[HABU]

I have come to the conclusion that I shoot too much to not cast my own bullets. Last year I shot 10K of .45 ACP and may double that this year.

I have cast my own 2# jigs for halibut, so turning wheel weights into 2# ingots is no problem.

I need to be pointed in the right direction for the actual bullet casting process. Do I need to slug my barrel? Is casting one bullet at a time practical, or do I need a multi bullet mold? What about adding tin and wax? Is it important to maintain certain tempratures? Etc. etc. etc......

Is there a certain publication that is recognized as the bullet casters bible, or is it a black art?

All input aimed at getting someone started in casting his own bullets is appreciated!

[HSMITH]

I am just getting started too. So far I have cast about 1500 bullets, and am a LONG way from being an expert. I bought a mold at a gunshow for more than I should have paid and went nuts basically. I did not have any wheel weights or any lead laying around so I pirated some decoy anchors, a stainless bowl from the wife when she was not looking along with a large spoon and headed for the stove. I cranked the burner way up, melted some lead, and began casting bullets and dropping them into the sink full of water. The wife discovered this happening and was NOT impressed:uhoh: Anyway, I cast about 40 bullets of pure lead just to see if I could, and they were really nicely made. I have since progressed to the side burner on the BBQ grill, but still with my stainless bowl and spoon. I cast about 750 this afternoon from 2 different lead sources and hope to test them out soon. Using a 2 cavity mold 750 took almost 2 hours to cast, I am developing a system that has little wasted motion.

I add 2% tin, everything I can find says 2% tin makes casting easy, bullets nicely filled out and anything over 2% tin is a waste, so 2% it is. I am using candles to flux the mix, and scraping the nasties off the top of the melt before adding the tin, in hopes of losing less tin. I have no idea what the temp of my melt is, but if cold it will get "slushy", and when too hot it will start to turn blue or goldish blue on the top. Keep it molten and shiny and all is good for me. I have been playing with it for a while and have found what temp ranges work best. No way would I piddle around with a single cavity mold, not unless I was doing huge rifle bullets, shotgun slugs or something like that. I am buying a 4 cavity next, casting is kinda fun but production is the goal.

For sizing there are basically 3 options: 1) shoot them as is with a little lube applied manually, 2) size them in a Lee sizer and then ad lube manually, or 3) size them in a Lubricator/Sizer combination too. There are plenty of opinions on this, I am experimenting with Alox lube right now and am thinking a lubrisizer press is in my near future. I have not figured out how much alox is needed to keep the leading away.

Slugging the barrel is not a bad idea, but I have never done it and have shot many tens of thousands of lead bullets with no problems.

I can tell you that it is NOT HARD at all!! You do not need a whole bunch of equipment to start, or spend much money at all. I have the cost of the mold, and a couple items I scraped up around the house and my bullets are as uniform as anything I have bought. I have done a ton of searching on the net and found plenty of reading on the subject, and am armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous now. I am looking for some casting books myself so I can't recommend any.

Getting mighty long for someone that doesn't know much, but I took a shot at it. Hope it helps.

[Edward429451]

You want the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 1st.

Plumbers 50/50 roll solder is an easy source of tin. I use a 1 lb roll per 20lbs lead for 45's and 1 roll per 10lbs if they're going to be higher velocity like 44 mags.

Careful with that outdoor BBQ grill. One raindrop or moth in a pot of molten lead will empty the pot in all directions instantly. Watch that sky.

Slugging your bore is easy. Find some pure lead swaged slugs load no more than 2.0 grains of powder in one and shoot it into a 5 gal bucket of water in the yard then mike the slug and get your sizing die 1/1000th bigger (451 measured, 452 sizing die etc..)
(Credit & thanks to Mike Irwin for that one!)

Alox is good stuff.

Lyman 450 sizer/lubers are great. Got one a little over 30 yrs old and another 18 yrs old and both still work like new.

Wrinkled bullets mean your mould and/or lead is too cool. Frosted bullets mean its too hot.

Wax candles are good for fluxing the metal. Drop in a chunk and ignite with a match to reduce smoke while stirring air into the mixture.

Skim the scum off the top after fluxing so you dont remove the tin. It'll get scummy looking while casting, thats the tin seperating from the lead and is not dirt. Flux it when it looks like this to get your mirror finish back again. Flux often whenever it looks like it needs it.

Wear gloves and long sleeves, molten fuming lead will absorb right through your skin and is much more dangerous than cold hard lead.

