[p35]

Question for red legs out there:

I was reading a profile of a 155mm battery in Iraq. They made the comment that there's a rule of thumb that they don't fire more than a dozen rounds a day because otherwise the concussion makes the crew too disoriented and dizzy. Of course, they exceed the limit if needed in combat, but it's hard on the crew.

It seems pretty inefficient to me to get a 155mm in place and set up to only fire a dozen rounds a day. Also I suspect the damage accumulates on the crew. Isn't there some way to protect a gun crew from this?

[Yohan]

Switch out crew members? Take shifts? The concept! Isn't it baffling? :eek: !

[T.Stahl]

Replace them with German PzH2000s. Fully automatic 155mm self-propelled howitzer, capable of firing more than 12 rounds in the first minute. :D

[PsyWarrior]

A dozen rounds from 1 battery isn't bad. Remember that you have up to 20 batterys per unit. As to set up, it only takes a few minutes to set one up. Just longer to get mobile again.

Yohan, russian roullette works with a semi auto if you use snap cap and 1 live round. Have 3rd party load magazine randomly. No problem.....:what:

[Blackhawk]

Doubt it. Spotted 18 rounds of 175mm from 4 guns over a period of about 10 minutes in Vietnam. If there'd been something left worth hitting, they would have been happy to keep it coming all day. :D

They don't want to overheat their tubes, though.

[Yohan]

Psywarrior, it wouldn't be so random then, would it? :neener:

[EOD Guy]

A dozen rounds from 1 battery isn't bad. Remember that you have up to 20 batterys per unit

?????

As far as I remember, a 155mm howitzer battery contained about 6 guns. I don't know what you mean by 20 batteries per unit. An artillery battery is a subdivision of an artillery battalion, just as an infantry company is a subdivision of an infantry battalion.

[Al Thompson]

I suspect seriously that this is bad info. Ours shot a lot more than that in training.

[Jeff White]

All of the US towed howitzers I've seen on the news were the M198 155mm howitzers belonging to the Marines. The Army also uses this howitzer, but I don't think they have any in theater except maybe the two M198 batteries that support both the 101st and 82d Airborne.

I haven't seen them load any cut charges, just full charge, looked to be charge 8 red bag, which is the maximum charge you can fire. According to the TM for the M198 you can only fire around 120 full charge rounds a day without risking injury to the crew. (I don't recall the exact number off the top of my head, I can look it up if anyone is interested.) The number of rounds you can fire safely depends on what charge you are shooting.

The American 155mm howitzers use seperate loading ammunition. This means that the projectile is loaded and then the charge (which is in cloth bags, much the same way it came for the 12 pounder Napoleon cannon used in the Civil War).

There are three types of charges, green bag, white bag and red bag. Green bag has five charges, white bag has seven and red bag has eight. The charge you fire is computed by the fire direction center. You always shoot the maximum charge you have when you shoot direct fire engagements.

The concussion is amazing. Much worse then being next to the guy with the post ban AR with muzzle brake on the range :D

When they were changing my Guard unit over from Infantry to Artillery and we were doing transition training, one of the instructors pointed out just how strong the concussion was. We were at Ft McCoy WI and had been bothered by the usual flies and mosquitos...till we started shooting. The instructor asked where we thought the bugs went? Nobody knew, it was suggested that they just flew away...wrong..they were dead on the ground..the concussion killed them. We were shooting charge 4 green bag, which is one of the lightest charges you can fire.

Jeff

[Mike Irwin]

Blackhawk...

"spotted 175mm in Vietnam"

What 175 was used in Vietnam?

I thought American field arty went from 155 to 240?

[Jeff White]

Mike,
We used to have a 175mm howitzer. It was self propelled and was the longest ranged gun we had. They weren't all that accuate though. The 8 inch replaced it and the MLRS has since replaced the 8 inch, making the 155mm the biggest howitzer currently in use by US forces, even though it's still called a Medium gun.

Jeff

[Mike Irwin]

Well I'll be. I never knew that, Jeff! Thanks.

If Aberdeen Proving Ground ever reopens to civilians, maybe I'll see one of those.

[Blackhawk]

Mike, I believe they were M107s based at Ban Me Thuot in II Corps, but I don't remember the unit designation since our mission didn't normally involve artillery and we only rarely called on them.

[mons meg]

What Jeff White said...and

I was an FDC (fire direction center) computerman during my time in the USMCR. When were were in action during Desert Storm, I can't remember any fire missions where we *didn't* shoot charge 8. What happened then is what seems to happen now during a strong armor push...the fire support units have a hard time keeping up with the rapidly advancing front line. By the time we would stop the convoy and get the guns laid in (surveyed for exact positions) the heavy armor and LAIs would be so far out there all our targets they needed taken out were pushing max range for us.


Incidentally, "red bag" is charge 8 only...there are no increments for that hell powder. :what: The cannon portion of the M198 system recoils violently, and the base plate almost look as if it is going to leave the ground. Charge 8 Red, plus a RAP (rocket assisted projectile) will get you a max range of about 30K meters according to the TFT. (tabular firing table). Incidentally, charge 8 also will send a 95lb HE projectile out of the tube at around 2300-2400fps. We had a couple lucky shots on tanks, and according to the FO's, there isn't much left of a T62 when said high velocity steel chunk impacts old Russian armor. Who needs depleted uranium?

[mons meg]

Also, FYI an artillery battery is (as EOD guy stated earlier) roughly equivalent to an infantry company. Our unit, Battery F, 2/14 consisted of two gun platoons of three howitzers each, a motor transport platoon, and an HQ platoon. Normally the FDC is part of the HQ platoon, but our unit was so overstrength we were able to put together two complete FDC sections and attached them to the two gun platoons.

