Organizing Indiana RKBA


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txgho1911
December 16, 2005, 12:25 AM
Found some discussion at PDO (packing.org) a few days ago about groups in Indiana. Seems there is no focus on RKBA issues with any IN clubs or orgs. I am just posting to sound out THR IN members on the subject.
Focus would be tracking and Lobbying efforts with state senators and reps. Secondary mission would include communication to the various state, county, city gun clubs and other groups who would have concerns. ICLA for example would not be among those I would want to include. There are others more broadly grounded in the realities and constitutional law.

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Below posted by minuteman32 PDO
Letter from my (alleged) U.S. Representative!
Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXX:

Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 800, the "Protection of Lawful
Commerce in Arms Act."

H.R. 800 seeks "To prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or
continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of
firearms or ammunition for damages or injunctive or other relief resulting
from the misuse of their products by others." On October 20th, this
legislation passed the House by a vote of 283 to 144 without my support.

I oppose frivolous lawsuits; however, I do not believe that the judicial
branch should be refrained from determining the merits of particular
cases. At a time when more than 30,000 gun deaths occur each year in our
country, I cannot support legislation that deprives gun violence victims
of the right to legal recourse and discourages the adoption of reasonable
safety devices. Additionally, while I believe in the Second Amendment and
feel that the right to bear arms is a fundamental part of American
heritage and culture, I do not believe this right is unqualified.

Statistics indicate that in 2001, 290 Indiana residents died from firearm
homicides, 21 died unintentionally by a firearm, 411 committed suicide
with a firearm and 4 deaths by firearm were ruled undetermined. The
numbers are shocking. Equally devastating is the fact that 59 of these
deaths were children.

Again, thank you for contacting me about this issue. Your interest and
opinion are deeply appreciated and your position highly respected. Best
wishes.

Sincerely,





Julia Carson
Member of Congress
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Bob Crody has run against her for the last 2 or three elections. He just dropped
out due to lack of support funds and the IN republican party. He has run in the past as Libertarian.
This past year my own state rep Lawrence Buell introduced and passed law allowing LEO with the right judge ability to play shrink. (my opinion on Lairds law)
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By minuteman32
.. I would say that we need to organize (ugh, I'm NOT organized)! We could
schedule a meeting locally to see what kind of turn out we'd have. From there,
figure out what the ...say... top 3 most pressing concerns we have (which laws
we want changed, specifically). Have people make lists of who their state &
federal (for continuity) reps/sens, their phone numbers, addresses, emails (my
state sens legislative aide uses HERS, not the sens. to communicate as hers
isn't privey to the press), and schedules as best as can be determined. We
would disseminate a statement to all in attendance @ the meeting stating the
law, and what needs to change. We would then start calling, emailing & visiting
our own rep/sens, as well as others who are interested in the change. The way we
get that info is through networking. That's how I found out about Rep. Ulmer
from northern IN.
.. I guess we could pick a time & place for a meeting and list it here, then
see if anyone responds.
..
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I guess some of the biggest points I would like to see in Indiana at the state level would include deleting the grandfather clause in state pre-emption. Add something to insure firearms owners and those with carry permits are not focused on by LEO groups (bigger cities). Maybe define carry in state law as openly in view or concealed in the licensing section.

Any other Indiana residents thinking of input please chime in and add to this or PM me.

I wish I had a Jim March or Tim Oliver with us in Indy. I would lie to talk Philip Van Cleave into moving here. He would never get suckered into an Indiana move.

If you enjoyed reading about "Organizing Indiana RKBA" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
txgho1911
December 16, 2005, 06:15 PM
I think if we started something soon, we'd be in a better position when the next session starts. We'd be more organized and be able to more articulately and persuasively argue our points. We should try to get a meeting time/place set up for .... say... the middle of January, here in the Indy area, and get the ball rolling. What do you think?


I will review some dates in January that avoid church and other positive obligations. I know my schedule is sunk for some of January. I would look at the last week or the first week of Feb.

RandyB
December 16, 2005, 10:34 PM
I would be interested as a fellow Hoosier in any RKBA group.

IndianaDean
December 16, 2005, 11:29 PM
I'll definitely think about it. My work schedule will preclude it however, I don't have any vacation days to take and it will depend on when it would be scheduled. Sundays through Thursdays would pretty much be out for me.

Politicallysober
December 17, 2005, 01:32 AM
I would be willing to do this. As everyone knows here it will take a well organized group to have an effect and even then it might not achieve anything. Either way it is something that needs to happen, atleast to get the wheels turning in the minds of fellow hoosiers.

Byron Quick
December 17, 2005, 05:31 AM
A suggestion: Establish contacts with existing state groups with proven track records. Find out who their main members are. Then ask for advice.

Puppy
December 17, 2005, 05:47 AM
Section 32 of the Indiana state Constitution sums it up nicely.

"The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State".

El Tejon
December 17, 2005, 08:49 AM
I'm all for grassroots groups. More the merrier! Good luck getting rid of Julia, maybe I should move downtown Indy and run against her. *snicker*:D

There are groups in Indiana fighting for the RKBA. Perhaps you can join us as well at the Indiana State Rifle and Pistol Association.:)

http://www.isrpa.org

Headless Thompson Gunner
December 17, 2005, 11:52 AM
I'm interested.

Can you provide some specifics about what you want to accomplish, how you want to accomplish it, and what we all might be able to do to help?

I think there's a reason there aren't many pro-gun activist groups in IN. Fact is, they aren't needed as much here as they are elsewhere in the country. There aren't a whole lot of gun control laws here. There are even fewer anti-gun politicians, except a few from Gary. And our legislature is pretty ineffective (a good thing, the less laws the better), and hasn't ever had much success at outlawing much of anything.

