Man Accidentally Kills Self Practicing Cowboy Action Shooting


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Reddog1
December 18, 2005, 12:57 PM
Has anyone else read the article in ths Ocala Star Banner about the man
that killed himself at a Cowboy Action Shooting meet in the Ocala
National Forest? Seems he was shooting two .357 mag SSAs when one
twisted in his hand and fired hitting him. Bad accident, left wife and children.
It was in this mornings paper. :( :(

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mete
December 18, 2005, 01:25 PM
Twisted in his hand ? Or did he do it on the draw ?

FXR
December 18, 2005, 01:29 PM
Tragic and sad consequences of a ND. My heart goes out to his family.
K

MrTuffPaws
December 18, 2005, 01:32 PM
Cowboy grips are funny, but how is it going to twist in your hand enough to shoot you?

Preacherman
December 18, 2005, 01:44 PM
Here's (http://www.ocala.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051218/NEWS/212180390/1001/news) the article:

Published Dec. 18, 2005 7:30 am

Man killed in accident at shooting range

Witnesses say man shot himself practicing cowboy action shooting.

AUSTIN L. MILLER
STAR-BANNER

OCALA NATIONAL FOREST - A 39-year-old man accidentally shot himself to death at a gun range Saturday while practicing a popular sport called cowboy action shooting.

The Marion County Sheriff's Office identified the man as Chadwick M. Bogard, 39, of Kingsport, Tenn. According to the Sheriff's Office, he was married and had children. Deputies also said he was in the area on a job interview. Deputies said the man has a wife and children.

Sheriff's deputies said they received the shooting call at 9:45 a.m. from the Forest Road 88 Gun Range. When they arrived the man was unconscious. He was transported to Shands Hospital in Gainesville, where he died shortly before 3 p.m.

"At this point, it appears accidental and no foul play is suspected," said sheriff's Capt. Fred Vyse.

Authorities said the man appeared to be a cowboy action shooting fan, and he was at the range practicing. Eyewitnesses told them he had two single-action revolvers - a .357-caliber Magnum in each hand - and was firing .38-caliber rounds in the weapons back and forth.

They determined that at about the eighth shot, the weapon somehow rotated toward him and discharged, striking him in the abdomen.

"I heard him say, 'I'm shot,' " said Bill Hayter, an employee of the Star-Banner who was standing next to the man. "I saw him slumping to the ground and I called 911."

Hayter said bystanders propped up the man's feet and head and performed CPR.

Kat Kelley, a spokeswoman for the Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission, said Saturday that the agency constructed and maintained the building and the range. However, Kelley said they do not own the range, as it is on U.S. Forestry property.

Kelley said since the 1990s, the agency is only aware of two accidents on the range, both of which occurred in the 1990s. In the first case, blood was found on the range but there were no reports of anyone being injured there. The second incident was in the late 1990s when a man's weapon exploded. Three people, including the gun owner, suffered minor injuries.

Web sites dedicated to cowboy action shooting describe it as a fast growing sport. The weapons used are mostly older style guns, and the shooter attempts to hit as many targets as he can in the shortest time possible.

"This is a rarity," said Johnny Nelson, from Roswell, N.M., of the shooting.

whm1974
December 18, 2005, 02:02 PM
Cowboy grips are funny, but how is it going to twist in your hand enough to shoot you?

I'm wondering myself. I could see having a AD on the draw, but...

-Bill

Rem700SD
December 18, 2005, 02:22 PM
Hmm, I'm not a revolver owner, but if it was single action, maybe he was holstering a cocked gun? Or perhaps holding both guns and turned the gun toward himself to cock it with the other hand? Just speculating
Dan

rfurtkamp
December 18, 2005, 02:42 PM
Sounds like someone did the twirl the gun around with the finger in the trigger guard routine and gravity caught up with him.

Texfire
December 18, 2005, 02:53 PM
Man what an awful thing. Truly a sad loss for his family. My thoughts go out to them.