After we arrived at Lejeune in Dec. '90, were were given two extra howitzers, so our battery was an "augmented" 8 gun battery, as were most Marine batteries in the Gulf. This, combined with our two FDC layout, allowed us to do true "split ops", meaning we could engage two separate targets on two separate fire missions simultaneously.

We did rock the casbah over there, if I do say so myself. :)

[Dannyboy]

A Paladin battalion is made up of 4 batteries. IIRC it's 3 line batteries and a HQ battery. Each firing battery is made up pretty much the same way, 3 firing platoons with 4 guns and a HQ platoon. I'm not sure how they run their FDC ops but in MLRS, we had our own FDC tracks in each firing platoon.

As for the original question, not true. Or if it is true it's not followed at all.

[Gmac]

12 rounds???????? I was in A 1/30 arty in RVN 1969-70 and we'd put more than that on H&I targets every night in addition to supporting fire for infantry etc.Can't remember if we swabbed out the breech after every round or every three rounds but we shot a helluva lot more than 12 rounds per day, I guess that's why everyone in the battery lost his hearing.Interesting about red bag powder, we had green bag & white bag & charge 7 white bag was max. charge. This was a 155 split trail but I can't remember the model no. ( H&I target = bicycle track in jungle seen by intelligence personnel,we'd fire on the chance the bad guys might be in the vicinity)

[EOD Guy]

We used to have a 175mm howitzer.

There was no 175mm howitzer in Vietnam. The 175 was classified as a gun, not a howitzer.

[mons meg]

Interesting....this is from dictionary.com:

Howitzer:

A relatively short cannon that delivers shells at a medium muzzle velocity, usually by a high trajectory.

\How"itz*er\, n. [G. haubitze, formerly hauffnitz, Bohem. haufnice, orig., a sling.] (Mil.) (a) A gun so short that the projectile, which was hollow, could be put in its place by hand; a kind of mortar. [Obs.] (b) A short, light, largebore cannon, usually having a chamber of smaller diameter than the rest of the bore, and intended to throw large projectiles with comparatively small charges.

n : a muzzle-loading cannon with a short barrel that fires shells at high elevations for a short range [syn: mortar, trench mortar]


So by these definitions I would not consider the M198, M109, or the little M101A1 (105mm) as howitzers, since they are all breach loaded and capable of long ranges and high velocities.

[Mike Irwin]

Found a neat "action image" of the M107, as well as some websites with specifications...

Never knew this thing existed!

http://www.wohnungs-suche.com/raa/info/Equip/Images/M107.jpg

[moa]

I am quite surprised to see so much towed artillery still in use. I would have figured it would all be self-propelled by now. It is not like that is a new concept.

Anybody know why so much reliance on towed artillery? Seems to me to quite vulnerable too.

I understand from a conversation with a Nation Guard artillery officer at work, that the rule for towed artillery was "shoot and scoot". Fire three rounds per gun per mission and get the hell away. Of course, that was the concept during the Cold War in the 1980s.

Does that sound right?

[hops]

Cost as I understand it. Towed artillery is less expensive to build and maintain as self-propelled artillery.

[Al Thompson]

I would imagine most of the towed stuff is either 101st/82nd or USMC. Eaiser to deploy than SP.

Shoot and scoot would be to get away from counter battery fire.

[mons meg]

The preferred method of counter battery fire for the USMC is either the F/A-18 C/D or the AV-8B, although the M198 will do in a pinch. :D

[p35]

Since at least the Marines in Lebanon, the US has had "firefinder" radars that track a shell in flight and give the coordinates of the tube that fired it before it even reaches the target. If the other side has those, you "shoot and scoot" before they dial those coordinates into their own artillery. In a situation like Iraq, where the other side isn't trying to do counterbattery fire, movement is less urgent. I hear they are using the FireFinders to discourage the Iraqis from popping off mortar rounds at their own people.

[mons meg]

The radar is a scary thing. Works great against mortars, and really well against most heavier artillery. I say most because during exercises at 29 Palms back in '89 or so we found our current radar unable to reliably track RAP rounds, due to the extra flat trajectory. MOst times, however, a guy from the radar unit would come over and hand us a sheet of what he thought were our gun positions. They were never more than 5-10 meters off.

So naturally, during Desert Storm, Iraqi counter battery radar was a priority target for airstrikes.

[Jeff White]

The radars are much better now. We actually can adjust our own fire with the radar, making H&I and other unobserved fires much more accurate.

Towed artillery is still used because it is airmobile. Can't slingload an M109 :cool: . There is a new lightweight towed M155 coming into the system. Marines to field it in 2005 and Army in 2006. Even the wheeled SP howitzers used by other countries are too heavy to slingload.

Jeff

[Mike Irwin]

"I am quite surprised to see so much towed artillery still in use. I would have figured it would all be self-propelled by now. It is not like that is a new concept."

Cost and deployability.

You can helicopter many towed artillery pieces, something you can't do with an SP gun. At least not easily.

And, on cost, depending on the gun, 1 SPG can cost as much as 10 or more towed pieces.

[Ed]

Ok, Near as I remember there is a reg that says that you have to mask and open hatches after some amount of red bag. May be 12. This is due to the gasses created in the turrent. You also have to watch the wind direction, I saw 3 guys get med-evaced to de-pressure chambers at the Air Force Base nearby due to CO2 poisioning from the wind blowing back down the tube after lots of firing, and a mask doesn't help in that case, thats why you open the side hatches, the back is always open when firing. Towed is used for light units like someone said, so you can jump them in. If I get bored later I'll go find the FM and look up about the red bag thing.

[Jeff White]

This is from the TM on the M198 howitzer.