Anyway, I'm interested, but I'm still little foggy on exactly what you have in mind. But please keep me posted.

dhondo2000
December 17, 2005, 04:23 PM
I'm there, just keep me posted and I will do all that I can to help.
Thank's!!!:)

mr.trooper
December 17, 2005, 07:20 PM
I have a terrible schedule, but i will help if i can.

txgho1911
December 18, 2005, 12:01 AM
I guess the best goal I would like to accomplish would be pressure. Some how be a presence the legislators may all realize as a reality. I met my state rep last year in his office and he explained his focus areas. Lawrence Buell told me his concentration would be around business law reform. Well we received a new anti gun law out of that. I understand a whole lot of the reasoning behind Lairds Law but it was passed in the house very easy. I do not like that.
Another area to gain is refinements in current carry law. Like school function and extending licensed carry to schools for those parents that carry. Pickup the kids sometimes means disarming to get out of your car. Extra handling and leaving the handgun in the car. Also is the grandfather clause for city/county gov regulation of Firearms. Given there are not many City laws to pre-empt it still allows for an irregularity across the state. I would not put it past Bart Peterson to lobby for a special exception for Indpls.
So many states have made corrections to methods and perception as Indiana as almost stood still. Somehow Indpls crime is on the rise. So many reasons to loosen some strings or broaden the reach of LTH.
I would like to see Vermont/Alaska carry in Indiana. I know it may never happen. Paper work and the city/county building should not stand in the way of people who want to take responsibility for them.
Last but not least. Who in Indiana wants better than an f from the brady bunch?

El Tejon
December 18, 2005, 10:20 AM
I want an F minus!:D

Luku
December 20, 2005, 07:55 AM
There is one local group here in SW Indiana, the second amendment patriots.
Here is the web address:

http://community-4.webtv.net/SecondAmendmentPatriots/2ndAmendmentPatriots/

As far as changes to state law I would like to see us have unlicensed open carry (including in the glovebox). I also would not mind seeing us dropping th state background check involving handguns.

ARperson
December 21, 2005, 05:09 PM
My thoughts on the previous posts:

First, I like the idea of having an organization dedicated to preserving our rights and fighting ludicrous, feel-good legislation that infringes on our rights. However, I believe we would be better served to expand an existing organization's focus to include protecting RKBA. The Indiana State Rifle and Pistol Association is a great start. They already promote the shooting sports, education, etc. All they need is a focus on the legislative aspect. The infrastructure is already there. No need to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

Second, I am wary of bringing too much attention to the legal aspects of RKBA simply because we have it so good now. I completely agree with having a lobbying organization to help fight bad legislation (see paragraph above), but I am concerned about bringing up how good we have it. Putting it on the radar screen may actually backfire.

I believe this is very possible on the issue of open vs. concealed carry. As the law stands right now, we simply need a permit to carry; there is no restriction on open or concealed. I strongly doubt any attempt to push for unlicensed open carrly will result in success. Lawmakers are not likely to ease restrictions on carrying. And it could easily result in attempts to restrict our rights.

What I would like to see our efforts focused on is enforcing the "shall issue" aspect of carry permits. I know some areas fall more in line with the "discretionary" characteristics of some states rather than the "shall issue." Ironically, Marion Co. is fairly good. But I know other areas where the Sheriff is not so RKBA-friendly and denies many a qualified applicant because he doesn't personally believe in individual RKBA (or worse, feels that only law enforcement is qualified to have firearms.)

I'm on board with the idea, but I believe we have to be smart about how we proceed.

txgho1911
December 21, 2005, 06:50 PM
Losing ground, you say!
I understand your concerns. This effort will require cooperation from ISRPA and other groups like 2nd Amendment Patriots http://community-4.webtv.net/SecondA...dmentPatriots/
and others that ongoing are low key and off the radar. Indiana RKBA issues in most of IN appear to be off the radar. Individuals representing many who will not participate in this venture or any other regardless of belief. I am not unwilling to do some homework and so far, I am getting lots to do on this idea.
Known supporters in the legislators will have to be approached as allies and opponents will require avoidance. We have much to do in every corner of the state.
To my knowledge to date, I know of no organized and active lobby resistance to the bills introduced annually. So far, they are passively ignored by support in the legislature. I hate the thought of something being passed that negatively affects our individual rights.
As far as the open vs. concealed status in state law today. This is not off the radar. Bart and IPD administration do not support the law. ISP admins in downtown do not support open carry.
I do not want to see Indpls and other cities lobby for changes without a challenge.
Carraway shafted us on the brady check requirements under the carry permit. This one point is not going to be addressed without some kind of pressure in the right places.
I would like many changes. I would like open carry by a licensee recognized clearly in state law. This would encourage some open carry and also protect the individual who accidentally is exposed with his/her carry.
For those areas people find resistance in the application process. This process should allow for a choice of chief LEO or directly to the issuing authority. IN is now recognized in TX. This only after this decision power was removed from the TX DPS "state police". ISP may also not be the best agency in IN to manage this program.

So many issues. The idea of full recognition of individual rights in Vermont or the additional licensing process available in Alaska should be the endgame for these efforts. Not the beginning. Even then we cannot allow vigilance to fail and lose ground in the future after gains are won. Possibly a strike through text of rescinded or changed lines of text in the Indiana law could serve as reminder of history for future lawmakers.

IndianaDean
December 21, 2005, 08:08 PM
By Ms Carson's logic, any of us injured in a traffic accident should be able to sue the company that built the vehicle that injured us.

Jayb
December 22, 2005, 08:01 AM
I think you can carry open in IN. I also think it's not a good idea. Open carry can invite caustic comments, or a 911 call for "a man carrying a gun".

As an NRA instructor, I think that the carry permit process should be tightened up a bit....... by requiring that appicants be proficient/trained in the use of a handgun. I've seen some real 1st class examples of how to carry dangerously. :eek:

I also think that as Hoosiers, we need to get together so we can shoot and discuss things. :)

Jay

Headless Thompson Gunner
December 22, 2005, 09:04 AM
As an NRA instructor, I think that the carry permit process should be tightened up a bit....... by requiring that appicants be proficient/trained in the use of a handgun. I've seen some real 1st class examples of how to carry dangerously.
Yeah, we should be required to beg the indulgence of our government, or a trainer selected by our government, before exercising a fundamental human right.

NRA training is NOT the only way to become proficient with a gun. The fact that a few morons are dangerous without your training doesn't mean that the rest of us are too.

The idea is to create an organization that increases our gun rights, not one that makes us beholden to some new class of superiors (gov bureaucrats, NRA instructors, or whoever). At least, that's what I hope the goal is. :uhoh:

Jayb
December 22, 2005, 11:37 AM
Becoming proficient as a part of CCW would also expand the number of states that have reciprocal egreements with Indiana.

I don't recall saying that ANY way was the only way to become proficient.

