[P95Carry]

Many folks will have seen this during the thread Bobo had running a while back. The chart has inevitably been a ''work in progress'' as small changes have been made/added.

The latest version is kindly being hosted by Marshall at Mouseguns.com and Bobo hopes that any updates will be reflected there as and when they may occur. The links are -

Pocket Auto Size Comparison JPG (240k) (http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.jpg)

Pocket Auto Size Comparison PDF (500k) (http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf)

Thx Bobo for all the considerable work you have put into this.:)

[kidcoltoutlaw]

nice work

[otomik]

dp

[otomik]

you need to recheck those weights to make sure they're with empty magazine, just noticing it's off on the P-3AT (you also need to show the different stats of the 1st and 2nd gen P-3AT which are CNCed differently).

also if you could tell the user what grain of bullet the statistics are using, I'm sure some manufacturers would supply information using 90-grain 9mm bullets or never loading the chamber (the chart never says if it's loaded chamber)

maybe we could have some more information on how to compare these with the ubiquitous snubbie. perhaps give the cartridge weight in grains for common defensive snub loads in .357, .38 Special, .32 H&R, .22Mag that way people could come up with a fairly accurate carry weight for any of the hundreds of j-frame type revolvers out there.

nice work, very illuminating seeing it all scaled to each other with the hand illustration.

[BevrFevr]

some of those are pretty small too.

[otomik]

the CZ Rami and subcompact Glocks are over 6'' in length, the focus is "pocket" autos.

[BillinNH]

Aren't there any weeny 45s that meet the size ctriteria, such as the Para-Ord Wart hawg, etc.? Maybe they are too long.

Bill

[otomik]

Aren't there any weeny 45s that meet the size Hriteria, such as the Para-Ord Wart hawg, etc.?no, none. and I think it was meant to be narrow in scope, which is why .22 and .25 are out as well because they were the classic "compromise too much pocket pistols" and it's meant to focus more on the new generation of low compromise pistols. give it a moment and it becomes aparent that .32s-.40s in this size are a recent phenomena.

P.S. the size criteria is "under 6 inches", the Taurus Millenium Pro .45 comes close at an advertised 6 inches in length

[Bobo]

you need to recheck those weights to make sure they're with empty magazine, just noticing it's off on the P-3AT (you also need to show the different stats of the 1st and 2nd gen P-3AT which are CNCed differently).The stats are for the second generation model, because this is mostly what is available NIB now. The only even slightly significant difference in stats between the first generation (FG) and second generation models (SG) is about 0.20 oz. in additional weight for the SG. The photo is of a FG, but the left side of both models is so similar that I believe it's a very good portrayal, even so, the next time I update the chart I'll change it to a SG photo.

also if you could tell the user what grain of bullet the statistics are using, I'm sure some manufacturers would supply information using 90-grain 9mm bullets or never loading the chamber (the chart never says if it's loaded chamber)The grain size was "average" for the caliber. The difference in total weight due to grain size would be so slight, most people could not tell the difference for "pocket" carry purposes. All Fully Loaded weights include one in the chamber. I'll add that to the notes for the next update also.

maybe we could have some more information on how to compare these with the ubiquitous snubbie. perhaps give the cartridge weight in grains for common defensive snub loads in .357, .38 Special, .32 H&R, .22Mag that way people could come up with a fairly accurate carry weight for any of the hundreds of j-frame type revolvers out there.Don't think I'll go there. I just threw the snubbie in for size comparison not so much weight. Many of the new snubbies are very light, but they are much larger in size than most people realize.

nice work, very illuminating seeing it all scaled to each other with the hand illustration.Thanks for kudos and thanks for the suggestions.:)

[Bobo]

no, none. and I think it was meant to be narrow in scope, which is why .22 and .25 are out as well because they were the classic "compromise too much pocket pistols" and it's meant to focus more on the new generation of low compromise pistols. give it a moment and it becomes aparent that .32s-.40s in this size are a recent phenomena.You are quite correct. When I started the chart I was looking for the best pocket auto for me, personally. I had ruled out anything less than .32. Later, I actually decided the .32 was too small for my purposes but I opted to leave them in anyway, since I had already done the research.

P.S. the size criteria is "under 6 inches", the Taurus Millenium Pro .45 comes close at an advertised 6 inches in lengthCorrect again. I also had to put a limit somewhere on overall size. For my purposes, less than 6" was a good limit. Some of the slightly larger pistols such as the Taurus Millenium Pro series the Para Warthog series that BillH mentioned, the Springfield XD series, and the smaller Glocks among others, might fit larger front pockets, but in addition they are also generally wider and heavier. This makes them a bit too much for comfortable pocket carry in my opinion.

I had to be very careful how the limits were set for the chart because it could suddenly grow into a book if the limits were too inclusive. As an example, I had thought about adding revolvers with the same criteria (.32 or larger and less than 6") to the chart, but this would mean including hundreds of additional guns.

I'll put out the same offer I've put out a few times before (and had no takers)...
If somebody would like to take on a similar project, do the research for the stats and find good photos, I'll be glad to put all the stats and photos into a chart. You can PM me on this forum and we can get started any time.

Any takers?:)

[jferrell54]

I have at times carried my Glock 33 in the front pocket but it is heavy. I also have a Kel-Tec P11 that is perfect for front pocket carry. I polished up the P-11 and it works great, it never malfunctioned even before the polishing. I know there are those that don't like Kel-Tec's but I like mine a lot.

[Zerstoerer]

Bobo,
you should get some sort of Nobel prize for your work.
Very nicely done. How about another chart for the next size guns like Kahrs, Glocks and other chopped up compacts?
Also, since all manufacturers cheat when advertising weights (who carries an empty gun around) I suggest some kind of realistic standard like "Weight fully loaded".

[elmo18b]

I found this chart very helpful for myself and my wife. I am in the military and when we went to buy her a handgun I realized that I knew nothing of the pocket pistols. The first pistol that we tried was the XD subcompact and it was alas too large. I can not in good faith go with anything less that .40 for her and the chart really helped me look size wise.

[Bobo]

Bobo,
you should get some sort of Nobel prize for your work.
Very nicely done. How about another chart for the next size guns like Kahrs, Glocks and other chopped up compacts?
Also, since all manufacturers cheat when advertising weights (who carries an empty gun around) I suggest some kind of realistic standard like "Weight fully loaded".Thanks for the thanks!
As far as another chart goes - see my offer above.;)
I totally agree with you on the weight issue. That's not the only thing manufacturers are not consistent or accurate with. One example, in Kahr's advertising they give OAL which most people would think meant OverAll Length, but the number they give is slide length only, not overall length. Others don't include small protrusions such as safety switches, slide lock switches, magazine catches, grips, or sights in their measurements.

Something like this is what I would propose as a Measurements Standard:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a34/r_oremland/Self-Defense/MeasurementStandard.jpg

[Zerstoerer]

Bobo,

again excellent advice.
I always measured my handguns by your "box" standard. Even a empty magazine will affect the numbers. On my HK USP the mag will portude about 2mm more if the mag is loaded. That together with the weight increase should be reflected. My IMI "Baby" Eagle with 16 rds of 124gr. 9mm becomes a brick.

We need some new standard like SAAMI for size and weight - just wonder how to go about that - maybe suggest it to those manufacturers who would most benefit form it - N.A.A. or Keltec?

[zahc]

There is an error in the Kahr .40 entry, width seems to be missing.

[Bobo]

There is an error in the Kahr .40 entry, width seems to be missing.Thanks zahc. Good catch! It will be in the next update.

[Geno]

I am currently having this very problem...which to buy? What are the comparisons? I have all of the BIG guns with massive loads that I will ever need.

What I now need is the small, in-pocket type pistol for summer use and back-up. Thank-you so much!

