[onerifle]

I'm now convinced that NY legislators are hopelessly out of touch with reality- and The Constitution. 'sides- how do you "train employees to recognize those prohibited from buying guns", anyway? :what:


Tough gun laws backed in Lower Hudson
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051221/NEWS02/512210328/1018
By JONATHAN BANDLER
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original Publication: December 21, 2005)

WHITE PLAINS — Law enforcement officials from Westchester, Rockland and Putnam counties joined Republican legislators yesterday in supporting tougher gun laws and sentences for crimes against police in the wake of two recent fatal shootings of New York City officers.

Gov. George Pataki has called a special session of the state Legislature for today to address two bills — one that would close loopholes that weaken existing gun trafficking laws and the other that would stiffen sentences for those who injure or kill police officers. Supporters want a mandatory death penalty for anyone convicted of killing a police officer.

"We need to protect the people who protect us," state Assemblyman Louis Mosiello of Yonkers, a retired Mamaroneck police sergeant and former Westchester legislator, said at a news conference at Westchester District Attorney Jeanine Pirro's office. Putnam District Attorney Kevin Wright and Rockland District Attorney Michael Bongiorno also spoke and those in attendance included police Chiefs James Bradley of White Plains, Timothy Bonci of Eastchester and David Hall of Harrison.

The news conference was one of 11 around the state organized by Republicans pushing for the legislation in the wake of this month's fatal New York Police Department shootings.

Officer Daniel Enchautegui was killed Dec. 10 when he was shot while off duty responding to a burglary next door to his Bronx home. Two Yonkers men, actor Lillo Brancato Jr. and his ex-girlfriend's father, Steven Armento, are charged in that case. Officer Dillon Stewart was killed in Brooklyn on Nov. 28, allegedly by a man with an illegal handgun who is also charged with shooting another officer during a robbery a few weeks earlier.

Existing gun laws restrict the number of guns sold in a single transaction, but Pataki's bill adds a provision to stiffen penalties for a quantity of guns sold over a year, not just at one time. It would also make the possession of three or more handguns a felony. It is currently a misdemeanor to possess up to 19 guns.

Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, a Democrat, has responded by introducing two bills himself. One would stiffen penalties for crimes against police officers but would not include the death penalty. The other goes beyond Pataki's gun trafficking bill by requiring gun dealers to lock their guns at night and train their employees to recognize those prohibited from buying guns.

While Republicans have tried to paint Silver and other Democratic leaders in the Assembly as soft on crime, Silver has accused Pataki and Senate Republicans of working on behalf of the National Rifle Association to protect loopholes that contribute to the illegal gun market.

Pataki called the special session but cannot force a vote, and leaders of the Republican-controlled Senate and the Democratic-controlled Assembly have been negotiating the past two days to reach a consensus. Bills would have to pass both houses.

Assemblyman Ryan Karben, a Democrat from Monsey, said he supported the death penalty for those who kill police officers and would vote for the bills of both Pataki and Silver.

"The important thing is to make our streets safer for law enforcement," Karben said. "However we get there, we should get there."

[auschip]

It is currently a misdemeanor to possess up to 19 guns.

So if you have 19 or more guns you are safe, but if you own less then 19 you have committed a misdemeanor? Either the reporter screwed up (most likely), or it is a state requirement to own 19 firearms, and soon only two of those firearms may be pistols. :evil:

[WT]

The reporter left out a couple of words.

Pataki's bill makes possession of three ILLEGAL handguns a felony. Prior to the bill, having illegal handguns in one's possession was a misdemeanor. Now three illegal guns trade for 2 years in prison.

Having 10 ILLEGAL guns awards the possessor with 25 years in prison.

The key word is 'ILLEGAL' which the reporter left out.

[Camp David]

The key word is 'ILLEGAL' which the reporter left out.

What is NY's definition of an "illegal" gun? One in which you do not have a Bill of Sale for? How is an "illegal" gun characterized?

[scubie02]

I believe the way the law works in the past if you were someone who's "not supposed to have guns"--for instance, you were ACCUSED of domestic violence (not even found guilty, just accused, which is a common divorce tactic to get custody of children, etc) in the past it would just be a misdemeanor if you hadn't committed any other crime than being found to own guns. Now (the bills passed) you are not just a felon, but a violent felon. So you never want to get married or even have a live in gf or anything, because if she decides to make trouble and just SAY you verbally abused her or something, you are a violent felon if you own more than 3 guns.

They don't call it the Empire State for nothing.

