Just had a shoplifter in my store.


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V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 04:39 PM
This is a prime example of why we need the handgun age limit lowered to 18. I was helping my dad cut some wire for a customer when my mom called out for my dad. He could tell by her voice that something wasn't right. He ran out to her & caught a 20 something kid stealing a $8.00 noise filter. He said he was trying to see if it would work on his truck. Yeah right. And I'm the guy who invented Pepsi. We got the filter back my dad told him not to come in our store again. He had 2 friends inside that I was watching meanwhile in case they were in on it. They said they didn't know anything, so we let them go. Ever since we opened this store I've been training & practicing for these situations. My mom knew what to do because I told her what area to watch for shoplifters. To you all out there, KEEP A SHARP EYE!

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Car Knocker
December 15, 2005, 04:42 PM
This is a prime example of why we need the handgun age limit lowered to 18.

And what exactly would you have done if you had a handgun in this situation?

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 04:44 PM
Then I could post a sign on the door saying "This store is protected from thieves & killers by 3 Colt 1911 .45 caliber handguns. You feeling lucky?"

chris in va
December 15, 2005, 04:48 PM
Petty shoplifting has nothing to do with handguns.

Might want to take a few classes on when/how firearms are to be used.

Tomcat1066
December 15, 2005, 04:48 PM
And if you try to draw your weapon on an unarmed shoplifter, then you are then the criminal.

A handgun won't help with your routine shoplifter. An armed robbery, sure, but not a shoplifter.

About the only other thing you could have done legally would be to call the police.

Tom

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 04:53 PM
I wasn't going to shoot him. I figure the sign would scare off 2 bit shoplifters. Armed bandits, I would have shot.

Shipwreck
December 15, 2005, 05:04 PM
If U post that sign, I think U will loose customers. I caught shoplifters on a daily basis for 5 years at a major department store. U can't use a gun when apprehending a shoplifter...

rick_reno
December 15, 2005, 05:05 PM
Maybe he was a Katrina survivor and needed the filter to feed his family. ;)

MAUSER88
December 15, 2005, 05:07 PM
Then I could post a sign on the door saying "This store is protected from thieves & killers by 3 Colt 1911 .45 caliber handguns. You feeling lucky?"

I like your line of thinking!!

hso
December 15, 2005, 05:08 PM
V4,

Chill with all the shoot first feelings. Taking a baseball bat to them is so much more satisfying.:evil:

Atticus
December 15, 2005, 05:09 PM
If U post that sign, I think U will loose customers. I caught shoplifters on a daily basis for 5 years at a major department store. U can't use a gun when apprehending a shoplifter...


No...but if you own your own business and the cornered shoplifter pulls a weapon on you, a gun might come in handy.

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 05:09 PM
Alright, I won't post the sign. It's not a Katrina victim. You can't eat a noise filter. Any of you got any tips for dealing with shoplifters?

oh blanky
December 15, 2005, 05:10 PM
You invented Pepsi?

Zundfolge
December 15, 2005, 05:13 PM
Petty shoplifting has nothing to do with handguns.

Bovine Scat.

My cousin was a security guard at a department store until he stopped a shoplifter and was shot to death.


Confronting shop lifters is something I would prefer to do armed thankyouverymuch.

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 05:14 PM
I didn't invent Pepsi. That was sarcasam.

hso
December 15, 2005, 05:20 PM
V4,

He's just being silly back.

Shoplifting is serious business for small businesses, but a little OT for a gun board.

The truth of the matter is that you can't employ a gun in the prevention/apprehension of shoplifters.

You can employ a gun in a self defense role.

You can look to the problems of having to use a gun in the store.

What sort of shop is it?

What's the layout?

Can you lay out the store with an eye towards lanes of fire and cover and conealment?

Can to deny concealment to the BG while keeping your family safe?

fjolnirsson
December 15, 2005, 05:26 PM
Any of you got any tips for dealing with shoplifters?
__________________

Sure.
Those corner mounted mirrors? Get 'em. But be sure to mount them right. And be aware that thieves use them, too. They help with the most inexperienced crooks, though. CCTV systems are cheap now, compared to what they used to be. Makes for good evidence later. And the cameras are a deterrent, again, only with the inexperienced. You can also buy cheap, battery operated imitation cameras to supplement the real ones.
Watch for unseasonal dress. A huge, thick coat in 90 % weather is a dead giveaway of ....something. Could be a thief, could be someone with flu chills, out to buy some essentials. Point is, look for suspicious behavior. If something doesn't look right, it probably isn't.
Good customer service helps. Greet every customer as they enter, looking them in the eye as you do so. Thieves don't like this, as it means you have seen them, and could remeber them later. They don't want to be noticed.
I could get into some of the more elaborate setups I've seen, but those are usually reserved for "big" targets.

Cosmoline
December 15, 2005, 05:28 PM
Petty shoplifting has nothing to do with handguns.

Might want to take a few classes on when/how firearms are to be used.

