Instant kill with a knife?


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1911JMB
December 22, 2005, 09:29 PM
A friend of mine was recently at a store when it was robbed by a lone gunman. He, like me owns a pistol, but is not yet 21 and therefor can't carry it. He was ordered to the floor along with everybody else, and had a fair chance to stick his SOG Pentagon Elite into this guys neck or somthing while he was pointing his gun at the lady at the register. Instead, he decided not to tempt fate and did nothing. The dirt bag did get away.

All discussions about what actually happened aside, would it have been theoretically possible for my buddy to get this guy by surprise, and incapacitate him before he could have got a shot off? I think most of us know about brain stem shots, but what about instant kills with knives?

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birddog
December 22, 2005, 09:35 PM
I'm certainly not speaking from experience but, speaking from extensive bowhunting experience I can say confidently that with the appropriate knife placement, the bad guy could have been dead right there. Sudden and violent bloodloss can bring near-instant unconsciousness. Would it have been appropriate in this situation? Would your friend likely have ended up dead too? Possible.

ecos
December 22, 2005, 09:48 PM
personally i wouldnt count on a instant kill. i would make trapping the gun arm and getting it pointed a safe direction #1 priority and then strike whatever i could reach. he might be dead within a few tenths of a second with a good thrust but could still pull the trigger without even thinking.

this is coming from someone with no formal training though

im glad your friend is ok

hso
December 22, 2005, 09:51 PM
No

There is no guarantee that anyone could have prevented the BG getting a shot off. The simple truth is you could kill the BG instantly with a blade inserted into the brain stem and vigorously sweapt to pith the brian and he still could have reflexivly pulled the trigger.

You can sever the arteries of the throat and still spend 20-30 seconds struggling with a guy in the red gooey syrup spurting from his neck.

Short of blowing his head off his shoulders, if the victem is pumped on adrenaline it is impossible to be sure to kill him instantly so he can't take a breath or flinch.

JShirley
December 22, 2005, 09:56 PM
guarantee

Like hso said, no guarantee. I have effected an instant kill on a deer with a knife, so I'm certain it can be done to a human.

mr.trooper
December 22, 2005, 10:23 PM
If he is strong enough to ram that Pentagon to through his skull, and sink the blade 5" into his brain, then sure; he PROBABLY would have died instantly. The only person i know of that has survived that kind of wound was paralised for a while, and now has a worse short-term memory than a goldfish.

The neck is interesting.

If you sever a carotid artery, Then they will be unconsious, and likely beyond help, within 15 seconds. There are two carotids: one on each side of the neck. They supply the head and neck with blood.

Another neck based target is one of the jugular veins. There are also two of these. The outer jugular, the one closest to the surface, drains the blood from the surface areas of the head, and from the face. The Internal jugular drains the blood from the brain.

Its fairly easy to kill an asailant with a knife, but it is very difficult to do it instantaniously. in the few second of life they have left, it is still possible that they oculd shoot you and run out the door. They wont get far, but you will be in just as bad a shape as the bad guy.

if you HAD to use a knife, you would be beter off puting the assailant into a hold or a lock, and then striking with the knife. This minimizes, but does not eliminate the possibility of getting your Arse shot off.

Sorry, but the bottome line is the CQB's are deadly buisness no matter how you slice it. :(

shermacman
December 22, 2005, 10:28 PM
Pretty much agree with the above posters. If you are close enough for a knife strike, you are close enough to control the BG's weapon. Control first, strike second. A knife is a very dangerous weapon in the hands of an experienced user.

James T Thomas
December 22, 2005, 10:53 PM
An indirect answer for you.
The ancient Japanese "bushi;" called in the West, "Samuai" were well aware that even their awesome "Katanas" were subject to "mutual killing" by an adversary who knew he was not a skilled enough to defeat his attacker, but had resolved to kill him for his efforts regardless of his own death. That was even in the face of the terrible sword being capable of "cutting" a man from the top of his head through to his groin!

So, by inference, I would suppose that a knife; even a "Bowie" or similar blade, would be unable to inflict an immediate incapacitation upon an adversary who was aware of your intentions, and had made up his mind to kill you for your efforts.