And I do NOT mean to take anything away from police officers when I say this, but I find it offensive that they value the lives of police officers more than the lives of any other citizen. It is not right to have the penalty be worse if a police officer is killed than it is for anyone else, IMO. It is not worse any less, and no more. But once again that is what the law reads. The law was already on the books that the only way to get the death penalty was to kill an LEO in NY, but in practice even though people got sentenced, executions were not being carried it. SO the new law says that you AUTOMATICALLY get life without parole if a cop is killed. It is also now a violent felony to "menace" a cop, so best say "yes sir, no sir" if you get pulled over in one of those traffic stops, 'cause all they have to say is they felt "menaced" by you if you're not polite, and you're a violent felon...

[CAS700850]

So, WT, would this mean "illegal" guns, such as stolen guns or guns with the serial numbers removed? Or could it mean legal guns, but that the possessor is barred from possessing, perhaps due to prior criminal convictions?

[Black92LX]

[QUOTE=yonderway]This is such a load, putting the value of an officer's life above the value of a civilian's life.QUOTE]

I will agree with your statement. I belive you unjustifiably kill anyone you should die. No matter who they are.

[Ares]

In NY an Illegal Handgun is any handgun used in a crime and/or any handgun in the posession of someone who does not have a permit to own/carry it. In NY you need a permit to even own a handgun legally let alone carry it.

Pataki isn't really a Republican anyway he's a democrat in republican clothing and he's most definately anti-gun... After all why blame the criminals in this crime when you can just pass more of your gun control agenda?

[WT]

Illegal means illegal.

Stolen guns, guns with serial numbers defaced, guns 'lost' in Florida but found in New York, guns 'misplaced' by dealers in Georgia but found in New York, guns found in the hands of felons .......... the usual stuff.

[CAS700850]

So, then, the original post indicating mere possession of three handguns wasn't really accurate. They need to be three stolen guns, ro something along that line. This isn't (yet) a move to limit the number of firearms that can be legally owned, right?

[WT]

CAS - that is correct. If you legally own 4 handguns, there is no problem.

[CAS700850]

Thanks WT, just worried that the geniuses over here in Ohio might follow New yorks lead down a bad path.

[Ares]

Correct, I live in NY and I own 4 as well.

However... if you legally bought and owned 4 handguns in say Ohio, then moved to NY and brought them with you you would in fact have 4 illegal handguns in NY because you can't get the permit first and the mere possession of them makes them illegal without a permit. No grace period period is allowed notta. For that matter don't drive through the state with one in your car and get caught, don't take one on a flight with an overnight in NYC (they will nail you, ask Michael Moore bodygaurd, what poetic justice that was) don't have one in NY period.

[Spot77]

If only cops were as enthusiastic about protecting the lives of the people they are sworn to protect & serve, as opposed to their own little self-serving fraternity.

Let's change that to, "If only the Supreme Court was as enthusiastic about protecting the lives....yada yada." Remember it 's the SC that ruled that police have no duty to protect you.



Do New Yorkers need a "pistol permit" to own a handgun? If so, do you need a permit for EACH gun or just one permit allowing you all of your guns?

ETA: never mind the first part of the queation. I see that somebody already answered it.

[Reddog1]

"The important thing is to make our streets safer for law enforcement," Karben said. "However we get there, we should get there."[/QUOTE]


Even at the cost of law abidding people's rights. To me ,this shows just how much LEOs have placed themselves above the rest of us. Equal rights? Not
even close.

[neoncowboy]

putting the value of an officer's life above the value of a civilian's life.

I don't read it this way at all. When the laws make assault/killing/threatening a police officer that much more serious an offense, I see it more as a valuation of order in the society than a valuation of the individual police officer's life.

An attack on the human force that 'protects NYers from crime' (yeah, I know that's the ideal and not the reality) is not so much a threat to an individual, but to the safety of everybody...the community at large.

I can see their reasoning

It is also now a violent felony to "menace" a cop, so best say "yes sir, no sir" if you get pulled over in one of those traffic stops, 'cause all they have to say is they felt "menaced" by you if you're not polite, and you're a violent felon...

That, like most of the measures being taken in NY today, is a load of crap.

Does nobody else see the sign of the times? We are on the slippery slope toward a police/nanny-state where everyone is either a felon or a loyal party member...either way, controlled by the government.

What was that thread about the relevance of the militia?

[cordex]

For that matter don't drive through the state with one in your car and get caught, don't take one on a flight with an overnight in NYC (they will nail you, ask Michael Moore bodygaurd, what poetic justice that was) don't have one in NY period.
I know some people who went to Africa for a hunt a couple of years ago. They flew out of New York with one handgun and one rifle apiece. As I recall, because of metal detectors at the entrances to Laguardia, they had to find a police officer to get their guns in. The officer demanded to examine each and every weapon and kept complimenting their guns. Eventually, the guns were checked and they flew out without problem.