Doc2005

[Bobo]

I am currently having this very problem...which to buy? What are the comparisons? I have all of the BIG guns with massive loads that I will ever need.

What I now need is the small, in-pocket type pistol for summer use and back-up. Thank-you so much!

Doc2005You're welcome. I started the chart when I was comparing pocket pistols for my own use. I finally ended up with a Kel-Tec P-3AT. I added a laser sight and widened the grip. Now it's just about perfect for my intended purposes.

Good luck on your search. Hope the chart makes it easier.

[Geno]

I have been looking very long and hard, serious pondering of size, quality, reliability, power, etc. Your posting clarified nearly everything that I lacked to be able to make an "informed decision".

Last week, I bought my honkin' Springfield XD-45 ACP, massive chunk of whoop-butt! But, that is NOT a summer gun, nor are my 1911s. I needed something manageable. Today, I finally nailed the decision down to a NAA .380 or a Kel Tec .380. When I picked up the NAA and saw that the frame said Kel Tek, I KNEW that I would have to buy the little 8 Oz. wonder! So, I did. It shoots awesome, accurate enough, and especially with the Win. Ranger 95 Gr. loaded hollow points, I am certain it will suffice!

Thank-you for your assistance. For next month I am considering either the the Cobra .380 ACP or the NAA .380! Does anyone have any suggestions? All feedback regarding either the Cobra or the Kel Tek will be appreciated, opinion or facts. Thanks again Bobo, and all others who help make this post such a wonderful contribution!

Greatly appreciative,

Doc2005

[Bobo]

I have been looking very long and hard, serious pondering of size, quality, reliability, power, etc. Your posting clarified nearly everything that I lacked to be able to make an "informed decision".

Last week, I bought my honkin' Springfield XD-45 ACP, massive chunk of whoop-butt! But, that is NOT a summer gun, nor are my 1911s. I needed something manageable. Today, I finally nailed the decision down to a NAA .380 or a Kel Tec .380. When I picked up the NAA and saw that the frame said Kel Tek, I KNEW that I would have to buy the little 8 Oz. wonder! So, I did. It shoots awesome, accurate enough, and especially with the Win. Ranger 95 Gr. loaded hollow points, I am certain it will suffice!

Thank-you for your assistance. For next month I am considering either the the Cobra .380 ACP or the NAA .380! Does anyone have any suggestions? All feedback regarding either the Cobra or the Kel Tek will be appreciated, opinion or facts. Thanks again Bobo, and all others who help make this post such a wonderful contribution!

Greatly appreciative,

Doc2005Thanks for the thanks! Congrats on your new acquisitions.

I like the NAAs both the .380 and the .32NAA. They were a bit heavy for my purposes, but they are very nicely made. The triggers are a bit heavy also. And I could almost get two Kel-Tecs for the price of one NAA.

That's why I went with the Kel-Tec P-3AT.

My local gun shop got some Cobras in a couple of weeks ago. I was kind of interested because they are so inexpensive. They are very heavy and clunky feeling. The trigger is way to close to the grip for me. I think you would need to have a small hand with short fingers to shoot it even close to comfortably. Might be an OK glove box gun - if it gets stolen you're not out much.

[Zen21Tao]

Aren't there any weeny 45s that meet the size Hriteria, such as the Para-Ord Wart hawg, etc.? Maybe they are too long.

Bill

They appear to have overlooked my .45 ACP AMT Backup. It is 5.7" long, 4.1" in height, and only 1" wide in the grip and slightly less than 1" in the slide width. Compare that to the sizes 9mms, .40 s&w, and .38 special pictured.

[Bobo]

They appear to have overlooked my .45 ACP AMT Backup. It is 5.7" long, 4.1" in height, and only 1" wide in the grip and slightly less than 1" in the slide width. Compare that to the sizes 9mms, .40 s&w, and .38 special pictured.I tried to get info on these guns from the supplier.

This was the communication:

----- Original Message -----
From: "xxxxxxxxxx" <xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <info@highstandard.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: AMT Information

I would like information on your AMT series of handguns. Photos, specifications, availability, etc.

Thank you,
xxxxxxxxxxxxx


call us @ 800-272-7816- thanks- HS

======================================
I thought this was a very terse and unprofessional response.
Why is there so little info on their web site? www.highstandard.com They have prices but no photos or specifications.
Doesn't seem like they are very interested in selling or servicing these guns.
If they are so disinterested in the guns, why would I or anybody else be interested?
I do not want to spend the time to deal with them in order to add the gun to the chart.
If you or anyone else would like to supply all the pertinent info and photos for any of these guns and forward it to me, I would be happy to include them in the chart.

I will need:
-----------------
Gun Name
Frame: (materials)
MSRP: ($xxx)
Operation: (DA, DAO, SA, etc.)
Capacity: (example: 6 +1)
Overall Length: x.x”
Overall Height with standard mag inserted: x.x”
Overall Width: x.xx”
Weight Empty (includes empty mag): xx.x oz.
Weight Fully Loaded (filled mag and one in the chamber, any functional ammo in the proper size is OK): xx oz.
A good profile photo (left side preferred - right side is OK)

I can be PM'd on this forum.

Bobo

[BillinNH]

It may be that 45s are deliberately left out of the survey as being too big a caliber to include with the others, If so, OK by me. If not, the Cobra Patriot 45 meets the dimensional criteria and is a helluva fine concealed carry 45. One of my favorites. As to the other Cobra designs, they have a different genetic history and I am not directly familiar with them although they seem to have originally been inspired by the Kel-Tec P-11, a gun I am a big fan of.

Bill

[Bobo]

It may be that 45s are deliberately left out of the survey as being too big a caliber to include with the others, If so, OK by me. If not, the Cobra Patriot 45 meets the dimensional criteria and is a helluva fine concealed carry 45. One of my favorites. As to the other Cobra designs, they have a different genetic history and I am not directly familiar with them although they seem to have originally been inspired by the Kel-Tec P-11, a gun I am a big fan of.

BillNo BillinNH, there is no upper limit on caliber size.

The criteria is:
Pocket Semi-Automatic Handguns
Overall Length of Less Than Six Inches - .32 ACP or Larger

The reason the Cobra Patriot is not included is because it is 6" long. There are other guns that are exactly 6" long and were left off also.

Just missed the cut, but had to draw a line somewhere.

Bobo

[BillinNH]

No BillinNH, there is no upper limit on caliber size.

The criteria is:
Pocket Semi-Automatic Handguns
Overall Length of Less Than Six Inches - .32 ACP or Larger

The reason the Cobra Patriot is not included is because it is 6" long. There are other guns that are exactly 6" long and were left off also.

Just missed the cut, but had to draw a line somewhere.

Bobo


Thanks, Bobo, for the clarification and for the great survey.

Bill

[otomik]

please put the Kel-Tec PF-9 up on the big board as soon as is convenient.
http://www.kel-tec.com/pf9pr.htm

[sheep]

That's definitely something that needs to find it's way onto other gun forums. Now we just need a revised image that only contains the ones worth buying!

[DaleJunior]

on paper at least, it seems the pf-9 does not offer a significant enough size advantage over the p-11, particularly when p-11's can be fitted with 12 rnd mags. i guess time will tell.

[Bobo]

DaleJunior said:
on paper at least, it seems the pf-9 does not offer a significant enough size advantage over the p-11, particularly when p-11's can be fitted with 12 rnd mags. i guess time will tell.

The P-11 is a double stack design, while the PF-9 is a single stack.
As far as size goes, the main difference is in the thickness (width).
This can be of considerable importance to many people for true pocket carry, and even IWB carry.

But as you said, "Time will tell".

