Latest puke article from WI


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tater_salad
December 19, 2005, 07:49 AM
Editorial: Weapons bill still a bad idea
From the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Dec. 18, 2005

A lengthy bill to permit residents to carry concealed weapons got more wrinkles by the time it emerged from the Assembly the other day. Sponsors added concessions in an attempt to peel away Democratic opposition and to make the measure veto-proof.


Trouble is, the bill's substance remains the same. More people will be packing heat on the streets - which is likely to cause more harm than good.

The Senate, which approved an earlier version of the bill by a wide margin, is expected to repeat that performance and back the Assembly version. Then it goes to Gov. Jim Doyle, who, thank goodness, has promised to veto the measure, just as he did to a concealed-carry bill that came his way in 2003. The dictates of law and order demand that the Legislature uphold the veto.

The gun lobby's muscle, not popular support, explains why the idea of concealed carry has gotten as far as it has here and elsewhere. Polls in Wisconsin and around the nation have shown majority opposition to the idea. The Missouri Legislature passed concealed carry even though the people had voted it down in a referendum. The Wisconsin Legislature should heed the silent majority, not a clamorous interest group.

Three concessions - lowering the amount of alcohol a gun wielder can consume, widening school safety zones where guns are barred and requiring refresher training courses every five years - did ameliorate a bad bill, but it remains bad. A fourth concession - making the filing of a false application for a concealed-carry license a felony, rather than a misdemeanor - will likely have little deterrence, which is assured more by the certainty of punishment than its severity.

Backers of concealed carry exaggerate its potential for good and dismiss its potential for harm. They don't talk about an incident earlier this year in Tyler, Texas, where, sure enough, a concealed-carry license holder did try to stop a husband who shot his wife outside the courthouse. The good Samaritan was himself shot to death. Nor do they dwell on the 41 arrests of concealed-carry license holders for murder and attempted murder in Texas between 1996 and 2001.

The record since 2001? Nobody knows. The initial study prompted Texas to put information about license holders off limits. Such secrecy would apply in Wisconsin, too - another powerful reason to shoot down this bill. The public deserves to have access to information to determine how well a concealed-carry law is working.



http://www.jsonline.com/news/editorials/dec05/378356.asp


Well, I guess all I can do is :barf:

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Janitor
December 19, 2005, 08:13 AM
Trouble is, the bill's substance remains the same. More people will be packing heat on the streets - which is likely to cause more harm than good.
I keep on hearing this, but nobody ever has anything else to say about it other than "it's a bad thing". What's more amazing to me is how many people believe statments like this w/o question.
-

lance22
December 19, 2005, 10:14 AM
Before we got our "shall issue" passed here (both times ... long story) in Minnesota ... the local papers were repeating every "brady" line in the book over and over every single day. And look now ... we have "shall issue".

The hard-core leftists in Wisconsin are scared. Take what they write as an omen of their passing ... and after Doyle's veto join your 2A brothers in writing, emailing, and calling everyone thanking them and urging them to vote in favor of "shall issue". You don't have to preach at this point ... just tell them how you want them to vote and they'll count how many contacts have urged them in that direction.

halvey
December 19, 2005, 10:48 AM
Nor do they dwell on the 41 arrests of concealed-carry license holders for murder and attempted murder in Texas between 1996 and 2001.
Do they honestly think, permit or not a permit would have stopped someone from carrying this out. Besides, if you use a gun is SD, you still will be "arrested" for murder and attempted murder.

FireBreather01
December 19, 2005, 02:39 PM
"Backers of concealed carry exaggerate its potential for good and dismiss its potential for harm. They don't talk about an incident earlier this year in Tyler, Texas, where, sure enough, a concealed-carry license holder did try to stop a husband who shot his wife outside the courthouse. The good Samaritan was himself shot to death."

Nevermind the fact that police credited Mark Wilson with saving the wife's (and the deranged killer's) son by his intervention. Nevermind the fact that he was credited by police with likely ending the rampage earlier than it might otherwise have lasted. Nevermind the fact that police said many more were probably saved by Wilson's selfless act. And nevermind that the killer fled once faced with opposition. Oh and let's forget about the courage it took for Wilson to enter the fray - using only a 9mm and going up against a crazed killer wearing body armor and armed with an AK.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2005/02/concealed-handgum-permit-holders.html

That's the Milwaukee Journal's editorial writers for you - don't let the facts stand in the way of your argument!

Carl N. Brown
December 19, 2005, 03:09 PM
Since 1986, Twenty-Seven states have passed shall-issue carry permit laws.
Eight already had "shall-issue" without the dire problems predicted.

