training?

[pax]

(Note to forum mods: I put this in Gen'l Handgun discussion because I'd like answers from people who haven't had training, or who have had only a little -- and who thus are unlikely to be surfing the T&T forum.)

So a friend of mine and I had a long and interesting discussion last night at a party. We were trying to figure out why so few people get advanced firearms training.

I'd like to invite speculation on that topic from people to whom the following apply:

You're into handguns for self-defense.
You have a carry permit, and carry at least some of the time.
You haven't had any training, OR you have had only as much training as your state requires in order to obtain a carry permit.
You have no real intention of taking any firearms classes in the near future.

Please, if the list above doesn't describe you, send me a PM with your thoughts. I'd really like this thread to be primarily by & about the folks to whom it does apply.

So how 'bout it, folks? If you carry a gun for defense but don't plan to visit a gun school -- why not? What are your thoughts & reasoning about this?

pax

[psyopspec]

I'm in the military, but I have no formal training specifically related to defensive pistol. I have a carry permit, and exercise it regularly.

I would eventually like to take classes from LFI, Front Sight, or one of the many others. The reasons I haven't so far consists of money, time, and money. As it is, I'm a full time student with a full time job. That doesn't leave much in the way of time or fun money. Location doesn't act in my favor either, since the cost of any school rises significantly when you have to travel to the opposite end of the country to attend.

Edited to add: For me the reasons I have not are practical. However, I remember when I was first getting into pistols and learning about the various schools out there. My mind automatically equated them with fringe anti-gov types like the Freemen in MT. I quickly changed my mind when I looked into it a little more, but I'm sure a lot of pistol owners aren't aware of the schools' existence or classify the schools as something for "extremists."

[grimjaw]

I do intend to get training, but have the same problems that psyopspec does, minus the school bit. Work requires me to travel often, and I've had to use vacation time for other things. I will admit it hasn't been my top priority, but it's still a priority.

jmm

[XLMiguel]

Time/schedule, $$, and location have been problematic. I read, practice, do some drills described in the gun rags, but I hope once life settles down (I;m nearly retired), I can go to a real school such as SIGArms Academy or Thunder Ranch, and maybe get into some kind of league (ISPC/IDPA/PPA).

[mattjoe]

All of your four qualifiers apply to me.

What are my thoughts and reasoning for not attendng a gun school?

Because I have absolutely no need or desire to pay someone to tell me how to carry a concealed firearm, draw it, and shoot it, when I already know how, and probably can, faster and more accurately than the instructor can.

If the instructor happens to be someone like Todd Jarrett, or Jerry Barnhardt, then I take that last statement back. For now I'll keep spending my money on more shooting.

[Hypnogator]

So a friend of mine and I had a long and interesting discussion last night at a party. We were trying to figure out why so few people get advanced firearms training.
A very good question. I've been toying with the idea of developing a "civilian" judgmental shooting training course for CCW holders, but I've not been able to convince myself that it'd be worth the time and expense to film the scenarios and develop the curriculum. It's amazing that people who spend thousands on top-quality defensive firearms aren't willing to pony up a couple of hundred dollars for training that could very well mean the difference between living and dieing in a deadly force situation.:rolleyes:

[HSMITH]

Well, I fit your description. I would like to get some training on the specific legal aspects of concealed carry, but I don't feel like I need the firearms training most courses offer.

I have been approached to certify and instruct several courses on CCW and combat shooting but I just don't have the time.

[pax]

Thanks for the answers so far, guys. Please keep them coming!

pax

[BullfrogKen]

Pax, my wife would like to take training, but insists it be a women only class, or one with only one or two other men who are as new to the skills as her. She doesn't mind if the instructor is a man; and she in fact loves John Holschen. We both took Defensive Folding Knife I from him a few years ago, and she commented on his warm and inviting personality many times. She's met him outside the classroom, but said she was very impressed with his class teaching style.

She feels too self-conscious to train with men.

[poppy]

pax, I will meet your criteria once I get my CCW license here in Ohio.

I was a gun enthusist/collector before CCW was available here. I have usually had one or more handguns readily available for HD.

I want a carry permit so that I have that option. I may be like my buddy who got his permit, has a nice Kimber Ultra Carry with leather and puts in some practice time. He has never carried.

I liken it to my sports car. One reason I got the Miata is because it is a poor man's race car. In order to actually do some track time, I had to take a minimum course on racing. In the 11 years that I have owned the car I have only "raced" it once. I got the car to drive it, not race it.

I have handguns because I like firearms, and I like shooting them. I have several that are potential carry pieces, and may carry them from time to time.

This same buddy of mine as asked me to join him sometime next summer for an advanced training course. I may do it for the fun and experience, but it would not necessarily cause me to carry more. poppy

[P. Plainsman]

It's purely a matter of not getting off my butt and getting the training. I need and want training. It's more a problem of time than of money in my case.

Perhaps I am also slightly put off by the prospect of being the only wheelgunner in a class? I tote a snubby and use an N-frame revolver as my nightstand gun.

[spacemanspiff]

i was offered to go to a class for advanced handgun, by the instructor who taught my CHL class. i chose not to, since he and his range safety officers could not maintain (and seemed disinterested in) a safe range, both on and off the line.

there are some drills i'd like to get more practice in, such as shooting on the move, the use of cover, etc, but thats more for fun than to actually train.

since i started shooting four years ago, i have noticed my skills have greatly improved. i know i can get good hits on paper at the range. how that will translate into a defensive situation, i do not know. would the advanced training be able to put my body through the adrenalin rush that i am sure to go through when my life is indeed in danger?

