, 2005, 07:00 AM
Again, have you read the law? If you live in a state where you like the laws then the rest of us should not be able to carry in your state? Help me please, I just do not see why you would be against reciprocity.

We all know that a proposed law can start out one way and end up as a very different animal. My concern is that if a law like this ever came about one of the "compromises" would be stricter federal control imposed upon all the states. It would probably be done in the name of standardization. Do you think they would choose Indiana, Alaksa, or Pennsylvania as the model? No way, they would choose New Jersey, Maryland, or New York. No thank you, it is too risky.

Besides, the states are making great strides in the area of permit reciprocation. There is no need for federal involvement.

K-hornet
December 24, 2005, 12:17 PM
We all know that a proposed law can start out one way and end up as a very different animal. My concern is that if a law like this ever came about one of the "compromises" would be stricter federal control imposed upon all the states. It would probably be done in the name of standardization. Do you think they would choose Indiana, Alaksa, or Pennsylvania as the model? No way, they would choose New Jersey, Maryland, or New York. No thank you, it is too risky.

Besides, the states are making great strides in the area of permit reciprocation. There is no need for federal involvement.

Any law can be changed. By your example we should support every bad law and hope it changes to the better and fight with our lives to kill every good law because it can only get worse.

My state does not recognize any other states permits and has no plans to ever recognize any other state permits. If we ever hope to realize the dream of carrying from North to South and from East to West then we need to get our heads out of the sand and stand behind this law. If not, then I can not see nationwide reciprocity in my lifetime. I choose to stand with those who do not think the sky is falling.

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