My rant on pro-gun biggots


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Yohan
April 6, 2003, 06:23 PM
I think it is just a tad bit hypocritical that some High Roaders want the protection of the 2nd amendment but wince at the thought of a black/hispanic person who happen to dress a certain way getting the rights to own a gun. I guess this proves to us that racism is still a problem, even within the boundaries of THR. How will THR members work to achieve more gun rights if we are fighting within? I can't believe how idiotic and narrow minded some of these people are being. First of all, just look at the large number of people who are quick to jump to conclusions about the group of people who were handling the "Colt Python". All of a sudden, some THR members are acting like they were there, giving accurate descriptions of their dress, and even the job they had. The fact that some people are being racist, is made worse by the fact that people are so quick to jump to conclusions. Before we criticize an anti-gun person for being a narrow-minded idiot, I think we should all take a good hard look at the mirror. Even as I'm writing this, I can see people like CZ-75 who argue that black people who dress a certain way will never be able to afford a decent gun, but arguing with people like him is like trying to teach a blind person how to draw- it's just a damn waste of time.

</rant>:rolleyes: :cuss: :fire:

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MitchSchaft
April 6, 2003, 06:39 PM
Racism is not going away, now get down from your high horse, mr. teenager.

cratz2
April 6, 2003, 06:43 PM
Well... I can't speak for everyone, but I'm certainly of the opinion that anyone that answers the questionaire honestly and accurately and passes the background check should be able to walk him with himself or herself a new fancy shootin' iron.

At the same time, if you read my post about the two guys, who happened to be black, that wanted to buy 10 Glock 20s after deciding that the 10mm would be best at shooting through auto metal and auto glass and also inquired about shooting through 'police kevlar', I also think that a shop should have the right to refuse to sell to anyone they wish.

I'm not racist and it has been a very long time since I've ever been called such but a certain segment of population, acting a certain way and dressing a certain way talking in a certain manner fail to convey themselves as folks that positively contribute to society. Do I think this should prevent them from owning or carrying a firearm? No. Should they be upset when people react to them in a certain manner? Nope!

Jesse H
April 6, 2003, 06:55 PM
I didn't really get into the other post...but I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I am a racist. It would be naive to think we were all equal...whether it be race, gender, intelligence, physical attributes, etc.

To me, being racist does not mean being a bigot. Being racist just recognizes the differences.

PsyWarrior
April 6, 2003, 06:57 PM
At the same time, if you read my post about the two guys, who happened to be black, that wanted to buy 10 Glock 20s after deciding that the 10mm would be best at shooting through auto metal and auto glass and also inquired about shooting through 'police kevlar', I also think that a shop should have the right to refuse to sell to anyone they wish.

I'm not racist and it has been a very long time since I've ever been called such but a certain segment of population, acting a certain way and dressing a certain way talking in a certain manner fail to convey themselves as folks that positively contribute to society. Do I think this should prevent them from owning or carrying a firearm? No. Should they be upset when people react to them in a certain manner? Nope!


Right on Cratz. The problem I see is not the color of their skin, or how they were dressed. The problem I see is what they were discussing, how they were discussing it, and the quantity of firearms they were intending to buy combined with their mode of dress. This is a definite sign of being gang bangers. If I owned the gun shop/booth at the gun show, I would not only deny them a sale, but would notify law enforcement. In their discussion of penetrating police kevlar and using them to fire through vehicles, they are right then and there in commission of a crime in that they are planning a crime. (conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime) This has nothing to do with race or tastes in music or dress. It has to do with common sense.

We constantly hear about "Driving while black". But a white man driving a mercedes through the slums will draw just as much attention as a black man driving a crappy blue nova through hollywood. One needs to use common sense and open one's eyes. If something is soooooooo out of place and sooooooo obvious as this is, then one should take action from it being carried any farther.

Kaylee
April 6, 2003, 07:04 PM
Yohan..

... the gist I got from that thread wasn't racist at all... but it did involve discrimination.

Discrimination based off of voluntary associations and behaviors.

That ain't racism, and it ain't bigotry. It's simple observation.
If a kid is acting like a gangster, dressing like a gangster.. hey... maybe he's really a gangster, ya know? Don't matter what color his skin is -- what matters is how he's carrying himself.