The fact that a few morons are dangerous without your training doesn't mean that the rest of us are too. It's not hardly "my" training. I just happen to think it's better than none. Some self trained shooters are excellent in all aspects of their discipline. Some are not.

By the way, it's those few morons, and the results of their actions that make it tougher to "increase our gun rights". How does one increase a "fundamental right" as headless puts it?

Sir headless....... chill out. I'm not sure NRA instructors rate being lumped in with gov't bureaucrats, but if that's your take, you have a right to it.

I did not intend to re-direct this thread....if my post continues to raise issues, please delete it.

Regards, Jay

Headless Thompson Gunner
December 22, 2005, 06:57 PM
Sorry, JayB. I probably misunderstood what you were saying. It sounded like you were suggesting more gun control, not less. I must have been mistaken.

If you want to encourage people to get NRA safety training, I'll help you. If you want to require people to get NRA training, then I'm against it.

Maybe I'm wrong on this one, I dunno. But it seems to me that adding to the requirements for getting a carry permit is counterproductive. Shouldn't we be working to reduce the barriers to legally carrying a handgun?

Jayb
December 22, 2005, 07:38 PM
If one advocates adding requirements to obtain CCW permits just to make the permit more difficult to get, I'm firmly against that. Most of the states that do not have reciprocal agreements for CCW with Indiana, deny those agreements on the basis of training. That's the only point I was aiming for. Sorry if I missed the mark.

I don't want more gun control, but I don't dance at the thought of "bubba" carrying who knows what just because he wants to. Could be I'm asking the impossible.:confused:

sorry about the misunderstanding

Regards, Jay

txgho1911
December 22, 2005, 08:20 PM
I met a man a few days ago in a gun shop who allowed his carry permit to expire. He was at a DNR range with his family. Being there without a valid license, he was ticketed. I do not know details of the ticket. Judge asked if his gun was confiscated and it was not. Judge stated that it should have been. A new license in hand did not negate the ticket and bias was displayed in his ruling.
I agree that individuals need to follow the law in how they own/use the handgun.
I do not agree with the law that barrs or bans the ability for individuals to practice or even acquaint themselves with the handgun they keep at home.
The qualified license that allows for transport and use at a range facility is a limit I find unreasonable.
Speaking to a deputy today on general issues concerning a focus group. He couldn't care less. HR218 passed and he has no care about every one else’s RKBA in any fashion. This was not Marion or donut counties. His word on unlicensed transport was locked in a case out of reach should be no big deal. On the above-described case, it comes down to the judge’s interpretation.
So proficiency it outlawed by state law except for those who get a license. This is too discouraging. There is barley any public facility in Marion County much less Indpls. Would a legislative measure be able to mandate some or any friendly zoning and public use land for a range within 10 miles of the population?
Should state law require a license to participate in a range day trip for folks who do not carry or transport it at any other time?

El Tejon
December 24, 2005, 05:36 PM
I will only support an attempt to extend freedom to my fellow citizens, not perpetrate what I view (opinions are like you know what :D) as a fraud on my neighbors. Training is a fraud. It is a use of the law to feather the nests of "recognized" trainers and to erect fences to prevent people from exercising their RKBA.

I will not consent to attacking the right to bear arms because of someone's feelings. Requiring training for the RKBA is no more valid than requiring a comparative religion class before obtaining your "House of Worship" license.

I put more trust in "Bubba" from the South or any other immigrant to the state to act safely with firearms than I do the police with all their "training" at the ILEA.

Jay, fyi, Texas recognized Indiana licenses on November 2, 2005. Texas requires training, we do not, yet they do recognize us (yeah, I know it took me 4 years but got it done).

Jayb
December 24, 2005, 08:14 PM
Training is a fraud ?????

good grief........ I don't have a polite response to that.

Merry Christmas all

Herself
December 25, 2005, 07:20 PM
Oh, man, El Tejon, you mean I went to TX disarmed week before last and I didn't need to be? Rats! --And hooray for next time! It will be nice to go shooting down there with something I can hit the broad side of a barn with!

If there will be a FTF meeting for IN gun-rights folks, count me in. I'm in Indy. (And I work in the media, but way way behind the scenes).

--Herself

txgho1911
December 25, 2005, 09:08 PM
I could never express this any clearer without boring a person to tears and a beer.

Update: I spoke to a senior member of 2nd Amendment Patriots for 5 min. I will speak again at leanth. I do not see a new effort differing greatly from that groups efforts. Looks like they are on the same page as many of us.

El Tejon
December 26, 2005, 10:23 AM
Jay, perhaps I failed to make myself clear and inadvertently angered you, please allow me to clarify: governmentally-mandated training is a fraud. It is a barrier to entry to one's civil right to carry a weapon and a chokepoint for governmental regulation.

I have attended many gun schools (over 600 hours now) and am among the foremost advocates of personal training at THR and THL before that. However, I refuse to allow the government to control my right with shifting subjective standards, cost barriers, inter alia. Please understand this is only my opinion (like I matter).:D

Her, yes, Texas finally recognized us in November. It only took me since January of 2001 to get this ironed out.:D We have it thanks to our friends in Texas who moved the recognition agreements from their state po-po to the Texas Attorney General.

tx, the more the merrier. We need to learn from our fellows in Virginia and Texas and shake off the inertia that being defensive brings.

The best defense is to attack. When we take an objective, we counterattack. Identify a problem, educate the people, activate the gun owners and light a fire under the General Assembly, repeat as necessary!:)

Jayb
December 26, 2005, 05:13 PM
Well, yeah... I was angry. My background and attitudes did not lend themselves to a response the other day.

I see your point, and you have a valid one. I think I also have a valid point in being concerned about those who would buy a handgun, carry it, and barely know how to load it, much less be termed "safe" with it......... not to mention proficient. I'm not going to divert this thread with this discussion, but I wouldn't mind having it another time/place.

Thanks for whatever your involvement was in the reciprocal agreement with TX. I heard about it very quickly, as I still have family there.

Jay

El Tejon
December 26, 2005, 06:17 PM
*Worried about thread shift? You're talking to the King of thread shift:D*

Jay, looking back I should have been more careful in specifying governmentally mandated training. There have been several articles posted on this topic here and reports from our allies in states like Texas or Minnesota where training is a condition of acquiring the CCW license.