WARNING
When firing the M203 charge (red bag) or M203A1 charge the following restrictions must be observed:

a. Foam earplugs must be properly worn

b. No more then 12 rounds should be fired in a given 24 hour period by any one crew or one individual crew member. If more then 12 M203 series charges are fired, all personnel must stand 25 feet (7.62m) or more behind the rear of cannon and a 25-foot (7.62m) lanyard must be used.

c. A 55-inch (1.397m) clearance must exist between the breech and ground along the recoil path prior to firing at elevations in excess of 800 mils.

d. Allowable Number of Rounds Per 24-hour period - By Charge (with hearing protection)

M203 Series -- 12
M119 Series -- 32
M4 Series -- 144
M3 Series -- 1000

NOTE
These recommended limits are mutually exclusive; e.g., 12 rounds M203 series, or 32 rounds M119 series, or 144 rounds M4 series, or 1000 rounds M3 series per 24 hour continuious time period

M3 is green bag powder
M4 is white bag
M119 is an extended range white bag charge
M203 is red bag


Jeff

[Blackhawk]

Ah, yes. The loving, caring Army!

The duty restrictions are on the crewmembers, not the gun.

[Redlg155]

I've never heard of any firing restrictions on the M109 155mm howitzer crews or guns other than rate of fire restrictions, but then I got out in 96, so things may have changed. If I remember correctly it was something like 4 rds per minute for 3 minutes followed by a cool down period or 1rd per minute indefinitely. We originally had one battery of 6 guns, but then later added 2 guns for a total of 8 in 2 seperate 4 gun platoons. We also pretty much phased out the 8" guns in favor of the 155 mm guns.

What was strange to me is that when we were in Saudi/Iraq we had a battery attatched to us that we called "Saudi Battery". They still had the original short tube M109s of the vietnam era. :D

As for redbag, I don't recall firing any in Iraq. We fired mostly green and white. We also got to fire a couple Copperhead missles. :D

Good Shooting
Red

[Jeff White]

Blackhawk,
The TM has plenty of things in it that cares for the gun. The tubes are borescoped for wear every 90 days. (6 months in RC peacetime). The section chief keeps a DA Form 2408-4 Weaponns Data card that tracks every round fired by type and charge. These cards are sent to the arsenal at Watervilet New York annually, where they track the wear on every howitzer, tank cannon, and mortar tube in the military.

A good example of how closely the Army tracks this stuff is that while I was typing this post I received a Maintenance Advisory Message from Rock Island Arsenal. It's unclassified. This is the gist of it:


3. Problem Discussion:

A. Summary Of Problem. With the increase of rounds fired in Southwest Asia (SWA), the Front Split Ring located on the obturator in the breech mechanism assembly of M198 Howitzer, is spreading beyond the 3/8 inch tolerance. Due to the increased demand on the front split rings, replacement front split rings stockage levels have become very low.

B. Parts, Assembly, Or Components To Be Inspected. Front Split Ring, NSN: 1025-01-038-1192.

4. User Actions:

A. Inspection Procedures. The tolerance is listed in the Operators Manual, paragraph 3-4, Troubleshooting Procedures, Malfunction #4.

B. Correction Procedures. The Users are authorized, if they don't have replacement front split rings, to use the existing split ring until they have spread beyond the new tolerance of 7/16 inch. Note: The breech will require more effort to operate as the "spread" increases. This increase in tolerance is only authorized for emergency combat use in SWA.

Jeff

[Jeff White]

Red,
I've never heard of any restrictions on the M109 either. Of course I was a grunt for 21 years and the M198 is the only artillery I have personal experience with.

Jeff

[bogie]

I can tell y'all, from experience, that if you're standing to the side of one of the 8" guns when it goes off that you _will_ be on the ground... Good thing I was wearing plugs at the time. Bad thing was that I didn't hear the fire order (was taking a picture of the gun).

[Blackhawk]

The TM has plenty of things in it that cares for the gun. No doubt, Jeff, and thanks for the info!

Most of the TMs I encountered were for aircraft, and they didn't have caring words about the crew, unless you consider the "do this and the aircraft will crash" as caring by extension to the crew. :D

[M109A6 Paladin]

Just a note to say hello.

I read all the posts on this thread and you guys need some new updates.

I spent 8 years in artillery. I worked/fired the following howitzers: M101A1, M102, M109, M109A1, M114, M110A1 8 inch, M198, M119A1 and M109 Paladin.

The howitzer with the silencer on it is a German M109. It is NOT a Paladin. The article is located here: http://www.axtmoerder.de/index.php?p=470

There are a number of safety precautions for the crew when firing the howitzer to include use of hearing protection, both single and double protection, as well as restrictions on the types of ammo to be fired (over a period of time) and the use of a Micro-Climatic System (like air conditioning) and a bore evacuator which reduces the gasses inside the turret.

Your old red/green/white bags of propellent are going to the wayside with the new Modular Ammunition Charge System (MACS) which has one (bag) size. All you do is count 4 bags for 4 charges. There is less waste. It's a really good system.

The other long tubed M107 is a 175mm howitzer that we used into the '70s. I remember seeing them at Grafenwohr, Germany.

Gotta go! (Shot out!)

[db_tanker]

GAH!

You said Graf!

Do you remember the Schnitzel Shack? IIRC it was just down the road from tank table 12....I remember the whole company parked next to it and the exec picked up the tab for some curry schnitz on brotchen plus one of those tall-boy pepsi cans. :) We did pretty good on our table 12 run...no crew-cuts and got 1000. Only other company to do that was one of the troops from 11th ACR that year, I think.


Some damn good memories there. :)

And um...we fired a bunch more than just 12 rounds and ours might not be as big...but they sure were high pressure....I was the driver during that time and man...that was freaking bad @$$ to see that spout of flame...especially doing about 30 mph down the tank trail.

