Concealed Carry Permit


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perryjo
December 20, 2005, 01:25 PM
Hello fellow responsible American gun owners,

I applied for my Concealed Carry permit in the State of Texas two years ago, and I was declined because I was on anxiety medication. I voluntarily (upfront) disclosed it on my CCW application, and believe I am being treated unfairly, and denied the right to protect my family and myself.

My twenty one year old sister in law (who leads a questionable lifestyle) was approved for a CCW. She also recently was arrested for outstanding traffic warrants.

I have prior law enforcement experience, and am a responsible thirty something family man; and the state I live in is denying me my 2nd Amendment right to protect myself and those I love.

Can anyone give me help, advice, or guidance?

God bless America!
John in Texas

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Thefabulousfink
December 20, 2005, 01:32 PM
All I can think of is try applying again, mabey with a note from a Doc that you are mentally stable. Trying to get the Gov to change it's mind on something like criminal charges or mental insability can be a long and difficult process. However it would be worth it to try and get this changed considering how limited your rights become if the Gov thinks that you are unstable.

Good Luck,


you'll need it.

Carlos
December 20, 2005, 02:00 PM
Reapply and see what happens. Two years is a long time.

If you're declined again, I would fight. Having anxiety is not a mental health illness that should screw your right to own a gun.

Car Knocker
December 20, 2005, 02:06 PM
Write on the chalkboard 100 times:

Volunteering information that is not required is often counterproductive.


While tff made a good suggestion, I would, if it were me, get an attorney involved before submitting another application. The reason? If you have two denied applications to fight, the bureaucracy will be just that much more entrenched and unwilling to reverse themselves and admit error. Texas has a very active firearms community and there should be several attorneys who the Texas organizations can recommend. Good luck in your fight.

WT
December 20, 2005, 02:23 PM
I like Car Knockers idea. A good attorney with connections is a very valuable asset. Be well prepared this time.

perryjo
December 20, 2005, 02:25 PM
What type of attorney would handle this issue?

It's not a Criminal Matter though I am being treated like one by the state...

The-Fly
December 20, 2005, 02:28 PM
plan b: apply for a utah or florida permit.

HighVelocity
December 20, 2005, 02:35 PM
perryjo,

Please go sign up at www.texaschlforum.com and post your question there. There are a folks there that are very knowledgeable in this area.

RavenVT100
December 20, 2005, 03:08 PM
I am pretty sure that Texas stipulates that you need a note from your doctor if you have had some kind of mental health problem.

I always thought it was limited to severe problems, not something stupid like anxiety.

James T Thomas
December 20, 2005, 03:31 PM
Perhaps you might have another exam by your prescribing physican whereby you will be taken off of the medication, thus clearing your medical records.

This concept touches on what is currently going on in our nations public education system through the American Psychological Association and other mental health agencies.
I'm referring to the "Freedom Commission on Mandatory Mental Health "Screening." HR 181 Parental Consent Act. The federal government Health and Human Services Department.
Our children and grandchildren are and have been classified through the school system; government according to those who desperately want control of society, as "abnormal." Or some other benign wording, that will sharply impact their lives throughout adulthood.

Read another forum where the poster is considered "crazy" because he locks his house door, or carries a firearm for protection. Just a little manipulation of wording, ambiguties, and definitons, and much of the future generation has already, without our even being aware of it, become restricted.
One of the flags for the screening given, is, if the unfortuate child lists that they have a religious belief. Or a belief in God. ..."Crazy."

The price of freedom is truly, unending vigilance.

RavenVT100
December 20, 2005, 04:20 PM
As I suspected, we may not be hearing the whole story, or perryjo misinterpreted what he was being asked. Texas law considers you unable to exercise the proper judgement for a CHL if:

(e) The following constitutes evidence that a person has a psychiatric
disorder or condition described by Subsection (d)(1):
(1) involuntary psychiatric hospitalization in the preceding
five-year period;
(2) psychiatric hospitalization in the preceding two-year period;
(3) inpatient or residential substance abuse treatment in the
preceding five-year period;
(4) diagnosis in the preceding five-year period by a licensed
physician that the person is dependent on alcohol, a controlled
substance, or a similar substance; or
(5) diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person
suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition
consisting of or relating to:
(A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;
(B) bipolar disorder;
(C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect,
or brain injury;
(D) dissociative identity disorder;
(E) intermittent explosive disorder; or
(F) antisocial personality disorder.

I am by no means a "mental health expert," but I recognize A through F and anxiety is nothing compared to any of them. For instance, disassociative identity disorder is what a layperson would refer to as multiple personalities.

So either perryjo made a mistake or he has something that is more than just anxiety. Or I am misinterpreting what I've read.

Zundfolge
December 20, 2005, 04:32 PM
(B) bipolar disorder;
That might be why he's on anti-anxiety medication.


