Police officer killed with elephant gun.


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jsalcedo
December 15, 2005, 09:07 PM
Laval cop was killed with rifle powerful enough to stop an elephant
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Laval police officer Maxim Rheault lights a candle at a makeshift shrine in front of the building where Const. Valerie Gignac was shot and killed. (CP
Published: Thursday, December 15, 2005


LAVAL, Que. (CP) - A female police officer who was gunned down with a weapon powerful enough to kill an elephant had already met her alleged killer, whom she had arrested for harassing another policewoman.

Francois Pepin was charged Thursday with the first-degree murder of Const. Valerie Gignac and possessing a firearm. Pepin was also charged with breaking a 1999 probation condition by having a gun outside hunting season. He did not enter a plea and remained in custody. His next court appearance is Feb. 15 and his lawyer Robert La Haye said Pepin will likely be examined by mental health experts.

Laval police, already reeling from the death of their colleague while answering what appeared to be a routine noise complaint on Wednesday, were blunt in their assessment that the justice system let them down.

"How come if you have a ban, you're not allowed to possess a firearm for 10 years, how come you can allow it for the hunting season?" asked Denis Cote, president of the Quebec municipal police federation.

"If you're a threat for everybody, make sure you're a threat for all 12 months in a year."

Gilles Lemieux, president of Laval police union, said the system usually works, but not this time.

"For me, it's hard to believe and understand."

A civic funeral will be held Tuesday 25-year-old Gignac, a Quebec City native who had been a cop for almost four years.

Laval police Chief Jean-Pierre Gariepy said the weapon that killed Gignac was a .338-calibre rifle, which can drop a target from a kilometre away.

"It's a hunting gun," Gignac said. "It's used in the jungle for the hunting of elephants. It's a very powerful arm."

It was not immediately known if the gun was registered. Quebec provincial police are investigating the case.

Gariepy also said Gignac and her partner had met up with the suspect a week ago.

"They knew that guy because they arrested him," he said.

"He was harassing a female police officer. There was a complaint and an investigation and we did arrest him a week before. He was brought to court and he was set free with some conditions by the judge."

Gariepy said Pepin had been fixated on the other woman officer.

"He was in love with her and he was always trying to get in touch with her. We couldn't let him act like this without pressing charges against him."

Lemieux said Pepin was arrested Friday for that incident in the parking lot of a community police station as he swept snow from a patrol car. Gignac worked at a different station than the harassed officer.

Gignac was shot in the back just above her left hip, just below her bullet-proof vest, on Wednesday as she spun away from a door where she and her partner responded to a 911 call. Two high-powered slugs ripped through the closed wooden door and delivered the fatal wound.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=750a6697-7724-46eb-a496-8fce5f6d3d07&k=46971

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MD_Willington
December 15, 2005, 09:27 PM
Sounds close to what happened in Alberta, a guy laid waste to a few police officers in the same manner back in March

4 RCMP officers killed on Alberta farm
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/03/rcmpalert050303.html

Pepin: Man accused of shooting officer was under firearms ban...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/12/15/officer-shot.html


Criminals DO NOT obey laws...but you can't seem to drill that into the thick skull of the politicians any where :rolleyes:

GRB
December 15, 2005, 09:30 PM
MY prayers for the fallen officer, her family and loved ones.

It does seem kind of ridiculous that if you are going to restrict someone from possessing a firearm due to some sort of a conviction for a crime, that you would let the same person possess firearms during the hunting season. I kind of like the idea though of restricting someone for a limited number of years as opposed to restricint them from forever possessing firearms - that is of course so long as the crime was not one of violence in which a firearm was utilized.

As to a .338, are they really used to hunt elephants? I would have thought Moose, bear, elk and so on.

MD_Willington
December 15, 2005, 09:45 PM
Most people I know using .338 back up in BC hunt the exact animals you just described, Swamp Donkey (Moose), Elk etc...

Elephants...uh :uhoh: okay... Can't say I've seen any of those outside a game farm or zoo in Canada...



MD

The Real Hawkeye
December 15, 2005, 09:45 PM
Sure, it is technically powerful enough to kill an elephant, but so is a .357 Magnum revolver, in the right hands. It is not an "elephant rifle" though. That's just hype for the story.

michakav
December 15, 2005, 09:48 PM
As to a .338, are they really used to hunt elephants? I would have thought Moose, bear, elk and so on. Sympathies to the family. A .338 would be considered way under gunned for elephant.

