[Molon Labe]

I understand very few THR members are militia members, but I'll ask this question anyway in the hope of getting a useful response:

I belong to a militia group. (Yes, I know you're shocked. Get over it.) We have some acreage, and monthly training exercises usually occur on or land. During field maneuvers (e.g. patrolling) participants are encouraged to carry their rifles. This adds a degree of realism to the training. For safety reasons, all weapons are in condition 3 or 4 when we do this training.

I am in the early stages of planning a 2 or 3-day FTX for our group at Wayne National Forest (http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/wayne/). The training would essentially be nothing more than a hiking and camping trip. To make the training more realistic, I would like everyone to carry rifles for the duration of the entire exercise.

Now it's my understanding that the open carry of a handgun is allowed in a National Forest. But what about a rifle? Or even worse, an Evil Assault Rifle™ like an FAL?

[hso]

Check with the ranger. Tell him you and your buds will be coming up and would like to do some target practice. Ask if there's anything wrong with bringing a FAL or AR. If you're not hunting he'll probably tell you you can bring anything you want.

[Molon Labe]

Check with the ranger. Tell him you and your buds will be coming up and would like to do some target practice. Ask if there's anything wrong with bringing a FAL or AR. If you're not hunting he'll probably tell you you can bring anything you want.FYI, we won't be hunting or shooting.

As far as asking the ranger, I have mixed feelings about this. Prudence dictates that one should not ask an LEO (or a ranger, in this case) on matters pertaining to the law, as you often receive incorrect or biased information. If it's legal to carry a FAL in a National Forest, but the ranger you're asking is antigun, he/she may be tempted to say "it's not allowed" based on personal prejudice.

[modifiedbrowning]

AFAIK, National Forests follow state law in regard to firearms.

[Car Knocker]

This is the only thing pertaining to firearms that I could find on the Wayne National Forest website:

State Law prohibits shooting and target practicing on all public lands (including the Wayne National Forest), except when legally pursuing game. United States 36 CFR 261.10(d) prohibits discharging of firearm on national forest land under the following situations:

-In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation sites or other occupied areas;

-Across or on a Forest Development road, or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result of such discharge; and

-Into or within any cave.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/wayne/wildlife/hunting.html

Don't know if this closure will affect your plans:

Wayne NF Trails to Close for Season
NELSONVILLE, OH – The off-road vehicle, equestrian and mountain bike trails on the Wayne National Forest will close at 12:00 PM on December 15th for the season, according to Forest officials.

The Wayne is Ohio’s only National Forest, and manages about 238,000 acres in 12 counties in southeast Ohio.

(snip)

The Forest’s trails are closed every year in mid-December to allow recreation technicians to inspect the system and provide any needed repairs or rerouting. The closure also helps to reduce the amount of wear and tear the trails endure from regular seasonal use, particularly during the wet winter months. The trails will open back up in the spring on April 15th, 2006.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/wayne/press_releases/trailclosure05.html

I know that the National Forests I've been in in Utah, Nevada and California I've never had a problem carrying and shooting any kind of weapon. It appears, though, that shooting is restricted in Ohio.

[Stand_Watie]

My advice would be for you to first find out the legality of carrying weapons (car knocker's post seems to indicate it is legal) and then make a courtesy call to the park rangers.

Something along the lines of "we will not be shooting, target practicing or hunting, but we will be carrying weapons as we want this training scenario to be as realistic as possible", and then refuse to be baited into an argument/discussion regarding whether it is legal or prudent. Make sure the rangers understand that other people you may encounter are not in danger from you, and that you are not an anti-government organization, but rather an auxilary government organization.

[El Rojo]

What about just doing it? Really, do you think a ranger is going to disarm all of you? Of course they could just call FBI HRT for back up and a full blown war might break out, so never mind.

[Molon Labe]

My advice would be for you to first find out the legality of carrying weapons (car knocker's post seems to indicate it is legal) and then make a courtesy call to the park rangers.

Something along the lines of "we will not be shooting, target practicing or hunting, but we will be carrying weapons as we want this training scenario to be as realistic as possible", and then refuse to be baited into an argument/discussion regarding whether it is legal or prudent. Make sure the rangers understand that other people you may encounter are not in danger from you, and that you are not an anti-government organization, but rather an auxilary government organization.This is probably not a bad idea; that way, if a hysterical soccer mom makes a call to a ranger and says, "terrorists carrying assaults weapons are hiking through the forest," the ranger can tell her to take a Midol and relax. On the other hand, if the ranger is antigun, he/she might try to give us trouble. So it's a gamble, and entirely dependent on the personal prejudices/bigotry of the ranger.