Jayb, of course your concern is valid and should be every rational person's concern. The situation that you describe (persons unable to operate their weapons) is manifested in law enforcement as well as civilian circles as any graduate of firearms training schools such as TR or LFI (LFI-1's video of "Shorty").

The question we have presented is HOW to address your sane and logical concern. I believe there is a better way to obtain what we all desire.

Internal controls are better than external. As you probably have seen in law enforcement (my speculation based on your writing style) if someone, oh, say a criminal defendant, is "ordered" whether drug/alcohol counseling or anger management it is not as effective as counseling that a person wishes to pursue. Same applies to firearms training.

The solution is to change the culture. Make gun safety/firearms training the "cool" or "in" thing to do and the culture will drive more and more to do it. Supply creates its own demand, having the trainers available is part of it as well as writing insightful and entertaining reviews of gun camps(one time at gun camp) such has been done here at THR or the brilliant and sage reviews of KSFreeman at The Firing Line.

Governmentally-mandated firearms training defeats this attempted culture shift in two ways. First, it becomes a burden rather than something fun and educational. Second, it becomes limiting in that, as you as a trainer know, that education never ends; the attitude becomes meeting a requirement and ending the training experience. "Well, got my class, I'm done."

Jay, we need you and your experience in any coming push. Never forget this is just my opinion about this narrow topic and I know what cops say about opinions, especially from my kind.:D We agree on far more than we disagree; many roads to Enlightenment, we just want the General Assembly to chose the right ones!:uhoh: :D

You are quite welcome for any hand I had in the Texas-Indiana reciprocity. However, the credit really goes to our friends in Texas who moved the authority from state po-po to the AG and to THRer Graybeard who told me the score in Tejas and what buttons to push.

Jayb
December 26, 2005, 08:04 PM
I'll be glad to help in whatever capacity I can. Bear in mind that my diplomatic skills have never been in demand, and aren't likely to improve. :rolleyes:

I can arrange for a range weekend for us if desirable......

IndianaDean
December 26, 2005, 08:55 PM
I met a man a few days ago in a gun shop who allowed his carry permit to expire. He was at a DNR range with his family. Being there without a valid license, he was ticketed. I do not know details of the ticket. Judge asked if his gun was confiscated and it was not. Judge stated that it should have been. A new license in hand did not negate the ticket and bias was displayed in his ruling.


Was he just carrying at the range, and not shooting?
You don't have to have a license in Indiana though to shoot at a range. You are required to bring the gun to the range unloaded with the ammo in a separate container. So that doesn't make sense.

IndianaDean
December 26, 2005, 08:57 PM
www.packing.org has not been updated recently. It still shows Texas not honoring Indiana permits.

txgho1911
December 26, 2005, 09:12 PM
He was there to shoot and a gunny who lives close to there has countless times people lose the gun and get cited.
PDO does have part of the website updated. One desctiptor present for mosts states recognized by TX is (High Confidence) except for Indiana as listed as (Medium Confidence).
I would be confident that most if not all TX LEA do not convey s full list of states Liscenses recognized.
Hell seems a lot of people who do not know the law assume TX is open carry and has been for houndreds of years. Well Jim Crow grew up in TX also just like so many other states. I should know being a TX native.

txgho1911
December 26, 2005, 11:06 PM
My better half has no clue I am stirin the puddin. I am gonna be in so much trouble!

I need feedback here and there.
http://www.packing.org/community/la...s/listview/6526
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191849
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=171508
http://community-4.webtv.net/Second...ndmentPatriots/
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=30&t=218062
http://thearmedcitizen.net/forums/s...32871#post32871

Dates
So many are working through the week. I am shooting for a Sat 1/28 or 2/4. Maybe a 1PM or 7PM meeting time. Please respond in the thread so it doesn't get filtered in my mail.

IndianaDean
December 27, 2005, 12:19 AM
He was there to shoot and a gunny who lives close to there has countless times people lose the gun and get cited.



Someone legal needs to investigate this. This sounds to me like a scam they're running. I've read countless times you do not have to have a license to carry your weapon to a place for repair, your business, or to a shooting range.

txgho1911
December 27, 2005, 11:04 AM
In Indiana to move your handgun you need to have a LCH. There are two licenses. One is for the general carrying of a handgun for self-defense. The second is a qualified license required for hunting and target. If you go to a DNR public range with a handgun unlicensed, you may or may not find any trouble. Range officer may not be an enforcement officer. He may or may not warn people that are unlicensed. If a DNR or other, LEO wants to check if people shooting handgun they can and do issue citations and confiscate handguns.
In some states, the car or pickup is considered an extension of your home. Some states (TX) have legislated that in car is to be assumed traveling as travel with a handgun is legal. MO made it legal to keep a handgun in the car without a license when they passed their CWP legislation.

ARperson
December 29, 2005, 12:05 PM
You don't have to have a license in Indiana though to shoot at a range.

You do if it's a handgun. At least on DNR properties. The COs check. Got "carded" with my husband once.

I will keep those times and dates "open" on my calendar. Where though?

txgho1911
December 29, 2005, 09:35 PM
JayB chimed in about 1pm rather than later.

PDO member Minuteman32 told me he might have a meeting room at the Speedway city hall available.

I went around to the different posted sites and requested more feedback. I understand a process to gather a group of folks together who have no social connection whatsoever to create a lobby and campaign support "club or committee".
I know there are many others who never post on a board who may follow many different events or issues discussed here. I would ask for your participation as well and even if you are not a member of any of these boards please send me a note about your interests in this.

I am assuming right now that any effort from Central Indiana and all other corners should be in full cooperation with The 2nd Amendment Patriots. I have spoken at length with a group founder who may have many years of name recognition and political support already under their belt. From my talks with Jim Tomes, there I see no reason for another focus group like this. I have asked for documentation detailing accomplishments and successes. This group is very loosely unorganized and wishes to stay that way. This allows for:
No dues
No book keeping
No irs reporting of any kind
I do believe discussions and issues can be passed easily enough at the range or via e-mail most of the time.
I still see everyone who is willing to work on lobby and campaign efforts as vital and required. Actually making the calls and standing up in legislative committee meetings and voicing our fears and concerns with urging folks who are on our side to stand for what they believe in or campaigned on. I am asking for serious people willing to work away from the keyboard and without the carry gun.