[carebear]

We could go out in the woods and I could shoot near you Spiff, that'd get your adrenaline up.

You could even have an airsoft gun and shoot back, but no head shots, I'm too pretty to bruise. :evil:

Pax,

Cost and (primarily) time are the big factors for me as well. Although I think I'm mentally short-changing myself by having internalized I have to go to a "name" school for it to be worthwhile. There's some guys up here who are guest instructors at Gunsite et al. if I'm reading their creds right.

[timothy75]

Like Matjoe mentioned I think alot of people who've been into shooting all their life dont feel they need it because they can shoot. For new shooters who want to get up to speed quickley I think its a good idea. Also I dont think a civilian wants to pay 1000$ when their not police officers and live a low risk lifestyle. I dont think cops would pay it either but they get grants and 95% discounts.

[ChristopherG]

My experience has been that someone interested in becoming a better shooter can do so with observation, reading, and practice, practice, practice (the best practice being competition with other shooters). If I had the chance to take a class with Jerry Miculek, I'd probably take it (being primarily a wheelgun shooter); but in general, I feel capable of making progress as a shooter on my own through disciplined practice and study. My focus has always been on shooting per se; and as far as shooting goes, I doubt there are many trainers out there who can tell me something I haven't already read or heard or tried (I'm honestly not trying to sound like a bigshot or smartaleck, here--it's just a function of the media society, of widespread paper and electronic information). I know there are shooters out there who shoot my kind of shooting (practical/IDPA/USPSA), with my kind of gun, better than I do; but basically, they're better than me because they shoot more than I do. That's a function of time and money, not training.

As for the non-shooting 'tactics' part, I think I take a rather relaxed view of this side of things because of who I am and where I live. My life is a pretty low-stress affair; I don't think I stand a high chance of running into a hairy situation. And, I'm a reasonably physically capable, six-foot ten-stone guy. Perhaps its foolish thinking, but in my mind, I'm not too concerned about threat situations that aren't deadly serious; and if such a situation does arise, I imagine I'm as well equipped as most folks to make a decision about the use of deadly force, and better than most to actually use it.

So the short answer (obviously far too late) to 'why not get training' is: I don't think I need it for shooting, and I'm not worried enough about tactics to seek it out (and pay for it, etc.). It's a good, thought-provoking question, Pax; sorry if my thoughts spilled over a bit.

[RavenVT100]

One should always avoid the trap of assuming one knows enough about a given situation to be competent in it. The value of training is that it can show you what you did not know so you then know what to go and learn.

The tendency for individuals who are unskilled in a given discipline to hold overinflated views of their own competence has been scientifically documented.

http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.

As much as we love to love the APA, this paper is worth reading. It hilights the importance of training, especially in areas that we didn't think we required training in.

The downside is that the more training one engages in, the more a person is aware of their shortcomings and it can actually cause you to feel, in the short term, less competent overall. That is, until you begin practicing the new things you have learned.

[Ankeny]

In my case, it's very difficult for me to find advanced firearms training without paying through the nose for the beginning and intermediate training. A couple of schools have offered to waive the initial requirements, but the expense still causes me to pause.

I think a lot of folks are under the misconception that defenseive pistol training is all about skill development with a handgun. In reality, the act of shooting the gun constitutes perhaps one third of the equation. There is a huge difference between pure pistolcraft and gunfighting.

The tendency for individuals who are unskilled in a given discipline to hold overinflated views of their own competence has been scientifically documented.

It's also true that people who are extremely skilled in one facet of firearms tend to think they can extrapolate skills from one area into another area. For instance, I bet we all know at least one tactabilly who thinks he can whip Rob Leatham in a gunfight because they have superior tactics. Likewise, I would imagine we all know guys who are pretty good in the gun games who believe being adept with a pistol on a square range is all they need to survive a deadly encounter. The last thing I need is some guy trying to teach me how to shoot, but I sure could use some training on gunfighting.

[XD Niner]

When I bought my first pistol, I took an "advanced" CCW class about a month after I picked up the gun. This gave me a few weeks to get familiar with the pistol prior to taking the formal training. That seemed about right as it allowed me to get comfortable with my new weapon but not yet pick up too many bad habits.

I then took my CCW class. I termed it advanced because it not only covered all the basic safety and CCW issues but it offered an introduction into self-defense. The instructor was a certified NRA instructor as well as the local SWAT instructor. He is also a former Marine shooting instructor. As you can imagine, he is a font of knowledge as well as being a great coach. It only cost $125 to boot which is one of the best investments I've ever made.

A couple of weeks ago I took a Tactical Pistol 2 course from Bill Jeans of Morrigan Consulting at our local range. Bill is a former chief instructor for Gun Sight. Having him come to our local range made it a pretty inexpensive two days. I received even more self defense training and we had a chance to shoot at night. Again, it was a great investment of money and time.

Like everyone else, I never seem to have as much time to train as I would like. However, I wouldn't want to carry a pistol without at least the training I've had to date. I intend to take some type of course each year in addition to twice weekly practice sessions at the range.