Confronting a shoplifter has EVERYTHING to do with firearms! What are you supposed to use if they throw down? Harsh language?

Shoplifting is serious business for small businesses, but a little OT for a gun board.


How so? IMHO you are patently insane to confront a criminal in the act of committing a felony without some iron. This attitude that shoplifters are just harmless kids is deeply naive. Many are hardened members of shoplifting rings, into an array of criminal enterprises. You want to bet your life on them coming quietly?

The truth of the matter is that you can't employ a gun in the prevention/apprehension of shoplifters.


Where are you getting that from? You can't KILL them for stealing from you, but you sure better be ready with a firearm if they try to attack you.

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 05:29 PM
We sell stuff like CB radio's, TV's, Tye-Dye's, Leather products, etc.

There is no cover. Just some glass cases & pegboard for concealment. We already greet people as they enter & have camera's.

VirgilCaine
December 15, 2005, 05:29 PM
Then I could post a sign on the door saying "This store is protected from thieves & killers by 3 Colt 1911 .45 caliber handguns. You feeling lucky?"

Then the bad guys will come in and say "We have three 12 gauge shotguns, do YOU feel lucky?"

Like everyone else said, guns aren't the way to deal with shoplifters.

MICHAEL T
December 15, 2005, 05:36 PM
You caught a shoplifter and let him go. Why? To my way of thinking he should have been turned over to police along with his friends. They could sort out and charge. The way you slow the problem down is have them arrested. Word will get out now. Hey! if were caught he will let us go and no police Good luck

Cosmoline
December 15, 2005, 05:37 PM
Then the bad guys will come in and say "We have three 12 gauge shotguns, do YOU feel lucky?"

Like everyone else said, guns aren't the way to deal with shoplifters.

What do you mean, everyone else?

That is the argument of an ANTI, used to argue against any civilian firearm ownership. It's the same old song. If civilians arm, the bad guys will just bring bigger guns. It's not only deeply illogical, it's been proven TOTALLY FALSE in state after state after state after state, including the one I'm in.

IT IS A VERY BAD IDEA TO CONFRONT A SHOPLIFTER WITHOUT A FIREARM FOR PROTECTION. You can do it if you want, but only if you want to join the legions of unarmed minimum wage security guards who got seriously hurt or killed over a pair of pants.

If someone was coming into your home to steal your TV, would you set down your rifle before challenging them? If someone was stealing your car, would you disarm yourself before challenging them?

Do you oppose the many gun store owners who openly pack firearms on the job?

jefnvk
December 15, 2005, 05:42 PM
Pulling a gun on a shoplifter is not right. Having the gun with you (preferably concealed, or at least holsered) when confronting the shoplifter is.

And the age for handgun ownership is 18, at least on the federal level.

Cosmoline
December 15, 2005, 05:46 PM
Nobody is suggesting pointing a firearm at someone for shoplifting, but if you aren't legally able to even HAVE a handgun on you and you can't carry a long gun in the store then just let them take what they want. It's not worth the risk of confronting someone with nothing but your upright morals.

Rezin
December 15, 2005, 05:48 PM
And we have great evidence why the hangun age is NOT 18..............






NEVER let shoplifters go. Call the police. You think this is the first/last thing he'll try to steal?

mbs357
December 15, 2005, 05:50 PM
Petty theft is no reason to use a handgun...but the shoplifter could have escalated the situation easily.
In which case, he'd be unable to defend himself well because he's not permitted to carry a handgun at his age.

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 05:58 PM
The handgun age limit in NC is 21. I can't just greet people at the door with a 12 gauge. That's one of the reasons I want to move to Wyoming. They have practicly no gun laws. It wasn't my idea to let him go. That was my dad's. I was watching the other 2.

sm
December 15, 2005, 06:06 PM
Software not Hardware.

I strongly suggest, getting hard copies of State Statues , and taking a real good hard look at the use of lethal force, definitions of shoplifting, false arrest... taking a training class, sitting in on some Criminal Justice Classes,attending some jury trials, asking a seasoned LEO , seasoned Retired LEO, seasoned Insurance Investigator...to do a walk thru and make determinations of weak , vulnerable security and how to be less Vulnerable.

Have and use code and passwords.

I know a LOT about this.
If an employee mentioned in a calm, controlled tone, the vet called to say my cat was fine - all hell might be about to break loose. I do not have a cat, I hate cats.

If someone "yelled" - it meant they busted the coffee pot in the sink, got mustard on a silk blouse or me cussing because I was pissed at some Political Idiot heard on the news - or Pissed the Damn Delivery Folks screwed up royally.

Calm, cool, "phrases, passwords, codewords" used when serious matters needed to be addressed.

"Oh phooey!" is what my elder saleslady / bookeep helper said, in a normal tone of voice when she caught the trash can on fire ( her job to do B-day candles) ...just sat in the sink and used a sprayer extension to put it out. Asked why she didn't use the little fire extinguisher " damn things get crap everywhere, not to mention $8.99 plus tax...I'd rather use that money for you to buy me lunch". [she meant it too]

When I was married and had a stepson. If the calm mention of my daughter called from school - All eyes up front and all employees took the actions we had practiced over and over and over again.