Of course, around here it's more likely he's a bored farm kid wannabe who's not seen more than a hundred square yards of asphalt in his life, but up where said incident happened, I've no clue.

Hrmm.. I guess some folks even throw a cow when you take MLK at his word and really do judge a person by the content of their character.. whether you care about the color of their skin or not.


-K

ed dixon
April 6, 2003, 07:54 PM
Yohan, members are here out of an interest in guns and gun rights. Period. That allows for an otherwise diverse membership. I have no expectations that there aren't bigots here. Wife beaters, cheats, thieves, etc., etc. I'm sure I pass them in the supermarket or at the mall every day. That's life and that's here. I've been very impressed by many members at THR and not only by their technical expertise. Many seem to be thoughtful, patient, decent folks that I would expect lead interesting lives outside of this cyber community. Some few others come across as sour cranks, looking more to insult someone else's point of view than to present one of their own. I don't know if you're actually a teenager or not, but I think your concern about this is reasonable and hardly sanctimonious ("high horse"). Hell, I've read impassioned debates about rayguns and bigfoot. The sad thing is it stops surprising you as you get older, my friend. Ed

Yohan
April 6, 2003, 08:03 PM
How does having an opinion suddenly locate me on top of a horse? Just for the record, I hate horses :neener: :neener:

MitchSchaft
April 6, 2003, 08:50 PM
He is a teen and has used his last get outta jail free card a long time ago!:neener:

Yohan
April 6, 2003, 08:52 PM
Well, if you want to throw me in jail for having an opinion, go for it :rolleyes: :neener:

JohnKSa
April 6, 2003, 08:53 PM
Yohan,

If you take pains to dress and act like an undesirable segment of the population then you shouldn't be irritated when people treat you as if you are, in fact, a member of that segment of the population.

I'm not talking about ethnicity, either...

Let's look at this another way. Let's say I shaved my head and started wearing clothing marked "KKK" and put a big confederate flag bumpersticker on my car.

Now, I'm not a racist at all. I'm just your average electrical engineer. Never been in trouble with the law past traffic tickets. I work with people of all ethnicity and don't have any problems at all with that. In fact, all in all, I'm just about the least racist person I know.

So, would a black person be justified in treating me differently?

Remember, I'm not a racist, I just like to dress like one...

I await your answer.

DeltaElite
April 6, 2003, 08:57 PM
I hate everyone and don't trust anyone. ;)
Give it a try, it removes the bothesome task of targeting one group or ethnicity. :neener:


Bigotry is everywhere, including here.
We all have our preconceptions, whether they be racial, cutural, etc.
How you react to them is important, whether you outgrow them is important.
Remember, some people grow up, some just grow old. :D

XLMiguel
April 6, 2003, 09:02 PM
Discrimination (fron the Latin, discrimino) to know the difference.

Most accept that discrimination based on prejudice is wrong, but based on observation, experience, situational awareness, and so on is just good sense.

There are parts of town where my pasty middle-aged face in my BMW makes me a target of economic opportunity, racism has little (if nothing) to do with it, even if I was wearing a FUBU hoodie over baggy shorts, watch cap, shades, and the latest Air Nike whatevers (obviously, I can't pass). Yes, I know the difference. I discriminate.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinon. Just don't get your Haines/Joe Boxers/. . . in a twist if someone challenges or wants you explain or substanitate your position. It's part of being an adult.

Chris Rhines
April 6, 2003, 09:06 PM
Let's get our terms straight. 'Racism' has a very specific definition - it is the belief that certain races are genetically superior to others. Bigotry, intolerance, and discrimination are different things.

The belief that individuals are both different and inherently unequal is not racism; it's just common sense.

I didn't give either of the referenced threads more than a cursory glance, but I do kinda get the gist of them. Probably the best thing to do is just judge each case on its individual merits, and use some rudimentary thought. I know lots of shooters who don't fit the cultural mold of clean-cut yuppiedom, there's nothing wrong with that. It goes the same way for dealers, as well; I have no problem with a gun dealer declining to sell to obvious criminal types, but a dealer who has a blanket policy of "No sales to Ethnic Group X" needs an earful. Several.

- Chris

gudel
April 6, 2003, 09:23 PM
Yohan has a point. couldn't have said it better. just because they have not-so-nice dress like the yuppy do, it doesn't mean they're criminals.

now i gotta dress up in suit to just buy a gun, otherwise the dealer won't sell it to me. :rolleyes:

JerryN
April 6, 2003, 09:31 PM
JohnKSa, excellent description of the real problem.

