Quick! I need help here!


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g-nome
December 21, 2005, 10:36 AM
I think this is the right place to post this. Found this place not too long ago. Need some help and fast. Be prepared for utter-noob questions.

Taking a trip to Missouri in the next few weeks and need a gun!
Iím looking to buy a cheap, dirt cheap bolt action.
So hereís what I need . . .
Looking at Savages. I like the model 12. I was told 110ís are no longer available? Is that true? Anything compare to the 110?
Need a heavy/bull barrel.
Want something synthetic and blued.
And need it to be in the package setup with the scope, etc.
Have any of you had one or heard of one that grouped in the .25moa range out of the box with whatever load you used in them? Iíve heard that they regularly are able to do this and that itís not rare to get one that does.

I need something that at least groups sub MOA. First time out shooting a rifle ever was at a small bore meet/group they told me I shot something they called .25 MOA is that any good? (They seemed to think so anyway).
So I was told for how I was shooting I needed something that at least grouped sub MOA or at least as close to .25 MOA as possible.
Yes I know a 22 is nothing like a 308 or 30-06 but I just want something that is cheap and has some good range to it.




Okay now, I need to know how to clean one of these things--yes I need to know to properly clean a bolt gun. I have no idea, really. Been shooting a while and have just been using other peopleís guns. And never really had to clean any myself. I know, kinda weak.

From the studying Iíve done, Iíve at least decided on this:
I want an Otis kit
Still want a coated straight rod for the possibility of obstructions.
So whatís a good rod and whatís a good bore guide?
Okay so thereís two types of solvents? Copper and powder? What brand do you suggest I get?
What about oil? What do you suggest?
What kind of bore brush do I need?




Okay onto cleaning . . .

Should you clean (if you can) immediately after firing before the gun cools or not?

What do you do to prevent solvent from contacting the scope?

What about preventing solvent flicking off the bristles into the receiver?

Does the Otis system come with a 30 cal brush?

You run copper or powder solvent down first? Do you really need to stroke the brush down a few times or just once and let it sit awhile?

So after that you just run patches until they come out clean?

How do you clean the bore out? Just brush it out really well? Do you use solvent for that too?

What do I need to clean the bolt, receiver and trigger assembly with? Does the bolt need to be disassembled after every use?

Do you need to remove the rifle from the stock at all? Or just not very often?

Iím being told certain things should be cleaned after so many rounds are put through the rifle. So what parts should be cleaned after xxx amount of rounds?

One last thing where can you find cheap 30-06 and 308 in bulk?


Thanks I am really desperate here. Oh,also, let me know if I missed anything in terms of how to clean or cleaning gear selection. Thanks.

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Preacherman
December 21, 2005, 10:59 AM
G-nome, you really need to use the Search function to check out past posts, which will give you a whole lot of information. You're asking for so much in your post that I don't think anyone could answer it without hours of typing! I'd also recommend getting a few good books and/or rifle magazines to read, so as to soak up as much background information as possible.

TheEgg
December 21, 2005, 11:16 AM
Yeah, what Preacherman said. But

Have any of you had one or heard of one that grouped in the .25moa range out of the box with whatever load you used in them?

I would give that a qualified 'no'. While I guess it is possible that somewhere out there there is a factory rifle that could approach this, it would be like finding the holy grail. Sub-MOA (about 1 inch at 100 yards) is just plain outstanding for any factory rifle/factory ammunition combination. To beat that usually takes copious amounts of money in the form of custom gun-tuning and hand loaded ammunition.

Having said all of that, there is almost nothing that a noob will do with a rifle that will not be done just fine with a good factory rifle/factory load combination. You don't really need better performance than that unless you are a benchrest competitor or are a sniper/counter sniper in LE or the military.

So the guys that are guiding you to try to find a factory .25 MOA rifle I think are doing you a disservice. I would ignore that.

Savage, Winchester, Remington will all give you adequate accuracy.

another okie
December 21, 2005, 11:21 AM
Tell us your proposed use and we can be much more helpful.

waterhouse
December 21, 2005, 11:28 AM
What exactly will you be doing with this rifle? As Egg said, .25 MOA out of a factory rifle is not likely (although I guess that depends on how you define factory . . .you could spend several grand on an AI, but you aren't going to fing one at your local gun shop).

You ask a lot of questions, but for starters, "dirt cheap" and .25 MOA don't go together.

If you let us know what your budget is and what you want to do with the rifle we can probably help you out.

Stickjockey
December 21, 2005, 11:35 AM
+1 to Preacherman's search function pointer. A couple more bits though:

Why do you need sub-MOA? I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally speaking, "dirt cheap" and "sub-MOA" are sort of contradictory. BTW, ".25MOA" means that if the shooter does his bit, the gun will put a group of rounds into a circle roughly 1/4" in diameter at a range of 100 yards.