[middy]

$$$

[spacemanspiff]

We could go out in the woods and I could shoot near you Spiff, that'd get your adrenaline up.
You could even have an airsoft gun and shoot back, but no head shots, I'm too pretty to bruise.
i cant tell if its my spidey sense or gaydar going berserk when some guy wants to take me to a secluded place while mentioning how pretty he is?

:neener:

[dav]

Pax, it's all about money for me.

Also, frankly, there is no way to know whether the training is going to be any good, even if someone else who took the class thought it was good for THEM.

If we could watch the class being given, and then decide whether to pay for it or not, I'd try a few out. Unfortunately, in the real world, that means most people would think they got enough out of the preview and never take the class.

But buying an EXPENSIVE pig in a poke is hard for us practical types to do.

$1,000.00 on a gun? Hey, I've got a thousand dollar gun for my money. A thousand dollar gun course? I may not have ANYTHING for my money. And until I've spent the thousand (which I do not have) I will never know if it would have been worth it to me, or not.

[Standing Wolf]

Very little formal education in firearms here.

By the way, one trains a dog and educates a person.

I'll take a class or two to become an N.R.A.-certified safety instructor some time in the next year. That's primarily because I've reached an age at which people think in terms of repaying the fraternity of shooters for its kindness and generosity, as well as passing on the accumulation of knowledge to succeeding generations.

I'm first, last, and always a bullseye shooter. I may someday sign up for a bullseye shooting clinic, although I have a suspicion the folks at my local acupuncture clinic may be of somewhat greater value.

If I were interested in combat-style shooting, I might take a course in it, or if I thought it more than very remotely likely I'd ever need to clear leather to save my life and/or property.

I have no trouble spending money—heck, Visa's got money by the tanker truck!—but find the older I grow, the more niggardly I become with time. A half-day course would appeal to me much more than a week at the Thunder Stick Ranch, or wherever.

[hillbilly]

Define "advanced?"

I teach CCW for the state of Arkansas.

My course is pretty basic.

But for lots and lots and lots of students, their experience at my course is pretty darn advanced.

To people who've had real firearms training, my course is by no means advanced. But for about 95% of the folks who come through, they think it's really advanced.


I've been to two advanced long-range rifle courses.

And the reason I haven't been to more advanced training is time to go, and money to get there.

hillbilly

[pax]

hillbilly ~

Thought I'd defined "advanced" in my first post. For the purposes of this thread, "advanced firearms training" means any training over & above that required by law in order to CCW in your state.

Standing Wolf ~

To educate someone is to provide them with facts about something. To train them is to teach them how to do something. When I learned to drive, I took Driver's Education (sitting in a classroom taking notes) and followed it up by taking Driver's Training (ain't dual brakes grand?) College education is followed by on-the-job training. Firearms schools generally provide both education and training -- but it's the training that is generally considered most crucial.

All ~

Good answers so far. Please keep them coming!

pax

[SRYnidan]

Pax

I guess that I fall into your test group for this.
I have been shooting for years first IPSC (the game is just not training) then a Paladin group here in Las Vegas.
I got the chance to take John Farnam’s urban Rifle (pistol and shotgun) some years ago and it was excellent.
I have not done anything since and the biggest reason is money. I am retired Air Force working civil service and have two teenage boys. There just isn’t enough to go around I guess.

The other issue is that if I am going to drop good money I really want to go somewhere that I think the training will be excellent and that generally ups the price even more or at least adds travel and lodging to the equation.

[hillbilly]

Pax, I re-read your first post.

Here's something to consider about "level of training required for you state's CCW."

Some states (like Texas) specify you must be able to hit X number of shots on a specific type of target in a specific amount of time.

In Arkansas, "qualification" is left up to the judgement of the CCW instructor.

I know through the testimony of people who've either come to my class or come to my CCW renewal program, that there are a lot of CCW instructors in Arkansas who have their "students" shoot as little as five total shots to "qualify."

That's right....shoot five shots at a target, and voila! You done passed the shootin' part of your CCW class.

Lots of folks who come to my CCW renewal program are shocked, totally shocked, when I tell them they will need at least 75 rounds of ammo.

They are shocked, shocked I tell you, when they find out they will shoot with both hands, use the sights, use one hand, point shoot without the sights, shoot from 7 yards, shoot from less than one yard, and even try taking cover before firing a shot in the drills I have them do.

Again, in Arkansas, my little old course really is (sadly enough) "advanced training" for a disturbing number of my students.

And that's using your own definition of "advanced" training.

hillbilly

[pax]

hillbilly ~

I'll reply by PM so as not to veer the thread any further off course.

***

Repeat of original question:

I'd like to invite speculation on that topic from people to whom the following apply:

You're into handguns for self-defense.
You have a carry permit, and carry at least some of the time.
You haven't had any training, OR you have had only as much training as your state requires in order to obtain a carry permit.
You have no real intention of taking any firearms classes in the near future.

Please, if the list above doesn't describe you, send me a PM with your thoughts. I'd really like this thread to be primarily by & about the folks to whom it does apply.

So how 'bout it, folks? If you carry a gun for defense but don't plan to visit a gun school -- why not? What are your thoughts & reasoning about this?

pax

[Legionnaire]

Friendly bump. I'm interested in seeing more answers to Pax's original question.

[honkeoki]

I shoot regularly at two ranges and infrequently at another two. I've seen several classes, and they all look like this:

Half-a-dozen people in camouflage pants, black boots, black t-shirts and Blackhawk web gear blazing away with their Kimber Customs while a pudgy man in a boonie hat and sunglasses screams, "Think tactical!" at them.