[P95Carry]

Not much to add ........ but, I do cast mine bordering on ''frosting'' ... and drop hot bullets onto sponge floating on bucket of water ...... this stops bullets ''bruising'' whilst soft and then they get a good water quench ... in theory bullet alloy does not harden significantly thru quenching but I do it and am sure I get a slightly harder result.

Most molds I use are doubles .. adequate most of time, but I do use a six cavity Lee for run-of-mill plinking bullets for 38 spl loads (158 grainers).

Practice, like with most things ......... counts a lot. Stay safe ... molten lead/alloy is NASTY!!

[uglymofo]

Casting is a real chore, but there's no way cheaper to shoot 45acp. Find yourself a 4-gang mold and pay the freight. Dunno if SAECO and RCBS make them anymore; I'm sure the Hensley and Gibbs #68 is a top-dollar "collector's" piece now. Think I paid about $80 for my SAECO 4-gang about 20 years ago, so they ain't cheap, but they beat the HELL out of 1 or 2-gang molds--those get so hot so quickly, you'll have to stop and let them cool fairly often. The 4-gang was the Cadillac; I could cast for about 2-3 hours (as I recall) before having to let it cool, and it'd cool quickly enough (15 minutes was plenty, just enough time for a welcome break). There's nothing wrong with frosted bullets; they look odd, initially, but they shoot just fine.

Be careful that your quenching bucket is anywhere near the molten lead. One splash and it's a big disaster. Molten lead "freezes" on skin contact. RCBS Pro-Melt always kept the temp constant, and made this task "palatable", but I knew folks that just used a cast iron pot, a spoon, and a hotplate. (Not an efficient way to burn time, in my opinion.)

[rick_reno]

I read the posts quickly - I didn't see "Don't do this in your kitchen" mentioned. Make sure you have adequate ventilation - outdoors is best.
Get that Lyman book, it's a very good source of info.
Never put ANYTHING in your pot that isn't dry. Moisture expands very rapidly in molten metal and can blow molten metal out of the pot and onto you.
I used to let moulds/etc. warm up on the side of the pot while it was melting the wheelweights. My process was two stages. I'd usually get 3-5 five gallon buckets of wheelweights from my tire dealer (they were free then - not sure what people do today), I'd melt/flux those into ingots in step 1. I used a flux available from Brownells, can't remember what it was called. Step 2 would cast the ingots into bullets. I've still got about 300 lbs of those ingots in my shop.
I stopped casting years ago. I found I liked shooting more than casting. I used to use 2 H&G 4 cavity moulds. I found with one I was waiting for them to cool, and it was holding up my production. I never slugged my barrels. I did try some solder once, but since I was just punching paper I didn't see any reason to use it. If you start casting hunting bullets you might want to use it - for putting holes in paper striaght wheelweights worked just fine for me. I never experienced any leading problems in my barrels. I used an RCBS sizer.

[Steve Smith]

Just a few things to add...all the above is great stuff. I run my pot hot enough that the bullets frost a little. I don't know of anyone that can say its a bad thing beyond looks. One thing for sure, when its hot like that it fills molds perfectly. Just takes a bit longer to dump the bullets. Run it too hot and you'll open the mold on molten lead or get your mold really friggin hot...not a good thing.

I visit Red Robbin on occasion. They have crayons there for kiddies. I always grab a few when I'm there. Break a crayon in half and toss it in. Don't even worry about the paper. Most times it'll light up and burn off some fumes in the reduction process...an added bonus!

A few safety notes, when reducing from WW to ingots, there will be a to of VERY bad stuff in the air. Stay away from it and toss in a match (no need to light it) and stand back. You can get rid of a lot of bad stuff that way. Keep a fire extinguisher near. Not so near that you couldn't get to it if you run away from a fire, but not too far away either.

Oh, and one more thing. John Linebaugh told me that wax toilet rings make excellent flux AND bullet lube!

[Edward429451]

I used a flux available from Brownells, can't remember what it was called

Marvelux. Supposed to not smoke but I cast outside anyway so never bothered to get any and continue to use wax.

[uglymofo]

It's been a LONG time since I cast. I can't remember; what's the purpose of adding the wax?

I used (still have 1/2 can) of Marvelux. Whatever its' purpose, I do remember that it worked great, but I don't remember the features it provided that led me to believe that it was the best alternative (for whatever 'problem' it solved). Hope that made sense.

I used to cast in the winter months, when it rained; I cast inside my house. I had my melting pot about a foot from the open window. I set up two of those 20" fans in the square frames (that you can get from any hardware store for about $20 each). I set one up at the window, blowing the indoor air to the outside; it had enough draft, I could see it drawing the smoke from the pot. The other fan I put at another window, and it pulled air into the house from outside.