Ok you lurkers if I have anyone considering this that are not on the board please email me directly.
cmjobrien@comcast.net

Jayb
December 30, 2005, 11:38 AM
e-mail sent

txgho1911
January 6, 2006, 07:37 PM
I plan to attend a 2nd Amendment Patriots meeting on Jan 28. I will gather all the info I can with regard to past and present activities and sponsorships. If everything is acceptable to share or re-distribute to others in Indiana I will copy and meet with those willing first Sat in Feb. Are there any specific questions I should raise?
I will print this and every thread related to it. I will highlight every concern contained there in. Even if you see it posted already list the biggest concern you may have that you may not be confident will be repesented adaquitly.

B36
January 6, 2006, 09:17 PM
Well, yeah... I was angry. My background and attitudes did not lend themselves to a response the other day.

I see your point, and you have a valid one. I think I also have a valid point in being concerned about those who would buy a handgun, carry it, and barely know how to load it, much less be termed "safe" with it......... not to mention proficient. I'm not going to divert this thread with this discussion, but I wouldn't mind having it another time/place.

Thanks for whatever your involvement was in the reciprocal agreement with TX. I heard about it very quickly, as I still have family there.

Jay

Jay, no guarantees in life. Freedom is not free.

I urge caution in any attempt to 'improve' what I consider to be one of the finest 'License to Carry Handgun' laws in the US. I really think you might open a large bucket of rotten worms.

As an aside, I have had the above permit since 1970.

As a longtime Life Member of the ISRPA, I would suggest you look at the legislative record of that organization. I would also urge you to join if you are already not a member.

As for as our friend in Lafayette, thanks again. You are a Patriot.

George

El Tejon
January 6, 2006, 09:22 PM
George, you are welcome, but I'm a gun cloth diaper baby, just doing what I was raised to do.:)

Jayb
January 7, 2006, 12:49 AM
George, I'm not quite sure what delusion led you to think I haven't been aware of that for many years. You're out of line.

hub
January 7, 2006, 01:33 PM
i would not say that training is fraud. for those of us who did not have a good father figure to teach us right and wrong, do and dont's and all the basics i would say it's absolutly necessary. when i was in the marines i seen people that had never even touched a weapon before and they were scary flaging people with m-16's on the line loaded till someone jerked a knot in their butt and let them know the rules the hard way. you have all seen them at the range, no common curtiosy(spelling) not asking if the range is clear to set up targets, or shooting on your way back from setting up targets or whatever. as far as suicide goes if they want to go bad enough they will use a , knife, rope, pills or whatever not just guns. guns are just the most convienent and most painless way to go in my opinion. and children should be up to parents if they have firearms. yes they will play with them if they are accessable, i did and they will too it's your job to let them know how they work and atleast how to tell if its loaded and on safe. if they can't understand yet they should be locked up, well the firearms anyway!

Big Gay Al
January 12, 2006, 11:21 PM
I think you can carry open in IN. I also think it's not a good idea. Open carry can invite caustic comments, or a 911 call for "a man carrying a gun"....
Open carry in Indiana is legal ONLY if you have a Permit to carry a handgun.

IndyChris
January 15, 2006, 08:23 PM
Open carry in Indiana is legal ONLY if you have a Permit to carry a handgun.

Has anyone ever actually done this?? I live in a pretty rural area, but I can imagine you may get a few calls!

I make no attempt at concealing on my property, but the nearest neighbor is a 1/3 of a mile up. ;)

Count me in for any help needed in the Indy area also...

Big Gay Al
January 15, 2006, 08:57 PM
Has anyone ever actually done this?? I live in a pretty rural area, but I can imagine you may get a few calls!

I make no attempt at concealing on my property, but the nearest neighbor is a 1/3 of a mile up. ;)

Count me in for any help needed in the Indy area also...
Check out http://www.paulhager.org/ for info on this. Mr. Hager carried openly in Bloomington Indiana for quite a while as part of a social/political experiment he conducted. He documented the whole thing on his site. It's quite interesting, the reactions he got.

IndianaDean
January 15, 2006, 09:26 PM
I'm told, at least in Indianapolis, that while OC may be legal, the police will find a reason to detain you if they see it. Many policemen also may not know it's legal. But other than in a gun shop or range, I have yet to see anyone carrying openly.

Herself
January 15, 2006, 09:48 PM
I wonder if anyone carries openly in Indianapolis? I hate to admit it, but the city is considerably to the Left of the surrounding state. I'm considering it....

--Herself

Big Gay Al
January 15, 2006, 10:07 PM
I'm told, at least in Indianapolis, that while OC may be legal, the police will find a reason to detain you if they see it. Many policemen also may not know it's legal. But other than in a gun shop or range, I have yet to see anyone carrying openly.
I guess if you'd been living in Bloomington during 2000-2001, you might have seen Mr. Hager doing his thing.

When I was growing up in Marion, IN, from time to time, I would see some people packing openly. But I never knew if they had a permit, or were off duty police.

Here in Michigan, we have no law forbidding open carry. However, once you get into a motor vehicle, it is considered concealed, at that point you need a permit.

All things considered, while I am in favor of open carry, I just don't think it's prudent to do so in most places. I would specially recommend against it in large cities.

Big Gay Al
January 15, 2006, 10:09 PM
I wonder if anyone carries openly in Indianapolis? I hate to admit it, but the city is considerably to the Left of the surrounding state. I'm considering it....

--Herself
I wouldn't, unless you have a good lawyer, and a good deal of disposable income.

But that's just my opinion. :)

IndyChris
January 17, 2006, 07:19 PM
I would also second that, keep it covered in the Metro!

Thanks for the link Al, looks interesting!

Herself
January 17, 2006, 08:04 PM
Shucks, Al, I might even be a good lawyer. --But why would I need one? Might be asked to leave a few places for packin' heat, is all. Might have to talk really slow and nice to cops while keeping my hands in plain sight. Indy leans left compared to the rural areas but it's not as blissninnied as all that.

You grew up in Marion? Don't you fool me; I did some of my growing up there (left in '77), and there ain't no folks like you there. There's not much of anything there. If Harvey's Used Bookstore hadn't had a Science Fiction section, I might not have survived myself. Yeeeeech.