What about just doing it? Really, do you think a ranger is going to disarm all of you? Of course they could just call FBI HRT for back up and a full blown war might break out, so never mind.If it's legal, then my first choice is to just do it. But I should probably also prepare for the possibility that a ranger or hysterical hiker is unfamiliar with the law, and erroneously believes it is illegal to carry such a weapon in a National Park. So I'm thinking it would be wise for me to bring along some supporting paper work. But then again, if there's no law forbidding us to carry such weapons, what paper work would we bring?

[odysseus]

Let us know how it goes.

[Scottmkiv]

I carry and shoot my FAL all over Santa Fe national forest all the time. No problems there.

[chopinbloc]

national forests should be fine. there are some areas which are shut off to shooting but for the most part, you just need to be concerned about state laws. call a park ranger to find out which areas are closed to shooting and try to avoid those even though you won't be shooting.

[yonderway]

The actual species to use may vary from state to state. But the line is "we're coyote hunting". No license needed, no season, no need for safety orange, and no restrictions on hours of the day or how many can be in your party.

This can sometimes also work for feral hogs or prarie dogs or (etc.)

[mtnbkr]

In Virginia, you're not supposed to have loaded guns with you outside of hunting season unless it's a concealed CCW piece (In Va, that means a handgun). Open Carry outside of hunting season is forbidden. It was one of my motivators to get my CCW.

Condition 4 should be fine, but I'd still check.

Also, in the Nat Forests of Va, EBR/Assault rifles are fine as long as you're following the rules regarding hunting seasons, etc. We frequently have our ARs at camp during the season.

Dunno how much of this applies to your situation, but it's how things work here.

Chris

[LAR-15]

You might be charged with hunting out of season.

I'd worry less about the ranger and more about the game warden

[lostone1413]

Here in AZ you can carry anything in the national forest

[AZRickD]

"Assault Weapon?"

What is that, now that the AW portions of the 1994 Crime Bill have been allowed to sunset?

Why use the terminology of an anti?

Their marketing ploys are effective, aren't they?

Rick

[rms/pa]

if in PA you should be ok, but....BUT we also have a law against illegal paramilitary training. what this covers is .... dubious, there has been a prosecution for it.

rms/pa

[therealsteamer]

You might want to look into AEP recreation land
.http://www.aep.com/environmental/stewardship/recland/

[yonderway]

if in PA you should be ok, but....BUT we also have a law against illegal paramilitary training. what this covers is .... dubious, there has been a prosecution for it.

But you can't legally hunt with semi-auto in PA, correct?

[britinaz]

AFAIK National Parks NO, National Forest YES, State Laws Apply.

[jwmoore]

we also have a law against illegal paramilitary training. what this covers is .... dubious, there has been a prosecution for it.
I'd love to read that law and case. Do you have a cite? (Curosity, not flame. :))

~W

[ArmedBear]

AFAIK National Parks NO, National Forest YES, State Laws Apply.

There is no longer a Federal definition of an AW, but State laws do apply on Federal land where guns are allowed (NF, BLM, etc., allow shooting, unless specifically regulated, e.g. some recreation areas on NF land don't allow firearms, and plinking is not allowed in some areas due to garbage problems, safety of campers, etc.).

WRT hunting, remember, SOMETHING is always in season. And there's no law prohibiting me from hunting jackrabbits with a .44 Magnum.:) But you may need a hunting license.

[KriegHund]

Me and my family have been shooting in national forests for a very long time.

Never once have we been given trouble about it- in arizona or in colorado This has been upwards of 10 years.

[xd9fan]

Molon Labe could you tell me what you know as far as starting a Militia?
websites?
thanks!

[biere]

I don't have this years ohio game rule book but it should be online.

A couple years ago coyote would have been the name to use but check this years book for any requirments.

[Molon Labe]

Molon Labe could you tell me what you know as far as starting a Militia?
websites?
thanks!Sure, but it would be a bit off-topic in this thread. Please email me (magcraft@main-net.com), and I'll answer your questions off-line.

[Molon Labe]

I really appreciate everyone's comments.

It would appear that, from a strictly legal POV, there's no federal or Ohio law saying a person can't carry an assault weapon through Wayne National Forest; ergo you're allowed (by default). But having said that, common sense dictates it would be wise to have a more civil comeback than "because there's no law against it" if confronted by a rogue forest ranger. A backup plan would be prudent.

So I checked Ohio's hunting regulations:

http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/PDF/Pub085.pdf

According to the linked document, Coyote season is 365 days a year. Furthermore, the document does not state a limitation on the type or caliber of firearm. But you do need a hunting license.

So as a backup, we could ask everyone to purchase a hunting license. How's that?