[Steve Smith]

NEVER reduce from WW in your house!

[uglymofo]

Why? and does that apply to lead ingots, too?

[Edward429451]

Wax fluxes the metal so the tin mixes properly for the cast and eventually it begins to seperate again so you reflux it, is my understanding.

The big selling point of Marvelux is no smoke.

NEVER reduce WW's or do any form of lead casting in the house cause molten fuming vapors are 100 times more dangerous than cold lead. Gets in the draperies, drywall, skin, you name it. Very bad stuff.

[Mike Irwin]

One other point.

If you're not using a lead melting pot, NEVER EVER use an aluminum pan!

Use ONLY cast iron or stainless steel.

Lead can amalgamate with aluminum over time and substantially weaken the bottom of an aluminum pan, to the point where the bottom can drop out or the pan simply collapse.

[Steve Smith]

The main reason I said what I did is because of the horrendous crap that comes off of WW. WWs get into grease, oil, road trash, half-decomposed used condoms, you name it on the road, not to mention whatever the tire guys throw in the WW buckets. Do you really want to breath that stuff? I really don't pick through the bucket much when I do my reduction...too many razor blades (thanks tire guys) and other sharps in there to worry with it. I just dump a lot in, toss in a match once its hot enough to push the light stuff up to the top, watch the huge toxic mushroom cloud fireball, and then wait. Then I can pull out clips and such easily.

One thing you NEED to pull out early is valve stems. They smoke like mad! :D

[uglymofo]

Thanks guys. I guess I got lucky, and out of sheer ignorance survived without poisoning myself by the luck of my setup. At the time, I was a career auto-painter, and used to take blood tests for lead contamination every 6 months or so. (It was a pain, because I had to pay for it myself; there was no med insurance for it at the time. Expensive as hell, too, but that was the trade I was in...)

Anyway, I never scored outside the norms; not even in the high end of the normal range. I'll attribute that to always wearing the dual-charcoal respirator (TC-19C or whatever it was classified as) and lucking out at home.

Just read what Edward and Steve said about toxic fumes. I never smelled them because of the setup I had. I could literally see the smoke get sucked out the fan. That draft was so strong, I couldn't keep a match lit within 9" of the pot. I remember I had to light 3 matches at a time. Hadn't thought about that in years. Dumb luck.

[Frohickey]

Wear gloves and long sleeves, molten fuming lead will absorb right through your skin and is much more dangerous than cold hard lead.

Cold hard lead going at speed towards you IS more dangerous than molten fuming lead. :D

Watch where you cast. And make sure you have ample ventilation. Doing it indoors, in the kitchen is not something I would do. Lead poisoning can happen.

[uglymofo]

Now that I'm into this thread, I'll mention this. I used to wear long-sleeves and leather gloves with the long arm covers when I cast.

One of the biggest precautions in the auto-painting trade was to wear goggles. The ones without ventilation holes were especially recommended. Of course, the mask covered the nose and mouth, but the fastest entry into the blood system, as is commonly known now, is through the eyes. It's probably not a bad idea for casting, either.

Addendum: DUH! they were called 'welder's gloves'.

[Edward429451]

Cold hard lead going at speed towards you IS more dangerous than molten fuming lead.

Molten lead will poison / kill you faster than cold lead, period. Well, unless the cold lead is flyin like you say then it would kill you faster. But molten lead is more dangerous than when its cold. Well, unless its flyin then its more dangerous. You trynna confoos' me?:D ;) What about flyin molten lead?





the fastest entry into the blood system, as is commonly known now, is through the eyes. It's probably not a bad idea for casting, either.

That makes sense.
(I thought they tested your hair for heavy metals?)

[Mike Irwin]

"I thought they tested your hair for heavy metals?"

Yep.

Heavy metals, and drug residues, are excreted through the hair.

[Fatelvis]

Slugging your bore is easy. Find some pure lead swaged slugs, load no more than 2.0 grains of powder in one, and shoot it into a 5 gal bucket of water. Edward, have you tried this method with rifles, too? Ive always heard to slug the 303s bore, (because they vary greatly), but who`s got lead balls laying around, and an appropriately sized dowel to "beat it" down the bore, the old fasioned way? This sounds very interesting, and Im thinking of trying it, but doesnt the bullet still deform, on impact with the water? Thanx-

[Edward429451]

Edward, have you tried this method with rifles, too? Ive always heard to slug the 303s bore, (because they vary greatly), but who`s got lead balls laying around, and an appropriately sized dowel to "beat it" down the bore, the old fasioned way? This sounds very interesting, and Im thinking of trying it, but doesnt the bullet still deform, on impact with the water? Thanx-

Hmmm. I've never done it with a rifle. You may just get a blown primer if you try that with a rifle. I'd be hesitant on that one.