Tex

Azrael256
December 18, 2005, 03:18 PM
I was at one of those small town fairs once. I saw a fella do a trick where he holds his thumb on the hammer, which stays pretty much stationary, and then swings the gun forward to cock it. When he brings the barrel back up, he's in position for a point shot. Real, REAL dangerous trick, as your finger gets awfully close to that SA trigger. I could see how flubbing it could put the muzzle at abdomen level if you lost your grip on the hammer after it hit the full cock notch. The guy I saw doing it was using blanks. He wasn't really shooting, just showing off some fancy gun twirling. Sounds to me like this guy might have been trying something similar. Damn shame that it caught him like that.

Gunpacker
December 18, 2005, 03:34 PM
Sounds like he was practicing the "Duelist" scenario, where indeed, you shoot with one gun in each hand alternating shots from each hand.
IMO, it is easy to imagine losing control of a Colt while thumb cocking with one hand. Just a simple mistake. From there, drop it and try to regain control while it is cocked, and you can have an AD. Sad, since CAS has an overall great safety record. My prayers go out to his family. The CAS fraternity has lost a friend, and probably a wonderful person, since CAS shooters as a group are among the best people you can hope to meet.:(
Gunpacker SASS 32844

Edit: Makes me wonder if this is a good type of shooting to practice, since if you slip in some manner with one hand, your other hand is full of another gun and you are in a world of trouble.

Texfire
December 18, 2005, 03:36 PM
Let's not get too far afield. After all we only have secondhand eyewitness accounts, and a theory from law enforcement on what might have happened. They may have been watching closely, and maybe not. We don't know that he was doing something unsafe.

Rereading the article, and drawing inferences from it, it appears that he might have been shooting gunfighter style. That's standing with two drawn pistols, and cocking and firing them alternately with each hand. I guess that if he lost control of the grip while cocking it, it could rotate on the trigger finger and fire when the trigger rotates up on top of the finger with the weight of the gun tripping the sear. That doesn't mean that he was showboating, just that he had an accident.

I don't want to try and calculate the odds that happening, then of a single .38 caliber slug hitting a vital organ and causing instant death. Just suffice to say he was really really unlucky.

Tex

Lefty Blackburn SASS 67010

El Tejon
December 18, 2005, 04:47 PM
I used to ref CAS matches for a bondsman buddy of mine.

I have seen this almost occur before I put a quick stop to it. There are two variations that I saw:

1. The top wrist flick: the cowboy flicks the gun over his shoulder in cocking it like he is casting a fly rod. First time I saw it I dropped my clipboard (and then had small stroke) and stopped everyone right there and gave them a basic weapons handling lecture.

2. The two gun sideways push: the cowboy has guns blazing, one after other, and one pistol (usually weaker hand) pushes to side and muzzle goes sideways as he draws the weapon back. We put a stop to the Duelist stuff after I pointed this out.

CAS is a lot of fun (I mean playing dress up, what's more fun that that, it's like a carbine class and the guys who dress up as "operators"). I just wish the organization would stress proper weapons handling. Too many treated it as a "game." Maybe this will spur change.:)

jsalcedo
December 18, 2005, 05:00 PM
While firing a colt SAA clone one handed I have had the the gun slip sideways while cocking the hammer.

If the guy was going really fast I could see this happening.

georgeduz
December 18, 2005, 05:08 PM
thats why u use 2 hands on one gun.

Fenrik
December 18, 2005, 05:52 PM
I used to frequent that range alot. Its in the middle of nowhere, about 20+ miles from the nearest hospital. Not the type of place you want to have an accident.

I also noticed alot of the shooters there lacking basic gun safety. Especially during hunting season when the range is crowded. I suppose an accident was bound to happen sooner than later. Too bad it was a fatal one.

hso
December 18, 2005, 05:53 PM
He might have been wearing a cross draw rig? http://www.cowboyactionshooting.com/images/cowboys/TopGuns/Capt%20John%20B%20Armstrong,%20Jane%20Seymour.jpg

Cosmoline
December 18, 2005, 06:13 PM
I'm wondering myself. I could see having a AD on the draw, but...

-Bill


I can see how it could happen. Imagine if he COCKED the revolver in his left hand while shooting in his right, then as he was pulling back his right hand and presenting his left the grip slips out from his palm because he hadn't gotten his thumb back around it yet. Since the revolver is top heavy, it of course rolls down on his finger and is pointing back towards his gut, and since it is cocked and has a nice light CAS trigger the weight of the revolver is enough to discharge it and BANG that's all she wrote.