--H

Big Gay Al
January 17, 2006, 09:28 PM
Shucks, Al, I might even be a good lawyer. --But why would I need one? Might be asked to leave a few places for packin' heat, is all. Might have to talk really slow and nice to cops while keeping my hands in plain sight. Indy leans left compared to the rural areas but it's not as blissninnied as all that.Hopefully, you won't need a lawyer. But as someone else already pointed out, the LEOs are not always totally aware of the law. Indy is no exception. In fact, you could probably fill law books with what some LEOs don't know about the law. Like I said though, I wouldn't do it in a large city. They might try to set an example, depending on which side the local prosecutor's bread is buttered.

You grew up in Marion? Don't you fool me; I did some of my growing up there (left in '77), and there ain't no folks like you there. There's not much of anything there. If Harvey's Used Bookstore hadn't had a Science Fiction section, I might not have survived myself. Yeeeeech.

--HWell, I was born in Kokomo, but grew up in Marion. Was in class of '74 at Marion High. Came back for a short time in '78 after I left the army, then moved to the Chicago area. Sometimes wish I'd stayed there.

For the most part, the GLBT people try to stay out of sight. I guess they feel that "out of sight" means they won't get picked on. When the Marion Inn, was the Holiday Inn, there was a real TALL bartender there who was pretty obviously gay, but I don't think anyone wanted to mess with him. I'm 6'2" and this guy was taller than me!

I forget the name of the place, but there was a hospital supply store that also sold hobby stuff, it started out in the 1000 or 1100 block of S. Adams, and later moved near to downtown. I want to say around the 400 block of S. Adams St. If it wasn't for that place, and the simulation board games, and later Role-play-games, that they sold, I'd have gone crazy! Unfortunately, I think the place went out of business when the owner died.

Every time I go to visit, the place looks different. Oh well, I guess you can't go home again.

Herself
January 17, 2006, 10:20 PM
With all due respect to Marion -- which I'm sure makes a fine home for some folks -- it is not a home I would care to go home to. None of my family is still there.

The used bookstore and Myer's Radio Supply (very gone now) were my lifelines.

I don't think there's a range there, either! That doesn't mean there wasn't anywhere to shoot. The "bomb shelter"/storm cellar behind my parents house was a great backstop for .22s!

--H

Jayb
January 17, 2006, 10:47 PM
I live in the little town of Swayzee, just west of Marion. There are two members only ranges just outside of Marion, and I have two private places to shoot close to home. If you get in the area, holler, and we'll get some range time.

I've been a ham operator for a long time, and I used to buy all sorts of parts from Myers Radio. The guy who ran it was Don Dilly. He passed away many years ago.

Big Gay Al
January 18, 2006, 02:41 AM
With all due respect to Marion -- which I'm sure makes a fine home for some folks -- it is not a home I would care to go home to. None of my family is still there.

The used bookstore and Myer's Radio Supply (very gone now) were my lifelines.

I don't think there's a range there, either! That doesn't mean there wasn't anywhere to shoot. The "bomb shelter"/stom cellar behind my parents house was a great backstop for .22s!

--H
While I also don't have any family left there, except for an ex-brother-in-law, I have many fond memories of Marion. If it were possible for me to get a job in that area to support myself, I'd move back there in a heart beat.

I find it odd however, that Lansing seems smaller to me than Marion does. Mind you, when I lived there, the population was about 40,000. Yet Lansing, with a population of over 100,000 seems smaller to me, population wise. I guess it's just the way things are so spread out here.

When I lived there, I knew a few of the Local LEOs, and so I had access to their range. It was sort of a throw back to when I was on the PAL sponsered Junior rifle club.

Big Gay Al
January 18, 2006, 02:44 AM
I live in the little town of Swayzee, just west of Marion. There are two members only ranges just outside of Marion, and I have two private places to shoot close to home. If you get in the area, holler, and we'll get some range time.

I've been a ham operator for a long time, and I used to buy all sorts of parts from Myers Radio. The guy who ran it was Don Dilly. He passed away many years ago.
My parents had friends who lived in Swayzee. Unfortunately, my old age is kicking in, and I can't remember their names to save my life. My paternal grandparents lived in Converse, and we used to go visit about once a week. I remember my dad would get about 2.00 worth of gas, which would last for several days. Can't do that anymore. Has to be about $20.00 now. :eek:

txgho1911
January 19, 2006, 10:55 PM
Tomorrow, Wed. the 18th, is the first day to file for political
> office. This includes delegates to the state political conventions. If
> you can get the word out in your e-mails, I think it would be a good
> idea to see how many of us can get elected. This is how we can help get
> control of our political parties.

and from a brizi campaign notice.

The Slating Convention is being held Saturday, January 21st at the Farm Bureau Building at the State Fair Grounds. Volunteers will be asked to arrive at 9:30 am. Precinct Committeemen are permitted to participate as volunteers as well. If you are not a precinct committeeman, this is a great opportunity to watch as our 2006 Republican candidates are slated.

Please RSVP to Megan Robertson at mrobertson@indgop.org or 317-417-4393.

txgho1911
January 19, 2006, 11:09 PM
I open carry every chance I can. When I am off the clock and the wife is not with me. She fears the possible hassle. I have open carried on the canal.

Looks like a face to face will follow a Utah CHL class at the Eagle Creek range.
Sat 2/4/06
No earlier than 2:30 so the class is not disturbed.
Bring handguns and ammo if you are legal to do so. We might be able to hit the range for a few while we are waiting on the class to finish if it's not done by 2PM.

I am going to the Evansville area to attend a regular meeting for the 2nd Amendment Patriots. I am going to carry every thread we have about organizing printed with me. I expect to collect as much about the group as I can. There is no reason we cannot just join the current distribution and add our own individual efforts to current issues.

On-line renewal is finding resistance in the IN house and senate. In the senate the ISP wants $375,000 to start this and maintain it. This is a very ugly insult to everyone aware of the states office of technology and those who have accessed any on-line licensing process through Access Indiana. In the house a committeeman or chair replaced wording with his own to stipulate federal dollars to pay for it. The ISP was ecstatic and the NRA approved. As if they spoke to anyone in Indiana that wants the fed in even deeper.

Even if you cannot make it on Saturday everyone on the board should be doing something to further our rights restoration. Call Write or even showing up in a reps office to state your concerns. Indiana gun owners may well have a case of apathy in to many areas. To many reasons why we don't have an F- on the brady grade or have similar cary laws to Alaska or lifetime liscensure.