If that light fixture went out up front and in view of everyone - it was supposed to - it signaled a problem. Again pre-planned actions went into play.

If another light came ON up front / elsewheres- it meant the business guy next door had a situation and we were to cover his six, call LEO on direct line and do whatever we could to help, observe and to watch our business in case this was a diversion.

If I mentioned in calm casual voice " How is the wife/ hubby doing" - that told the widow/ widower to proceed with our pre- planned trained repsonses.

We also had methods to inform others not in view of front. Like the business next door ...reciprocal is good.

What if the 'shoplifter' was actually a decoy? I mean his "role" was get attention, maybe even put back the noise filter, and run. One of you chases him, leaving less folks to watch store. Now the armed BGS have everyone in a bunch, and under their control.

Oh yeah, I studied this real hard.

I was born into this 'world' . We did not have 911. We had black rotary phones. Ask me about hiding in the broom closet and calling the Local cops on direct line at age 8. Yeah, we had a hardwired phone in a closet. My job was to hide and call.

Didn't have CCW permits. I damn sure had a loaded Model 10 in my workbench at age 13, the pump shotgun behind the doors I had trained with as well...it was kid sized for a reason. I hear a shot up front, I hit the deck, get below the concrete and steel cover built into the "shop" and I did not come out until the code words for all clear were given. Another hidden hardwired rotary phone(s) with an unlisted number were in "unique" places.

Check the stats for yelling "shoplifter" and the person has NO stolen good on his person.

Ask me about someone that sweated whom called a person a shoplifter. Seasoned LEO, detective showed up as asked. Professional Shoplifter did NOT have the Mdse. The Mdse was gone. Seasoned detective knew how to listen to not what said, but read a person and read body language.

--

Difference in Wannabe's and Pros. True Case.

Professional Shoplifters.

Lady came in and wanted to look at Loose diamonds with her son - he was getting engaged. Attractive lady, dressed in very expensive clothes, wearing expensive Jlry. She produced a picture of a mounting , while the 2ct diamonds were on the desk, "oops" she spilled her lipstick and it rolled under the desk. She pawned a 2 ct diamond when the Jeweler bend down to retrieve the lipstick.

Diamond is missing, where is it? Where did it go? Only 3 persons in that private showing room.

Husband was late " caught in traffic" and was eating a apple. Lady greets husband, son is asked to "stay seated" - that dia is still missing, must be the kid - right? Wrong, he did not have it.

Husband calls the "family attorney" he is "outraged". He has that apple, a few bites were out when he entered, wifey fussed about being so "tacky" - he replies he missed lunch...
Husband declined to toss apple into trash can when small trash can is offered. !!Click!!

Seasoned Detective, called upon request of Jlr, other officers watching the outside...might be a diversion for folks next door...
Seasoned Detective - "Sir, since you and your family are waiting for your attorney, and since you claim innocence...please toss the apple. He finally tossed the apple. Very neatly a hole and plug in that apple...2ct dia in that apple. The Jlr got his diamond back and not charged with false arrest. It was close though, so very very close.



---

They can have any damn thing in the store, that is what insurance is for. Now hurt one of the employees, produce any weapon with intent to hurt an employee, attempt to take them as hostage...nobody was gonna be a hostage. Nobody, especially one of the younger ladies was going to a back room with a BG(s) alone and get raped. They set a trash can on fire to distract.. Their ass is mine, or ours. Legal Definitions gave me the right to prevent a felony. Desparity gave me rights as well.

There is more to responsible firearm ownership than firearms.

Preacherman
December 15, 2005, 06:12 PM
V4Vendetta, please check your PM's.

spacemanspiff
December 15, 2005, 06:17 PM
Then I could post a sign on the door saying "This store is protected from thieves & killers by 3 Colt 1911 .45 caliber handguns. You feeling lucky?"
yeah, those pesky laws prohibiting the posting of signs unless you're 21 or older are a royal pain!

SomeKid
December 15, 2005, 06:18 PM
IN TN someone under 21 can carry a sidearm on private property if they wish. Being family owned, you may consider that.

Manedwolf
December 15, 2005, 06:28 PM
Alright, I won't post the sign. It's not a Katrina victim. You can't eat a noise filter. Any of you got any tips for dealing with shoplifters?

Yes. Invest in timelapse recorders and cameras. Turn it over to the police, make it their job to find the punk. If you're selling really valuable merchandise, like jewelry, invest in a remotely lockeable door and silent alarm, they can bang their head on it till the cops pull up.

Don't be irresponsible with firearms, it gives the powers that be excuses to take them away from the rest of us.

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the advice folks. I'll discuss this with my parents.

Mannlicher
December 15, 2005, 06:33 PM
Its a thought process like this, that is precisely the reason there is an age limit on gun purchases and ownership.