Darrell

[Langenator]

FYI...

The M198 towed 155mm howitzer is used by the following Army units:

The General Support artillery battalions of the 10th Mountain Div, 25th Infantry Div (Light), 82nd Airborne, and 101st Air Assault.

Also used by the artillery battalions in the Stryker brigades. From my understanding, the Army looked at truck mount SP 155s and truck mounted, 6-tube rocket systems (basically, half an MLRS) before settling on the M198.

And current firefinder radars are extremely good. I remember when I was in Albania (spring 99-during the Kosovo campaign), they had to adjust the scanning plane so they weren't constantly tracking rifle rounds fired into the air.

[heypete]

The howitzer with the silencer on it...

Jeeez! Silencing pistols or something for a covert operation is one thing...but silencing artillery? Incredible. I can't imagine any sort of actual valid use for this. Leaving artillery units undefended from infantry/ground attack is a bad idea, so having the silencer reduce the ability to be audibly detected from the ground doesn't make much sense.

On that note, 120mm cannons on the M1A1 family of tanks are surprisingly loud when outside (big fireball, huge concussion, sounds like a Thunderbolt of Zeus when it goes off), but are remarkably quiet inside. The entire cartridge case, with the exception of the metal base cap and 1' primer rod is combustible, and saves significantly on the amount of space spent rounds take up. I miss my tank. :/

[LeonCarr]

My Dad (Army, 25th Infantry, Cu Chi and Tay Ninh, Vietnam) saw an M107 175mm "backfire", and he said it looked like the world's largest peeled banana. Is this a common occurence? Hopefully not :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Sistema1927]

Yes, but can I get a "can of artillery smoke"?

:)

[Jeff White]

Jeeez! Silencing pistols or something for a covert operation is one thing...but silencing artillery? Incredible. I can't imagine any sort of actual valid use for this. Leaving artillery units undefended from infantry/ground attack is a bad idea, so having the silencer reduce the ability to be audibly detected from the ground doesn't make much sense.

IIRC the silencer is to eliminate noise pollution so that the training areas can still be used. Some people don't like to live near the firing point....

Jeff

[rayra]

SP vs towed - cheaper, and far more portable. particularly by air or LCAC.

and jealous of Mons meg - I was HQ FDC in 5/14, stuck in the States, while he was bustin' caps in GW1.

[IZinterrogator]

The entire cartridge case, with the exception of the metal base cap and 1' primer rod is combustible, and saves significantly on the amount of space spent rounds take up.Yes, and the metal base cap and 1' primer rod make an excellent ashtray back at the house if you can get your hands on one. :D

[RevDisk]

They made the comment that there's a rule of thumb that they don't fire more than a dozen rounds a day because otherwise the concussion makes the crew too disoriented and dizzy. Of course, they exceed the limit if needed in combat, but it's hard on the crew.

Uh. I've seen more than a dozen rounds fired in less than half an hour, let alone a full 24 hours. I think you have bad info.

We don't have much tube artillery in Iraq. A lot of the Arty guys are being turned into MP's.

[Powderman]

If you guys want more info, I can ask my son to post. He's fresh out of the sandbox, after 7 months in and around Fallujah.

He's the guy with his K-pot off.

[gbourne]

Some guys get to have all the fun!! Tell him good job powderman. The brass use to wine at Ft. Bragg everytime they dropped a gun and the chute didn't open.

I miss my M16A1.
11B1P
82nd Airborne 3/76 - 11/79.

[Oleg Volk]

How do bore evacuators function? Does anyone have a diagram?

[db_tanker]

gbourne...you were an 11 bullet-stopper? :D

Sorry...as my previous post stated, I was a DAT and proud of it.


As far as a bore evac goes...here is this I scrounged up on the net...


http://www.navytechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5404789

Hope that explains a little.

Darrell

[M109A6 Paladin]

Actually, the 10th MT Div, 82nd and 101st use the M119A1/A2 Towed Howitzers.

The 18th Airborne Corps uses the M198's. I was in the first Army unit to get them (Oct 78) before I got back to Bragg in Feb 79. I just came from 4 years on the M110A1 in Augsburg, Germany.

The M198s replaced the M114s, which I was on at Bragg before my tour in Germany.

I was the TACOM Armament LAR for the 82nd from '97-'99 before PCSing back to Germany in Feb 99. I met up with the 82nd guys again when I deployed to Kosovo in June 99.

I'm back at Rock Island as the Equipment Specialist for the M109A6 Paladin right now.

To answer the question on the 175mm tube splitting like a banana, no, that does not happen often. The tube was probably already cracked at the muzzle and through the counterbore to allow that to happen. Unless there was an in-bore explosion.

[M109A6 Paladin]

DB: Yeah I remember the imbiss at Graf. I participated in 18 field exercises there as well as 2 REFORGERs.

I think you're thinking Curry Wurst (on a bun), not Curry Schnitzel (that would be messy).

Oleg: A bore evecuator works a lot like a one way valve and sucks (most of) the gasses out of the tube as the breech opens.

[Langenator]

I could swear that the TOE for a light/airborne/air assault division has a battalion of 155mms in general support. Heavy divisions have the MLRS in the same role. Usually under the direct control of the division commander or used in the counterbattery role. The three battalions of 105mms (Paladin 155s in the heavies) in the light divisions are direct support, and are usually OPCON to one of the maneuver brigades.

I forgot about the XVIIIth Corps artillery units.

[M109A6 Paladin]

The 82nd has only M119s. There are no (active) Paladins at Bragg, (unless you count the NG).

The unit I used to belong to at Bragg (1973-74) was 1/82nd FA was M114s, but now they are at Hood and have Paladins.