Everytime, the antis trot out the "blood in the gutters" and "wild west
shootouts" propaganda.

Twenty-seven times the antis' predictions have not come true.

Why should Wisconsin be any different?

goalie
December 19, 2005, 03:44 PM
Um, note that they said ARRESTS, not convictions. There is a significant difference. Many places will arrest someone that shoots someone else until it gets sorted out. Minneapolis comes to mind. That does not mean that the arrested people were charged, let alone convicted.

GunnySkox
December 19, 2005, 04:26 PM
Additionally: Woah-ho-ho! Look out! Forty one whole arrests in five years?! You mean as many as eight people who carry guns might have been accused of crimes per year?!

Oh.
My.
God.

I might just start burning my guns. I can't handle the intense evil.

~GnSx

cosine
December 19, 2005, 04:29 PM
Since 1986, Twenty-Seven states have passed shall-issue carry permit laws.
Eight already had "shall-issue" without the dire problems predicted.

Everytime, the antis trot out the "blood in the gutters" and "wild west
shootouts" propaganda.

Twenty-seven times the antis' predictions have not come true.

Why should Wisconsin be any different?

+1. Wisconsin shouldn't be any different, and won't be any different.

cosine
December 19, 2005, 04:30 PM
Additionally: Woah-ho-ho! Look out! Forty one whole arrests in five years?! You mean as many as eight people who carry guns might have been accused of crimes per year?!

Oh.
My.
God.

I might just start burning my guns. I can't handle the intense evil.

~GnSx

Oh no!! Look what was written!! I'm not sure the anti's can handle the intense hyperbole!! :p ................:D:D

erik the bold
December 19, 2005, 05:17 PM
the state police started issuing their CCW annual reports. Latest is here (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CCWAnnual_Report2004_2005_143245_7.pdf)

Interesting data, because it shows what, where, why of denials and revocations, by county. AND, :what: , Detroit is by far the worst....

Just for information, in the fisical year ended June 30, 2005, Michigan:
Accepted 58,366 applications
Issued 54,677 licenses
Denied 331 applications (0.6% of applications) with 12 applications being withdrawn
Revoked 121 licenses (0.07% of licenses issued since 2001, which was 166,297), most were for alcohol related offenses (DUI, etc...)

I would think the responsible citizens of Wisconsin would behave similarly.

:neener:

MatthewVanitas
December 19, 2005, 06:25 PM
What Wisconsin gun-rights group do I send a fiver to as an "attaboy"?

-MV

Strings
December 19, 2005, 08:41 PM
that would be the WCCA. I suppose you COULD send money to WGO, but why would you want to give Corey more money? WCCA is ALL volunteer, so your donation goes to the fight (not to line someone's pockets)...

Oh... sent a response to the OpEd. We'll see if they print it...

Standing Wolf
December 19, 2005, 08:50 PM
More people will be packing heat on the streets - which is likely to cause more harm than good.


That's a lie. If Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda in Nazi Germany, had told it, I'm sure he'd be very proud of himself, because a.) it's a big lie, and b.) it's a big lie repeated often enough that many unsuspecting people have mistaken it for fact.

jtward01
December 20, 2005, 12:39 AM
I've seen that figure of 41 CCW holders arrested for murder before. I can't remember which pro-gun site it was, but someone had compared the percentages of CCW carriers charged with murder and the general public charged with murder and it turned out that CCW holders were four times less likely to be arrested for murder than the public at large. If I can find the alfigures I'm going to write a letter to the editor of the Sentinel-Journal.

Carl N. Brown
December 21, 2005, 04:21 PM
I would expect, in a self-defense homicide, to be charged with
voluntary manslaughter until the case was investigated and
adjudicated.

chas_martel
December 21, 2005, 04:55 PM
Not only did Mark Wilson surely save others lives but he did something
leftist, and the govt, are scared to death of - he was master of his own destiny.

I pray God takes care of his soul, he gave his life for others, the
most selfish act in which a human can engage.

ARperson
December 21, 2005, 05:20 PM
I would not expect to be arrested in a self-defense shooting. I can see being taken into custody temporarily while the story is straightened out. But not arrested.

Thankfully, here in Indiana, law enforcement agrees (for the most part) with me. There was even a case of a landscape/nursery owner peppering some teenagers with buckshot after they had vandalized his property/vehicle multiple times who was not charged. And I could have been on board with charging (at least with some recklessness or public endangerment type of crime) him since his life wasn't in danger. The cool thing is that the teenagers, in addition to suffering some painful peppering wounds ARE being charged for trespass and vandalization. :D

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