[bubbygator]

From the Skyy forum:

That brings us to the new Skyy MPX-9
Length = 5.3 0.1 longer than Rohrbaugh
Height = 3.65 0.05 shorter than Rohrbaugh
Width = .80 0.11 narrower than Rohrbaugh - THIS IS MAJOR!!
Weight = 12oz 1.3 oz lighter than Rohrbaugh

........ only thing is - no pic available yet.

[Bobo]

bubbygator said,

That brings us to the new Skyy MPX-9
Length = 5.3 0.1 longer than Rohrbaugh
Height = 3.65 0.05 shorter than Rohrbaugh
Width = .80 0.11 narrower than Rohrbaugh - THIS IS MAJOR!!
Weight = 12oz 1.3 oz lighter than Rohrbaugh

........ only thing is - no pic available yet.

Those specs. sound very good.
If Skyy can pull it off, keep the price under $300, and its reliable I'll be amazed.
I'll believe it when I see it!

[woodswalker]

Have you researched the trigger weight and or the length of trigger pull? I personally carry the GLOCK 23. I prefer DAO but find the trigger pulls of some pocket guns to feel like they are 3 miles long (affecting accuracy :eek: ) Could you update the chart accordingly?

THX

[Bobo]

woodswalker said,

Have you researched the trigger weight and or the length of trigger pull? I personally carry the GLOCK 23. I prefer DAO but find the trigger pulls of some pocket guns to feel like they are 3 miles long (affecting accuracy ) Could you update the chart accordingly?

No I haven't researched it, but if you (or anyone else) wants to do it for all the guns on the chart I'll be happy to add the additional information.

Just post it or PM me here.

[ShootingEnthusiatist]

Great job putting the facts and figures together. I'm always interested in CCW weapons, dimensions, effectiveness, etc. Living in Florida it's hard to find the perfect year-round CCW (Glock 19 at the moment). It's nice to see them all together like that!

[blume357@bellsouth.net]

but... Walther PPK?

[Bobo]

blume357@bellsouth.net,

Thanks for the thanks.

What do you mean by:
"but... Walther PPK?"
I don't understand.

[otomik]

i'm guessing his comments are something along the lines of...

poster: how about putting the PPK up there, because it's so cool
me: yes, but it's outside the parameters of the comparison chart (too big)
poster: but it's cool
me: yes it is, now before someone brings up the classic shortcomings of the PPK and gets into a heated debate, let's just agree it's a classy gun that doesn't quite fit into the "new generation of low-compromise pocket pistols" concept of the chart.

[Socrates]

Well, I've done this dance for awhile. In the People's Republic of **********, soon to be the next state of Mexico, we are not allowed to carry most of these guns, or any guns, in about half the state. So, criteria for concealed carry is it has to be DEEP carry, and, when that's the case, weight becomes as important as size.
I have three in this category:
First, Beretta 950 Short. Inadequate caliber, but it goes bang, quickly, it's accurate, and reliable, and, smallest by far of the bunch, we can get here, no Kel-tecs allowed. The Beretta being DA/SA, in SA mode, has an EXCELLENT trigger, and for a point and shoot, that REALLY helps you hit your target.
Second: Kimber Ultra Carry II. After about 300 bucks extra, this is a gun I can conceal in a couple places, but, it requires hefty straps, since at 25 or so ounces, it's noticeably heavier then my other carry guns. It is the most accurate, so far, will shoot limited amounts of .45 Super, thanks to my fantastic gunsmith, and, 230 grain ball all day long. It's got an excellent, maybe 3 pound trigger, as well.

Third is your snubby, the 360PD, S&W. At it's super light weight, 12 oz, .357 magnum is out of the question. Extreme pain comes to mind.
After shooting a .475 Linebaugh, with 400 grain bullets, at 1300 fps, I put a Corbon full house 125 grain @ 1400 fps down range out of the little gun.
OUCH! I put the gun down, emptied the cylinder, and went back to shooting .38's. With Corbon's Plus P 125 grain HP, or their DPX line, you get nearly magnum velocity out of a .38 snub nose, around 1150 fps, with a 2 inch, and, it's easy to shoot. I think these guns need bobbed hammers, maybe, we shall see, filled in, wood grips, to give you something to hold onto, and an action trigger job to smooth out, and lighten the DA pull.
That, finally, is my complaint on most of these DA guns. Trigger pull means accuracy, and you don't want to end up like the miracle guy in Pulp Fiction,
splattered on the wall because your DA trigger pull made you pull all your shots off target, missing the bad guys.:D

That's my two 'sense' on the subject. Finally, my ideal gun for concealed carry is either a Detonics CombatMaster, which comes close to your specs, as the most compact of .45s, but, it's heavy. If you can use a holster, or shoulder rig, it's great. Shoot it all day, super accurate, and will take HEAVY loads, thanks to all stainless construction, for years.
Second would be bigger, the S&W 1911 SC commander size. It weighs the same as some of the guns you list, will be FAR more reliable then any, and, have a fantastic trigger pull, with all quality parts.

That said, I commend you on your size comparision, and, only can comment that a weight chart might be the next step.;)

Thanks Bobo

Sincerely

S

[Bobo]

Socrates,

I feel for your pain. Things in CA are eroding quickly (in many ways). You might be better served to escape to a more supportive and less expensive place to live.

Thanks for the information on your personal choices of handguns considering your limited options.

What did you mean by, "a weight chart might be the next step"? Something in addition to the Empty and Fully Loaded weights that are now given?

[warmrain]

It would be interesting to see the baby Browning (or PSA-25) on there too.

[Bobo]

warmrain,

I believe that the Baby Browning is not currently in production.
If I am wrong and you can point me to a picture of it that I can use and the all the necessary specifications I'll gladly add it.

[warmrain]

It is currently in production by a licensed builder called Precision Small Arms. I own one of their PSA-25s and I can tell you that it is an absolutely perfect and faithfull reproduction. I have used their parts on true Le' bebe' a also fitted true Baby parts to the PSA.

In fact if it weren't for parts from PSA the real deal would not be a working example...

I also have a Bauer 25 that can be fitted with true Browning or PSA parts. I thing all the licenced copies are that close...

Checkout http://precisionsmallarms.com

It would be neat to see the PSA-25 covered with the other 25 mouseguns...

[warmrain]

Browning made a light weight version that was a Rolls Royce aircraft engine alloy frame and nickle plated slide. It had a gold plated trigger and is also currently in production by PSA as the Featherweight, it is just 7.25 ounces.

Weight: 275 grams (9.7ounces)
(light weight version 7.25 ounces)
Height: 72 mm (2.8 inches)
Length: 104mm (4.09 inches)
Barrel: 53.6 mm (2.1 inches)
Magazine Capacity: 6

Description from the PSA site:
Le Bébé is a single action, semi-automatic, self-loading, blow-back mechanism manufactured of all steel alloy components. It is striker fired and utilizes a smooth faced, single stage draw bar trigger with pull weight of 5.25 lbs. It can hold six rounds in its magazine and one chambered. Le Bébé's barrel is 2.13 inches long, has 6 lands and grooves and is right-hand twisted with a radius of 3.54 inches. Le Bébé is 4.11 inches long, stands 2.88 inches tall and is .88 inches thick. Depending on model, it weighs between 7.25 and 9.70 ounces, unloaded. Outfitted with a manual frame-mounted safety mechanism, magazine dis-connect device and cocking indicator, Le Bébé is produced in eight versions ranging from the well known "Traditional" to the highly coveted "Impériale".

[Bobo]

warmrain,

Went to the site and bookmarked it. Very nice pistols for a reasonable price.
The Featherweight especially seems like it would be a great anytime/anywhere carry gun.
Unfortunately they only come in .25 - too small for the chart.:(
If I added the PSA .25's I'd have to add all the other .25's also -- don't want to go there. Too bad they don't make at least a .32.