The man in the boonie hat could be a Navy Seal, a Ranger or the world's most highly-paid assassin. Even so, I just can't take this set-up seriously. I won't take any training classes until I hear of a trainer with references from non-mall-ninjas.

[MCgunner]

I'm pretty much a lifelong shooter, from age 6 for my first "training" with my BB gun to age 16 when I got my first handgun to age 52, now. I've taken the CCW course, of course, three times now, two of 'em renewals. I took a course that certified me to teach the NRA pistol and rifle courses. I dropped that certification after several years because I wasn't using it. But, that's my only formal training. I have a brain and I can figure out things. I shoot a lot, I've done some IDPA and consider that about as good training for actual shooting as any, really.

There are all sorts of "schools". For me, practice makes perfect. There's only so much you can be taught, just like motorcycle road racing which I've been doing for 30 years now. Nothing like seat time to learn to go fast. If you are new, you need instruction, especially in gun safety! Take the NRA course first, worry about self defense later. The NRA course teaches safety and marksmanship. CCW courses aren't set up to do that. You're supposed to already know how to handle your gun by that time.

IDPA is about as close to an actual gunfight scenario as I can get on a budget without going out and shooting somebody. It's affordable and it's fun. I ain't spending 500 bucks at "Thunder Ranch" or somewhere just to say I did. It won't make me a better shooter. It might teach me some different things I can live without, but I'm a civilian. I don't need to know how to "clear a room". I'm going to be locked in my bedroom behind the mattress with my .38 and cell phone calling 911 if it's a home thing. If I'm on the street, the scenarios we shoot in IDPA are more likely to keep me in practice.

These self professed "experts" that teach these schools all have different ideas. There was one in Houston taught by some Israeli dude that taught to draw condition three and rack the slide! SCREW THAT! That's why I carry a DAO, so all I have to do is pull the trigger.

Nope, I don't need no stinkin' school, thanks. JMHO though. If you think it makes you better with your firearm, go for it. I say burning a hundred rounds or three a week is enough to keep your edge. A hundred rounds or three a day would work better. Shooting is what it takes, practice. At some point you pretty much don't need to be educated, you need to educate your motor skills. If you are brand new to shooting, the NRA pistol course is NUMBER ONE step! Learn your safety and marksmanship techniques there, then practice, practice, practice and get accomplished at safe gun handling, then take the CCW course for your permit. Again, JMHO.

[Thefumegator]

Short answer: Money. I simply can't afford good training right now.

Longer answer: I do what I can to "train" myself -- I do lots of dryfire practice, drawing, etc. on a B27 that I have up on a concrete basement wall. I also try to get to the range at least once a week (but during winter in Utah, that's really not always an option).

My next step is to get into IDPA. I've been to a single, solitary match, and while it's not "training," I do feel that it's definitely much better practice than shooting at a single paper target. Definitely much that can be learned there.

It's one of my biggest wishes to be able to go to Gunsite at some point in the not-too-distant future, but as I said, it's just not realistic right now. College sucks up way too much money for that.

Wes

[Correia]

Wes, come by my store when you get the chance. There may be some training opportunities, for cheaper, and from very qualified, experienced, instructors available soon.

[KadicDeshi]

Well, I'd say I meet your criteria, Pax.

I got my CHL in April of 2004 while still in school. I graduated in May 2004 and didn't find a full-time job until April of this year. Since, I've bought two pistols, a CZ75 I picked up used and an SP101 I bought new for carry and put on my credit card. That said, I pretty much live paycheck to paycheck. Any time I get a little cash ahead something pops up that needs to be done. My car's alternator goes out, hospital bill, whatever. So I really can't afford to shell out a couple hundred bucks for training and whatever travel is required on top of that.

Also, I have absolutely no idea what type of class would be best for me. The 8 hour course that was required for my license was basically a reinforcement of the info I'd picked up on the forums I'd visited to that point. Do I really need to go to a basic safety course if I can handle a gun without being a danger to myself or others? Am I overestimating my abilities in this area as one poster pointed out that people are likely to do? Are there classes where the instructor can and will take the time to help you with proper stance, grip, sight picture, etc.? And is there a class like that in my area where I won't have to take a week off work just to get in 2 days of training? How can I know that a local place will actually help and not just load me up on BS? I mean, even some of the big instructors have their detractors.

In short, while I'd love to have someone that I can trust teach me to be more competent overall, I don't know how to go about finding that person and relaying my needs to him/her.

Sorry if that got confusing or too wordy.

Barrett

[voilsb]

I used to fit in your categories ... right now I don't, because I don't have a CCW for the state I'm in and I do plan to get additional training, but I'm not sure if it's in the "near" future or not ...



Anyways, I didn't get additional training primarily because of the cost. I had a $400 gun, a $60 permit, a $10 holster, and a $3 belt. I knew enough about training (from the infantry) to know that I could at least work on some myself, without taking a class. I practiced draws. I did dry fire drills. I did point-shooting drills. When I could afford the extra ammo to shoot without dipping into my carry ammo I'd live-fire double-taps, point-shooting, shoot-and-move, etc. I wargamed scenarios constantly.