Father Knows Best
December 18, 2005, 08:40 PM
I used to ref CAS matches for a bondsman buddy of mine.

I have seen this almost occur before I put a quick stop to it. There are two variations that I saw:

1. The top wrist flick: the cowboy flicks the gun over his shoulder in cocking it like he is casting a fly rod. First time I saw it I dropped my clipboard (and then had small stroke) and stopped everyone right there and gave them a basic weapons handling lecture.

2. The two gun sideways push: the cowboy has guns blazing, one after other, and one pistol (usually weaker hand) pushes to side and muzzle goes sideways as he draws the weapon back. We put a stop to the Duelist stuff after I pointed this out.

CAS is a lot of fun (I mean playing dress up, what's more fun that that, it's like a carbine class and the guys who dress up as "operators"). I just wish the organization would stress proper weapons handling. Too many treated it as a "game." Maybe this will spur change.:)

You're kidding, right? You obviously haven't been a CAS match that follows SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) rules. First of all, you don't "ref" a SASS match. Each posse has SASS-certified Range Officers, and EVERY member of the posse is a safety officer.

More importantly, SASS is the most safety-conscious shooting organization I have ever seen, by a long shot. SASS rules are so incredibly restrictive that some of us think they go overboard and remove too much of the "fun" from the sport.

For example, under SASS rules you cannot move with a cocked gun. That means no shooting "on the move", as is common in IPSC, IDPA and every other action shooting sport. In a SASS match, you can only move with the hammer down on an empty chamber. A violation of this rule results in an immediate stage disqualification. I've seen plenty of competitors DQ'ed for simply shuffling their feet a little.

Second, SASS has a rule to enforce muzzle discipline that is known as "the 170." Basically, it means that if you muzzle ever strays too far from downrange, you are disqualified. Point it straight up in the air results in an immediate disqualification. It is not uncommon to see beginners get their muzzles a little high when trying to cock a revolver one-handed. The Timer Operator will usually caution them to watch their muzzle. If they keep doing it, they'll get DQ'ed.

In fact, the 170 rule about muzzle direction is so strict that you can't reholster a crossdraw while standing square to the line without getting a DQ. That results in competitors using crossdraw rigs having to turn their bodies sideways to the line before reholstering -- a move that is so common in CAS it has become known as "the crossdraw shuffle" or just "the dance." At pre-match safety meetings, you almost always hear the Safety Officer say, "competitors with crossdraws, remember to 'do the dance.'"

Third, sweeping anyone with a muzzle, even yourself and even when the firearm is open and unloaded behind the line, is an automatic DQ. After clearing your guns at the unloading table under the eye of the unloading officer, you walk them back to your cart with muzzles up and actions open. If you accidentally sweep a fellow competitor on the way, you're done for the day -- that's a match DQ. Of course, I go to the club to shoot a round of trap or skeet, and I get swept by 10 muzzles before I have my car unloaded. Go figure.

After shooting CAS for a few years, I find it difficult to attend any other type of organized shooting competition, because no other group is anywhere near as anal about safety as SASS is.

Finally, let me note that it sounds like this guy was practicing shooting "Gunfighter" style, which means handling one revolver in each hand simultaneously. "Duelist" requires shooting one-handed, i.e., cocking and firing the revolver with a single hand (the way it was done in the old west, and the style the guns were designed for). "Gunfighter" is Duelist with two guns at once -- one in each hand.

Gunfighter can indeed be dangerous. It's hard enough to manipulate a single action revolver one-handed. Once you master that, you should practice with the weak hand until you are just as good weak-handed as strong-handed. Only then should you attempt Gunfighter.

At my club, you have to be a member and compete as a Duelist for at least a year before they'll even let you attempt to qualify to compete as a Gunfighter. The qualification involves a test on a closed range before several experienced Gunfighters.

SASS couldn't be any more safe than it is. That's why this accident occurred when and where it did. He was on his own "practicing" things that he would never be permitted to do at a match.

Standing Wolf
December 18, 2005, 10:05 PM
There's a lot to be said for dry shooting.