Thanks for the info and your interest,
Bobo

[warmrain]

I completely overlooked that you had limited the chart to > .25 caliber. Probably all you could do in order to keep it reasonable.

Are you the administrator or creator of www.mouseguns.com?

If you are associated with the site, how about adding a link to the PSA site? They have a nice product... I love mine.

[Bobo]

warmrain,

No I am not the owner/administrator of mouseguns.com. That would be "marshall" another member here on THR -- http://www.thehighroad.org./member.php?u=1136

He has been kindly and generously storing the chart and its ocassional updates on his server.

Bobo

[warmrain]

I missed it the first time, but I see there is a link to the PSA site on mouseguns.com.

[Rabbi]

Brother Bobo,

Thank you in spades for the wonderful service you have done for the members here.

Wow, what a job!

Best regards,

Rabbi

[Bobo]

Rabbi,

Thanks for the thanks, it's my pleasure!

Bobo

[tegemu]

I commend you for a job very well done. May I suggest that you include the 3", Officers size .45 ACP. My Kimber Ultra carry II is almost exactjy the same size as my Skyy CPX-1 and my Charter Undercover .38 Cal Snubby. I carry the Kimber as a pocket gun much of the time. Thanx for your work.

[Bobo]

tegemu,

Thanks for the kind words.

The Kimber pistol you refer to is a beauty! Unfortunately, it is too large to be included in the chart. I went to the Kimber web site and couldn't find any Kimber model that would fit within the parameters of the chart.

The specifications on the Kimber web site for the UltaCarry II you mentioned are:

Specifications: Height (inches) 90° to barrel: 4.75
Weight (ounces) with empty magazine: 25
Length (inches): 6.8
Magazine capacity: 7
Recoil spring (pounds): 18

You will note that the length is 6.8". The chart has guns less than 6" only.
I might add that there are a few guns that are exactly six inches in length, and those are not included in the chart either - I had put in a cut-off somewhere.

Bobo

[Czechollector]

Could you add the FEG SMC pocket pistols? There are two different versions. One chambered for the .380 and one for the 9mm Mak.
These are really nice CCW pistols.

RC

[Bobo]

Czechollector,

I did a Google search on "FEG SMC" and didn't get much usable information.

Is there a manufacturer or distributor web site? Can you get me a good side view photo and all of the relevant specifications or point me to this information? They guns must also fit within the chart's parameters, and are presently being manufactured.

Bobo

[tegemu]

Thanx for the info Bobo!!

[GunLover30]

Hey everyone, I'm Josh & I'm 30 yrs old. I just bought my mother a Bersa Thunder 380 for Christmas as a carry gun cuz she just got her concealed weapons permit. I wanted to buy a couple extra mags for her but they were sold out so I was wondering if any of you know where I could go to find mags for the Bersa Thunder?

[GunLover30]

If anybody knows of a place to find Bersa Thunder 380 mags, my email is TrueSteelerfan27@yahoo.com Thank you

[Bobo]

Bersa Mags here:
http://www.bersafirearmsusa.com/parts_380lt_sat.php

[kidcoltoutlaw]

www.cdnninvestments.com they have guns to but to see them you must download the catalog,

Thanks,Keith

[dm5643]

any thoughts on a fair price for a sig 220, nickel slide, night sights hogue grip. its in great shape, slight holster wear.


Please post this question in autoloaders forum - it is not relevant to this thread topic

[USGuns]

Hi Bobo,
Thank you for this chart! Excellent work and I'm sure it consumed a lot of your valuable time.

Suggestion: To limit the size of the chart and make room for future expandability, perhaps you could limit it to only firearms that are still currently being manufactured and those which are not "junk" guns (for lack of a better definition). I realize the second part is totally subjective and you would obviously be the one to make the final call (it's your chart!) but IMHO, you could eliminate Cobra and Jiminez.
I.e. then when the new Skyy micros come out in the next few months, you would have room for them.

Just a thought.

[Bobo]

USGuns,

Thanks for the thanks, and thanks for the suggestions!

Bobo

[VA27]

The chart is great! It really makes it easy to 'visualize' before a new gun purchase.

If you ever get the chance, I think a Semmerling LM4 would be a nice addition. If for no other reason than to show folks how far the pocket pistol has come (it's a 70's design)...and how far it has to go! (The specs are almost identical to the Rohrbach, but it's 45ACP!)

[tostada]

Those Kel-Tec widths sure do seem inflated. The slide/grip isn't nearly that wide. I guess you're measuring the max width + the width of the mag release? If you're going to use those kinds of methods, you should probably include a separate number for slide/grip width vs. the mag release width.

Not being fussy. I'm just saying, for example, showing the P-11 as 1.3" wide when the slide is 1.0" wide just doesn't give an accurate idea of the size. Most people would look at that and think a P-11 is wider than a Glock 26. I mean, the ridiculously thick Glock 45 ACPs are listed as 1.27" wide, and you're showing the P-11 as 1.3"

Or at least just make it clear that your width figure is NOT the slide width.

[Bobo]

tostada,

What you say about more accurate and consistant measurements is correct.

I believe all measurements should be made the same way as I stated in post #14 of this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org./showpost.php?p=2179905&postcount=14
Then we would not be comparing "apples and oranges".

All the sizes on the chart are as given by the manufacturer. Some manufacturers may include all protuberances and some may not. Unfortunatelly, I don't have any way to actually measure all the guns myself so I have to use the manufacturers information.

I can't say for sure how each particular manufacturer measured their guns. So I can't even make a general disclaimer as to slide width as you suggested.

Bobo

[tostada]

All the sizes on the chart are as given by the manufacturer.

Kel-Tec P-11
Overall Length: 5.6" from kel-tec.com, your chart says 5.9"
Height: 4.3" from kel-tec.com, your chart says 4.4"
Width: 1" from kel-tec.com, your chart says 1.30"

Kel-Tec PF-9
Overall Length: 5.85" from kel-tec.com, your chart says 5.9"
Height: 4.3" from kel-tec.com, your chart says 4.4"
Width: 0.88" from kel-tec.com, your chart says 0.98"

[marshall3]

I measured my P-11, and Bobo's measurements are right.
Marshall
www.mouseguns.com

[Bobo]

Marshall,

Thanks for clearing up the difference in manufacturer's specifications and my chart information.

In my last answer to tostada I said that all my information came from manufacturers. That was a misstatement, I actually got my information from manufacturers AND owners, as is stated in note #1 in my chart.

I don't recall who gave me the correct numbers for the P-11 (it may have been you, Marshall). I do remember one owner that gave me the correct numbers for the Kahr guns. The overall lengths that Kahr had were totally wrong. It was not Overall Length as they stated it was only the Slide Length on their web site and in their catalog.

I know that the listed length for the PF-9 that was originally listed on the Kel-Tec site was wrong and someone gave me the correct number for that also.

The bottom line is - the numbers on the chart are very accurate for overall size and weight.

I have been trying to keep up on the pricing also, but that is tough to do. I would have to constantly check all the manufacturers web sites, and hope they are up to date (which they usually aren't), or constantly e-mail them for pricing up dates, which I am not inclined to take the time to do.

I would certainly appreciate any new or better information including pricing that anyone wishes to share so I can keep the chart as accurate and current as possible.


On this same vein, I found out recently that High Standard who produces the AMT .45 Backup that I show on the chart now has many more calibers available for the AMT Backup. Their site information is incomplete for the information I would need for my chart. So I e-mailed them a couple of times and they provided me with some additional information but not everything I need. I e-mailed one more time on 3/5/07 asking them to fill in the blanks, but so far they have not replied. I would really like to add these guns because they have a couple of them in unusual calibers (.380 Super and Cor-Bon 400).