308win
December 15, 2005, 06:39 PM
You caught a shoplifter and let him go. Why? To my way of thinking he should have been turned over to police along with his friends. They could sort out and charge. The way you slow the problem down is have them arrested. Word will get out now. Hey! if were caught he will let us go and no police Good luck
+1, the worthless little bastards will just steal from someone else. Charge 'em, prosecute 'em, and if the happen to have a known mom and/or dad then drag their ragged a**es into it also on a charge of failing to properly supervise junior or whatever works in NC.

V4Vendetta
December 15, 2005, 06:43 PM
Yes. Invest in timelapse recorders and cameras. Turn it over to the police, make it their job to find the punk. If you're selling really valuable merchandise, like jewelry, invest in a remotely lockeable door and silent alarm, they can bang their head on it till the cops pull up.

Don't be irresponsible with firearms, it gives the powers that be excuses to take them away from the rest of us.


I've noticed that a lot of you folks talk about the goverment regulating what you can own. THAT'S JUST WHAT THE SECOND AMMENDMENT WAS MADE FOR!!!!! THEY TELL YOU YOU CAN'T OWN A GUN, FIGHT!!!

Just my .02.

Correia
December 15, 2005, 07:10 PM
Moderator time. Enough cracks about his age folks. I've heard far stupider things from some of you old enough to be his grandfather.

Tomcat1066
December 15, 2005, 07:15 PM
However, until the Supreme Court overturns all gun control laws, we still have to follow them or end up in prison.

Discretion is the better part of valor here. Pick your battles.

Tom

mbs357
December 15, 2005, 07:19 PM
I believe there is a way to legally carry in NC by getting a few out of state permits to carry and a pistol from someone over 21.

DevLcL
December 15, 2005, 07:28 PM
I wasn't going to shoot him. I was bluffing. I figure the sign would scare off 2 bit shoplifters. Armed bandits, I would have shot.

NEVER EVER bluff when it comes to firearms. NEVER aim a loaded gun at anything you dont intend to destroy. NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER point an unloaded gun at someone in a bluff. The purpose of a self defense gun is to stop a serious threat. If there is no such threat, the firearm stays behind the counter/in the holster etc. If this thief did have a gun you don't just pull yours out and put it to the back of his head like some cheesy movie. You gotta be ready to fire your weapon if you draw, no stand-offs or dramatic dialouge, just lead, going really fast. Sounds to me like your too immature to own a gun.

Sorry mods for such a direct negative remark. Also, this isn't an age related comment either... I'm only 19...

-Dev

Shipwreck
December 15, 2005, 08:39 PM
U will always have shoplifters. Best thing U can do is if you see someone you suspect, stick to them like glue and keep trying to "help" them.

And, U will always have idiots who do it no matter how many cameras. I have had idiots see the little camera speed dome watching them - they waived at several, and then stole. I've even caught the same person 2 and 3 times before, despite them knowing we had a ton of cameras sharp enough to read a price tag

Standing Wolf
December 15, 2005, 09:06 PM
I figure the sign would scare off 2 bit shoplifters.

I have a hunch it will amount to an incentive for the thrill-seeking shop lifters, especially the young, inexperienced kind.

I concur that shop lifters should always be stopped and turned over to the police. Embarrassment doesn't stop them. Jail often doesn't stop them, either, but does stop some of them.

Every employee should be armed in case confronting a shop lifter turns into an armed confrontation.

Average Joe
December 15, 2005, 09:08 PM
I feel your frustration, but shoplifting is a petty offense, first time offenders would only get a slap on the wrist. Just remember, a gun is a last resort to save a life.

XLMiguel
December 15, 2005, 09:23 PM
Hmmm - +1 on what sm said.

+1 on what Michalr T said. Jack 'em up proper, protect your business. Assuming you have reason enough to call the cops, you likely have a low risk of getting sued for false arrest. Even if they aren't charged, word gets around.

Move your business to Wyoming? Because they have liberal gun laws? There's a marketing strategy for ya?:confused:

+1 on what DevLcL bluffing can:
- get you killed
- get your donkey kicked
- get you sued
- cause you to lose any hope of owning firearms
- get you branded as a female kittycat
Never, ever, make a threat you aren't prepared to back up.

While I thoroughly understand your desire to protect your parents and your livelihood, you need to do some real studying of NC firearm laws (you may well be able to be armed in your place of business -), what consititutes legitimate use of lethal force, and regardlesss of your age, GROW UP!

Dionysusigma
December 15, 2005, 09:23 PM
Double post. :uhoh:

Dionysusigma
December 15, 2005, 09:24 PM
I agree that the handgun age should be the same as rifles, but maybe a sign stating "By Appointment Only" would be more effective than the "We have three .45s..." It'll certainly keep undesireables out. :p

Question though. How is protecting a business from theft any different from protecting a residence from theft?

GRB
December 15, 2005, 09:48 PM
Just had a shoplifter in my store.