Correct, the General Support would come from Corps, not Division (they like to be self-sufficient).

[Preacherman]

I still can't figure out why the USA has never bothered to develop truly long-range 155mm. artillery, as has been done by many other countries (Austria, China, South Africa, etc.). In South African service, I frequently encountered G5 and G6 artillery (mostly the towed G5 - the self-propelled G6 only came into service in the late 1980's, at the end of our "wars" with Cubans, etc. in Angola, but the first three pre-production G6's were used in action). These guns had 45-caliber barrels, used base-bleed and (more recently) rocket-assisted projectiles, and significantly outranged anything used against us. With the base-bleed shell, the effective range was over 44,000 yards, and the RAP's extend this by another 11,000 yards or so. Even at such long ranges, the guns were very, very accurate: one could call in 25-meter corrections in windage and elevation. It was the G5's that kept the Cuban airfield at Cuito Cuanavale out of action for months during the 1987/88 engagements, from over 25 miles away.

An even longer-ranged system has been developed recently, with a 52-caliber barrel, with effective range claimed to be in excess of 54,000 yards.

For those interested, information on the G5 can be found here (http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/Artillery_Systems.asp).


http://www.denel.co.za/Landsystems/G5.jpg


The G6 uses the same gun on a 6-wheeled highly mobile platform.


http://www.baesystemsomc.co.za/images/products/g6_02.jpg

[M109A6 Paladin]

The USMCs requirement for a 155mm towed has to be somewhere under/around 8000-9500 lbs (I forget the exact requirement) so it can be transported by a Blackhawk.

How much do the other guns weigh?

[Preacherman]

Yes, the G5 is waaaay heavier than that specification... over 30,000 pounds! However, that's with a really heavy chassis (designed to travel thousands of miles over African bush terrain, not just on roads), with an auxiliary power unit, and a bunch of other stuff. There's no reason in theory why the cannon part couldn't be mated to a much lighter chassis, without the bells and whistles, and come close to the US weight specification - although you'd lose a lot of the cross-country mobility and overall "toughness" of the system.

[Trebor]

Some people don't like to live near the firing point....

Better to live near the firing point than the impact zone.

[M109A6 Paladin]

"Better to live near the firing point than the impact zone".

Nice quote.... :D

[IZinterrogator]

Better to live near the firing point than the impact zone.Just ask the family in Gatesville, TX that one of our howitzer batteries shelled for about an hour back in 1999. They didn't seem too thrilled about it, especially since Fort Hood range control didn't believe them and therefore did not call for a check fire.

[Jeff White]

Langenator,
The light divisions have always had 105s in the DS role. 18th Airborne Corps has a Battalion of M198s (155mm Towed) in the GS role. When I retired, they had a battery at Bragg (GS to 82d), a battery at Campbell (GS to 101st) and a battery at Drum (GS to 10th Mountain). There were also several Corps level 198 battalions in the ARNG. Most of the ARNG battalions have been converted on paper to provisional MP units and their artillerymen are fighting on the ground in Iraq or guarding bases in CONUS and overseas.

Preacherman,
Crusader was to be our long range artillery. However the powers that be decided to cancel Crusader and cede the long range battle to the enemy. The last MOTE I saw showed many of the M198 unites being switched over to the truck mounted MLRS for long range fires.

IMHO one of the reasons the Apache helo battalions did so poorly in the mid intensity phase of OIF1 was because the powers that be refused to deploy sufficient GS and GS reinforcing artillery into theater (had to prove transfromation worked, what were a few American lives when it meant we could ultimately cut military jobs and transfer that money directly to United Defense Techonolgies, Boeing etc?...) and the Apaches were forced to fly into an ADA environment they were never designed to operate in. One of the main missions of those GS battalions was to shape the battlefield with long range fires, especially SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense) missions.

Jeff

[Langenator]

Jeff-

I could swear the briefing the Redleg guys gave us at Benning back in 1996 had a GS battalion of 155s in each light division. That made DIVARTY 4 battalions-1 GS, 3 DS. Light divisions had towed 155s in GS with towed 105s in DS. Heavy divisions had MLRS as GS with Paladins for DS.

Looking around at various Army division sites, it looks to me like the heavies have kept their GS MLRS battalions, but the light guys haven't. Either that, or they became the arty battalions for the new BCTs.

[mons meg]

and jealous of Mons meg - I was HQ FDC in 5/14, stuck in the States, while he was bustin' caps in GW1.


Bustin' caps is right....to address the original question: IIRC our battery fired around 900 rounds total during the 3 day "push". WIth our 8 gun configuration, that's better than 100 rounds per gun in less than 72 hours, and almost all of those were 8 "red bag". Kinda makes you wonder about those "recommended limits". I mean, it's not like we had different "shifts" on the gun line....we were over TO on manpower, so they added more guns... :D

[mons meg]

Just ask the family in Gatesville, TX that one of our howitzer batteries shelled for about an hour back in 1999. They didn't seem too thrilled about it, especially since Fort Hood range control didn't believe them and therefore did not call for a check fire.

Is this an Army thing? :neener: In our unit (USMCR) the CO made it very clear that *anyone* can call a check fire, and if *anyone* did, *everyone* was to, well, CHECK FIRE. If you called the check fire in error, you were safe from any repercussions since we're not talking about MILES gear, you kinda have to train with the real thing in artillery.

[Jeff White]

The incident at Ft Hood involved an M109A6 unit that laid digitally 3200 mils out. They were firing HE under ILLUM. Somehow they fired 12 rounds (don't remember how many were HE) that impacted near a ranch house off post. When the property owners called Ft Hood and were put through to range control, they were told that they would "look into it".