I'm not sure if adding these guns would be a service or a disservice to those who view the chart. If High Standard's quality and speed of response to my e-mails and the inconsistency and missing information on their web site were an indication of the quality of their products and customer service, I for one would think twice about buying their products. Even so, just to make the chart as complete as possible I would like to add the complete AMT Backup line.

Bobo

[USGuns]

Hi Bobo,
I know you're challenged on your chart for space but another revolver that might be interesting to put on there for size-comparison reference would be one of the NAA mini-revolvers ... those things are tiny!
:what:

[Bobo]

USGuns,

Those NAA Minis are really cute guns, but if you a want real contrast in size try this...:D

http://www.swissminigun.com/gallery_steel.html


Bobo

[USGuns]

I've seen that swiss mini-revolver ... now THAT is small! :eek:
But I wonder what the penetration of it's ammo would be? ;)

[Tinmancr]

are these miniature pistols even legal I was under the impression they were not.
saturday night specials derringers and the insanely small autos.
snubbies are just short barrel really and generally less a hammer, I don't see them being miniature.
I can't remember were I heard it or read it.

[Bobo]

Tinmancr,

All the guns on the chart are legal in most states, also derringers and snubbies are legal in most states.

Very few states (California and Massachusetts are two of these states) have a list of which guns are legal. Some of the guns on the chart are not legal in those states.

I don't know for sure, but I thought that just about every handgun (except full autos) were legal in Alaska.

You should always check your state and local laws just to be sure.

Bobo

[Sistema1927]

are these miniature pistols even legal I was under the impression they were not.
saturday night specials derringers and the insanely small autos.

Huh? :confused:

Why would you have a problem with any of the weapons on Bobo's chart? Do you have something against allowing citizens to carry defensive weapons that fit into their lifestyle?

I carry a Kahr PM9 (one of those "insanely" small autos) in a pocket holster every day. It allow me to exercise my right to self-defense while wearing any clothes that I desire. if I didn't have the funds to afford a Kahr, I would hope that something like a "saturday night special" would be available within my budget to allow me to do the same.

It is not the weapon, none of them are "insane".

(Oh, BTW, I like your sig.)

[blackcharlie]

thats cool

[zeroskillz]

Nice job! That obviously took alot of work to get together.

[CoRoMo]

I just want to thank Bobo for the work put into this chart. I looked it up several times while contemplating the ideal pocket pistol for CCW. I'm glad it was there as a resource tool, and I think I've made a good decision with the Kel-Tec I recently purchased. Great job!

[SgtKnuckles]

Good Chart BoBo,... I like the Loaded wt's on the chart...<:-))

[Bobo]

blackcharkie, zeroskillz, CoRoMo, and SgtKnuckles,

Thanks for the "thanks". Glad the chart helps.

Bobo

[MichaelJ07]

Nice charts! Great work! Thanks! How's about the Bersa line of handguns? Are there any that fit your criteria?

Again, nice work and appreciated very much.

[Bobo]

MichaelJ07,

Thanks for the thanks!

Unfortunately, most of the Bersas come in just over the "Less than six inches in length" limit for the chart. I had to draw a line somewhere or the chart would grow tremendously and begin to have less meaning for true "Pocket Carry".

In fact, the Bersa CC is exactly six inches in length. Not really too bad for pocket carry, but just getting a bit large and heavy. Many people pocket carry Bersas and even much larger guns, but less commonly.

Bobo

[fiVe]

Wow! This chart is very helpful.

[trackaddict88]

Bobo, I only wish I had read this sooner-Before the Glock 26. Guess I need another gun for summer anyway! Thanks!

[gym]

32ACP pistols were once used extensively by police and military in countries like Spain, Belgium, France, Finland, Germany and the USA. In WWII, American general grade officers were issued .32ACP Colt M1903 pistols for carry while a variety of pistols in .32ACP were standard fare among German soldiers. When Hitler committed suicide, it was a 7.65mm (.32ACP) PPK he chose. This now often frowned upon caliber had enough prestige to make it the preference of Ian Fleming’s James Bond, who like Hitler also favored the .32ACP PPK. As to stopping power, statistics show shot placement trumps caliber every time. It’s more conducive to good health to be shot in the foot with a .44 Magnum than in a vital zone with a .22 or .25.
There are those sold on ball ammo, claiming that ball ammunition provides better penetration while hollow points are inconsistent on expansion. Although ball does offer excellent penetration, the streamlined configuration of ball provides the smallest temporary wound cavity. Air passes over the bullet with minimal resistance and turbulence. Air is not trapped and compressed within a cup to be released on impact (hopefully with bullet expansion), as it is with hollow point ammunition, nor is it vigorously directed away from the bullet, as is the case with the outside concave surface of semi-wadcutters. Both of these round types are shown in FBI ammo tests to produce a much greater temporary wound cavity in ballistic gelatin than ball. Logically, the shock value of temporary organ displacement translates into greater stopping power. Sanow and Marshall, in their controversial study of actual shootings, have placed the 60 grain .32 Silvertip on equal par with 230 grain .45 FMJ ball for stopping power. On the face of it, the Marshall/Sanow results seem ridiculous. A .45 caliber hole produced by a 230 grain bullet would appear to be far more effective in stopping power than a puny 60 grain hollow point that may or may not expand to .45 caliber.
here is the link if anyone wants to read the article
http://www.seecamp.com/ammunition.htm

[Pa.Bill]

Outstanding Reading ---wonderful Post

[rj112275]

I can't remember where I saw this... did this chart have a j-frame on it at some point in time for comparison?

[marshall3]

Yes, the chart at one time had a J-frame revolver, for comparison with the pistol sizes. However, the number of little pistols has been growing quickly these days, and BobO is busy revising the chart. A new one will come out ASAP.

Both Ruger and Kahr are adding little .380 pistols to their line up.

[Bobo]

rj112275,

I removed it to make room for the new Ruger LCP.

I wondered at the time if I was doing this if anyone really cared about the J-frame comparison and was considering leaving it out permanently. A couple of people have asked for it back, so I will it put back in the next update.

I was trying to avoid making the chart too big so when it was printed on a standard (8-1/2 x 11) sheet of paper you could still read it easily. Due to all the new pocket guns soon to be in production I guess I'll just have to "bite the bullet" (pun intended) and grow the chart to accommodate them. When I do this I will add the J-frame back in again.

The new Taurus Slim and the Kahr .380 are supposed to be in production later this year. Once this happens I'll update the chart once more with these guns and add the J-frame back in also.

Bobo

[grampster]

How in the world have I missed this. Very good info. I've had two little Beretta Minx in .22 short. They were fun to plink with. That was years ago. I've got a Tomcat presently, but I don't like the trigger pull. Way too stiff and long on DA. Also the firing pin has a tendency to break. I think there is a P3AT in my future.

Thank's for the great chart Bobo.

[Northalius]

Very good chart, indeed!

Brace yourselves now, a Glock Kool Aid drinker ;) is going to post his opinion:

I know you limited these pistols to 6" length and under, but man, I am still curious to see the Glock 26, 27, 33 and 39 (all same size, except the 39 is a tiny bit longer) sub compacts in there!

Yes, they're 6.29" in overall length (that's not much longer than 6"), but they're only 4.17" in height, which is actually shorter than some of the .40, 9mm and .45 pistols on your chart.

Glock 26 / 27 / 33 / 39: Length: 6.29" -- Height: 4.17" -- Width: 1.18"

Kahr PM45: Length: 5.97" -- Height: 4.5" -- Width: 1.01"

Glock 26 (9mm) capacity: 10+1
Glock 27 (.40) capacity: 9+1
Glock 33 (.357) capacity: 9+1
Glock 39 (.45) capacity: 6+1

Kahr PM45 (.45) capacity: 5+1

If you'll look at the comparison picture again, you'll also see quite a few of those guns with heights over 4.2 inches.