Herself
January 22, 2006, 11:37 PM
Do you have a "snow location" in case the weather isn't cooperative? I like Eagle Creek range but it can get awfully chilly even with four walls and a partial roof!

(I need to remember to wear the really big warm coat so I'll have a toasty place to reload mags in!)

--Herself

El Tejon
January 23, 2006, 09:37 AM
The Indiana State Police want a bribe? Wow, that soooo unusual.;)

375 K bribe huh? How about we take it from their training and equipment budget!:cool:

My parents live in Indianapolis. I open carry (weather dependent) when I go back to see them. Never had a problem even downtown Indy.

Only place I have ever been hassled for carrying a pistol is Wheatfield, Indiana.

txgho1911
January 23, 2006, 12:31 PM
There is a classroom there. Outside only for the range use if it isn't tied up by IPD or MCSO.
Don't mean to be so short. Went to work yesterday at 10 AM and just got off a lil while ago. Gnight.

Jayb
January 23, 2006, 06:46 PM
What's the simplest route to Eagle Creek coming south from Kokomo, on US 31? I don't like driving in Indy anyhow, so please don't get me lost.:o

Herself
January 24, 2006, 12:59 AM
Jay, it starts by going right (West) at I-465, and following 465 over around the corner (avoid 865!) to the exit for Eagle Creek. Gimme a sec and I will look the rest up.

Eagle Creek Range is easy to miss! It's not in the main body pf Eagle Creek Park.


El Tejon: sounds like I need your card should I open-carry, if that's not too outside the bounds to ask about.... Will pm you.


Txgho1911: there's a classroom? And they let non-LEOs use it under some circumstances? Whoa! I never knew!

--Herself

Herself
January 24, 2006, 01:23 AM
Jayb,

Here's the drill: there's no exit right where one would be handiest, so you take 465 around, West and it curves South, to the 71st St. Exit (Exit 21). There's a fork, you keep right. You're going to wind through the freeway on a very long zizag down to 56th.
At 71st, go right (West) to Lafayette Rd.
Turn Left (Southeast) onto Lafayette Rd.
Turn right (West) onto 56th St.
Past the intersection with High School Road, keep an eye out for a rustic park-type type sign on your right. A lane goes back at that point, past a "bark park" on the right and curves left into the range area.

Here's a Mapquest (tm) link. The area of the park East of 465 is where the range is. You'll need to zoom out to see the route.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&addtohistory=&address=W%2056th%20St%20%26%20I%20465&city=Indianapolis&state=IN&zipcode=46201&country=US&location=vOcfZSJQG7S521mKFq%2bvDr6esya8PXAEJC4%2b5k4kw%2bOUUE2h1EU6AzlZwuUyoStqK40q75G3T4%2fFDOx4AQopBPFKPaMHTpsMWgTiD6ufYqGOpmZnegzV5aB2MvVqGqCiBpwjoaI2E0c6nIIWAk%2fbGg%3d%3d

Here is a link to the range website, with a photo of the sign and driving directions.

http://www.ecpr.4t.com/

Hope this helps!
--Herself

Jayb
January 24, 2006, 06:44 AM
that'll work.... thank you ma'am. I'd just hate to think of getting lost and firing three shots in the air......:eek:

Jayb
January 25, 2006, 08:12 PM
If there's any interest in it, is there a place on the west side, that those who wanted to could meet for lunch?

Just a thought....

Herself
January 27, 2006, 09:26 AM
Ahh, lunch!

There's pretty much everything down around Lafayette Square, though I haven't been to most of them. Think there's a Pondersa over there, which is generally a choice nobody minds.

Anyone else interested?

--Herself

txgho1911
January 27, 2006, 11:52 AM
I would have to say yes about lunch. If you are picking Ponderosa then how about 12PM?

Jayb
January 27, 2006, 11:58 AM
Sounds good to me. Noon will even give me time to hit the Tipton gun show on the way down.
Geez, what's a better way to spend a Saturday ......gunshow .... lunch with firearms enthusiasts, and then range time to top it off. Now, if only mother nature wakes up properly.......:rolleyes:

If we can get an idea of how many are going to be at Ponderosa, whoever gets there first may be able to get some reasonable seating set up. I will be there.

Herself
January 27, 2006, 06:31 PM
Hubby reminds me Ponderosa is on 38th, South of Lafayette Square and a bit West. Still pretty much in the area by Indianapolis standards. We'll attend if we can.

--H

txgho1911
January 28, 2006, 01:27 AM
I am including previous posts.
4

Jayb
January 31, 2006, 06:37 AM
I'll be there, and should have 3 folks with me, for a total of 4.

madmike
February 1, 2006, 02:46 PM
According to Dispatch, open carry is legal as long as it's holstered or inside the waistband/clothing.

That's what any patrol officer asking will also be told.

We've open carried in a couple of buffets and such when wearing T shirts, and drive to the gun show with EBRs showing in the passenger window. No problem.

I've actually been stopped for a headlight out and had an officer ask, "Is that fanny pack a holster? What are you carrying? A .45? No, I don't need to see your license, just checking."

I've had it lying on the seat when pulled over.

I've had an off duty cop pick me up in his patrol car, heave the bag of potting soil into the back, and take me, my holster and a gas can to get gas and never mentioned it. I was also sweaty and needing a shave after doing some hauling that morning, driving an 18 year old ruster.

Indy has some problems, but hassle over firearms isn't one of them.

Oh, yeah--I found a guy walking down the street with my stolen guitar. We both wound up going downtown. 24 hours later I was out, and I got both the guitar and gun back. I hadn't had my CCW card with me.

The legal officer from the ISP told me, regarding carry of knives (and I quote exactly): "Shoot, you can strap a machete on your hip for all we give a damn."

I'm still trying to figure out why, if I can carry a suppressed, open bolt full auto Uzi under a trench coat, I can't carry a switchblade or throwing star.:confused:

But apart from that our laws aren't bad.

madmike
February 1, 2006, 02:50 PM
Oh, and Gail and I have drill for OCS. Overnight, can't make dinner. We'll savor MREs for you.:rolleyes:

IndianaDean
February 2, 2006, 11:36 PM
Ponderosa is about two streets west of Lafayette Square. It's just west of Moller Road, on the south side of 38th Street. It's in the same complex with a Kroger.