This is a prime example of why we need the handgun age limit lowered to 18. I was helping my dad cut some wire for a customer when my mom called out for my dad. He could tell by her voice that something wasn't right. He ran out to her & caught a 20 something kid stealing a $8.00 noise filter. He said he was trying to see if it would work on his truck. Yeah right. And I'm the guy who invented Pepsi. We got the filter back my dad told him not to come in our store again. He had 2 friends inside that I was watching meanwhile in case they were in on it. They said they didn't know anything, so we let them go. Ever since we opened this store I've been training & practicing for these situations. My mom knew what to do because I told her what area to watch for shoplifters. To you all out there, KEEP A SHARP EYE!You make a pretty good argument for the side that wants to keep firearms out of the hands of 18 year olds. There was no need for you to yuse a firearm in this situation. Of course having one ready would be nice, but you could have had a shotgun or rifle at the ready in the store. If you think you needed one (any firearm):rolleyes: for the situation as you described it, PLEASEEEEEEE take a use of force course.

oh blanky
December 15, 2005, 09:53 PM
I didn't invent Pepsi. That was sarcasam.

You invented sarcasm?


Sorry.

Dionysusigma
December 15, 2005, 10:04 PM
:D








For all those who whine about how he's too young, read sm's post.
Didn't have CCW permits. I damn sure had a loaded Model 10 in my workbench at age 13, the pump shotgun behind the doors I had trained with as well...it was kid sized for a reason.
It ain't the years... it's the mileage. I can name a dozen guys over 40 I wouldn't trust with a cigarette lighter.

GoBrush
December 15, 2005, 11:22 PM
V4V:

I am sure you are a great guy working with your folks in your family business and all and this is not meant to offend but in my opinion 18yr olds are not mature enough to carry a CCW (hell alot of 21-99 are not qualified or ready physically, emotionally, and spiritually to carry a CCW). Stand back from the emotion of the moment and think about pulling the trigger to end someones life. Before ever actually gripping a gun in self defense you need to first think about 1. legal issues (if you are justified Criminal and Civil) , 2. Whether you are actually prepared to take another life. If your dad feels as strongly as you do have him teach you and prepare you for the day you qualify with your states laws get some professional training, and get a CCW.

You have to check your local laws but most places you dont even need a CCW if it is your own business.

Oh and next time instead of just asking the poor little bad guy not to come back CALL THE POLICE;)

Lupinus
December 15, 2005, 11:46 PM
If your parents own the store odds are you can carry if they give consent, check with NC law to check but far as I know you should be able to.

That said for the gun an bluffing. You NEVER bluff with a gun, you point a gun at someone who you don't have a reasonable expectation to be a threat you could be getting charged with brandishing and probably a host of other violations depending how anal the prosecutor is. A guy in broad day light whom you confront about shoplifting doesn't have the reasonable expectation of a threat unlike a gun rummaging through your stuff at three in the morning waking you out of a dead sleep. Now having a gun on you is fine and a damn good idea. But bluffing with a gun is always a serious no no. When you point a gun at someone it should be when they are a threat and you need to protect yourself. Even lifting your shirt to point out the fact you are armed is a bad idea. You don't have to shoot someone 100% of the time you point a gun at them, but you really need to reserve pulling a gun for serious threats, not just confronting a little punk who shoplifted an eight dollar whetchamacalit.

Get cameras, post a sign that the store is under 24 hour surveillance, and as far as a protected by firearms sign I would advise against it for two reasons. Reason one being it is bad for business, unless you own a gun shop where presumably everyone in your customer pool isn't bothered by guns even if you drive one customer a week away that one customer may have been coming in to dump a few hundred bucks into your register. Second reason it removes your advantage of surprise the same way open carry does as opposed to open carry. The less thieves know to prepare themselves for before robbing you the better for you. They read that they might just go get a gun and come back and rob you, not just shoplift.

Phyphor
December 16, 2005, 03:35 AM
Then I could post a sign on the door saying "This store is protected from thieves & killers by 3 Colt 1911 .45 caliber handguns. You feeling lucky?"

You do that, you might as well add "...be sure to bring shotguns and shoot up the place upon entry. "

Basically, you don't want to announce that you're armed to the BGs, especially if they're just shoplifters.

Anyone more serious than a shoplifter should find out that you're armed only when you blow them away.

Black Majik
December 16, 2005, 03:40 AM
This is a prime example of why we need the handgun age limit lowered to 18...... He ran out to her & caught a 20 something kid stealing a $8.00 noise filter.

If the handgun age was lowered to 18, that means that 20 year old would be packing also. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

one45auto
December 16, 2005, 03:59 AM
You don't need a handgun, you need a nightstick. If they resist detention or turn violent, just give em' the old wooden shampoo. Non-lethal, but persuasive. ;)

thatguy
December 16, 2005, 08:34 AM
You want to shoot petty criminals but legally you can't. Maybe morally you can't, too, but that issue is debatable as far as I'm concerned.