Punks like to dress like gangstas, even here in the middle of cow country. So when we see criminals on the evening news whacking innocents and then we see somebody in front of our house wearing what amounts to a criminal uniform, we get a little anxious.

Thats not discrimination, thats common sense. When I see somebody dressed like an urban punk criminal, I think "Look, there is someone dressed like an urban punk criminal". I don't often think, "Look there is someone dressed like an urban punk criminal who is probably innocent and who just might blow my head off with a glock 20 if I'm wrong about the innocent thing"

You wear the uniform of scumbags, you're going to be looked at like you might be one. Don't blame society - thats what liberals do. Take some responsibility for your actions and desire to dress like an urban terrorist.

As they say here in the rural part of America, don't dance if you can't pay the fiddler.

DeltaElite
April 6, 2003, 09:59 PM
I get treated differently when I am at work, darn uniforms seem to attract idiots. :D

How we dress and act influences how people respond to us.
If you dress like a wannabee rap star, people will treat you as one.
If you dress like a used car salesman, people will run in terror. :D

Of course, a mature adult looks beyond the cover of the book to see what it contains, I know I do. :D

BerettaNut92
April 6, 2003, 10:14 PM
That explains why everyone thinks I'm an Operator :confused: :D

DeltaElite
April 6, 2003, 10:17 PM
Wait a minute, is this why I keep getting those Rainbow stickers handed to me? ;)

thumbtack
April 6, 2003, 10:19 PM
Of course, a mature adult looks beyond the cover of the book to see what it contains, I know I do.

Yeah, and in a perfect world we all would have time to.

DeltaElite
April 6, 2003, 10:28 PM
Yeah, and in a perfect world we all would have time to.

You can make time for things that really matter.
If superficial bigotry is all you want to see, then you will only put in the amount of time necessary to support your superficial bigotry.
Funny that a cynical cop is lecturing others on not being a bigot. ;)

JohnKSa
April 6, 2003, 10:36 PM
As far as looking past the cover...

How many of you introduce yourself to every skinhead you see to find out if he's really a racist or maybe just likes the way the KKK logo looks on a leather jacket?

How many of you try to get to know every gang-banger type to see if he dresses like that because he's in a gang or maybe just because he's a misunderstood youth?

If a person fashions himself to be the dregs of society by the clothes he chooses to wear and the appearance he chooses to present, I am not going to try to prove that he really doesn't know what he's doing. I'm just going to give him a wide berth.

Look, a black person can't help being black, a white person can't help being white. You don't get to pick your ethnicity.

You DO get to pick what kind of appearance you present to the world. I'm not going to assume that because a person is of a particular ethnicity or because they don't dress like they are off the pages of GQ that they're a criminal. But, if they try to LOOK like a gangsta/skinhead/whatever, I'm going to humor them by assuming they ARE.

Yohan
April 6, 2003, 10:38 PM
Yohan,

If you take pains to dress and act like an undesirable segment of the population then you shouldn't be irritated when people treat you as if you are, in fact, a member of that segment of the population.

I'm not talking about ethnicity, either...

Let's look at this another way. Let's say I shaved my head and started wearing clothing marked "KKK" and put a big confederate flag bumpersticker on my car.

Now, I'm not a racist at all. I'm just your average electrical engineer. Never been in trouble with the law past traffic tickets. I work with people of all ethnicity and don't have any problems at all with that. In fact, all in all, I'm just about the least racist person I know.

So, would a black person be justified in treating me differently?

Remember, I'm not a racist, I just like to dress like one...

I await your answer.

Show me pictures of you driving around wearing a white robe and with a shirt that says KKK. My guess is you won't have the guts to do it. :rolleyes:

JohnKSa
April 6, 2003, 10:44 PM
Show me pictures of you driving around wearing a white robe and with a shirt that says KKK. My guess is you won't have the guts to do it.
You missed the point. In fact, I'm astounded that it's possible to miss the point so COMPLETELY.

I will say that I understand much better where you are coming from now...

MitchSchaft
April 6, 2003, 10:56 PM
I will say that I understand much better where you are coming from now...