The battlefield spearmen in feudal Japan had developed a twirling procedure to incise a figure eight chunk out of your heart in the same motion of the inserting thrust to preclude themselves from also getting pierced, and they still were killed often also.
So...

trueblue1776
December 22, 2005, 11:13 PM
YES YES YES YES, and I can let you prove it without hurting each other!!!!! The brachial artery runs down each side of the neck (on the side toward the back), even a light punch will drop most anyone (light, dont cause your friends any permanant damage). Even the split second disruption of blood to the brain of a light punch will put you down INSTANTLY, a heavy punch will put you unconcious. It is recomended that you use the meat of your hand or arm so as to not injure the vessel. It is ridiculous easy.;)

DISCLAIMER, THIS IS FOR "INFORMATION" ONLY, IF YOU DONT HAVE PRACTICE YOU CAN REALL REALLY HURT SOMEONE!!!!!!

Live and learn baby

bratch
December 22, 2005, 11:28 PM
Instant no guarantee but a good comma cut will definatley add in the chances.

rhubarb
December 22, 2005, 11:39 PM
Only instant incapacitation is through damage to the central nervous system. Knives don't generally work well for penetrating bone to get at the cns.

I don't care what you seen or done, you ain't ever gonna convince me any other way. I never been in combat, but I've shot deer. I've seen deer shot through both front legs, shoulder bones broken, with no identifiable tissue left in their obliterated thoracic cavity, run 20 yards. Even with literally no heart in their chest. As has been said, you better count on a fight for your life even if you get in a good first lick with a knife.

Sunray
December 22, 2005, 11:41 PM
Gun fighting rule number one is have a gun. Number two is don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Your buddy did exactly the right thing.

cz75bdneos22
December 23, 2005, 12:03 AM
No...No...No.:banghead:
we have been desensitized by watching to many Hollywood action films, etc.
hell, why marinate on your response just do dit and live with the consequences...if your'e already been thinking about combating someone, then you must believe in your abilities to do so effectively...why postpone finding out what ya got? run what ya brung, YMMV. for the record when i say you, i'm talking about us all, not you per se...

palerider1
December 23, 2005, 12:10 AM
with little training on this subject i think i would probably lay down too, unless the perp started killing people, then i would look at all the odds and do whatever i could to stop him, calculating all of my odds and opportunities carfully but quickley.
paul gilson
palerider1

wizard of oz
December 23, 2005, 09:06 AM
The brachial artery is in the arm. Think that you meant carotid artery.

There are other options than going for an 'instant kill'. Can't pull the trigger or hold the gun if the tendons of the wrist are cut. Can't aim if the eyes are damaged or full of blood. Can't escape if stuck in the leg or foot. (ie sticking them and running away might work).

Statistically it is probably safer to do nothing. The offender is usually more interested in money than killing someone.

CentralTexas
December 23, 2005, 09:51 AM
I would say a good quality lockblade 4" + and extreme force would penetrate a skull and drop them. With my luck it would be a politician I skull stick and there would be no effect...:p
Prison method- multiple stab wounds quickly for max blood loss. If able to attack from blindside where you could get control of weapon arm or bring perp down with you on top inflicting wounds maybe.
I'm kind of in the camp of better to take action than die on the floor but his gut feel may have been correct as he lived...
CT

1911JMB
December 23, 2005, 10:53 AM
I guess what you guys are telling me is that it might be possible, but its not likely. Thats just as well, because the odds are, if it happens again, my friend will have his gun with him.

hso
December 23, 2005, 11:12 AM
For those of you proposing a stab to the skull into the brain to get an instant incapacitating kill don't count on immediate results each time every time. A friend of mine was a surgical tech and would come over with tales of injuries brought in. He had a guy sent up from ER with a large screw driver stuck in the top of his melon. The guy was very much still conscious and even joked about how "screwed" he was before they put him under for the brain surgery. He survived. -

http://emj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/17/3/225

middy
December 23, 2005, 11:46 AM
With a big, heavy blade, like a large Bowie or kukri, an attempt to chop off the gun hand might be worthwhile.

If you're bigger and stronger or more highly trained in unarmed combat, a lock or hold followed by strike with the knife might work.

Untrained with a 5" dagger? Lay down unless you think he's going to start shooting everyone.

Jim Watson
December 23, 2005, 12:11 PM
Lay low unless you are sure the criminal is fixing to start killing off witnesses, no matter how armed.

I recall an incapacitating knife stroke from old military manuals, stabbing straight down into the triangle of trapezius, collarbone, and neck.

1911JMB
December 23, 2005, 12:12 PM
This friend of mine is a practiced street fighter with no formal training. He doesent know fancy moves, just how to take hits and give out more and better hits. He could have beat the tar out of the guy if they were both unarmed, but since the pistol was involved, yes it looks like he did the right thing. I have 6 years of martial arts training, I carry an A-F folder, and I think I would have probably done just the same thing, unless like everybody pointed out, he started shooting.