I recall back around 1971 when I was working the graveyard shift in a 7-11 store while going to school. About 3am some jerk came in and grabbed a big armload of beer. I tried to stop him because beer sales stopped at 2am by law but he just brushed past me and out the door. So I followed.

Outside I saw a sedan waiting for him with the engine running and the rear door standing open. This was a planned heist. The shoplifter had three accomplices in the car. Seeing it was now four to one I pulled my 1911 Colt out from under my shirt in case any were armed or if they all tried to jump me.

Good reason holds that you just let these guys walk rather than confront them but I was never blessed with good reason when it comes to criminals. I hate crooks. I have absolutely no use for thieves and feel they should be killed on sight. Just as the moron with the beer starts to get into the car I crank off a round into the air.

It's amazing how loud a .45ACP sounds at 3am.

No doubt firing even a warning shot was illegal and some would say foolish but like I said earlier I have a bad habit of going after criminals when the law and common sense say it's not the best idea. This wasn't the only time I went after criminals contrary to good thinking but those are other stories.

At the shot the driver floored the gas pedal and the car took off, spinning its rear tires in the loose gravel. The thief, who was half in the car, was spun to the ground spilling most of the stolen beer. I only wish the car had run him over. He jumped up and ran after the departing car faster than I have ever seen anyone run. I think he managed to hold onto one of the five six-packs he had stolen. I picked up the rest and returned the bottles to the shelf.

The guy ran down a gravel road chasing his brave buddies who obviously were very concerned about his well-being as they abandoned him like the craven cowards they were. He was barefoot, by the way, and I still chuckle at the tought of how badly he must have torn up his feet running for his life.

I enjoy this thought almost as much as I would have enjoyed putting a bullet into the bastard's back.

m39fan
December 16, 2005, 09:06 AM
I think you'd better forget about the sign and better yet, both. It doesn't sound like you are ready for a handgun yet. Some maturing and training seem to be needed. If you do confront a shoplifter (shoplifting is normally a MISDEMEANOR) with a drawn pistol and he turns out to be unarmed, you WILL go to jail and have your carry privilages revoked. Even just flashing it (brandishing) will ensure you lose your permit and likely will face charges. IF he IS armed you might find yourself (or mom or dad) dead over a $9.00 item.

As to the sign, if you were to ever NEED to use a gun in self-defense, the sign will ensure that you WILL end up in court presented as a deranged killer just waiting to drop a hammer on someone.

Just my .02 from a LEO viewpoint.

Manedwolf
December 16, 2005, 09:54 AM
NEVER EVER bluff when it comes to firearms. NEVER aim a loaded gun at anything you dont intend to destroy. NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER point an unloaded gun at someone in a bluff. The purpose of a self defense gun is to stop a serious threat. If there is no such threat, the firearm stays behind the counter/in the holster etc. If this thief did have a gun you don't just pull yours out and put it to the back of his head like some cheesy movie. You gotta be ready to fire your weapon if you draw, no stand-offs or dramatic dialouge, just lead, going really fast. Sounds to me like your too immature to own a gun.

Sorry mods for such a direct negative remark. Also, this isn't an age related comment either... I'm only 19...

-Dev

+1

V4Vendetta
December 16, 2005, 10:58 AM
I've heard a lot of mention of LEO's, so I'm going to ask. What are they? Also, I've decided not to post the sign. I've calmed down since yesterday. I was mad yesterday, so I ranted a little bit. I thank all of you for your thoughts even though some were more nicer than others. I was mad yesterday because I get up at 8:00am every day of the week to get to my store & have it open by 9:00am. I do not get a day off except when the store is closed for the holidays, so I'm at the store 360. I don't get paid. What we make goes back into the shop for supplies & such. And now some young punk wants to rob me!!! I'm sure you understand my frustration. Thanks for allowing me to rant.:)

Lupinus
December 16, 2005, 11:03 AM
Part of being responsible enough to carry a gun is being able to keep your cool and not being ready to pull a gun and blow someone head off over a nine dollar item unless you confront him and he attacks you. So is knowing you don't bluff with the weapon even if you're mad. Anger is fine, it is a perfectly natural human emotion. But keeping it in check is the key...even if you are tempted to do some of the things you really can't. Guns are for saving your life, not displaying your anger.

LEO refers to the cops, the guys in blue, law enforcment officers, gestapo....etc.

Cousin Mike
December 16, 2005, 11:51 AM
I worked at a bookstore once, and you'd be surprised how many people try to steal from bookstores. On more than one occasion I had to deal with a shoplifter, and I never had to pull a gun - even in some pretty vicious fights. Only once did I go for my gun, and did not have to pull it. 2 guys came in and stole from us, and one got away and ran up the street. I was threatened by the other shoplifter who made it to his car - when myself and a co-worker followed him, he threatened to get a gun from his car and shoot both of us if we didnt back off. When he said that, myself and my security guard (both of us were armed) got our hands on our weapons, but we did not deploy them or point them. The guy got the point, and left. We called the police, and they were caught an hour later trying to steal from the same chain of bookstores on the other side of town.