DingDingDing! :neener:

mdsteele
April 6, 2003, 10:56 PM
You're just another "product" of our Gubberment Indoctrination Project called "public school".:rolleyes:

Hopefully, one day you will see things as they really are.

Being a "student" doesn't make you smart or enlightened.

MitchSchaft
April 6, 2003, 10:58 PM
Being a "student" doesn't make you smart or enlightened

That was my point with the "high horse" comment I made. I just don't have the tact that most people do.:cool:

CZ-75
April 6, 2003, 11:05 PM
Even as I'm writing this, I can see people like CZ-75 who argue that black people who dress a certain way will never be able to afford a decent gun, but arguing with people like him is like trying to teach a blind person how to draw- it's just a damn waste of time.

I think I was making a point about Hispanic illegal immigrants, who have no command of the language nor sufficient legal status here to get or keep a decent job.

I don't think I mentioned blacks, but I would go on to say that blacks who speak "ebonics" won't get the same kind of job as one who speaks something closer to standard English. They would still do better than illegals, no matter how they speak, since they are both citizens and sufficiently versed in the culture to understand English. Of course, they could have a high level of education, but I'd still make the point that, ceteris paribus, the individual who speaks better English will do better.

Either group, when dressing like criminals, would seem hard pressed to find decent employment.

People w/o decent employment don't usually buy thousand dollar handguns, not w/o robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Before you accuse me of A) considering those who own Colt Pythons to be criminals or B) labeling those w/o decent employment as "robbers," I own a Python and "robbing Peter to pay Paul" is a colloquial phrase meaning to short one debt to pay another. Considering the denseness of your previous posts, both on the board and via PM, I felt the need to state this.

Carry on with your obtuse postings. :rolleyes:

I find it hard to type when my sheet keeps getting in the way. I think I need to cut the eyeholes bigger, too.:D

LiquidTension
April 6, 2003, 11:18 PM
Yohan: "...arguing with people like him is like trying to teach a blind person how to draw- it's just a damn waste of time."

And arguing with Yohan is like competing in the Special Olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.

Mike Irwin
April 6, 2003, 11:22 PM
Hey, I'm a big fat white rednecky type guy...

Where can I get a REALLY powerful rifle that will let me punch through kevlar at 500 meters so I can keep "THOSE PEOPLE" (you know, the ones with windbreakers with 3 letters on the back) away from the perimeter of my "farm" (you know, the one I keep hidden from the black helicopters with all the surplus camouflage netting). A man's gotta protect his nation... er his farm, don't you know.

It would be REALLY good if it shot exploding bullets, too, so I can take care of those black helicopters when they get too low and start disturbing my disciples... er.... farm hands...

Anyone want to sell me a rifle if I come to YOUR table talking like that?

Anyone?

natedog
April 6, 2003, 11:32 PM
LiquidTension- LOL :D

CZ-75
April 6, 2003, 11:34 PM
"...arguing with people like him is like trying to teach a blind person how to draw- it's just a damn waste of time."


Yohan is bigoted against blind people.




Sounds like a familiar line of "reasoning." :rolleyes:


Crying racism is so much easier than actually thinking.

Yohan
April 6, 2003, 11:55 PM
CZ-75- you win :rolleyes:
If this is what the high road stands for, I'm outta here

(And LiquidTension, that joke is about a year old- haven't you found a picture that goes along with it? :neener:)

CZ-75
April 7, 2003, 12:00 AM
I'm outta here





:D :D :D


Average IQ went up 10 points.

:evil: :evil: :evil:

Malone LaVeigh
April 7, 2003, 12:07 AM
Carry on with your obtuse postings. This from the guy that accused me of being "close" to the KKK because I talked about growing up in an area where the Klan was still a force. Sauce for the goose, if you ask me...

pax
April 7, 2003, 12:20 AM
Posted by LawDog a few days ago:

KNOCK OFF THE PERSONAL ATTACKS!

Jumping Judas Priest on a flaming pogo stick, I swear to whatever God may be listening I have never, in all my born days, come across anybody as bloody bull-headed and iron-assed as this group.

Do I have to come to your house and beat the words: "No Personal Attacks" into your foreheads with a tire tool? Is it going to jolly well require an extended session with a tattoo needle to get my point across?

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

Lights OUT.

Hmph. He was right. I'm disappointed in a lot of you.

pax

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