Just get a good pocket holster, and you'll be fine with a sub compact Glock! They're easy to ankle carry, as well.

Try one out! The Glock will be much more reliable and durable than all of these other mouse guns, too; Glocks can also fire +p and +p+ ammo! ;)

[marshall3]

The GLOCK 26/27 is a very fine firearm. But, by my personal experience, it is not a "pocket gun." It is more like a "pocket brick." True, the height is short, and that's good. But it is too long, too thick, and too heavy to carry in your pocket, unless you are a really big man with really big pockets.

[Northalius]

If you look at my post again and see the length and width of the sub compact Glocks compared to the Kahr PM45... it's not much bigger.

6.29" compact to 5.97" isn't worth nitpicking over, since pockets can be up to 9" deep (mine are)!

The width of the two compared is even more pathetic to nitpick at! The 1.18" wide Glock sub compact, compared to 1.01" ? I mean, seriously, less than .18" is nothing.

A shirt covering this, and a good pocket holster, can easily do the job for the sub Glocks. People do it all the time.

The weight is nothing for me personally. :)

Some might consider only the .32's and smaller .380's to be true pocket guns; should they say the bigger 9mm, .40 and .45's on that chart aren't pocket guns then? Where as others will say they are! Then it's just a disagreement, because everyone is different, and people can get a little bigger clothing to fit a tiny bit bigger gun in their pocket.

Just my opinion. ;)

I say put a Glock 26/27/33 up there, just for comparison, at least!

[Bobo]

Northalius,

I'll answer you by referrring you to these former posts in this same thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=171820#10
http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=171820#25

BTW, check out post #83 on this page.

[Diamondback6]

Bob, if you expand it to a multiple-page chart, would you consider adding out-of-production models? It'd be interesting to see how the Colt Models M (.32/.380) and N (.25 vest-pocket), along with the "Baby Browning" and some other antiques measure up by comparison.

[Everman]

I wonder if any members here area really good with flash and would like to help create a nice interactive chart? Then it would be easy to add more guns, even larger models, without cluttering things up.

[17poundr]

Great chart! :) THANKS!

But... And there is always a but, if this width is an issue, then I think everybody should check out the STI gun site, where they have what they advertize as being the 'thinnest 1911 bodied gun in production', I seem to remember it holds about 6x.40s&w... Then there is the Springfield EMP... (pretty small).

And to be truthful even if we do not measure the Ruger that is under six inches, or exactly six inches, or the mini Beretta Storm, with a two inch barrel, which makes it one very small 9mm semi auto...

Let's be fair, those Para-ord warthogs, EMP's, Beretta's, CZrami and model 83s, Glock 26&27, and XD subcompact models are very, very, small with amazing capacity!!! The point something of an inch more that they have over the six inch mark, is way worth the 10+ ammount of 9mm parabellum (or less of larger calibers of ammo), that they tend to carry!

Who agrees? Still nice chart!!! :) Thanks!

[krs]

It's a wonderfully useful chart. Thank you very much for your work in compiling and publishing it out here for us all, Bobo. Every CCW licensee owes you a large debt of gratitude.

Why do so many people feel a need to defend THEIR choices if they don't fit onto the chart?

Carry whatever you want. Get a sweatshirt with a crosspocket, or a duckhunter's game jacket and say "Wait! Look! I can fit my XP-100 in my pocket so why isn't it on your chart?" I mean quit being so stupid please.

Tubby guns (Glock, P-11, P99, CZ83, blah,blah, blah) fit in pockets, but you can't get them out!

[17poundr]

Sorry if I came across as trying to 'push an envelope' of my liking...

I would say, that whatever the person carrying the gun is comfortable with. With the ability to shoot true with the gun.

Then it is for him/her, the best (pocket, under jeans holster, ancle holster, armpit holster, fanny pack, lady's purce, you name it)consealead carry gun!!!

I guess I came across faulted in my previous try to make this very point.


Personally, I have only got to try a CZ Rami... (or the short version of the CZ-75, I cannot remember which).

And the Makarov-9x18mm. Which I considered to be a pretty compact gun... I dont know how it's classified though... (Does anybody know if the Makarov does fit into the parameters given by bobo)?

I think that it might but the lip that protects the shooters hand from the recoil of the slide makes it too long... (please let me know of the correct terminology, as I dont know the correct names for gun parts. I dont know these in English, as all of my Gun shooting Experience has taken place in Finland, and once at a range in Latvia. Thus making my vocabulary for guns all in Finnish, sorry).

I just came upon the thought that the Makarov would be a pretty good consealed carry gun. It's small, reliable, and has more punch to it than the 9x17mm round that some compacts have as their ammo...

Do you think my way of seeing this is a, 'not really'? Or is there some idea there???

After all, as far as I understand the small compact gun, is something that will be used from close range, so great accuracy isnt a huge parameter to worry about. Having said that, probably regurlar exercise in quick draw, and double taps would be good to do... (I seem to remember that the Makarov had a very agreeable recoil and I didnt notice what kind of trigger it had, which in my case is a good thing)! :o

And if the 9x17mm is considered ok, then the makarov's 9x18 shurely will be good too...

By the way, does anybody know of expanding (HP or JHP i guess), bullets for the 9x18mm?

All that I ever saw were FMJ's...

I put some pics of Makarov's from various Eastern European countries, as you see, it's quite an attractive gun, once you get past the 'cold war hangover', as I call it... :D

Also, I found one quality holster for the Makarov (it holds about five other guns too, check it out! http://www.opticsplanet.net/bianchi-100-professional-holster-plain-tan-right-hand-19230.html )

[akodo]

Thanks for all your hard work on this. I too notice the j frame is gone, and I see you stated you removed it to fit in Ruger's new 380

I don't think most folks are printing this out, I think you are doing your project a disservice by removing guns to maintain a 1 sheet 'easy print' format. I am sure the vast majority of us pull it up on-line. Along that same line of thinking, ever consider leaviing one version in 'life size' rather than scaling it down? Scaling it to fit a page makes great sense if you were going to have this printed in a magazine, but internet age and all, leave it big

If anyhing, why not make page 1 and page 2 one for 'really small' and one for 'regular small' of course, have some crossover, the biggest 3 or so on page 1 should be included on page 2

I can definately understand you setting a size based requirement for what handguns to include, and I know that the Walther PPK is bigger than your size critera allows, but people might not realize that is why that or whatever their favorite pocket pistol is, is being left off. I'd suggest either shortening up the website links (remove the space between them, or don't bother titling them just have a list of websites) or just removing them all together (I think most of us rather than carefully typing out the exact address would just google it) and include a list of "famous pocket pistols over size limit" then rather than people wondering "why didn't he include X" would say "Wow I didn't realize that X is bigger than ALL of these other guns!"

[17poundr]

I do not wish to seem impudent, but have you measured the glock - 26, or the Beretta storm 9mm compact ? The latter has the shortest barrel I seem to have heard of in semi autos,,,?

Then there is the Springfield EMP, which bragged that never has a 1911 frame been so small... Just a thought?

You what I think is a bit weird, is that not a lot of guns with strickers made it, and I would always want to have that option, I am not a fan of DAO guns... Well if they are smithed to my requriements maybe...

Thanks anyway! great chart! I would love to see it extended to include the above mentioned, and some of the warthogs, and kimber's compact models... Also cz RAMI... and so the list goes on... :)

[357-8-times]

Awsome list! How about adding the Kel-tec P40?

[Onesiphorus]

I think Frags are under 6".

[17poundr]

Are you guys shure that this 'mini Storm' from Beretta isnt juust in the confines of those guns???

It has a 2.5 inch barrel (i'm very sorry if i got this wrong, but just look at the pic to see it's more mini than the Glock 26 ect crowd of other 9x19mm compacts...