Now let me be honest. I wanted to empty a whole magazine on him for threatening me like that. The anger was incredible, and some might even say I was justified because of the threat of being shot. Very serious words to me, I've lost 3 cousins and lots of friends to shootings. However, I did not see a gun. Had I shot that man, or even pointed my gun at him, and he ended up NOT having a gun, I'd be the one in prison today instead of this guy. Had he actually went for a gun, different story. When I rode with the police to identify them at the other store location, one of them told me he had just gotten out of prison for homicide a year earlier, but they found NO gun in the car. He was bluffing. However, we did the right thing, and the right people went to jail. I was 21 at the time.

Your job as a clerk in the family store is not to be a hero or anything like that, it's to put money in the register and make sure everyone goes home alive at the end of the day. Everyone here has already said it, but I will repeat it. Pointing a gun at someone is only for situations where you think you might be seriously hurt, or killed - if you let an argument over shoplifting or a fight in the store escalate into a shooting, it might very well be you who spends the rest of his life in prison. I would recommend the firearms courses everyone here has already recommended, but I would also like to recommend an unarmed SD course as well. Sounds like you could use the confidence to act rationally and appropriately in a situation where deadly force is not required, and I think a hand to hand defense course would help that as well. You don't want to go to jail, or have to live with killing someone over a paper funnel or whatever it was :D

thumbody
December 16, 2005, 12:38 PM
To those insulting V4, go back and read his first post. He never said he would have pulled a gun if he had 1. He said there were 3 young men in the store together and 1 of them had to be confronted.
If I had to confront someone who had 2 backups with them I would also want to have something to save my skin if things went bad.
To those commenting on his age if I were in trouble I would want my 15 yr old to be able to defend me and herself.
There are many stories of young children saving a family members life by using a gun. And a few sad tales of young adults who were killed along with younger siblings because the guns (that they knew how to use) were locked up(to conform with state law).
Why are so many members of this board so age discriminating? We have some young members on here who come across as much more mature and responsible than some members that claim to be much older.

V4Vendetta
December 16, 2005, 12:49 PM
Thumbody, THANK YOU!!

cosine
December 16, 2005, 01:00 PM
edited: deleted.

mbs357
December 16, 2005, 01:22 PM
He never said he would have pulled a gun if he had 1.
I noticed that too, I was wondering why everyone was going on about being bluffing with guns, etc.
:uhoh:

cosine
December 16, 2005, 01:28 PM
I noticed that too, I was wondering why everyone was going on about being bluffing with guns, etc.
:uhoh:

Good point. I think it's because everyone, (me included) assumed that that was what he wanted a gun for. :o

Cousin Mike
December 16, 2005, 01:46 PM
I wasn't going to shoot him. I was bluffing. I figure the sign would scare off 2 bit shoplifters. Armed bandits, I would have shot.

I think this is why...

I don't think anyone is being unjustly hard on anyone, minus the age-based attacks. This is a very serious subject, and I think everyone cares about the possible outcomes, that's all.

V4Vendetta
December 16, 2005, 02:14 PM
"This is a very serious subject, and I think everyone cares about the possible outcomes."

True.

mbs357
December 16, 2005, 02:42 PM
I think this is why...

I don't think anyone is being unjustly hard on anyone, minus the age-based attacks. This is a very serious subject, and I think everyone cares about the possible outcomes, that's all.
I must have missed that part.
Bluffing is bad. =X

thumbody
December 16, 2005, 03:34 PM
The only place I notice anything about bluffing was in regards to the sign. I also believe that sign is a bad idea(as bluffing with a gun would be also). You want the element of surprise on your side. The sign could also be used as evidence that you were trigger happy and just waiting for a chance to shoot someone.
When I was 18 I worked the 3 pm-11 shift at a gas station on the north end of Indianapolis,I usually had my shotgun stashed where I could get to it fast if I needed to. I don't know what the legalities were but even then I knew I was responsible for my own safety.
The station was only about 1/4-1/2 mile from the freeway and looked to be an easy target. I never needed it but there were a few times I moseyed towards it while my coworker waited on some funny acting customers.

brassdog
December 16, 2005, 06:19 PM
V4Vendetta,

Having workrd in small Mom&Pop stores in my distant past, I know how you feel. The best thing you can do and should do is to get the local police and your county deputies involved. The state of NC doesn't take kindly to lawbreakers of any kind. Which county do you live in? If your Dad owns the property outright then he can carry a concealed weapon on his property without a CCW. Now, just cause he can do it doesn't always mean the cops are going to understand that. That's why you need to get them involved. So you both can get familar with each other on sight and so they can point out your store's weak spots. Once addressed, you and your Dad should be hardening then and making several spots for cover. Also, you being under 21. I wouldn't recommend that you even think about carrying a handgun. Just keep it in a quick access lockbox someplace where your family knows where it is. For example, one place I worked at in Charlotte. The owners, 2 brothers, kept a loaded Taurus .40 in the beer cooler under the counter and pair of shotguns in the meatlocker.