IndyChris
February 3, 2006, 12:05 AM
I'm still trying to figure out why, if I can carry a suppressed, open bolt full auto Uzi under a trench coat, I can't carry a switchblade or throwing star.:confused:

But apart from that our laws aren't bad.

Whats the big deal about the throwing stars? Back in Iowa, you could get em at Paul's discount, order them mailorder, whatever. .. I had no idea they are illegal here, glad I'm not a Ninja!! I'll stick with the firearms! :evil:

As for Saturday, I will be there with my wife, but not to the lunch deal.

Herself
February 3, 2006, 01:09 AM
It's looking like the weather will be sort of stinkeroo for shooting Sat. :( But they've been wrong about that before. There's always hope!

Barring the unforseen, I will be at both the lunch and the meeting.

--Herself

cordex
February 3, 2006, 03:02 PM
I've got set-up duty at church in Greenwood starting at 12:30 so I'm not going to be able to make it.

Have fun, folks.

dhondo2000
February 4, 2006, 10:30 AM
I wonder if anyone carries openly in Indianapolis? I hate to admit it, but the city is considerably to the Left of the surrounding state. I'm considering it....

--Herself
Hi, I've been carrying openly here in Indy for over 8 years and haven't had anyone say anything.

txgho1911
February 4, 2006, 08:40 PM
Met with a few folks today. As I thought some of us have differences of opinion in some areas. We all showed up and there where many who could not for many different reasons. I have been somewhat discouraged in some ways as I have heard very apathetic responces and the excuse:
Thanks, but I get all of the info I need from NRA and ISRPA.

I have spoken to NRA-ILA grass roots co-ordinator about the fact that there are bills in the IN legislature above and beyond hb 1028. She did not have an answer except that the NRA lobbiest in Indiana may not have comminicated beyond the tunnel focus of Castle Doctrine legislation they braught a copy of from FL. Does not seem to matter to the NRA that we in Indiana may have a lifetime liscense in the works. I am speaking of HB 1176.
I made a search on line for isrpa and found something in Italy so I added Indiana to the search and still no direct links to the organization or anything to do with legislative updates.
Copied from email:
I just had a phone conversation with Rep. Woodruff and Sen. Nugent about HB 1176. It has not been scheduled for a hearing on the senate side yet.

Sen. Nugent tells me that the Chairman, Sen. Long, is troubled with the "lifetime" language. He seems to be concerned what would happen if someone has a lifetime permit and does something to have it revoked, how would it be done. Well, it would be the same procedure if someone just received their four year permit and a week later does something wrong. There's no difference.

I've told you before that I'm not too fond of Sen. Long when it comes to standing strong for gun owners. What you all must do and I sincerely hope you will and that is call Sen. Long's office Monday and politely request that he give HB 1176 a hearing. Again the number is 1-800-382-9467, ask the operator to put you into his office. I don't care what state you live in just call him. This bill needs to get a hearing in the senate in the next few days.

Long has given HB 1028 a hearing which is unbelievable. That's Rep. Koch's bill that would allow a citizen to use deadly force like Florida's Castle Doctrine law. Yet Sen. Long has a problem with honest law abiding citizens having a lifetime carry permit to exercise their Constitutional right.

Rep. Woodruff told that me tonight that he has a few more moves if the senate doesn't co-operate, but it would be a whole lot better if they would.

If this becomes law it would be the first in the nation. Every legislator whose name is associated with this will benefit from it. You would think that would occur to Sen. Long.

There are about 130 recipients on this e-mail list. I hope that everyone one of them and their spouse and their friends will call Sen. Long's office, too. Especially everyone in the Ft. Wayne, IN area needs to make the call.

HB 1028, Rep, Koch's bill, I'm told, was a (NRA Bill). HB 1176 is an American citizen gun owner bill. IT'S YOUR BILL. HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT? Do you want the hassle every 4 years from local law enforcement agencies who try to make it a hardship for you to even apply for a permit? Maybe they don't want you to own a gun. Maybe they don't like the medication you have prescribed. Maybe it's just the way you look that doesn't appeal to them. There's countless reasons why they might imagine that you ought not be allowed to exercise your right to keep and bear arms. But a lifetime permit would put a lot of this aggravation behind you.

CALL MONDAY, CALL EARLY!

Jim and Margie
2nd Amendment Patriots
STAY UNITED

txgho1911
February 6, 2006, 09:03 PM
I am going to agree with something said on Sat. The name 2nd Amendment Patriots
may not be as big a claim to Indiana as something else could. How about "Indiana
Gun Owners" or "IGO" for the folks who like the initials better. Maybe we can
communicate this : "Indiana Gun Owners" in cooperation with 2nd Amendment
Patriots, GOA, NRA, JPFO, SAF or just those groups we find responsive as well as
active.
Whatya think?
Gerald

madmike
March 1, 2006, 10:42 AM
Shuriken are illegal because of blissninnies watching too many ninja movies with quotes like, "The angle of the blade is precise to allow it to enter the eye socket and pierce the brain," and "A master can slice the jugular vein from over 100 yards away." (holding up shuriken)

:barf: :fire: :banghead:

Switchblades are banned many places because of too many James Dean movies. The 1958 Switchblade Act was pushed through by concerned mothers, who wanted to ban these "preferred weapons of street gangs." Sound familiar?

:barf: :fire: :banghead:

But hey! Good news in IN! So when do we start lobbying for VT style?:D

Big Gay Al
March 1, 2006, 12:51 PM
But hey! Good news in IN! So when do we start lobbying for VT style?I'd be careful of Vermont style carry. They have more restrictions than Indiana currently has on where you can and can't carry concealed. Considering how inexpensive the Indiana carry permit is, I wouldn't complain much. We have to pay $105.00 for a 5 year permit here in Michigan. I got to tell you, that sucks. Even renewals are $105.00!

madmike
March 1, 2006, 01:31 PM
The goal would be our current rules and no license required.

Hey, the only way to win against restrictions is to go on the offensive.

We start by demanding nukes and "Reasonably" settle for no permit.

Next time, we demand nukes and "reasonably" settle for dropping the transfer fee on suppressors.

Then we "reasonably" settle for new autos.

That's how our rights were taken away. By "reasonable" compromise over things our opponents didn't have.

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