The Real Hawkeye
December 15, 2005, 09:51 PM
Sympathies to the family. A .338 would be considered way under gunned for elephant.Likewise. As for the .338, with heavy solids you could penetrate the skull, and you wouldn't need to do it through the eye like you would with anything less powerful, but generally an "elephant gun" starts at .375 H&H, and that's considered entry level for elephant. A .338 Win Mag is considered ideal for the largest North American game, such as moose, elk and grizzly.

GRB
December 15, 2005, 09:54 PM
Not having ever hunted elephant myself, I thought it was NOT too much gun but was uncertain. I figured it was so much bull for the press and the politicos to use as more antigun propaganda. It is a sad commentary that instead of just giving the straight story when something like this happens, and instead of dedicating more space about the fallen officer, the politicians and the press imediately try to chop away at gun ownership rights (even in Canada). It is sad because it would not matter if the officer was killed with an elephant gun, a BB gun, or a rubber band gun - the fact is she was killed by a criminal. The focus should now not be on his choice of weapon but on the government's choice of how it deals with such dirt - the criminals.

Double Naught Spy
December 15, 2005, 10:24 PM
http://www.chifutisafaris.com/client-info.htm

These folks consider the .375 the minimum caliber for the thick skinned dangerous game animals such as Elephant, Cape Buffalo and Hippo. Of course, they don't live in Canada. The live in Texas.

shermacman
December 15, 2005, 10:33 PM
Glenn Bartley gets the essence of the story: nice, neat, nailed.

mete
December 15, 2005, 10:42 PM
Sad to lose an officer . They'' blame it on the evil GUN when it's the stupid officials who let him have a gun despite a ban and a history of harassing cops !

Standing Wolf
December 15, 2005, 11:20 PM
He was brought to court and he was set free with some conditions by the judge.

The crux of the matter wasn't the gun, but the judge.

Blaming judges for their mistakes doesn't make headlines that help the leftist extremist cause in Canada.

Lupinus
December 16, 2005, 12:01 AM
Feel bad for his family. But a better title for the article would have been "Officer killed by criminal. Last I checked guns aren't capable of choosing their own target and pulling their own trigger.

jsalcedo
December 16, 2005, 12:32 AM
We have no way of knowing, given the usual inaccuracies of the news reports...

My point of posting the article was the ridiculous notion that it really mattered whether the officer was killed with .577 tyrannosaur or a .22 short.

I'm not sure whether it's real or imagined but I sense an additional spin coming out of canadian liberal media.

M-Rex
December 16, 2005, 12:34 AM
My point of posting the article was the ridiculous notion that it really mattered whether the officer was killed with .577 tyrannosaur or a .22 short.

I'm not sure whether it's real or imagined but I sense an additional spin coming out of canadian liberal media.

My brother, I could not agree more.

How much you want to bet that the Canadian PTB make a play to ban "large caliber" rifles that have "no sporting purpose in North America"?

Jim March
December 16, 2005, 12:36 AM
Just curious, is it possible this was a 338 *Lapua*?

*That* really is a viable Elephant gun, right?

jsalcedo
December 16, 2005, 12:39 AM
How much you want to bet that the Canadian PTB make a play to ban "large caliber" rifles that have "no sporting purpose in North America"?


Exactly.

Politicians and media rolling in the blood of innocents always makes me physically ill.

horge
December 16, 2005, 03:26 AM
Just curious, is it possible this was a 338 *Lapua*?

*That* really is a viable Elephant gun, right?

That was actually my impression.

Rem700SD
December 16, 2005, 03:33 AM
Professional ivory hunters have been known to take elephants with a 30-06, close to a half-century ago. My question is, if the BG in this scenario was infatuated w/ the cop, why was there no restraining order?!!

ghost squire
December 16, 2005, 03:34 AM
The .338 Lapua is not an elephant gun.

Cosmoline
December 16, 2005, 04:02 AM
"It's a hunting gun," Gignac said. "It's used in the jungle for the hunting of elephants."