Now, none of this probably comes close to a "Defensive Handgun 1" course, and definintely not the "Def. Handgun 3" or whatever. But it was better than nothing. It was what I could afford. I always intended to get additional training, but it was also always "some day" down the road, when I could afford it.

[BlkHawk73]

All of your four qualifiers apply to me.

What are my thoughts and reasoning for not attendng a gun school?

Because I have absolutely no need or desire to pay someone to tell me how to carry a concealed firearm, draw it, and shoot it, when I already know how, and probably can, faster and more accurately than the instructor can.



So when is the "Mattjoe Shooting Academy" set to open? :rolleyes:

[taliv]

pax, i loosely fit in the definition. i have a ccw from TN and attended some advanced rifle training at a well-regarded school. i also took a 1-day advanced handgun class from a well-regarded instructor at a local range about 3 yrs ago.

i thought about planning to take a defensive handgun class once /yr or something, and i almost went to 2 other schools last year, but i didn't.

the reasons are, in no particular order.

dissatisfaction with the rifle school: (i'm assuming their pistol instruction woudl be similar) it was ok, but there were several instructors there and some gave what i assume to be good advice about things i have no personal experience in, while the assistant instructors gave horrendus advice about things i happen to know are incorrect. i'm not talking styles and opinions. i'm talking math/science.

the real source of disatisfaction with schools is my expectation that for that amount of $ i LEARN something at a school that i can then practice on my own. i don't feel people are well served by taking a week-long class and then not shooting regularly. i did actually learn one thing in both schools (i learned to tap the turrets on my scope after adjusting them and i learned a better way to reset the sear, respectively), but it wasn't worth the $ to go again or try another school. by that i mean, i didn't shoot $2000 better when i left than i did when i got there.

alternatives: i shoot some IDPA competitions and 5000+ rnds from my carry piece each year. that costs about 1/2 of what i would spend on tuition/travel/lodging at a reputable school. just shooting seems to be a better bang for the buck.

alternatives: i can get a better education here (THR) than in a school. sure, there's a lot of noise, but it's not hard to tell who knows what they're talkign about and who doesn't.

the training and drills taught at schools are pretty much common knowledge. you can practice them yourself if you have a suitable range. just do them until you get them right. odds are, you know people who've been to school or were trained in the military and can help you out if you get stuck on something.

last spring/summer, i inquired to several different schools about their classes but i decided to spend my vacation time and $ on a trip to camp perry instead. what turned me off was the attitude i got on the phone.

the attitude requires some understanding. i ask a lot of questions from people i am paying to teach me because i want an indepth understanding. i expect them to give THOUGHTFUL answers and not get defensive and give me the "because i've been shooting people since WWII so take my word for it" stuff. that tells me they may know how to DO but not how to teach.

to get me to go back to school, would take a combination of a range that i don't have (e.g. moving targets, a building i can shoot in, etc), a staff with the right attitude and skillsets, and a more personalized experience. cost is only a relative factor for me.

[JohnKSa]

I have never had any formal training other than what it took to get my instructor certifications...

Reasons I haven't.

1. I've done well in the competitions I've tried including moving & shoot/reload/low-light type scenarios.
2. I would rather spend my money on guns, ammo & range time rather than travel and training.
3. I have been able to find places to do move & shoot and low-light practice on my own.
4. It's been my experience that a motivated person who is willing to do research and put in time on their own can figure most things out without professional help.

I am sure that I could learn from a formal training situation. Maybe even a lot. But based on how my skills and knowledge measure up to that of folks with more formal training, I'm not convinced it's worth the money & time. This is certainly not advice. I'm not sure that what I've done is even really the best approach for me although it has worked tolerably. I certainly wouldn't recommend the same approach for others.

Then again, I spend most of my spare time taking guns apart, shooting guns, reading about guns, talking about guns, practicing with guns, etc... :D

[ChristopherG]

Well, there've been several well stated answers now to the question; Pax, would you like to comment on them? I take the general gist of the clearest two streams of thought represented here to be:

(1) not enough time/money/whatever--but this is not an answer to your question, so can be ignored

(2) a questioning of the value of training, in two parts:
(a) its value in making you a better shooter, compared to an equivalent amount of time, trouble & money spent on shooting and especially on competing in action-shooting sports; and
(b) the unstandardized, unverified, uncertain--and I would say, sometimes rather shrouded in 'tactical mystery'--NON-shooting parts of the training. People (myself included) are unsure that they are relevant to our lives, whatever they are, quite apart from being unsure of the quality of content.

Would the thread starter or someone else with experience in these areas like to respond to these questions about, and sometimes challenges to, the value of 'training'?

[pax]

Christopher, I'm still reading these and learning from most posts. Lots of good food for thought here and I'm not sure I want to cut off the very thoughtful answers by arguing with any of it.

Might start another thread on that topic, long 'bout next week or so.

pax

[ChristopherG]

Okay; glad to hear you're still on it, and I'll look foward to step 2.

[Mtnvalley]

This is an excerpt from an e-mail sent to me when signing up for FrontSight's newsletter. It doesn't answer directly to the original post, but is IMHO exceptionally relevant.

Since there was no copyright/confidentiality notice on the e-mail, and anyone with an e-mail account can get this at no cost, I don't think there would be any issue with posting it. Frontsight gives a fuller lecture on the subject that explains the concept much more thoroughly, but I think I'd be overstepping were I to copy and post from the lecture handout. This excerpt should give the general idea, though...thought-provoking stuff, IMHO, for any shooter whether or not they have training on whatever level.
__________
This is a direct transcript from the live introduction
given by Ignatius Piazza, Front Sight's Founder and
Director.