I never was in a Paladin unit and I guess they didn't have triple safety checks. It seems the Chief of Firing Battery or even the section chief could have disnounted and checked the azimuth of fire with an M2 compass and caught the error before they ever fired one round....Of course we all know that digital is better :scrutiny:

Jeff

[mons meg]

The incident at Ft Hood involved an M109A6 unit that laid digitally 3200 mils out

Ah, I see. Im MY day... (hack, spit) we didn't have your fancy "digital" whatamadoo... we used an aiming circle. You know, survey equipment and a compass? :)

ok, ok....I did run the BCS (battery computer system) but everyone who came out of my FDC school spent more time on manual gunnery (protractor/slide rule) and survey than we did on the computerized fire control.


Did I ever mention that Ft. Sill had civilian accessible roads that cut between firing points and impact areas? :what:

[pdt203]

We spent a lot of time on charts and darts, but I came out with BCS training.


Johnny Smith
"Advance Party UP!"

[Antjo]

As long as I can have one, I don't care. :evil:

http://antjo.freeservers.com/images/atomcannon2.jpg

[mons meg]

Johnny, you have a reply-PM!

[Langenator]

Did I ever mention that Ft. Sill had civilian accessible roads that cut between firing points and impact areas?

Ft Lewis had some of those as well. Not sure if that's still the case though...a lot of those roads were closed after 9/11.

[Dannyboy]

Did I ever mention that Ft. Sill had civilian accessible roads that cut between firing points and impact areas?
We were shooting RRPR rounds from Quanah Range into the West Range impact zone and we had a school bus drive down the highway splitting the two. Since it was a civilian road, we couldn't actually stop traffic. We could only advise motorists that we were shooting over the road. Some parents found out about the bus and FLIPPED!

[mons meg]

The reason I mentioned the civvie roads was that USMC regs at the time prohibited overhead fire of personnel even during a CAX (combined arms exercise). This was at 29 Palms, no less. We had to shoot on a parallel offset grid. So the whole school bus incident you mentioned just makes me shudder, knowing what can happen when someone gets lazy and doesn't cut the powder right.

[Bulldozer]

Preacherman -- those G5 and G6 guns were incredible to see!

The Renostir (G6 SP-155) has got to be one of the most intimidating mobile fire platforms out there.

[7677]

M109A6 Paladin,
Grafenwohr, Germany...those words bring back a lot of memories and nightmares about mud.

Jeff ,
My friend that is the Drill Sgt at Sill personally knew the guys who shot out and told me my about over a couple of cold ones while I was visiting him at Hood. He said section chief had no business being a section chief and the gun was pointed almost opposite direction (almost to the rear of the gun) as the rest of the gun line and they still fired. From what he told me the cause of the incident was because the section chief did not update the fire control computer after they left the previous firing point. My knowledge of the Paladin is limited as they were coming on line as I was getting out.

Antjo,
That howitzer is a one shot deal!

[Smoke Rizen]

I can't believe there's no one else here from the 108th Gp. I served with the 8th & 4th. F.A. on several fire bases along the DMZ and Laosan border. All batterys were made up of 175 and 8" M-107 Tracked Howitzers. The 175 was an awsome gun! We had a Battery firing direct fire, over our heads by about a hundred yards, and impacting 2 kl m out. Best show I ever saw,and heard. I think that was the 1st.&39th. guys, never got a chance to thank them. If you listening.....Thanks. A good sight to see some history on these guns is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/8-4-arty/

[JackDRipper]

We had the 175 in the Utah National Guard in the 70's. We shot them at the Dugway proving Ground west of Salt Lake City way out in the desert. An Ohio Guard unit also had the 175 and they would transport all their equipment out here on rail cars to shoot for summer camp. I always wondered why they just didn't use our 175's that were already here?
The 175 had a higher muzzle velocity and shot farther than the similar 8" gun. The 8" was slow and accurate, the 175 fast and inaccurate.
I was in FDC and had to calcuate the rotation of the Earth in the time of flight to hit the target. The long barrel on the 175 looked cool. Ah the good old days...
JR

[db_tanker]

7677 and Paladin...

Nightmares?

Remember Hohenfels?


We had the pleasure of going in January...this Texas boy didn't know what to make of snow up to his arse. I show people pics around here and they still don't believe me. That same trip, one newbie driver got snow-blind and drove off a cliff...don't know why he wasn't using his VVS.

I actually found the clip in some old stuff that I used to hold the button down for the shower. :D

We would trade out MRE's with some locals for...um...other foodstuffs and refreshments... :evil:

Darrell

[Kharn]

If you want to talk about fun times at work, the Army shoots from Aberdeen Proving Grounds to an impact area on Edgewood Arsenal nearly every day. Mini-earthquakes just warrant a "hm, must've been a biggie" and then we go right back to work. :eek:

Kharn

[Bulldozer]

Used to live in Abingdon, MD... right smack dab between Edgewood and Aberdeen. You get used to the thumps and whumps.

[Dannyboy]

when someone gets lazy and doesn't cut the powder right.
Being MLRS, the only thing we can do is just make sure the launcher is laid correctly. If there's a problem with the fuel we wouldn't know until it was too late.
Remember Hohenfels?
OK, someone needs his mouth washed out with soap. That name brings a shudder. I always liked Graf even with that mud that hardened into concrete but that other place was more akin to Hell than anywhere I've ever been. The most miserable experience of my life.

[M109A6 Paladin]

Sorry about the cold sweats 7677 and db_tanker. Anyone want to vote on Wildflecken?

I've been to all of them. As a soldier and a civilian.

I am going to Germany for 2 weeks in July to modify some 120mm Mortars...Vilseck included.

It may be followed by another 2 weeks fielding some small arms...not certain on this one yet.

[cookiemonster]

Schweinfurt...Area Mud...GAHK!!