Yeah the slug did deform some but it was a full shank bullet that left plenty undeformed to get a measurment.

Home Depot for the dowels. Lead fishing sinkers might work or the gunshop sells round balls in many calibers. I think Dillon sells a slug your bore kit too. Maybe Mike knows about doing it with rifles and could shed some light there. Maybe a primer only and finish by beating it down the rest of the way?

[Archie]

has threaded brass rods in varying sizes.
Do your own math for bore diameters, but they don't mar steel and they don't shatter.
I keep a couple around as general purpose drifts, as well as squib removers.

I used to use a Lee Product pot. They poor from the bottom and are very useful.

Another trick is to use an aluminum small bisquet pan for ingots. The lead won't stick to aluminum. (This is not what Mike was warning about earlier.)

I dropped bullets directly into a bucket of water; not for the "heat-treatment" effect, but just as a handy place to put them. Recently "cooled" bullets are still hotter than heck. The water cools them to where they can be handled and it won't deform them.

Maybe I should start casting again.

[bdhawk]

ya know, this is a great thread! i have been casting for 'bout 30 years and i still learned something. i especially liked the crayon trick. i will stop using aluminum pans. that is spooky, the bottom falling out of a pan of molten lead. now for my 2 cents:
i have heard of the quenching method to cool andharden bullets. it does harden bullets, but the treatment does not last over time. they slooowly return to their normal hardness. i don't think it is safe. i do not want any liquids anywhere my casting area.

i use a small cheapie fan, about a 7 incher. it blows the fumes away and it cools the sprue quicker, speeding up the process. it does not cool off the furnace to hurt.

do not eat, drink, or smoke cigarettes or cigars while casting. you may touch your mouth in the process. i keep my tea clear across the shop so i have to walk away from the furnace to drink. i use a insulated mug with a handle to reduce any chances of touching the mouth area.

i always wear safety glasses. you should too, or you may end up with a white cane and a very helpful dog.

casting is not fun, but it makes it afforadable for me to shoot as much as i do. be careful.

[Frohickey]

What I've seen is a large stable bucket of water to the other side of the casting pot. Over it, is a cotton sweater, with a small slit cut in the center. You wet the sweater, and drop the hot bullets on it, it then falls through the hole, and any splashes will be caught by the sweater.

[P95Carry]

Hmmm ..... cotton over the water ... like that. My floating sponge pieces works pretty well but that sounds better.

Re the slugging matters which cropped up ... I put a short post up ......

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17527

with hopefully a useful suggestion, plus a way to show that it is possible to mic up the groove dia from a five groove barrel.

[BudthePrez]

If you get a chance ceck out LEE molds for your .45 casting 6 cavity alum. on the cheap and if you go for the "Micro grove" style sizing almost becomes a non issue with liquid Alox.
These have always shot well for me when I did my part and the 6 cavity mold really does crank out product.
Muffin tin ingots are good I started using the mini tins because the smaller ingots worked better in my Lee pot.
Have fun

[P95Carry]

One other small suggestion I forgot to mention .....

I use the Lee pot but ... invariably use a propane torch to assist with initial ingot melt-down ..... speeds things up a lot and also, if I perch mold on edge of pot, get some quicker pre-heat and so get into casting good ones faster.

[JPM70535]

I dont have much to add other than to suggest the best way I have found to reduce WW or other scrap lead into ingots is to use a propane burner such as is found with deep fry turkey kits. They are low to the ground and when used in conjunction with a cast iron pot, makes for a stable platform when the pot is full of lead (75-80 lbs. is a lot of weight for a BBQ pit.

Thanks for the bit about dropping freshly cast bullets onto a cloth covered bucket of water. All these years I just dropped them onto a towel. Learn something every day.

One tip on casting, use 2 or 3 molds, even if they are of different calibers. It reduces the dead time waiting for the lead to set up, and you all you will have to do is sort them out after they cool.

BTW, I may have missed it in the replies, but I find that wheel weights by themselves are hard enough to not need tin added.