Please correct me if I'm wrong... I think it could be very close to those dimentions, off only by fractions...
:scrutiny:
Poundr.

ps, other guns are too probably 'just over the limit', I think this Bersa looks like a good candidate, and the Kimber ultracarry has a 3inch barrel, so it cant be that large!!!

I dont mean to get anybody's blood heated, I think the chart is great. I only thought of expanding on guns that might be 'just over the limit' and thus viable options imho...

[steelyblue]

I just can't see carrying a 1911 cocked and locked in a front pocket!!! I don't care what size it is.

[17poundr]

But if you are referring to that 3inch 1911 in the post under yours, there are DAO versions of that kind too you know... :)

How does this stricke you??
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=81954&stc=1&d=1217154313

I know I wouldnt mind having it in me pocket in a dark street with dodgy looking geezers starting to walk behind me and calling out for a fight...

[Bobo]

17poundr,

I'll make a deal with you...

First define in numbers what "slightly larger" means. Then get me the photos and the specifications for all the guns still being manufactured within the "slightly larger" specifications.

With the photos and specs. you provide me I'll make up another page for those guns.

Deal?

Bobo

[17poundr]

OK, this will take a couple of days... please bare with me.

Yours enthusiastically,

Mr Poundr. :)

[Bobo]

17Poundr,

No problem whenever you have everything I'll be ready.

When you get everything if you PM me I'll give you my e-mail address so you can e-mail me the photos and specs. We will probably need to communicate more efficiently than through this forum, so e-mail might be better anyway.

Bobo

[KarenTOC]

Bobo, this is a great chart. I'm an all-around newbie (new to guns, shooting, and forums) and I've been blindly searching everywhere for mere particles of information on small guns. And here is all this fantastic info, in one neat package, with pictures, yet! Thank you so much.

I only wish I knew something about guns so I, too, could bombard you with all my personal favorites that you overlooked :)

Thanks again.

[357-8-times]

Hey bobo your list rocks, thanks!

For comparison and general size-reference how about adding a full-size 1911?

Also, Kel-tec P40 should make the cut AFAIK.

[Bobo]

KarenTOC,

Thanks for the thanks!
===============================================

357-8-times,

As a matter of fact I added a 1911 for comparison recently and also a list of future additions that are expected to be available soon.

I haven't asked Marshall at www.mouseguns.com to post it yet because I didn't want to bother him with minor changes. But since you asked I'll ask him to post as soon as he can.

The Kel-Tec P40 is no longer being produced, as hasn't been for some time that's why it's not on the chart.

Bobo

[First Big Foot]

I notice that the last entries were in 2006. Are you still working on this list to include the new Ruger LCP?
I am considering one of them for purchase.
Thanks for your response.
Woodclaver@aol.com

[AJMBLAZER]

Ummmm...the post before yours is from September and the latest version of the chart does have the LCP on it.

[2cooltoolz]

Old Thread, but I'll +1 to thanks to Bobo! I've referred to your chart probably a hundred times and always keep the current version as a desktop icon, one click away!

Thanks again!!

[17poundr]

Nice work chaps!
I really like what you have done with the chart, it's much better now imho.

I'm sorry that I didnt help bobo in getting info on guns like the Glock-26, CZ-83, 3inch barrelled 1911s ect... I got busy on other things, and then just plain forgot about it. :o But if I do start to do research who can I send my info to?

Yours truly,
Mrpoundr.

[Bobo]

17poundr,

Please see this new thread
http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=412149&highlight=Big+Pocket+Autos
and contact trackaddict88 who is collecting all the information and who will forward it to me for compilation into a new "big pocket gun" chart.

Thanks,
Bobo

[Boba Fett]

SigSauer Exploded View Diagrams (http://www.sigsauer.com/LawEnforcement/ExplodedViews.aspx)

These diagrams are for the following:

P220
P226
P229
P229 DAK
P232
P239
P250
SP2009/2340/2022
SG550 and SG551
SG552
SG556

Enjoy! :cool:

[MatthewVanitas]

Not to be greedy, but when you get a chance it'd be great to see the new Sig 238 factored into all this. It appears to have dimensions similar to the old Colt 380 pistols.

[Boba Fett]

Sorry, put that post in the wrong place...delete the post of mine above and this one please.

Thanks.

[Bobo]

MatthewVanitas,

Heard that the SIG 238 won't be out until the spring or summer of '09.
When it actually is available I'll add it to the chart.

Supposedly the Kahr 380 is now being distributed. As soon as I hear of someone actually owning one I'll add that also.

The Taurus Slim PT709 9mm is now being shown on the Taurus web site. http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=588&category=Pistol
Don't know if that is in distribution yet either. Won't matter as far the chart is concerned, it's exactly 6" long - just missed the chart.

Bobo

[CoRoMo]

I guess the LCR doesn't qualify for the chart.

[Bobo]

CoRoMo,

You're correct, the Ruger LCR is a revolver not a semi-auto so it doesn't qualify for the chart. Looks like a neat gun though!
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/01/14/ruger-lcr-pistol-revolver/

Bobo

[17poundr]

Do you think that the new Ruger will be available in many calibers in the future?

[baryon]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5222910&postcount=117

Requires a username/password to access it. Please post the diagrams here if you have already downloaded.

[marshall3]

Hi BOBO!
You have a never ending job with this chart! Thanks for doing it for the firearm community!

Marshall at mouseguns.com

[Bobo]

Hi Marshall,

A return thanks for your great site www.mouseguns.com, and for hosting the chart for us!

Bobo

[bigred0383]

Bobo, I want to chime in with everyone else in thanking you for compiling the chart, it is a very useful reference!

I know that it has been brought up once or twice already in this thread, and I understand that at 6.1" long and 20.8oz in weight, the PPK is outside of the pocket gun requirements, but have you considering adding it as a reference similar to the J-Frame/1911 (possibly even taking the place of the 1911 on the chart)? It is certainly a classic and well known design that many people have handled (ala J-Frame) that would make an excellent reference point for the other pistols listed. I am sure many would consider it one of the original pocket pistols.

Just curious, and thanks again!

[rogertc1]

As a life time mouse gun collector your work is appreciated.

[AKElroy]

the smaller Glocks among others, might fit larger front pockets, but in addition they are also generally wider and heavier. This makes them a bit too much for comfortable pocket carry in my opinion.

I'm a big guy @ 250 lbs, so my pockets are large. I carry a G27 in a desantis nemesis holster in my front pocket as my primary CCW. With light or tight clothes, I usually switch to a S&W 340 w/ 38+p's. I am not a fan of "mouse" guns if a standard caliber can be swallowed up in a pocket--Best to try it & see if they fit comfortably before assuming a minor caliber is the only choice for pocket carry. 10 rounds of 165 grn. gold dot DT's + 9 more in the off pocket mag is very reassuring in a dark parking lot or garage. For normal sized people, major caliber pocket carry may not be as viable an option, but it is worth testing the fit just in case.

[Probie9]

Great job!! I will have to look at the P11. Couldn't decide between Millennium Pro P111 and the Keltec. Can't have too much information. Again, Great Job!!!

[midiwall]

I just found this - wanted to say thank you SOOO much!

[midiwall]

I will have to look at the P11. Couldn't decide between Millennium Pro P111 and the Keltec.
I've been wandering through a similar decision point and ended up sold on a third option - the KelTec PF9. It's a only single-stacked 7+1 versus 10+1, but it's a smoother weapon.

It's basically the upgrade of the P-11; smaller, lighter, smoother.

Just like anything else, they're hard to find... So maybe get on waiting lists for either one and grab the first one that comes up. :)

[drtee]

Thanx for the chart. Very useful.

[longslide10]

Greetings all.