Fulda though...Our battalion took over Fulda around Camp Lee....Manteuffel Kaserne...had to when 2nd troop needed to go shoot Graf.

I envy you bro...I haven't had the time or money to go visiting my old haunts yet...I am afraid to take the wife...she might ask what happened there?

Darrell

[M109A6 Paladin]

We just moved back from Germany last Feb ('04). We were stationed at Bamberg for 5 years.

I'll be going back to visit some old friends in July between work days.

[noonanda]

Glad to see Im not the only Marine Artilleryman here. Mons did you ever get to play with the BCT?? LOL I hated that mofo. I joined in 93, was a 0844 in the "3 shop" then went to survey and finally to a firing battery. Im out here at Ft Sill as an FDC instructor now, so I guess I have come full circle. We still teach the students manual, then they learn 2 1/2 weeks of automated using the AFATDS.

Like someone said, the restrictions about shooting are only when shooting
M-203 series, Super 8 redbag.

Dont know how I missed this thread when it got started.

[mons meg]

noonanda, we'll have to PM each other about the new computer systems. We used the British built BCS during training and over in the "catbox" during Desert Storm.

FYI I earned the "Master Blaster" award during gun school...top of my class of 12. Yeah, 12.... ;) I also programmed the little BUCS (Hp palmtop looking thing) to play the Marine Corps Hymn, which made the Gunny proud. :D

[PershingRiflesC-7]

Ok, I gotta step in and break up this Marine mutual admiration society. :evil:

Now that the dirty work is done :D , I must admit learning a bunch from a USMC gunnery sergeant when I was in OBC at Ft. Sill, Class 2-78. He was an instructor in the gunnery department and they rotated among the classes when we went to the range to observe and adjust fire. Good times with the big guns, indeed. Stepped up in caliber a little when I went into the LANCE missile system after OBC and was sent to Germany. Better yet, we went to the island of Crete, Greece for live fire, not one of Fritz's old training grounds like Graf, Wildflecken, Hohenfels :cool: .

Noonanda, my OBC class was interesting in that half of it was made up of Marine 2LTs just out of TBS, 1/4 was Army National Guard/Reserve, and 1/4 active duty Army. Made for an interesting mix....

[IZinterrogator]

Somehow they fired 12 rounds (don't remember how many were HE) that impacted near a ranch house off post.IIRC it was 11 HE preceded by one illum.

"What's with that flare?"
*BOOM*
"Ohhh, ****!"

Unfortunately, that ranch house belonged to one of the families that the government leases Fort Hood's land from. :what:

[Trebor]

I heard some redlegs shelled a house just outside of Camp Grayling in Michigan a few years back as well. I don't think their were any injuries in that one. Anyone know the details?

[Jeff White]

Trebor,
Are you referring to the incident where 2-123 FA IL ARNG fired a 105mm off post at Grayling in either June or July of 1994?

The FO fell asleep and rounds were fired unobserved. Most of the leadership on the gun line was in the cantonement area for showers. IIRC it was a charge error.

Most instances where rounds are shot out are attributible to errors in cutting charges.

Jeff

[Sean Smith]

That's nothing, I know of a guy who fired a TANK ROUND out of the impact area in Grafenwoehr. Load sabot, index heat, almost put a round in the PX parking lot. :eek:

[p35]

That would be an interesting one for the insurance company: "Someone put a sabot round from an M-1 through my car while it was parked at the PX..." :uhoh:

[Langenator]

Dang Sean...now you've got me trying to remember the Graf map and figure out which range that tank was on.

[db_tanker]

we were doing a MRA just outside of Bad Kissingen and one of my buddies put the barrel of his tank into someones house....

old Herman German wasn't too pleased with that.....

I seem to remember that the USA took good care of him after that. :rolleyes:


Darrell

[Sean Smith]

Dang Sean...now you've got me trying to remember the Graf map and figure out which range that tank was on.

By the way, it was the tank commander (who was the platoon leader) that fired the round. And he wasn't even a butter bar anymore. I was in the same tank battalion when he did it. He branch detailed... wait for it... Military Intelligence. That's no urban legend; I know because I saw him at the MI school a couple of years later.

:what:

[p35]

So, db, are you saying you wouldn't be PO'd if someone did that to your house? Why shouldn't the US pay for repairs?

[db_tanker]

When I was stationed over there...it seemed that the Germans were always trying to get over on us. So I always looked upon things of that nature with some distrust. Did we need to right the wrong? yep.

Did he push for more than what was deserving? Damn skippy he did...not too many people wouldn't...especially when it came to a "foreign power".....

From what I understand, the whole house got rebuilt...mebbe that was done just to insure that he wouldn't be anti-american...not sure....I DO seem to remember, though, German units getting over alot more than we did. :(


You see the same over here...its the same everywhere. Didn't mean anything by what I said...and if what I said offended anyone, then I appologize whole-heartedly.

So, P35...where were you stationed at?

Darrell

[IZinterrogator]

He branch detailed... wait for it... Military Intelligence. Hey, what are you trying to say?? Just for that, I'm never sticking up for you DATs in front of the crunchies ever again.

[Sean Smith]

Hey, what are you trying to say?? Just for that, I'm never sticking up for you DATs in front of the crunchies ever again.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't a DAT, I was Battalion S2 at the time. 35E all the way. :evil:

[onrhander]

Back in the early 60"s someone at the navy training grounds 1/2 mile orso west of my parents house screwed up and pointed a howeriser at a 87-88 degree EAST incline trying to drop a round 1500yds. to their WEST. :what: The (dummy)round hit about 1300-1400 yds.East,luckly in a corn fieald on the west side of the highway. :rolleyes: Had they ben trying to drop it 200-300 yds.farther and ben at a85-86 degree inclination(east) they would have droped it into someones house lot at best,at worst hit a house! The SHTF at the Navy base. :cuss: :cuss:

[p35]

Darrell-

When you put it that way, I see your point. I thought you were saying that he had no right to get mad about it in the first place. Maybe I read too much into it. If I sounded rude, I apologize.