Father Knows Best
December 18, 2005, 10:29 PM
FYI, the article says the man is from Kingsport, in northeastern Tennessee. I'm a member of two CAS clubs in western Tennessee, and I have good friends in most of the other Tennessee CAS clubs, including the Wartrace Regulators (Nashville area), and the two clubs near Kingsport -- the Smokey Mountain Shootist Society and the Greene County Regulators. According to officers with each of those clubs, no one by this guy's name is member of any of the clubs, and no one by that name has shot in any sanctioned match put on by one of those clubs in at least the last three years.

In other words, the guy does not appear to have actually shot in a sanctioned CAS match. He probably isn't even a member of SASS. Perhaps if he was, he would have learned how to handle those irons safely, and he'd still be with us today.

loose cannon
December 19, 2005, 03:42 AM
i have very limited sa experience but ive learned that i have a hard time safely operating a standard saa style one handed. because my hands are too small and my thumbs arent long enough i tend to cant the gun when cocking.

on the other hand the ruger bisley style is perfect for me because the spur is lowered and easily reached by my thumb so i dont have to cant the gun.i wonder if the same was the case with this guy.

its a shame no 1 caught his bad safty habits and taught him differently.safty should be everyones buisness.

El Tejon
December 19, 2005, 06:45 AM
FKB, that has not been my experience at all. I was shocked at the weapons handling at CAS events.

However, last time I was at a match was 2000, so maybe things have improved.:)

jdkelly
December 19, 2005, 07:41 AM
... I find it difficult to attend any other type of organized shooting competition, because no other group is anywhere near as anal about safety as SASS is.---FNB

Although I attend several shoots a year as a spectator, I don't shoot SASS because I don't want to play "dress up" or "role play". But that's just my personal preference.

I no longer shoot IDPA for several reasons that I won't rehash here, and I've cut my USPSA shooting back for other reasons.

From what I've seen all three sports have very good safety rules and none seem to meto be any safer then the other two.

But of these three shooting sports, the SASS shooters seem to be the least comfortable with their gun handling skills. Perhaps it's just the dynamics of the firearms involved or maybe it's the shooters attracted to the different sports.


Respectfully,

jkelly

Father Knows Best
December 19, 2005, 08:42 AM
But of these three shooting sports, the SASS shooters seem to be the least comfortable with their gun handling skills. Perhaps it's just the dynamics of the firearms involved or maybe it's the shooters attracted to the different sports.

That definitely could be the case. CAS tends to attract a lot of people who are not hardcore shooters. Many of them are new to the shooting sports, entirely. There are lots of women, children, senior citizens, etc. At a typical match, as many as 20% of the competitors will be women. I've been at matches where we had shooters ranging in age from 8 to 83. SASS addresses the wide range of experience levels and capabilities by having extremely strict safety rules.

So yes -- some of these people may not seem particularly "comfortable" with their gun handling. That's fine with me. If they're a little nervous about gun safety, they are far less likely to make stupid mistakes that get people injured or killed. In my 30 years of competitive shooting, 95% of the most dangerous acts I've seen have been committed by the most experienced shooters. They get cocky and careless. You won't find them in SASS.

Rockrivr1
December 20, 2005, 08:42 AM
The story is pretty vague. I wonder how he "accidentally" shot himself.

http://www.local6.com/news/5572231/detail.html

Texfire
December 20, 2005, 09:23 AM
Reply to post above pointing out a duplicate thread. Deleted when threads were merged.

AirForceShooter
December 20, 2005, 09:44 AM
The Florida gun board types are all over this. The explanations given as to how this could happen tend to border on the incredible.

TWIRLING???

AFS

jdkelly
December 20, 2005, 09:49 AM
You won't find them in SASS.---FNB
Of course you will, they're in every sport!

Sorry FNB, it just doesn't make sense that the more experienced you are the more dangerous you are, in fact I believe the opposite to be true.

Compliancy in gun handling is not dependent on experience but rather on one's belief in their own ability, and that happens at all levels of experience.

When I said least "comfortable" I meant least able/skilled of the three shooting sports as a whole.

From what I've seen I couldn't agree with you that SASS shooters are safer then IDPA and USPSA shooters.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

Father Knows Best
December 20, 2005, 10:55 AM
Of course you will, they're in every sport!

Sorry FNB, it just doesn't make sense that the more experienced you are the more dangerous you are, in fact I believe the opposite to be true.