Front Sight's Purpose and the Five Levels of Competence.

(stuff deleted)

With that said, what is our purpose? Well it is a large
one. And the easiest way to explain this is to review
something that we call the Five Levels of Competence.

The lowest level of competence is what we refer to as
the II. That stands for Intentionally Incompetent. These
are the people that know they need training but they lack
the courage and the motivation to get it. They actually
avoid training because in exposing themselves to training,
they expose their inadequacies to their peers and they
fear that greater than death itself. Fortunately we don't
see the II at Front Sight very often. I can count on one
hand the number of times we have in the last 5 years. In
each case they were sent to us by their department or by
someone who was concerned that this person needed training
and they just weren't getting it.

The II does not want to be here. They waste our time, they
waste your time. I tell you about them simply because they
are out there and you should avoid them like the plague.
Because if you count on the II when the chips are down,
they will take you right to the grave with them.

Then for no fault of their own there is the UI. This stands
for Unconsciously Incompetent. These are the people that
do not know that they do not know. And unfortunately it
makes up about 95% of the gun owning population. Now I
realize that's a shockingly high figure for many of you to
comprehend. When we provide our one day courses, we tell
our students that a one day course will not bring them to
a full understanding of the Five Levels of Competence. The
reason it does not is because in a one day course we do
not put those students into a live fire tactical training
simulator. A simulator that's as close to a real gun fight
as we can make it without anybody getting physically hurt.
And it's in those simulators that students begin to
understand that in a real gun fight, you're only going to
be about half as good as you are in the best day on the
training range simply from the stress of someone trying
to take your life. Unfortunately, 95% of the gun owning
population does not know this.

Let me give you some examples of the UI:

The police officer who only fires his weapon for
mandatory range qualification two or three times a year is
Unconsciously Incompetent.

Military personnel, especially the Reserve Units and
National Guard who have not trained with their weapons or
live ammunition for 6 months or a year and then are
quickly called up and sent off to some foreign part of the
world to fight a police action, they too are Unconsciously
Incompetent.

Then there is the hunter who buys the brand new high
powered rifle, books the African safari and when the guide
places him within 75 yards of a trophy animal, he misses
the shot, or worse wounds the animal and now you spend the
rest of the day tracking large, dangerous, wounded game.
He too, is Unconsciously Incompetent.

Then there's the gun owner, who thinks that without having
any type of training like we offer here at Front Sight,
simply having a pistol and a box of ammunition is all he
needs for protection should he hear breaking glass in the
middle of the night. He too, is Unconsciously Incompetent.

This even extends to all those people out there who have a
Concealed Weapon Permit. Who've only taken that mandatory
8 hours course that the county required. Six of those hours
spent talking about where and when they can legally carry
a gun, a couple hours with some very minimal training in a
very minimal skills test and now they're out there on the
street carrying a gun thinking that should someone step up
to try to take their life, they have all the tools they
need to protect it. They, too, do not know what they do
not know.

Now why is it that I know so much about this UI? Well it's
because I was the biggest UI. I was the gun shop owner's
best friend. When a new gun came out on the cover of Guns
and Ammo, I would immediately run down to my local gun shop
and buy two; complete with all the accessories they could
sell me. And I viewed these guns are collectables and art
objects, not as tools or weapons. Then one day a
relatively minor incident made me aware of my incompetence
and I immediately graduated to the next level. I was now
Consciously Incompetent. I knew I did not know and I knew
I needed training. Well not everyone is as lucky as I was.
Sometimes that sudden realization that you do not know is
quickly followed by your opponents attack. And if that
attack involved lethal force, the only reason you'll
survive is because on that day, at that time, your
opponent was a bigger UI than you were. Who wants to
bet their life on those odds? I certainly did not.

(stuff deleted)

Now, once students arrive at Front Sight our next purpose
is to validate their awareness that they need and want
training and provide them with a curriculum that will
quickly bring them up to the level of Consciously
Competent because at this level they are now better than
95% of the gun owning population but must consciously
think about everything that they do with their weapon.
Further practice and training will elevate their skills
to the next level, the highest level, and those of you in
the room here who are the ultimate achievers; Front
Sight's purpose extends to assist you in reaching your
highest level of competence. That would be Unconsciously
Competent. And at this level your weapon craft
skills, your tactics, your mindset all become reflexive.
Now please realize that even at the Unconsciously
Competent level, in a real gunfight you're still only
going to be about half as good as you are in your best
day on the training range simply from the stress of someone
trying to take your life. But half as good at the
Unconsciously Competent level is miles above that UI
that you're likely to meet on the street. And that not
only ensures you'll survive; it ensures that you'll win
and that's why we're here. To make sure that our students,
should they ever need to use a weapon to defend their
lives or the lives of their loves ones, will in fact win!

Now if any of you are sitting there wondering or worrying
that we're speaking of you when we describe this UI, don't
worry. Whatever level you are presently at, I have been
there. In fact I tell the story of my first course
(at another school) to illustrate this point.