I'm not sure if the officer in question didn't bust them just because he was a good guy, because he didn't know he should have arrested them or because he didn't have cause. All I know is that they showed their handguns to a police officer at an airport in NYC and didn't get in any trouble. None of them live in NYC, much less have NYC paperwork on their guns.

[Vermont Guy]

As I read the law posted on the state web site and as described on the WWW.NYSRPA.ORG website, possession of 10 guns period will soon be a felony in NY.

[scubie02]

Do New Yorkers need a "pistol permit" to own a handgun? If so, do you need a permit for EACH gun or just one permit allowing you all of your guns?


yes, you need a permit to even own a handgun in NY, even to have in your house. In fact, in most of the more anti-gun counties (they are issued by the county) its almost impossible to get an actual carry permit, and IF they deign to give you one, its a premises permit. Your handguns are all registered--they are listed on your actual permit, which must be carried at all times. (Unlike my PA permit, which licenses YOU, not the guns, so you get a permit, but the guns don't have to be listed.

I am fortunate in that my permit's nearly 20 years old and a full carry permit, but even the counties that used to be pretty much shall issue where I am are mostly getting alot tougher, and Pataki has been waaaaay more antigun than Cuomo ever was and never misses an attempt to try to get more gun control. What a piece of work that guy is, and yet people keep voting for him...unreal. I seriously vote for pretty much anyone over him every time, but to no avail. I really don't even think a democrat would be worse because then even if they are just as antigun, they are unlikely to get as much republican cooperation in the state assembly as Pataki might get.

NY is cursed with many of the worst politicians in the whole country. I really wish we could separate from NYC, but of course that never gets anywhere, and there arr too many of them who have moved upstate to really kill their influence.

[Legionnaire]

Vermont Guy, got a direct link to the NYSRPA description? It isn't obvious at the link you provided, and I didn't see it after nosing around for a bit. Thanks.

[CAS700850]

Even at the cost of law abidding people's rights. To me ,this shows just how much LEOs have placed themselves above the rest of us. Equal rights? Not
even close.

Reddog1, please don't judge all LEO's by this example. I work with many LEO's who respect the rights of individuals, and are firmly commiteed to the RKBA. Check out the membership of this Board, and you'll find many LEO's who share many of your beliefs.

[rick_reno]

Aren't those "illegal guns" the ones that sneak out at night and shoot people?

[CAS700850]

"The important thing is to make our streets safer for law enforcement," Karben said. "However we get there, we should get there."


Even at the cost of law abidding people's rights. To me ,this shows just how much LEOs have placed themselves above the rest of us. Equal rights? Not
even close.[/QUOTE]

[Graystar]

In the state of New York only certain guns are categorized as "firearms." Rifles and shotguns are not "firearms". Handguns, automatic weapons, and disguised guns are considered "firearms".

In New York it is illegal to possess a firearm. Period.

Firearm restrictions fall under general weapons restrictions, so the penalties are different depending on what you possess.

Possession of a handgun is a misdemeanor.
Possession of twenty firearms is a felony.
Possession of an automatic or disguised firearm is a felony.
You are presumed to be trying to sell firearms when you possess 5 or more.

When you receive a handgun license, none of the penal 265 restrictions on handgun possession apply to you, except for possession on school grounds. You can own 100 handguns if you like.

3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
barrel on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or
breechlock when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance
between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
the center line of the bore. Firearm does not include an antique
firearm.


6. The possession of five or more firearms by any person is
presumptive evidence that such person possessed the firearms with the
intent to sell same.

[bg]

This is such a load, putting the value of an officer's life above the value of a civilian's life.

If only cops were as enthusiastic about protecting the lives of the people they are sworn to protect & serve, as opposed to their own....fraternity.
Interesting you should post this. Look what Diaz says about it. By
the way the legislature passed the more restrictive gun bills with amendments. Pataki to sign.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stgun224561726dec22,0,1517691.story?coll=ny-statenews-headlines
State Sen. Ruben Diaz, whose daughter is a New York City police officer, said the police protection bill ignored the vast majority of killings in the state. He voted against it.

"I have to ask myself if the life of a police officer is worth more than the life of a bodega owner, a taxi driver, a senior citizen or any other New Yorker," the Bronx Democrat said.

[neoncowboy]

I don't see how they (and any other anti-2A-state/city government) can so flagrantly infringe on the people's right to keep and bear arms.

When Alabama governments had Jim Crow laws and refused to integrate schools, the feds sent FBI agents and troops to enforce federal rulings that guaranteed black people the right to vote and access to public schools.