Compliancy in gun handling is not dependent on experience but rather on one's belief in their own ability, and that happens at all levels of experience.

When I said least "comfortable" I meant least able/skilled of the three shooting sports as a whole.

From what I've seen I couldn't agree with you that SASS shooters are safer then IDPA and USPSA shooters.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

I'm not trying to say that SASS shooters are "safer" than IDPA or USPSA shooters, as a general rule. I will say that familiarity leads to complacency. Remember the infamous "I'm the only one here professional enough to carry this .40" video? Cops handle firearms every day. Some of them tend to get complacent. That leads to stupid things.

My own brother, who has been a competitive pistol shooter for 30 years and is currently an LEO and SWAT team member, killed the spare tire in the trunk of his car with an ND. He was on a SWAT training exercise and they were breaking for lunch. He cleared his Glock while standing at the trunk of his car, in preparation for stowing it. After dropping the mag and ejecting the chambered round, he squeezed the trigger. BANG! A nice little hole appeared in the carpeted floor of his trunk and deflated his spare. Apparently, he had reversed the drop-mag-and-rack-slide procedure. Thankfully, he had the pistol pointed in a safe direction when he pulled the trigger. He had done that very procedure thousands and thousands of times -- so many times he was on autopilot and not really focusing on it. Thankfully, the consequences were minor -- just a little teasing from his fellow officers and the cost of a new spare.

I'm not going to say that your average SASS shooter has better gun handling skills than your average USPSA shooter. I will say that SASS focuses more on safety than any shooting organization I have ever been around, and with generally excellent results. Despite over 100,000 per year participating in matches, many of them new to firearms and the shooting sports, there has never been a serious injury.

Gunpacker
December 20, 2005, 11:26 AM
I am a CAS shooter, and this accident has changed my mind about shooting a single action pistol with one hand. I have seen all kinds of accidents happen in the workplace and in normal life. One thing I have learned is that if it can happen, it will happen. Many CAS shooters have experimented with their guns since learning of this accident to see if it is a likely accident. It is, IMO, and that of many other posters elsewhere.
My Rugers are 5 1/2 inch, and are muzzle heavy. A 7 1/2 inch would be even more muzzle heavy. If one simply concedes that a shooter might lose control of the grip of his firearm while performing the act of thumb cocking it, while only his fingers only are controlling the grip, then the scenario is frightfully possible. A 4 3/4 barrel is better balanced, and may be a better choice for CAS because of this.
If the hand loses control with the gun cocked and the finger in the trigger guard, the gun will often fire when the gun rotates down, with the maximum pressure on the trigger occurring when the barrel has rotated past vertical toward the shooter. This becomes even more dangerous (if that is possible) with a trigger lightened by spring kits or action work.
Small hands, inexperience, weather, etc, make the possibility of loss of control more likely.
This is a tragic accident. It should make CAS organizations concerned. IMO, they should reexamine the shooting scenarios that they use.
Personally, I have been involved in shooting SA revolvers for many years, and this scenario never occurred to me. I don't recall any written description of this type of event. I am surprised that it hasn't occurred long before, and that it is not taught as a safety problem.
Obviously, a novice shooter is more likely to have a problem of any kind, but that doesn't rule out experienced shooters from having it. Single action grips are not the most positive for grip IMO, and this could happen to anyone.
I believe that this accident will, or should, have far reaching effects.

jcs271
December 20, 2005, 12:18 PM
There is also a darker option. I once responded to a call where a fella had fired a few shots "target shooting" then "accidentally" killed himself. Ultimately we discovered that he had major emotional issues but he was thoughtful enough to try and collect on an insurance policy for his kids.

Have also worked two very curious fatal car crashes that may have been suicide/insurance cases.

Very hard to prove, the guys saves some stress on the family AND they get insurance money.

Not nearly as rare as you may think!

Gunpacker
December 20, 2005, 12:30 PM
Some folks see the darker side in everything. This event was so "off the wall" to eliminate that possibility IMO. It does a disservice to the victim of this event to even think of anything other than accident IMO. There are lots of less crude and painful ways to shoot yourself.:(
As stated, the gun will likely fire if control is lost as I described, but the point of impact is extremely unknown. The likelihood of being killed would be way too low for someone bent on suicide. Again, IMO.