JMHI

[Fatelvis]

I am always tempted to drop my freshly cast bullets into water, but Ive heard that "quenching" them in this manner hardens them. Now is this type of hardening similar to "heat treating" them in an oven? The reason I ask, is that I know the hardness from heat treating varies over time. (I believe it gets harder over a period of days/months, and then gets softer again?) I dont understand how, but I dont like the "varying hardness" of heat treatment, I would rather obtain my desired hardness through alloys in the lead. I know its hardness is relatively stable. To me, consistancy= accuracy. Can anyone tell me if these two practices are related? Thanx-

[Edward429451]

I'm gonna try quenching them as described and see if theres a difference thats noticable.

I've shot thousands of straight WW's in 44 spec and 45. the only time I really worry bout the hardness is when they gonna be for 44 mag so add 2 rolls of 50/50 solder per pot (20 lb pot). I dont have any leading issues to speak of when done that way.

[Steve Smith]

Edward, how fast are you pushing your .44's? I'm pushing .45's at 1350 with WW and a gas check. No need to spend more on solder. BTW, why didn't you grab my lead that I gave away a few months ago. Wish I could have gotten it to you.

[Edward429451]

My quickest ones are at 1400 fps, the 300's with 18.0 gr 2400. But I plan to trin those down B/C 1400 is more than anything on this continent needs.

Wish I could've got the lead but having totally weird scedules lately with the new biz and wife outta town etc. There'll be more. Thanks anyway. I still need to get with you on that ream the charge bar thing so the measure will feed the 4064 better.

The wifes supposed to be back today. I've been doing quite a bit of reloading so lemmee know bout match scheduling so maybe I can finally make it to one!.

Thx.

[Steve Smith]

There are two this weekend. Pueblo West at about 8ish and the same for Frontier on Sunday.

We're having a BBQ on Sunday at Frontier for lunch!


You really don't need my guidance for the reaming. I'm sure you have a 1/8" to 5/8" taper reamer. Stick it i (from the top) and turn like a fool 'till you take the lump down. Just don't go so far you take the bottom lip down where the case mouth hits. That would take a LOT of reaming.

[Edward429451]

AH, no can do this weekend. If I ran out to go shooting her first weekend back I'd be in the doghouse for sure. Plans already made. Got a biggish job starting tuesday that'll go through next weekend too. Being a 1-1/2 man shop has its drawbacks (until payday).

The only reamer I have will do 1/8 to 7/8 but its 'walled' to go over copper pipes. I can probably borrow one though.

BBQ?! Aagh! Maybe she wants to go to a match with me...! Doubt it.

[Steve Smith]

There will be another woman there shooting the match.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

I have ran my 2 bulletmaster machines at 4,800 bullets per hour. Out of the millions of bullets I cast the ONLY FLUX IS CANDLEWAX.

Makers of the other fluxes laugh all the way to the bank.

For serious competitors a lead hardness tester will give you identical weight and hardness of bullets. Lead dropped into water does read harder in my LHT. A drop of sweat caused me an explosion that gave me scars for years. Don't melt batteries as the fumes will make you ill.

I have a supply of california Saeco Meehanite cast Iron molds. and old original H&G molds I no longer need as I will be 68 Saturday. Steel and aluminum molds warp and wear out. Cast Iron will last lifetimes and cost the least in the long run.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with the old casting master FITZ you can flux with just about anything store boughten flux is a waste of money. I experiment with it a little but I havent found anythig that works any better then plain wax. Lead and tin dont seperate once mixed together so what i do is flux the pot when i start to remove the dirt and crap then flux no more and Ive never had a problem with my bullets.

[Fatelvis]

I use all Lyman moulds, (except for my Lee "Old Army" conical). Are these steel, or Iron? Flitz`s comment made me wonder. Thanx-

[Edward429451]

She don't want to go.:(

So I was wrong about the tin / lead seperating? Just impurities rising to the top? Yeah, flux some more. Lets get them impurities back down in there!!!:D Oh well.

<I have ran my 2 bulletmaster machines at 4,800 bullets per hour>

Are you talking bout that big free standing machine that takes 8 moulds at once on a big (belt driven?) wheel? I looked at those before. A 90 lb pot, IIRC.

< No need to spend more on solder.>

Last time I bought 50/50 it was a dollar fifty five per roll! At the contractors supply of course. I also get quite a bit of pure lead from ripping out old lead drainlines, it gets the treatment. Bout time to reduce that pile thats grown over the winter. Poor neighbors, I feel for em when I melt that stuff down. (pinched nose smilie)

[Steve Smith]

You know what they say, you can take a woman to a match but you can't make her shoot.


FWIW, I have a girlfriend type that wants to start shooting matches!

[Frohickey]

We need to start a singles forum in THR... only problem would be that it would be mostly men looking for women who shoot. :D

[HSMITH]

Paul, sent you a PM on those molds.......