I showed up for this course as a complete novice. It
was a handgun course. I was wearing my newly purchased
and pressed desert camouflage fatigues. I had a Miami
Vice shoulder holster on, just like the one Don Johnson
wore in the television show- because up to that point
"Sonny Crockett" was my firearms training mentor. And
I had a high capacity 9mm pistol up under my arm and I
had enough magazines on my belt to last the entire first
two days of the class without even thinking about
reloading. So I was quite a sight. Then the founder
of that school walked into the classroom. There
were about 20 students in the class and he looked
at me and he said, "You, man, stand up." And I
thought, "Wow! This is going to be a great day. Here
I am, just fifteen minutes into the class and the
founder is recognizing me." The founder looked to
one of his instructors who was seated in the back of the
classroom and then he looked at me again and said,
"Take that man outside! Get him squared away." So there
I was, standing up feeling rather foolish and exited
the classroom to spend part of the morning- justifiably
so, I might add- getting squared away.

(more stuff deleted)
______________

I have thoughts on the subject (borne of watching a guy in my CCW class hit the freakin' ceiling twice on his 7-yard test and still pass), but this isn't the thread for 'em. ;-)

[KadicDeshi]

(1) not enough time/money/whatever--but this is not an answer to your question, so can be ignored

If I may?

Why is expense (or, for that matter, time) not an answer? How many times have we seen posts on 'best cheap handgun', etc. from folks who simply cannot afford Glocks, Sigs, Colts, and so on? My father is a public school teacher who has put whatever he can back into savings for college for us three kids (one of whom is still in school) or retirement. He's wanted a heavier caliber handgun than the .22 he's had for as long as I can remember but couldn't afford one...until he found a hi-point.

Frankly, the four figure numbers I've seen on some of these training sessions would make certain that he'd never even consider attending, even if he were to want to attend one. It's not an answer that the expense of this training is too much for a lower class income family to afford? For some it's not a matter of "I could take this course and the training may save my life or my family's" but "I could take this course and may lose my family's home".

I'd really like to hear your reasoning on this subject.

Thanks,
Barrett

[ChristopherG]

Huh. You make a good point, KadicDeshi. Looking back, I had to really read the original criteria tendentiously to make that statement; and then, even in the group of answers I considered relevant, I included the issue of relative value-for-time-and-money. So, point taken; money/time/resource expense is naturally a critical issue for anyone making the decision whether or not to pursue training.

You're right; most of the 'training' I'm aware of is priced well out of the reasonable reach of the lower middle class. Belonging approximately to that class myself, I can certainly say that I'd be more curious about some of the training out there if it cost a lot less.

PS: it's nice to hear that you respect your dad's hard work and sacrifice.

[KadicDeshi]

Thanks for your reply. I was a little worried that my post might be taken as mean-spirited and that wasn't what I was going for.

In regards to respecting my dad's work and sacrifice, I'm sure I haven't adequately conveyed to him just how much what he did and does means to me. I just hope that if I ever have a family I am close to as good a father as he is.

Barrett

[taliv]

...

Might start another thread on that topic, long 'bout next week or so.

pax




*twiddles thumbs*

[miconoakisland]

Pax,

What a wonderful thread! thanx!

I carry because my life may someday be in danger, that's it.
I am not a mall ninja, a super hero, a martial artist, a retired/ex military/LEO.
I am the average almost paycheck to paycheck, balding, 5'10" 160lbs, skinny nerd >40 yo that carries 18/7 in an area that if widely-known I carry, would be considered a paranoid gun freak.
I carry concealed while awake and shy away from any "gun talk" other than on the net.

I feel all I need to know is how to hit a 2'x2' target within 15'. If ever in danger, I'm gonna draw and fire at the general direction of the threat. I feel it's overkill to have pre-planned scenarios, targets beyond 5 yards, reload drills, multiple target drills, fake "what if" this happens crap.
To pay for a situational, tactical exercise by someone who may or may not know what the heck he is teaching that would probably never remotely happen to me is ludicris.

I learned all I needed in Drivers Ed to be safe, no defensive driving class, no racing, no contests. I actually learned more from driving drunk a couple decades ago than any "Petty Experience" could teach me.

I lurk everyday, many times a day, and occasionally post at THR, PDO and TFL and learn a lot everytime, but all it comes down to is drawing the worst-case scenario, SHTF, last ditch, just pull the dang trigger, panic, out-of-nowhere reaction to a situation I have absolutely no concept of or prior experience.

I know how/when to draw my weapon, fire it and hit a man-sized target w/in 10ft. I know to steer into a skid, don't over-compensate when running off the road, etc. These things aren't rocket science.

I am overly safe (to the point of being obnoxious to friends/family) and always aware of my suroundings, almost paranoid. I don't need to pay someone needed bucks to tell me how I should deal with a random scenario that has no chance of happening.

Shooting skill classes are like driving skill classes in that they instill a false sense of competence in a safe unrealistic environment that could lead to tragedy in the real world.

I know enough not to be confused when it counts.

[GEM]

Price issues:

Is $350 for two days a disqualifier to many? One has to save to get a $350 gun.

There are even less inexpensive local options in many places.

[KadicDeshi]

Is $350 for two days a disqualifier to many? One has to save to get a $350 gun.

True. However, how many of us miss pay on two days of work and have travel expenses (for those without a local option) tacked on to the $350 pricetag for a pistol?