At any rate the lessons learned here are:
1) Never volunteer any information.
2) Never see a mental health professional voluntarily.

perryjo
December 20, 2005, 04:36 PM
Raven,

Stop being such a paranoid, that could be considered an illness too.

I DO NOT fall under ANY of the disorders that you have listed. I AM NOT bipolar, nor any other...

john

RavenVT100
December 20, 2005, 04:38 PM
perryjo, me, paranoid? :D

Doesn't DPS have to give you a reason for why your application was rejected? If so, get that info and take it to an attorney. I really don't think this is going to be a big deal for you.

bakert
December 20, 2005, 04:40 PM
I believe RavenVT has it right. There is no reason to disclose anxiety medication anyway. Don't think that's considered a mental problem. I know a number of people that have committed themselves for alcoholism and other things and also take anxiety medication that have carry permits.

perryjo
December 20, 2005, 04:48 PM
Raven, do you know what type of attorney would handle this? I know it's not a criminal matter....

RavenVT100
December 20, 2005, 04:51 PM
A lawyer that is familiar with the CHL process is what you need. It might be a criminal lawyer or another type of lawyer. I am sure there are several different ones in Texas to choose from, given the prevalence of gun ownership in your region. I'd ask around.

I highly doubt you will not eventually get your CHL.

GhostRider66
December 20, 2005, 05:02 PM
It's my understanding there is an appeals procedure. I will research and post it when I find it. Of course, given the time lapsed since the original application, you may have to reapply, be denied again and then go for the appeal.

GhostRider66
December 20, 2005, 05:15 PM
Found this here:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf#page=55

Q: If I spent time in a psychiatric care facility in the 1980s, will I be eligible
for a license?
A: Eligibility for a concealed handgun license depends on your current
diagnosis. Past psychiatric treatment will not necessarily make you
ineligible. You should attach a letter from a licensed psychiatrist stating
that your "condition is in remission and is not reasonably likely to
develop at a future time," as the concealed handgun law states.

But here is the really good stuff:

http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=37&pt=1&ch=6&rl=32

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER C PROCEDURES ON DENIAL OF LICENSE
RULE 6.32 Request for Hearing; Administrative Review of Denial

Good luck!!:)

GoBrush
December 20, 2005, 10:58 PM
perry:

Check out this web site they may beable to help? Maybe find a Doc in your area that is pro 2nd amendment to write a note?

Good Luck

GoBrush

http://www.dsgl.org/

ziadel
December 20, 2005, 11:02 PM
my CCW references were all asked if I had ever even SEEN a phychiatric professional for ANY reason.


they all said no. :cool:

FireBreather01
December 21, 2005, 12:24 AM
Admit nothing, deny everything, and submit evidence to the contrary!!!

RavenVT100
December 21, 2005, 09:45 AM
my CCW references were all asked if I had ever even SEEN a phychiatric professional for ANY reason.

That's wrong and deeply unethical. Did they also ask if you had ever spoken to a lawyer for any reason whatsoever? :rolleyes:

El Tejon
December 21, 2005, 09:50 AM
1. This would never happen in Texas!

2. It is within your best interests to contact an attorney that specializes in criminal defense/administrative law at once. Best wishes.

I can tell you what I usually tell my guys: if you believe that the problem is in the past then have a new evaluation. Submit this evaluation (with the necessary releases) with your application. This has worked for me several times.

RavenVT100
December 21, 2005, 09:52 AM
Tejon, in Indiana, do they care about this?

If a person has been to counseling or some other temporary thing and has never taken medication or gotten diagnosed with anything, are they actually going to try and dig for that?

It seems incredible that they'd pry for that kind of info, especially considering that it is protected by strict privacy law. I happen to know a family member who was in counseling for breaking up with her boyfriend, and she was issued an indiana CWP with no hassle whatsoever.

cz75bdneos22
December 21, 2005, 11:41 PM
Reapply and see what happens. Two years is a long time.

If you're declined again, I would fight. Having anxiety is not a mental health illness that should screw your right to own a gun.


well, i will have to disagree...feel free to PM for further discourse on why it could/did prevent you from a CHL...BTW, i am interested in your particular case's details as i may be in the same situ due to brain surgery i had in November...see you soon.;)

cz75bdneos22
December 21, 2005, 11:58 PM
That might be why he's on anti-anxiety medication.


At any rate the lessons learned here are:
1) Never volunteer any information.
2) Never see a mental health professional voluntarily.