I-D-I-O-T

Harry Tuttle
December 16, 2005, 04:05 AM
22lr is an elephant gun

Janitor
December 16, 2005, 07:29 AM
An aside:
"It's a hunting gun," Gignac said. "It's used in the jungle for the hunting of elephants. It's a very powerful arm."
Hmmm. Is this an oversight in editing, or simply story telling that doesn't take time and space into consideration?
-

What virtually everyone's already said - Whether the gun could be used for elephant doesn't mean anything. Clearly it was enough gun for a human being. One that probably didn't deserve to die. But what does the liberal press do? Blame the hardware.

They (the press &/or the libs) have no actual interest in this RCMP officer that just gave her life to her community. The only thing that troubles them is the spin control needed to make sure nobody knows that the current gun control laws are meaningless. The public can't be allowed to see that - certainly not while the libs are trying to impliment even further and more draconian measures against law abiding citizens.

Funny thing ... I rant about the libs only focusing on the hardware while I only focus on the libs. What an A$$. :(

My heart truely goes out to officer Gignac's family. This is a horrible, horrible thing and should never have happened.
-

thatguy
December 16, 2005, 08:14 AM
Typical anti-gun emphasis on the gun. Note how its power and range (although exaggerated) are emphasized rather than focusing on the criminal.

As for the .338 (Winchester or otherwise) on elephant, most countries that used to allow elephant hunting required a .40 or above. Over the centuries many fools shot elephants with all sorts of small caliber rifles and sometimes they even managed to inflict fatal wounds but the key word here is fool.

The Real Hawkeye
December 16, 2005, 09:45 AM
Typical anti-gun emphasis on the gun. Note how its power and range (although exaggerated) are emphasized rather than focusing on the criminal.

As for the .338 (Winchester or otherwise) on elephant, most countries that used to allow elephant hunting required a .40 or above. Over the centuries many fools shot elephants with all sorts of small caliber rifles and sometimes they even managed to inflict fatal wounds but the key word here is fool.Although the term "elephant gun" (a specialized rifle for hunting elephants) is generally agreed these days to start with .416 Rigby and above, this does not mean that everyone who ever hunted with any lessor calibers were necessarily "fools." Many hunters, who want one rifle to cover all his African big and medium game hunting, have chosen the .375 H&H, which is considered adequate for elephant, so long as you have a P.H. to back you up with a charge stopping gun. Some professional ivory hunters of the past, though, did use much smaller calibers. In fact, a 7mm Mauser was a commonly used rifle for ivory hunting, and Smith & Wesson hired a professional hunter to kill an elephant with their then new .357 Magnum revolver. One shot through the eye did the trick. Naturally, it had to be through the eye, because a .357 Magnum could not hope to penetrate the skull of an elephant, except through the eye socket. It needs to be said, however, that shooting an elephant with anything short of a .375 H&H (or its rough equivalent) is more considered a stunt shot these days than something recommended for the average elephant hunter. A reliable charge stopping "elephant gun" probably ought to start in the realm of the .450 Nitro Express.

jobu07
December 16, 2005, 10:05 AM
Laval police Chief Jean-Pierre Gariepy said the weapon that killed Gignac was a .338-calibre rifle, which can drop a target from a kilometre away.

Hmmm... The metric version of anti .50 cal news coverage?

Henry Bowman
December 16, 2005, 11:18 AM
why was there no restraining order?!!And that would have helped . . . how?


On another note, I have been able to keep my property completely elephant free for years using nothing more than a .22 short. :neener: Now, what round for a Democrat?:uhoh:

boofus
December 16, 2005, 11:30 AM
The murderer was a paroled convict according to some reports. They let a criminal out and he commits a capital crime and it's the fault of the gun, the gun manufacturer and the United States.

Piss on Canada. There is no way that country is the same one that helped storm Normandy Beach in 1944.

rick_reno
December 16, 2005, 11:40 AM
from http://www.kukuzans.co.za/ba_elephant-hunting.htm

hunting tips - the calibre
The minimum is the .375 Magnum which is a legal requirement in many countries. Most hunters prefer something heavier starting from .416 or .458 Magnum upwards with heavier double rifles being the best choice.

Zundfolge
December 16, 2005, 12:36 PM
OMG! The .338 Lapua is now the "weapon of choice of gang bangers!"