V4Vendetta
December 16, 2005, 07:45 PM
Me & my dad don't own the land or building. We rent them from a guy that is like a father to my dad. They've known each other for at least 17 years. A couple of hours after my dad caught the thief, my dad talked to the guy we rent from about it. He said that when he had a shoplifter, even if it was a .25 item, he called the cops. My dad didn't listen to me when I told him that you can't hold somebody until the cops arrived under NC law. He didn't believe me. Well earlier today a cop came in who buys some radio parts from us. He told my dad the exact same thing. He said the best thing to do is get the plate # off their vehicle. We live in Stokes county but our store is in Forsyth county.

ccw007
December 18, 2005, 09:13 AM
My dad didn't listen to me when I told him that you can't hold somebody until the cops arrived under NC law. He didn't believe me. Well earlier today a cop came in who buys some radio parts from us. He told my dad the exact same thing. He said the best thing to do is get the plate # off their vehicle. We live in Stokes county but our store is in Forsyth county.
Well your dad and the cop are both right unless the law has changed since I had to last do it.
You can detain someone legally in NC, but it is very very tricky and can get you into trouble if you do something wrong. Department Stores do it all of the time.

It is best to get the plate number in my opinion because is a 9.00 item worth the legal hassle you may face for holding the person? Is a 9.00 item worth your life because they could be armed?

On a side note. I am posting this because of another thread you started and a few comments you have said in both places. Now I have not read this whole thread, but you live very close to me. Please learn the laws of this state on when you can and cannot use a firearm. To me you come across as a very hot tempered, to hell with the laws, type person, but you cannot really tell on these boards. I truly hope it is just because you are still young. However, if you act as you have posted in some of these threads I will be reading about you in the local paper. Take it for what it is worth my friend.

GoBrush
December 18, 2005, 12:37 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=171602

Visit this thread it should give you other things to think about Like I said in my original post you need to be prepared physically, mentaly to make a decision like this.

GoBrush
December 18, 2005, 12:42 PM
"This is a very serious subject, and I think everyone cares about the possible outcomes."

True.

Looks like you are learning good for you. Keep learning Education is power.

SR_
December 18, 2005, 03:06 PM
Any of you got any tips for dealing with shoplifters?

When you catch one, call the cops. Don't let them go.

zahc
December 18, 2005, 03:44 PM
If the handgun age was lowered to 18, that means that 20 year old would be packing also. Does that sound like a good idea to
you?
:what: Because shoplifters observe weapon laws? omg....I can't escape anti-mentality non-logic even here?


in my opinion 18yr olds are not mature enough to carry a CCW (hell alot of 21-99 are not qualified or ready physically, emotionally, and spiritually to carry a CCW)
As a 20 year old that lives in his own place, is 100% financially independent owns his own business, and cannot posess handguns, I have nothing to say to that that is THR worthy. I don't care about opinions unless their widespread acceptance goes against my ability to defend myself, my property and my loved ones.

Its a thought process like this, that is precisely the reason there is an age limit on gun purchases and ownership.

Petty shoplifting has nothing to do with handguns.


And what exactly would you have done if you had a handgun in this situation?

HAD THE ABILITY TO DEFEND HIS LIFE AND SAFTY HAD HE NEEDED TO, YOU*edited for thr suitability*

1500 posts, and I have never seen a post so full of ANTIS in my life. I don't like to think that these boards are clogged with a high percentage of enthusiasts, hobbyists that want to pursue their hobby unmolested, but that don't actually believe in freedom and equality and American principles; threads like this leave me no choice.

I'm skeptical of the maturity and and ability of the topic starter, based on his post, but what has really amazed me is how many people he has inspired to implicity admit that they support freedom and the right to life (for themselves).

TxCajun
December 18, 2005, 04:19 PM
Then I could post a sign on the door saying "This store is protected from thieves & killers by 3 Colt 1911 .45 caliber handguns. You feeling lucky?"
Bad idea. IMO, an invitation for trouble. If some thugs don't come in, pull weapons and steal your guns, someone might break in after hours looking for them.


Like I said:
Then the bad guys will come in and say "We have three 12 gauge shotguns, do YOU feel lucky?"


That is the argument of an ANTI, used to argue against any civilian firearm ownership. It's the same old song. If civilians arm, the bad guys will just bring bigger guns. It's not only deeply illogical, it's been proven TOTALLY FALSE in state after state after state after state, including the one I'm in
:rolleyes: Wrong! That's NOT the argument of the antis. Opposing such a sign is the argument of someone using their brain. It would be FAR smarter, to have the guns, but not the sign. Don't advertise. Why in the world would you want to tip your hand and give the advantage to the criminals? That's just dumb.

This is like the bumper stickers that say "Insured by Smith & Wesson". Yea, they seem cool and macho. What they do is make your car a target for being broken into and vandalized. It's ALL about stealth. :cool:

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