Barrett

Edit: Just so everyone knows, I'm not claiming to be too poor for training. If I were a little more disciplined on my saving, I could probably afford it. But I remember being on the reduced lunch program in grade school while my father was in college. I remember how my parents scrimped and saved for every penny. So I have a little sympathy for folks in similar situations.

[GEM]

I have total sympathy for those who can't afford things. I've been there and so has my family.

Finances are a realistic concern. I know quite a few well off fellows who buy guns galore and have NO training. They do think they are 'warriors' though.

[RandyC]

Quite frankly, I cheat. I have a couple of shooting buddies who have taken, and continue to take extensive firearms courses and thankfully share their knowledge.

I am a student, and plan to always be a student, of defensive shooting. I read, listen, learn and practise -- certainly not as much as some here, but I try to get in my range time once a week.

Life is a series of trade-offs and conflicting priorities for one's time. I'm just thankful for the expertise I can draw from on forums such as this.

[Blackhawk 6]

I do not fit Pax's criteria so I will not share my thoughts on the need for training.

With regard to those who can not afford training, most instructors allow the organizer of a course to attend for free. That is, if you contact the instructor, arrange the use of the facilities and get ten or so people from your area to sign up, you train for free.

There is certainly a bit of work involved, but where there is a will, there is a way.

[springmom]

Pax, it's all about money for me.

Also, frankly, there is no way to know whether the training is going to be any good, even if someone else who took the class thought it was good for THEM.

If we could watch the class being given, and then decide whether to pay for it or not, I'd try a few out. Unfortunately, in the real world, that means most people would think they got enough out of the preview and never take the class.

But buying an EXPENSIVE pig in a poke is hard for us practical types to do.

$1,000.00 on a gun? Hey, I've got a thousand dollar gun for my money. A thousand dollar gun course? I may not have ANYTHING for my money. And until I've spent the thousand (which I do not have) I will never know if it would have been worth it to me, or not.

That pretty much says it. We have spent a couple of thousand on guns over the last year or two, but that took us from one .22 Sig Trailside and one 12 gauge to, well, pretty much enough guns for starters ;) Besides, what I'd like is some one-on-one coaching FIRST; then get training on shooting in other than gun range settings with the restrictions therein (no rapid fire, no double taps, no drawing from a holster , no no no no no...).

Springmom, wondering if you're thinking of putting together a class?

[El Tejon]

I have no need for training as I have purchased a pistol and thus automatically know what I am doing.:)

[GEM]

Around here you can get a half day Basic pistol I and II for $60 a class and a nice two day weekend tactical class for $240.

My 'warrior friends' with tons of guns haven't even done the basic class.

[Rumble]

...I have taken more training than is required for my CCW, but that's because in Pennsylvania, there is no training requirement. You just need to ask for a CCW. I think they come in cereal boxes now :D

However, that said, I have no advanced training in tactics or combat handgunnery. I would like to, but there are a few things that complicate the matter. I have 2 kids; I have insufficient money to attend most of the schools that I have seen recommended; I am worried about the "pig in a poke" problem; and I have (rightly or wrongly) the image of a bunch of lean, mean ex-SEALS touting the Warrior Mindset(TM) and so forth. I'm not a warrior. I'm just some guy.

On the upside, my job (academia) gives me summers off, so time is not as much of an issue. My soon-to-be-wife is a gun aficionado herself (in fact, she introduced me to the world of firearms) and would love to do the training with me, so familiy buy-in isn't the issue. It's money, logistics, and the non-transparency of the schools, more than anything: desire isn't the issue. Execution is.

[pax]

Bumping this six-month-old thread to the top to post a link to an article I wrote based on what y'all (and others) said.

http://www.corneredcat.com/LearningMore/WhyNotClass.htm

pax

[Legionnaire]

I was wondering what became of that thread. Good article (and website). Thanks for the link!

[BullfrogKen]

Good article. I remember this thread.

At the time, you didn't want particularly experienced or trained practitioners to respond.

I just took a basic level handgun course from FRI the other weekend. Present were another NTI team member, a young man enrolled in a local college's crim. j. curriculum, and two middle aged men who I do not believe had prior classes. A lady, and former FRI student, showed up for day 2 and 3.

Being a team member and living 2 miles from our range, I get the opportunity to train once a month with the other team members. However, I consider this art a study, myself a perpetual student, and felt I could benefit from a basic course. I did. I discovered a few enlightening things about myself.


I do get turned off by anyone that feels they are a master, or possesses the answer. Some folks are looking for a jedi to give them answers and tricks. Many instructors portray themselves as accomplished warriors, by listing credentials we all believe makes someone a warrior, in an effort to attract these apprentices. I'm not convinced SEAL, Marine, Special Forces, SWAT, etc. training is particularly relevant to the armed citizen.


I believe that schools which seek to offer this experience as selling points end up selecting certain clients, and deselecting others, as they evaluate the potential experience in their minds. I saw that theme in the responses from folks who didn't want to spend a weekend with para-military "hard-ass" types. Who can blame them for thinking that's what fills the classes when schools market themselves that way?


I hope to always be better than I was yesterday, but not as good as I could be tomorrow. I am unimpressed with hubrus. And the more I learn, the more I realize I will always be a student, never a master. Attitude matters to me, and the most skilled in this art after years of study and real world experience that remained approachable, personable teachers never claimed the title of master.


The process of selecting a good school is difficult, and probably rates a thread of its very own. But, the idea that we can teach ourselves, is a bit . . . ambitious.