[yonderway]

So as a backup, we could ask everyone to purchase a hunting license. How's that?

That's what works for some of my camping pals.

[Molon Labe]

So let me ask this general question:

If I'm carrying a firearm through the woods, is there an assumption I am hunting? If confronted by a game warden could he say, "You are carrying a firearm, therefore you must be hunting. Let me see your hunting license." If I do not produce a hunting license, will he give me a ticket? Even though I'm not hunting?

[mtnbkr]

So let me ask this general question:

If I'm carrying a firearm through the woods, is there an assumption I am hunting? If confronted by a game warden could he say, "You are carrying a firearm, therefore you must be hunting. Let me see your hunting license." If I do not produce a hunting license, will he give me a ticket? Even though I'm not hunting?

In Virginia, yes. Unless it's a concealed handgun AND you have a CCW permit.

Dunno about the rest of the country though. 12 years ago, I went camping in the Pisgah National Forest outside of Brevard, NC. We called the local ranger ahead of time and asked if it would be ok to do some plinking with handguns while camped there. We were told it was no problem as long as we used a safe backstop. This was during the summer, so there were no open seasons. We didn't have CCW licenses either. I don't know if things have changed since then or if it's done differently in Va. When I contaced a Va ranger's office a few years ago about the same thing, we were told 1) no shooting in the Forest except at designated ranges and 2) no guns unless legally hunting or with CCW permit.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

According to the linked document, Coyote season is 365 days a year
You might want to clarify that with a game warden or ranger. Here in Va, the national forest has different seasons than private land. What's a continous open season statewide is a more limited season in the national forest. To the best of my knowledge, all hunting in the national forest runs primarly Oct-may (with various gaps when no seasons overlap). There's no legal hunting from the end of turkey until oct.

Chris

[Malone LaVeigh]

If you plan to do any kind of organized event in a National Forest, you may need a Special Use Permit. This may never become an issue if the group is small and you don't charge admission or affect any resources. If you do, the District will probably need to do an the environmental documentation before issuing the permit. That could take time, figure up to 6 months. Most District planning teams are woefully overworked and under staffed these days.

Contact the local Ranger District, probably the Information Officer. The Ranger (not "rangers") is the line officer who will ultimately make the decision. There are two types of Rangers in my experience, and they are both political animals. One type are the old-fashioned type who are long-term members of their community who take seriously the motto: "To protect the land and serve the people." The other types are ladder climbers who are serving their requisite time on a District before moving up to a SO or RO position. A lot of the older types are retiring these days.

FS LEOs are liable to be really nervous with your group, as they spend most of their time these days dealing with armed pot growers and meth cooks.

[lazarus]

It seems to me that one of the easiest ways to put a ranger's heart at ease would be to demonstrate that none of you are carrying any ammo (or mags) and that the guns are cleaned and, obviously have not been fired recently. Make sense?

[lazarus]

....or leave the bolts at home....?

[gunsmith]

in Mendocino California and asked them about carrying and shooting in CA national forest, they said "just use common sense safety rules" ...
We need a militia in CA National Forest, it is being over run with illegal aliens setting up pot farms, citizens are being attacked ...this guy was killed on his own land by pot farmers.

[yonderway]

in Mendocino California and asked them about carrying and shooting in CA national forest, they said "just use common sense safety rules" ...
We need a militia in CA National Forest, it is being over run with illegal aliens setting up pot farms, citizens are being attacked ...this guy was killed on his own land by pot farmers.

Sounds like a militia is needed to go coyote hunting in the National Forests there. If they are assaulted by pot farmers, do they not have justification in CA to defend themselves with lethal force?

[gunsmith]

If they are assaulted by pot farmers, do they not have justification in CA to defend themselves with lethal force?
....
The guy was hiking with a nephew on his rural land (near Yosemite I believe) and was ambushed. He never had a chance and they never caught the killers.
I's apparently a big very undereported story.
I've heard CA hikers are routinely held at gunpoint by illegal alien pot farmers.
These are not your birkenstock yankee hippies, theses are Mexican drug cartel employees who don't mind killing. It's easier to grow here then smuggle from there.
http://minutemanhq.com/b2/index.php/national/2005/12/06/p246
Is this hijacking the thread?....oop's , sorry!

[rms/pa]

I'd love to read that law and case. Do you have a cite? (Curosity, not flame. :))

~W
sorry to say no, the case was about ten years ago. a black farmer near williamsport had folks up from maryland/dc area doing range shooting on his farm. the folks got arrested on some kind of weapons charges and the farmer got charged with the paramilitary training thing.

Yondering: afaik semis are not legal in PA for hunting but it has been a loooong time since i have hunted legaly.

rms/pa