Texfire
December 20, 2005, 01:06 PM
Many CAS shooters have experimented with their guns since learning of this accident to see if it is a likely accident. It is, IMO, and that of many other posters elsewhere. My Rugers are 5 1/2 inch, and are muzzle heavy. A 7 1/2 inch would be even more muzzle heavy. If one simply concedes that a shooter might lose control of the grip of his firearm while performing the act of thumb cocking it, while only his fingers only are controlling the grip, then the scenario is frightfully possible. A 4 3/4 barrel is better balanced, and may be a better choice for CAS because of this.
If the hand loses control with the gun cocked and the finger in the trigger guard, the gun will often fire when the gun rotates down, with the maximum pressure on the trigger occurring when the barrel has rotated past vertical toward the shooter. This becomes even more dangerous (if that is possible) with a trigger lightened by spring kits or action work.

I tried to replicate this with my 5-1/2" Beretta Stampedes, and it did it every time. And this is with stock triggers. Not sure what the answer is.

Tex

Old Fuff
December 20, 2005, 02:50 PM
There are many situations and circumstances where a single-action revolver can be fired while being cocked, and particularly so if the revolver has the original Colt style lockwork. But most of them require that the trigger finger be inside the trigger guard while the cocking process is going on. The answer is to get one's finger outside the trigger guard while doing the cocking. This may slow someone down a bit, but if this is within a game context it doesn't matter.

jdkelly
December 20, 2005, 02:59 PM
I find it difficult to attend any other type of organized shooting competition, because no other group is anywhere near as anal about safety as SASS is.---FNB

I'm not trying to say that SASS shooters are "safer" than IDPA or USPSA shooters, as a general rule.---FNB

It seems you disagree with yourself.


Respectfully,

jdkelly

Father Knows Best
December 20, 2005, 03:01 PM
It seems to me that you are trying to pick a fight. At the risk of feeding a troll, I will respond.

If you read my responses again, you will see that one refers to the organization, and the other to the participants. My point is that SASS as an organization -- with a rulebook -- places a much greater emphasis on safety than any other shooting sport sanctioning body. That does NOT, however, mean that the people who take part in SASS are necessarily any safer than the people who take part in other shooting disciplines. You have a wide range in both.

Do you feel better now?

Texfire
December 20, 2005, 03:15 PM
There are many situations and circumstances where a single-action revolver can be fired while being cocked, and particularly so if the revolver has the original Colt style lockwork. But most of them require that the trigger finger be inside the trigger guard while the cocking process is going on. The answer is to get one's finger outside the trigger guard while doing the cocking. This may slow someone down a bit, but if this is within a game context it doesn't matter.

The gamers would fuss over anything that slows them down.

I understand where you are coming from, but to present an opposing viewpoint, if you remove your finger from the triggerguard while cocking a single action one-handed aren't you more likely to drop it, thereby increasing the safety hazard? That leaves you with two or three fingers that are holding the grip while the index finger lays down the side and the thumb cocks the hammer. Seems like that's asking alot of manual dexderity.

Personally, I am really weak with my right hand and am unlikely to try shooting gunfighter, or one-handed with either hand for that matter. But I'm not all people and we run smack dab into the conflict between collective safety versus individual responsibility. You have to have a set of common rules for the safety of the group, but when does the responsibility of the individual to know their limitations kick in?

Tex

Old Fuff
December 20, 2005, 03:57 PM
First of all, I agree with your views regarding using both hands on one gun.

If I warp my 3 lower fingers around the handle, with my trigger finger along side of the trigger guard, I have no problem cocking a conventional size S.A. revolver. While I have done the shoot-two-revolver-at-the-same-time trick, I don't do it very often, and prefer to do this with double-action guns, because they are easier to hold on to.

In my view (which doesn't mean much) "trick" shooting and questionable stunts shouldn't be part of CAS. This is a game that uses live ammunition and people with very varied levels of gun-handling skill. Also, from a historical perspective, very few of the 19th century gun fighters did this sort of thing.

How SASS handles the issue will be up to them.