Why isn't the injustice of municipalities encroaching on 2A freedoms being addressed?

[Graystar]

I don't see how they (and any other anti-2A-state/city government) can so flagrantly infringe on the people's right to keep and bear arms.

When Alabama governments had Jim Crow laws and refused to integrate schools, the feds sent FBI agents and troops to enforce federal rulings that guaranteed black people the right to vote and access to public schools.

Why isn't the injustice of municipalities encroaching on 2A freedoms being addressed?Just a few months ago the 2nd Circuit said that the Second Amendment is only a restriction against the federal government.

Although the sweep of the Second Amendment has become the focus of a national legal dialogue, we see no need to enter into that debate," Wesley said. "Instead, we hold that the Second Amendment's 'right to keep and bear arms' imposes on only federal, not state, legislative efforts.
Bach v. Pataki, 03-9123

[jefnvk]

Supporters want a mandatory death penalty for anyone convicted of killing a police officer.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the death penalty for anyone convicted with on doubt of murdering anyone.

[ka50]

joined Republican legislators yesterday in supporting tougher gun laws

hmmm.....

[Powderman]

Art's editing made the post unnecessary.

[Graystar]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the death penalty for anyone convicted with on [no?] doubt of murdering anyone.Since when is it okay to convict *with* doubt??

[Vermont Guy]

Vermont Guy, got a direct link to the NYSRPA description? It isn't obvious at the link you provided, and I didn't see it after nosing around for a bit. Thanks.

You're right, it wasn't obvious.

http://nysrpa.org/blog/?p=192

[c_yeager]

It is currently a misdemeanor to possess up to 19 guns.


When did journalists forget how to speak English? According to this statement its illegal to possess 18 guns, but perfectly OK to have 20.

[Standing Wolf]

If I were a criminal, I'd ply my trade in New York.

[Graystar]

When did journalists forget how to speak English? According to this statement its illegal to possess 18 guns, but perfectly OK to have 20.
:rolleyes:

The journalist did not say that it was okay to possess 20 guns. That is a conclusion that you jumped to, and as such, should be banished to the doldrums. This is a bad habit that many forum members have, especially when reading legal opinions. Erroneously drawn conclusions are the largest source of misunderstanding in many of the discussions I’ve seen here.

On your 20th gun you move up to a felony. That is why it is a misdemeanor to possess up to 19 guns.

[Car Knocker]

Deleted - answer found.

[mr.trooper]

PSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!

Maybee in the United Yorkers' Socialist republic, or Comiforniastan.

Not in Free-Town USA.

[c_yeager]

On your 20th gun you move up to a felony. That is why it is a misdemeanor to possess up to 19 guns.

And where does the article indicate that 20 is the magical number to become a felony?

That is a conclusion that you jumped to, and as such, should be banished to the doldrums. This is a bad habit that many forum members have, especially when reading legal opinions. Erroneously drawn conclusions are the largest source of misunderstanding in many of the discussions I’ve seen here.

Did you also happen to notice that the author makes no distinction between legally owned guns, which DO EXIST in NYC? That is where the author fails to convey his meaning.

:rolleyes:

[Graystar]

And where does the article indicate that 20 is the magical number to become a felony? Nowhere. There is no indication at all in the article of what happens when you have 20 guns. Nor is it necessary. The article completely conveys the point...that previously, possession of up to 19 handguns was considered a misdemeanor and now possession of 3 is considered a felony.

That is a conclusion that you jumped to… No, I know NY law. The law making possession of 20 guns a felony is Penal 265.02(5)(i).

Did you also happen to notice that the author makes no distinction between legally owned guns, which DO EXIST in NYC? Because there is no need to. The concern is with what’s been defined as criminal behavior. None of these laws apply to legally possessed firearms.

:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

[oldfart]

Three? I have a friend who carries three!

[AF_INT1N0]

CAS700850

Reddog1, please don't judge all LEO's by this example. I work with many LEO's who respect the rights of individuals, and are firmly commiteed to the RKBA. Check out the membership of this Board, and you'll find many LEO's who share many of your beliefs.

Problem #1 Cops on this board, and ones like them are not in charge...

If they were we wouldn't be having this discussion..

Most of your line officers (at least the ones I have met) are good guys for the most part..

But like I have said (probably more times than anyone wants to hear) is that you, choose the most ignorant, *sshats amongst you to be in charge, and be on T.V.

This holds especially true in cities. I don't know why, but thats how it works.


Problem #2 Hurricanes don't occur that far North.

[Legionnaire]

Thanks, Vermont Guy.