FWIW, I spent a lot of time in Germany as a civilian, so my perspective may be a little different.

[Gifted]

You guys heard a while back about that avelanche control round into a back yard? It was 105 not 155, but still shocking having shrapnel fly inches above the head of your kid watching TV :what:

Incidently, who here knows why shrapnel is technically(if not for common usage making it so :p ) the wrong word there?

[NMshooter]

Shrapnel (named after Dr. Shrapnel of course) consists of little metal balls inside the casing of an exploding shell.

The term fragment applies to the common small bits of metal whizzing about at high velocity you are thinking about.

:neener:

Off topic, how is Missouri?

[Delmar]

Dr. Shrapnel?? Check the link-interesting read.
http://riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/shrap/

[p35]

I heard the avalanche control guys are having a problem because the Army took their 105s back to use in Iraq. Don't know what they use for avalanche control now, although with global warming it's less of an issue these days.

[IZinterrogator]

35E all the way. Ahh, you must be Castle Bravo on TFL. Okay, as long as we are making fun of ourselves, it's cool, but death to the others who may slam us!

U.S. Army Military Intelligence: When push comes to shove, we bet your life on it. :neener:

[NMshooter]

Admittedly I was wrong about the Dr. part.

I thought 106 recoiless rifles were used for avalanche control?

[Delmar]

No big thing about a title-its kind of funny in a way. Doctors who become surgeon generals still like to be called Dr for the most part.

I think some places might use recoilless rifles in avalanche control. The 106 sure has the range-about 8k yards worth, and unlike RPG's, they use a pre-rifled band on the warhead, so the round does not depend on fins for stabilization.
I did a little research, and the 106 is still listed in inventory as substitute standard.

Had a Marine Corps friend who was trained on the Ontos. 6-106mm's could really screw you up, but having seen a single 106 fired off a jeep, you better keep the motor running, because any concealment behind you is going to gone in the backblast!

[Hank Zudd]

from being a cannon cocker for one year {in the nasty guard} (between stints as a huey crewchief)
1) the safety officer at each firing point is supposed to check the numbers cranked into the gun by the crew, prior to pulling the rope
2) the army uses RAP (rocket assisted rounds) to gain distance to their 155's
3) yes, people have fired outside the range limits lots of times. happened at camp roberts one year; impacted near a roadside park on hwy 101
4) last time I drove thru the training area at ft. hood, they had billboard sized signs warning of overhead fire from points outside the impact area (got whizzed then)
5) the noise inside a self propelled howitzer (when firing) is nothing compared to outside
6) if the forward observer does not see the round impact, he is supposed to call a cease fire. this happened to our battery once.
on our gun, we fired 3 round in 45 seconds one time (on a priority fire mission-hand rammed)
being a redleg for a year was a blast. but I missed my hot showers while in the field. :)

[M109A6 Paladin]

Actually, the avalanche control people use the m102, we would not allow them to use the m119 because we don't have enough for the active army.

We are building more m119s soon.

[Preacherman]

Thanks for that info, Paladin - makes sense that avalance control would use the (shorter-range) M102. For comparison, here are pictures: first the M102, then the M119.


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m102.jpg


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m119-4.jpg

[db_tanker]

I am not sure about this...but I was under the impression that sound waves caused avalanches?

Or am I under the "what you see on TV is the truth" sickness?


If that is the case, and you need an actual detonation...then why not use some sub-caliber munitions? We used them when we were doing OPFOR training in Hoenfels...but they were just blanks....we then started using some kind of wierd simulator that we mounted on top of the gun block.

Any gun-bunnies out there with the info? :D

Darrell

[shinobi59]

There are two type of 155mm powder charges.

Green Bag, and White Bag.

I believe red is a color on the powder bag.

And 155mm batteries fire much more than 12 rounds per day even in training.

[p35]

OK, I started this thread four years ago- does that qualify it for some sort of award?

[Alphazulu6]

These days in Iraq it seems it takes authorization from the President of the United States to fire anything over a 120mm mortar...even then your pressing it with the current ROE it seems :( But yeah they do have shifts... the ones that rattle the cages of most men are the illum rounds as they have the largest boom when leaving the tubes.... as far as actual round count for the shift I have never seen. They physically record the tube count for calibration, maintenence, and critical events summary reasons only.

[shinobi59]

LOL

Sorry ... did not read the dates on this ... just responded :oD

[Fosbery]

"There are three types of charges, green bag, white bag and red bag. Green bag has five charges, white bag has seven and red bag has eight."

Our boys had exactly the same thing with their FH-70 155mm howitzers. Terrible things they were, made me, and everyone else except the crew, swear everytime they went off.

[shinobi59]

I spent about 8 years as a Red Leg.

155mm SPs. 8 inch Sps

Never saw or heard of a red bag.

when I was first in all exercises ended in firing a Nuke with charge 7W?

On an 8 inch SP (M110) charge 7W was absolutely deafening. Can't even imagine a charge 9 Red bag.

Perhaps red is strictly in towed Howitzer units? Or perhaps it was introduced after I left the military?

Anyone actually use a red bag?

[shinobi59]

Fosbery.

Ok so apparently you did use this charge.

Like I said I can't imagine anything above a 7W.

I can understand why you would swear after firing anything like that.

[FDC]

MACS is also available for US 155mm. Not to go too far off topic, the President does not need to be woken up for 120s.