Edited to add: If you have your finger outside of the trigger guard while using a six-gun with a transfer bar safety, you may lose control of the revolver or even drop it, but the safety will prevent a discharge, so long as the trigger isn't being held back. Food for thought.

jdkelly
December 20, 2005, 06:15 PM
I find it difficult to attend any other type of organized shooting competition, because no other group is anywhere near as anal about safety as SASS is.---FNB
Your quote above implies that you feel less safe at shooting events other then SASS.

Your quote below implies that SASS shooters are no more safe then IDPA or USPSA shooters.

I'm not trying to say that SASS shooters are "safer" than IDPA or USPSA shooters, as a general rule.---FNB
So if the shooters at a SASS, IDPA or USPAS event all pose an equal danger, as implied in your 2nd quote, then logic would seem to demand that something other then the shooting portion of the events scares you, or your statements are in conflict.



That does NOT, however, mean that the people who take part in SASS are necessarily any safer than the people who take part in other shooting disciplines.---FBN
Yet you say you feel safer at SASS events as stated in your quote at the top of this post, even though SASS shooters are no more safe. If there is no greater danger at one event, then you're no safer at the other event.

It seems to me that you are trying to pick a fight. At the risk of feeding a troll, I will respond.---FNB
I'm no more a troll then you are stupid, I assume that neither of discriptions describe either of us. So lets not call each other names.
I'm pointing out a logic error in your conflicting statements. And it's as simple as this:

If as you said "I'm not trying to say that SASS shooters are "safer" than IDPA or USPSA shooters, as a general rule" then by your own words you are at least as safe at IDPA or USPSA events then you are at a SASS event.

Do you feel better now?---FNB
Yes, much better thank you.

Respectfully,

jdkelly

Father Knows Best
December 20, 2005, 09:34 PM
Sheesh. :banghead:

omnivore75
December 20, 2005, 09:59 PM
This is just one of those things. I honestly try to be as careful with any weapon as I possibly can because I was almost killed by an accidental discharge in 95. 12GA 000 buck 3 in mag. BOOM right beside my freakin ear.:eek::fire: :uhoh: I could'nt hear for a week. Would have literally blown my head off and left a bloody stump if it had been 2 in over and I was being as careful then as I am now. Just an accident. Think about all the times you have picked up a weapon and crossed ur body or abdomen in some part with the muzzle. Sure we all try to avoid it keep our fingers out of trigger guard, keep weapon pionted in safe direction, be very careful on the draw, etc., etc. People are people and guns are mechanical physical objects and sometimes we both screw up and tragedy occurrs, but thats part of life. Many people have died doing what they love to do and it is sad, but would it be better if the person never leaves the house and dies alone never having done the tings they wanted to do? I don't think so.

jdkelly
December 21, 2005, 06:10 AM
Sheesh. :banghead: ---FNB

Hope it helps.:)

jdkelly

waynesan
December 21, 2005, 07:12 PM
Here is a link to the article in todays Kingsport Times News ( Kingsport TN )about Chad's death. He just moved to Florida two weeks ago to take a new job. He was a lifetime NRA member and taught classes on reloading at Cherokee Rod and Gun Club for some time before his recent move.

www.timesnews.net/article.dna?_StoryID=3582011

Gunpacker
December 21, 2005, 10:13 PM
FWIW, I was reminded by a post on the SASSwire of another CAS shooter that died a year or two ago that was out shooting alone. He was found dead, I believe with a wound in his abdomen. He was a "Duelist" shooter, and may have been practicing that scenario. I think that his obituary said that no one had any idea of what had happened. I do know that speculation of his revolver spinning and going off accidentally was not mentioned. I guess that a lot of folks may have speculated that he committed suicide, but no one had a reason why.
IMO, this may have been at least the second death caused by this type of accident. As I stated earlier, this accident SHOULD have far reaching impact. Safety in handgun use has to take this into account forever more, IMO.
I plan to check out my other firearms to see if they too are candidates for this type of thing. Especially my 6 in revolvers. I think that a grip heavy gun is far less likely to be a problem, but even a DA revolver gets cocked by some. I usually shoot only DA, but my family and everyone that I speak to of gun safety will be informed of this possibility.
I remain amazed that this has not become known as a highly dangerous problem sooner. Folks been shooting these things since 1836. Even earlier single shot pistols would be suspect.

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