Next we'll see them runnin' round the hood with 4 bore double rifles! :rolleyes:

Sulaco
December 16, 2005, 12:51 PM
Would she be any less dead if he had used an axe?

boofus
December 16, 2005, 12:56 PM
She would be less dead if the criminal stayed behind bars where he belonged instead of being 'rehabilitated' and then let loose.

Mr_Moore
December 16, 2005, 01:45 PM
While I was looking up .338 rifles...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1525557/posts

This link reports on 3 terrorists taken out by 3 head shots from .338 rifles which can shoot up to "1000" yards. They state that the .338 is the most powerful rifle in use by the army.

mete
December 16, 2005, 02:18 PM
The Brits use the 338 Lapua for sniper work. The Montreal incident was most likely a 338 Win.Neither is a proper elephant gun. The perp had been restricted to NO GUNS ,but applied for and was given permission to have a gun during hunting season !!! A dangerous man 11 months of the year but a nice guy 1 month of the year !!!

The Real Hawkeye
December 16, 2005, 02:53 PM
The majority of elephant killed, for quite some time now, have fallen to full auto bursts from AK's, wielded by poachers. They simply perforate one lung, wait for vultures to show them where the dead critter is. Blood loss and aspiration of blood into the un-perforated lung suffice to lay the critter low. Since you are not eating the meat anyway, why worry about the 338 not being "proper"? Do you mean "legal"?No, he means appropriate according to experienced hunters. You see, hunters do not use full auto, and they do not generally shoot from a jeep so as to out run the charging elephant once he is shot with an AK. Pouching is a different story from hunting.

Infidel
December 16, 2005, 03:07 PM
from http://www.kukuzans.co.za/ba_elephant-hunting.htm

hunting tips - the calibre
The minimum is the .375 Magnum which is a legal requirement in many countries. Most hunters prefer something heavier starting from .416 or .458 Magnum upwards with heavier double rifles being the best choice.

If they'd had those laws (or that "wisdom") back in the early 1900s, then there might be more elephants today. W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell killed a whole heckuva lot of them with his favorite cartridge, the 7x57mm Mauser. He didn't have full auto or a Jeep, either.

And Glenn Bartley still got it right.

Lebben-B
December 16, 2005, 04:49 PM
Prayers out to the family of the fallen officer.

I can't comment of the whole "elephant gun" emphasis of the story, since I've never hunted elephant. But I will say that the Brits aren't the only ones using .338 Lap Mag. Some of the "Special" people here and in Afghanistan use them on occasion.

Mike

Rockstar
December 16, 2005, 05:44 PM
Gawd help out silly ninny neighbors to the North. Subjects they were; subjects they'll always be.

MachIVshooter
December 17, 2005, 09:57 PM
Just curious, is it possible this was a 338 *Lapua*?

*That* really is a viable Elephant gun, right?

The .338 Lapua is ballistically identicle to the .338 RUM. While it certainly could be used for elephant, most would opt for something with significantly heavier bullets. ft/lbs of energy are only part of the equation with such large game. The importance of frontal diameter of the bullet is not to be understated. I personally would go with a .416 Rigby or .458 Lott.

On that note, there was a hunter in the first half of the 20th (can't remember his name) who favored the 6.5 Carcano and head shots on pachyderms.:eek:

The part of the story that got me was "powerful enough to stop an elephant". That would have to be a 155mm HE round or so, certainly nothing shoulder fired.

Smythe77
December 17, 2005, 11:48 PM
Of interest he actually had two hunting rifles. No one knows where he obtained them. Previously he was deprived of his six hunting rifles that were sold & money back to him, from a local gun shop.

All of this just around 9+ days after the PM Martin, in looking for votes, has said the Liberals will Ban Handguns, we are soon to have an election, thing is that is just part of what they want & that is to join the UK, Ireland, Ireland, Turkey & so many other counties for it to be BAN GUNS. If long bbl gun people cannot read the writing on the wall then it is a pity they cannot read.

backphil
December 18, 2005, 12:10 AM
. . . They'' blame it on the evil GUN when it's the stupid officials who let him have a gun despite a ban and a history of harassing cops !

mete . . . close, but no cigar. Try again. Go back and read/re-read Glenn Barkley's succinct assesment of the anti-gunowner biased article, then re-think your position.:rolleyes:

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