As to cleaning, my reccommendation would be to just buy a one-piece rod, a set of cleaning brushes, and a set of cleaning jags. Any of the powder solvents and gun oils on the market will work. Cleaning has been covered here extensively.

g-nome
December 21, 2005, 11:43 AM
G-nome, you really need to use the Search function to check out past posts, which will give you a whole lot of information. You're asking for so much in your post that I don't think anyone could answer it without hours of typing! I'd also recommend getting a few good books and/or rifle magazines to read, so as to soak up as much background information as possible.

:( But like I said I'm leaving in a few weeks.
I'm 16 just starting out. Pathetic newbie I know.
Basically I just need a general run-down on how to clean it. I think I can take it from there.

I would give that a qualified 'no'. While I guess it is possible that somewhere out there there is a factory rifle that could approach this, it would be like finding the holy grail. Sub-MOA (about 1 inch at 100 yards) is just plain outstanding for any factory rifle/factory ammunition combination. To beat that usually takes copious amounts of money in the form of custom gun-tuning and hand loaded ammunition.
Oops forgot to mention; this thing wouldn't be for the match shooting we're doing at the bench/match shoot/high power/smallbore deal. This is just to screw around with. But I'm just going with what the pros at the group meet told me; get something as accurate as you can (while not going overboard on the price). I shoulda' been more clear in my writing sorry.
From what you're saying about sub moa then, is .25 just a crappy group size then? I got the impression it was pretty good for a starter . . . :confused:

Tell us your proposed use and we can be much more helpful.

What I need more specifically? Really just 30 cal that shoots fairly accurately to plink with.--I like the recoil and stuff. :) And don't mind the extra ammo cost.


Thanks

Henry Bowman
December 21, 2005, 11:55 AM
From what you're saying about sub moa then, is .25 just a crappy group size then? I got the impression it was pretty good for a starter . . .No, that's an incredibly good group size. 1 MOA is roughly 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200 yds, etc.

waterhouse
December 21, 2005, 12:19 PM
I'll try and explain this, but I'll probably mess up and someone else can correct what I get wrong.

Every rifle has a "capable" accuracy. If you put the rifle in a rest (take the human out of the equation), and shoot match grade ammo, with no wind or any other outside influences, the resulting group (the holes from the bullets) on the target would have a spread. The distance of that spread is what the rifle is capable of doing under ideal conditions. In a perfect world all of the bullets would pass through the same exact hole, but this doesn't happen in reality.

Without going into all of the math (there are some angles and subtending of circles) a MOA is basically 1 inch at 100 yards, 2 inches at 200 yards, 3 inches at 300, etc. So .25 MOA is several shots (a group) that are within a quarter inch at 100 yards. That is really, really good. People pay lots of money for rifles that can do this.

It sounds like you don't need a rifle like this. For hunting or shooting cans or paper, a rifle that shoot 2 inches at 100 yards is plenty good enough. Pretty much any rifle off the shelf will be fine.

You also say you want a heavy barrel. Bull barrel guns tend to also be at the top of a price range for most manufacturers. Savage rifles do represent a very good value for the money, and they tend to be very accurate. Don't forget to budget some money for a good scope.

hso
December 21, 2005, 12:54 PM
Iím looking to buy a cheap, dirt cheap bolt action.
So hereís what I need . . .Need a heavy/bull barrel.
Want something synthetic and blued. ...And need it to be in the package setup with the scope, etc....Have any of you had one or heard of one that grouped in the .25moa range out of the box with whatever load you used in them? Iíve heard that they regularly are able to do this and that itís not rare to get one that does.

Sorry, but I've never heard of any major caliber rifle that fits this description.


As to cheap 30.06 ammo go to Cheaper Than Dirt for korean milsurp.

Stickjockey
December 21, 2005, 02:03 PM
.25MOA=3-5 rounds into a circle roughly one-third the diameter of a dime at 100 yards. Just for a visual.

Red Tornado
December 21, 2005, 03:25 PM
You also need to qualify what you consider cheap, dirt cheap. To me that says $100-$200, and you're not going to get great accuracy. However, if you're looking at Savages, you're probably more in the $400-$600 range, correct? Savages are probably the most accurate for the money.

One you might look at is the Stevens 200. They're made by Savage, and some come with a scope package, check Wal-Mart http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2684985

Usually heavy barrel rifles don't include scope packages, but there may be some.

Lastly, the cheap surplus 30-06 or .308 isn't going to give you MOA regardless of the rifle. You'll need target ammo to even consider that. Good luck.
RT

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