Sir, thanks for sharing your opinion, but it does nobody any good to suggest not "seeing" a mental health professional..(voluntary or involuntary). for the sake of information, i say this...take it for what it's worth to you. a person who most often "needs" the intervention of a MHP, due to his/her particular mental illnesses often debilitating symptoms will not volunteer to seek treatment. Usually, the deterioration to a person's ability to function in performing activities of daily living will be so compromised as to require that person's involuntary admission to a Psychiatric treatment facility for the protection of Self/Other's. It is no joke...seeking "help" is a choice very few people make willingly...for a variety of reasons..YMMV again, if i may be of some help, i am always available thru PM. Peace.

bogie
December 22, 2005, 12:04 AM
Just curious, but what are you taking?

El Tejon
December 22, 2005, 08:16 AM
Raven, maybe, depends on the agency that you are applying to here. It's goofy because of our two step process (local, then the state po-po); some locals care, some do not (as long as voluntary).

I'm only called when there is a problem (obviously). In all cases I have handled it is a law-abiding guy (but, e.g., treated for depression as a kid or after a divorce) who puts down more info than he needs because he does not want to be seen as hiding anything ("Hey, I'm a good guy, why wouldn't the police want me to carry?") and it blows up in his face.

I tell them to get an eval and clean bill of health and then reapply (I usually call and write the po-po to tell them what is going to be done). No problems with reapplication so far.

RavenVT100
December 22, 2005, 01:01 PM
Sir, thanks for sharing your opinion, but it does nobody any good to suggest not "seeing" a mental health professional..(voluntary or involuntary).

Uh, yes it does...especially when the trouble of having seen one is going to cause you more problems than the initial reason you went.

Zundfolge
December 22, 2005, 01:45 PM
Sir, thanks for sharing your opinion, but it does nobody any good to suggest not "seeing" a mental health professional..(voluntary or involuntary)...

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion as well, but let me throw a little background in here.

I went to college and studied for many years with the intention of becoming a Mental Health Professional until I came to the realization that modern psychology is frankly as "scientific" as leaches, phrenology and witch burning.

The vast majority of all Mental Health "Professionals" fall into one of two categories:
1) Legal drug pushers.
2) Priests in the church of New Age Agnostic Relativism.

The few that are legitimate are dealing with people with real mental illness (ie: real crazy people like Schizophrenics) not just well fed, bored Americans who are "depressed" because they aren't millionares by the time they are 30, or have made up illnesses like "sexual addiction". Too often we make up illnesses so to cover for deficiencies in character so the bad person can feel good about themselves because they are just a victim of some disease. ie: "No, I'm not an immoral and unethical person, I just suffer from a disease and have no control over my immorality!" or some other such nonsense.

The pseudo science of Psychology is more and more being used by our government to give government officials an excuse to take control of the minutia of our lives (and force our children onto destructive mind altering drugs), so I cannot in good conscience recommend the services of these people.

One is likely to get more good out of discussing their problems with a member of the clergy, a friend or a bartender.

Apologies to any of you out there who do therapy for a living, but I'm not any more inclined to join your cult as I would be to become a Scientologist.



Sorry for the mini rant ... it wasn't my intention to derail this discussion.

cz75bdneos22
December 22, 2005, 02:27 PM
Uh, yes it does...especially when the trouble of having seen one is going to cause you more problems than the initial reason you went.


PM if you'd like...I'd be interested in what your toughts are in this matter.:scrutiny:

cxm
December 22, 2005, 02:31 PM
Obviously you are not in Texas...


my CCW references were all asked if I had ever even SEEN a phychiatric professional for ANY reason.


they all said no. :cool:

cz75bdneos22
December 22, 2005, 02:33 PM
Okay, you're entitled to your opinion as well, but let me throw a little background in here.

I went to college and studied for many years with the intention of becoming a Mental Health Professional until I came to the realization that modern psychology is frankly as "scientific" as leaches, phrenology and witch burning.

The vast majority of all Mental Health "Professionals" fall into one of two categories:
1) Legal drug pushers.
2) Priests in the church of New Age Agnostic Relativism.

The few that are legitimate are dealing with people with real mental illness (ie: real crazy people like Schizophrenics) not just well fed, bored Americans who are "depressed" because they aren't millionares by the time they are 30, or have made up illnesses like "sexual addiction". Too often we make up illnesses so to cover for deficiencies in character so the bad person can feel good about themselves because they are just a victim of some disease. ie: "No, I'm not an immoral and unethical person, I just suffer from a disease and have no control over my immorality!" or some other such nonsense.

The pseudo science of Psychology is more and more being used by our government to give government officials an excuse to take control of the minutia of our lives (and force our children onto destructive mind altering drugs), so I cannot in good conscience recommend the services of these people.

One is likely to get more good out of discussing their problems with a member of the clergy, a friend or a bartender.

Apologies to any of you out there who do therapy for a living, but I'm not any more inclined to join your cult as I would be to become a Scientologist.



Sorry for the mini rant ... it wasn't my intention to derail this discussion.


This subject is of interest to me as both a practitioner and the fact that i am currently undergoing treatment myself..PM if you'd like to share your views a little more specifically with me...

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