A problem with reforming brass.


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longrifleman
December 18, 2005, 11:20 AM
A little backgroung first.

I picked up a lot of mixed brass at an auction a while back and in the 5 gal bucket! full was about 150 pcs of 30-06 blanks. The necks on the blanks had the edges rolled over enough to hold a cardboard plug that resizing to load bullets is tricky. I can do it but I have a lot of '06 brass already.

I'd been told that there was no big problem re-forming 06 to 7.65 Argie, and I could use more of that I thought that would be a good way to spend some long winter evenings. I cut a few pieces of the 06 slightly longer than the finished length and lubed the cases, a little heavier that for normal resizing.

Ran them in a full length die (Lee, if it matters) and the shoulder won't set back far enough to chamber. Standard length to the shoulder is supposed to be 1.876, and the reformed brass measured 1.891. I ran some fired 7.65 brass through and it reformed properly. I've tried running the brass through more than once and it won't change the dimensions.

I don't understand what the problem might be. The 06 brass may be slightly thicker, but I haven't split a case to measure that. No problem to do if anyone thinks it would help

I'm stumped, but I'm too cheap to throw away brass if I can figure out a way to use it.

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timuchin
December 18, 2005, 12:28 PM
I make 8mm out of 30-06, and the brass is so long that it will bottom out in the die before the shoulder has been pushed back far enough. I have to anneal it, size it, trim it, size it again, and trim it again. It's still kind of tough chambering the first time, until it fire forms.

RecoilRob
December 18, 2005, 12:34 PM
The only thing I can think of would be to try annealing a few and see if they form better.

Heat the area until it glows dull red in dim light and throw it immediately into a bucket of water.

This should soften them and reduce the springback that I think might be causing your problems.

snuffy
December 18, 2005, 12:38 PM
Once a long time ago I heard that blank brass was made from brass that failed inspection for normal bulleted ammo. Just what was wrong with it didn't survive my failing memory. If I encounter blank '06 MT's or for that matter live ones, I toss them in the scrap brass bin,(after dumping the powder and killing the primer).

The Bushmaster
December 18, 2005, 01:51 PM
Like Snuffy...I was told a time or two a bunch of years back not reload blank brass, but to chuck it...

klw
December 18, 2005, 06:46 PM
I went nearly nuts trying to figure out why after a few firings I couldn't get my reloads to chamber. I had bought the brass from Buffalo Arms. They had made it out of VERY old 30-06 cases. Would work find once or twice but not after that. I checked everything I could think of. Nothing.

So I decided to try a different set of reloading dies. My original ones were Lyman. When I switched to RCBS the problem completely disappeared and never came back. Probably got 15 reloads per case.

As best I could determine the exact location of the shoulder varied ever so slightly between the Lyman and RCBS cases. Not enough for me to measure but enough for the rifle to object.

So I'd suggest buying an RCBS full length resizing die and see if that helps.

The Bushmaster
December 18, 2005, 07:32 PM
klw... HUH?!? You do realize that we are discussing Blanks. You know cerimonial (funeral)(21 gun salute)(practice) rounds here. the ones that have a real extreme crimp to hold the wad and powder? No shoulder problem. Just "How to deal with the crimp" problem...:D

klw
December 18, 2005, 08:10 PM
Nope I missed the blank part.

drinks
December 18, 2005, 10:13 PM
LRM;
Anneal a case and then run it in a .308 die what ever it takes to get it to chamber, then fire form and see if that does not take care of the problem.:cool:

snuffy
December 18, 2005, 11:36 PM
I went nearly nuts trying to figure out why after a few firings I couldn't get my reloads to chamber. I had bought the brass from Buffalo Arms. They had made it out of VERY old 30-06 cases. Would work find once or twice but not after that. I checked everything I could think of. Nothing.

So I decided to try a different set of reloading dies. My original ones were Lyman. When I switched to RCBS the problem completely disappeared and never came back. Probably got 15 reloads per case.

As best I could determine the exact location of the shoulder varied ever so slightly between the Lyman and RCBS cases. Not enough for me to measure but enough for the rifle to object.

So I'd suggest buying an RCBS full length resizing die and see if that helps.


KLW, your fl die was too long, or the shell holder was too thick. The new dies must have been a little on the short side, that moved the shoulder back a little further. Or you didn't have the fl die screwed down tight onto the top of the shell holder.

I know what the die instructions say, to screw the FL die down to the shell holder with the ram raised all the way up. But it has to be actually touching the shell holder WITH A CASE IN IT while being sized. This usually takes another 1/9 to 1/4 turn tighter.

I just got a turk mauser in 8x57JS. i didn't have very many 8MM shells around, so I decided to form some from 30-06. After trimming they wouldn't chamber. I had the headspace checked,(the #'s didn't match), it was extremely tight, almost a no-go. I turned the size die down another 1/4 turn to toggle over harder, then they would chamber with some resitance. After fire-forming, they loaded normally.

Sunray
December 19, 2005, 02:19 AM
Before you do anything look to see if they're Berdan primed. If they are, pitch 'em or turn 'em into drawer pulls.

longrifleman
December 20, 2005, 10:04 AM
Update:

I annealed the cases and ran them through the die again and they chamber properly. Thanks RecoilRob.

Now, snuffy and Bushmaster have got me nervous about using them. If your memories have been sufficiently jogged about why blank brass is not reloadable I'd like some more details. I'll probably load up 10 rounds with a starting load and check the brass afterward. If they show any signs of weakness/failure I'll chuck all the blank cases.

RecoilRob
December 20, 2005, 10:55 PM
Glad the annealing did the trick. But, I too seem to remember somewhere someone talking about the blanks being made from rejected cases.

Makes you wonder how they actually do it, doesn't it? They would need a big REJECT pile to throw cases into for future blank production, wouldn't they?

What happens when/if an order for blanks comes through and the Reject Pile doesn't have enough on it to complete it? They would have to make new ones. So, it would seem to me that at least SOME of the blanks would be made from first line brass.

Sure, some of them MIGHT be from rejected lots but brass can be rejected for a whole host of reasons that have nothing to do with structural integrity. It would seem that if they pass your stringent visual inspection (might be a good idea to weigh them too), it would be OK to try a few in a starting load.

If nothing out of the ordinary shows up, well, I would think you are good to go. But this is just my semi-uninformed opinion and I could be wrong. But I would also be doing the same thing as you right now so be careful and good luck!

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