I stumbled across this forum, filed it in my favorites, and was about to close it when I decided to scan through it. This was the first thread I opened and it was enough to make me want to join. I've got a few hand-cannons and several "mice" myself.

Great chart and forum!

[jwalker497]

I use this thing all the time!!! KUDOS to the author!

Are there new pieces out that are not listed on this, just curious?

[Methos]

Great chart! It's extremely helpful. The one problem I'm finding with it is how to locate ammo for whatever I choose. I turned in my permit last week and at this rate I'll have a permit and (hopefully a gun), but no ammo. :(

Just curious why the Bersa (believe that is the name) isn't included.

[polekitty]

I don't weigh 200+ lb so my pockets aren't any bigger than most other guys. My Taurus 24/7PRO 9mm fits in one of my pockets quite well. Doesn't that make it a "pocket gun?" How about that Para midget 9mm?

[BIKERTRASH]

Bobo,
How about the Springfield XD40 at 26 oz. with a 3" barrel and 4.75" tall with the 9 shot mag. I purchased one and it is great in a back belt holster a jackey pocket or even in your pants pocket.
But that's my openion and i'm stickin to it. Although my wife has a hard time cocking itso I'll end up with a KelTec 0380 for her.

[Bobo]

jwalker asked - "Are there new pieces out that are not listed on this, just curious?"
Answer - Not as far as I know of.

Methos said - "The one problem I'm finding with it is how to locate ammo for whatever I choose. I turned in my permit last week and at this rate I'll have a permit and (hopefully a gun), but no ammo."
Answer - Welcome to the "no-ammo" club!!
Methos queried - "Just curious why the Bersa (believe that is the name) isn't included."
Answer - There are no Bersas under 6" in length. Some are really close but they just missed the parameters for the chart.

polekitty asked - "My Taurus 24/7PRO 9mm fits in one of my pockets quite well. Doesn't that make it a "pocket gun?" How about that Para midget 9mm?
Answer - same as above.

BIKERTRASH asked - "How about the Springfield XD40 at 26 oz. with a 3" barrel and 4.75" tall with the 9 shot mag... "
Answer - same as above.

Thanks to all who have expressed their appreciation for "the chart",
Bobo

[harmon rabb]

are you the same Bobo i know from AR? do you like fat chicks? :hmm:

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well, since we're including vaporware (Kahr .380), then I think we need to add the Boberg to Bobo's:

http://www.bobergengineering.com/

Great work, by the way!

[dancingbear1564]

When I was looking for a pocket gun. I did all my own research and even test fired a couple little pocket rockets. I ended up with a Bersa Thunder .380CC, I actually carry it more than my XD-40SC. In your pocket, IWB holster or in your hand the gun practicly disappears.:what: For what I payed for the Bersa, (under $300) it is a fine piece of equipment.

[Bobo]

harmon rabb are you the same Bobo i know from AR? do you like fat chicks? :hmm: Nope, never been on AR.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow Well, since we're including vaporware (Kahr .380), then I think we need to add the Boberg to Bobo's:

http://www.bobergengineering.com/

Great work, by the way! There actually have been some Kahr 380s produced and sold -- no so the Boberg.
Thanks for the kudos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
dancingbear1564 When I was looking for a pocket gun. I did all my own research and even test fired a couple little pocket rockets. I ended up with a Bersa Thunder .380CC, I actually carry it more than my XD-40SC. In your pocket, IWB holster or in your hand the gun practicly disappears. For what I payed for the Bersa, (under $300) it is a fine piece of equipment. The Bersa just missed the under 6" OAL, the smallest Bersa, the CC version is exactly 6" OAL. There a few other guns that are exactly 6" OAL also.

Bobo

[rhoggman]

Bobo...

The LCP does not have a slide lock. It is actually has a "manual slide hold open".

This is important because the slide does not lock back after he last round.

The purpose of the manual slide hold open is only for manually chambering a round.

This also helps distinguish the difference in operation from guns like he Kahr.

[Bobo]

rhoggman,

You are correct, the difference should be noted. The next update will have "Slide Hold Open" for the LCP.

Thanks,
Bobo

[Joistman]

I have found more useful information on this website in 2 days than I have in scouring the internet for 3 weeks. Your chart is an absolute gem. Thanks for your efforts.

[newuser]

Bobo,
Thanks for the chart and keeping up to date. It has influenced many of my gun purchases. I just wish there were more SA pistols in this size range.
I know in the past there was talk of doing a revolver chart and medium size auto chart. What ever happened to these? Are they still in the works?
Thanks again

[Bobo]

newuser,

Thanks for the thanks.

I have had an open offer for over three years to anyone that wants to supply the photos and specifications for all the guns necessary to do a revolver or "larger" semi-auto gun chart. I will compile the supplied items into a finished chart once the information and photos are forwarded to me.

Twice someone has agreed to get the information, but so far there has been no follow through. See posts #10, #106 thru 108, #115 & 116 above; and this thread http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=412149 especially post #10.

Most people don't realize how much time and effort it takes to get all the necessary information and to assure that it is accurate, and then to keep it up to date.

The offer is still open ...

Bobo

[Waldo Pepper]

G29 is my pocket gun and I been carrying one for couple years.


GLOCK 29 10MM AUTO
http://www.glock.com/images/gif_1x1_brown.gif


WEIGHT
700 g / 24.69 oz.

LOADED (~)
935 g / 32.98 oz.http://www.glock.com/images/gif_1x1_brown.gifhttp://www.glock.com/images/gif_1x1_brown.gif

LENGTH
172 mm / 6.77 in.

HEIGHT
113 mm / 4.45 in.

MAG. CAPACITY
Standard: 10

TRIGGER PULL
2.5 kg / 5.5 lbs.

[mesinge2]

The sccy CPX-1 is a pocket 9mm in the compairson chart I was just wondering about people's opinions of this weapon.

I would like a pocket 9mm auto but I like a thumb safety.

If the sccy is not that great, does anyone else know a pocket 9mm auto with a thumb safety?

[Waldo Pepper]

None I can think of off hand. If price is a factor it may be a viable choice. Never seen one that I know of, or know of anyone that ownes one. Bet it is as reliable as a KT PF9, and it is in that price range bit no safety.

[midiwall]

I would like a pocket 9mm auto but I like a thumb safety.
If the sccy is not that great, does anyone else know a pocket 9mm auto with a thumb safety?
Maybe start a new thread asking tis question? You'll get more visibility...

[Waldo Pepper]

Gun shop owner today told me the gun was designed by the same guy who designed the KC PF9, not sure how he knows. That said he is pretty well informed on these things and lives on the internet and at gun shows.

[rogertc1]

great chart!!!

[marshall3]

I really like how BobO keeps the chart up to date, and takes questions on this forum. Thanks, BobO!
Marshall

[Safetychain]

After reading this thread, I was pretty sure that the KT 380 was going to be my first pocket gun. However, found a freind that had one and took him to lunch and then the range to let me shoot it.

1. I'm not overweight but have fairly large hands and the index finger wouldn't fit well in front of the trigger. Had to kind of work the finger in. Your pictures make it look like the LCP may have a slightly larger index finger opening.

2. We were shooting reloads. Out of nearly 40 rnds, one FTF due to a raised primmer and about 10 FTE. Determined that all the FTE casings were split. Then noticed that another 5 or so that did eject were split. The primers showed no overpressure indications. We then shot my old Husqvarna WWII 380 and what I think I remember as a Khar with no split cases. Now I'm thinking the KT maybe has a slightly larger chamber than the others. Will be looking into this further.

[Johnny Guest]

- -just to move this to the top of the forum.

I'm locking the thread only so it will stay at the top for a time. It is more valuable for reference than for discussion.

Johnny Guest
THR Staff