JShirley
December 23, 2005, 02:52 PM
Gun fighting rule number one is have a gun. Number two is don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

If you're going to spout silly "rules", how about not showing up for a fight? That would appear to be "Rule Number One". :banghead:

As for knife vs. firearm, the advantages of firearms use are distance and ease of use. At close range, a blade, used well, will kill at least as quickly as any firearm.

As I have said before, knives are rightly used as tools by the vast majority of folks. To deny the possibility of effective knife use, however, is to display one's ignorance.

John

hillbilly
December 23, 2005, 07:32 PM
A large bowie or a khukri can, with one good chop, cut somebody's head clean off.

Ghurkas practice this very move as their method of "sentry removal."

If that's not an "instant kill" then I contend that nothing short of instant vaporization with a nuclear weapon can cause an "instant kill."


hillbilly

1911JMB
December 24, 2005, 09:14 AM
Very true hillbilly, but who is going to have something that big for edc, especially in a yuppee store?

Gordon
December 24, 2005, 02:02 PM
I humanely slaughter farm animals by pushing a 6" or longer very sharp blade (a 1" to 1.5" straight back blade 8" is BEST) thru the side of a quadrapeds neck just below the spine. Then by pivoting the handle away until the blade comes out the severed neck the animmal drops instantly from the massive pressure loss. You CAN go back by making a return draw cut to the spinal column and sever the head.
Interestingly , 1976 I went to a class hosted by Michael Eccanis(sp?) and some hwa rang do master. Mike taught various sentry removal techniques which relied on heart penetration/aorta slicing with overhand frontal /rear assaults. He said you had to 'ride' the prey for a half minute or so though:scrutiny: Also showed to make the poke under the armpit like you stick a pig- I believe this is 'Spanish style'.
He also showed an unusual rear of lower skull attack where you go up under rear of skull and wiggle the knife side to side "like shucking an oyster":what: that he said was 'the only 100% instant kill";)

45R
December 24, 2005, 02:07 PM
but what about instant kills with knives?

No such luck.

JShirley
December 24, 2005, 02:44 PM
My instant kill tech was similar to what Gordon describes- I slammed the deer's head down on the ground, then stabbed inward about halfway into the neck, and out.

J

uxb
December 24, 2005, 03:18 PM
I've done it twice with a knife. Neither was instantaneous. One was lateral from the side upwards into the arm pit with a 7" blade. I lost the element of surprise. He didn't shoot me, but someone else did.

The other was closer to instantaneous, but still not long enough, 3-5 very long and bloody seconds. Another 7" blade straight down in the little soft spot right behind the clavicle. Severs the subclavian vein and the subclavian artery, the carotid artery, the jugular vein, and sometimes you even reach the brachiocephalic artery, and you are sure to collapse the lung. You may not hit all of them, but it is as close to instantaneous as I know. They will become unconscious almost immediately and bleed out rather quickly.

Both times the intent was for me to kill someone with a knife who wouldn't know I was there until they were stuck. Worked once.

Action is faster than reaction, but I would only use a knife if they didn't see it coming.

If someone had a gun on me I would be reluctant to retaliate with a knife, especially since I carry a gun in addition to a knife.

Killing with a knife is bad business and I've never known anyone who has done a successful "instantaneous" kill.

hso
December 25, 2005, 12:01 AM
Before anyone starts jumping up and down and challenging UXB I just want to say that what he describes is spot on from everything I've been taught (from people who I know have done it). If you don't believe him, leave it alone. It's the internet and there's no way for anyone to prove any personal experience to anyone else.

poilu
December 25, 2005, 06:47 AM
brain stem. period.

El Tejon
December 25, 2005, 06:52 AM
Have not seen it yet. In fact I've seen horrific injuries with knives, however most are slashes or even flicks (two drunks in parking lot of bar or domestic squabble). Victims are covered in blood but from strikes/slashes to limbs and torso. However, I rarely see thrusts.

The thrusts I do see are lethal, however they are by no mean instant. I've had cases where murder victims have run a long ways while being stabbed through the heart area--same with pistol bullets (shotgun slug in the heart is the only "instant" stop case I've had).

It CAN be done. When man fought with edged weapons it was practiced over and over. However, it takes time and effort to train to such a degree. More effective to use a firearm.

f4t9r
December 25, 2005, 10:34 AM
what about instant kills with knives?
it can happen , in this case your friend did the right thing
Nobody got hurt and it would not have been worth the chance to get yourself or someone else hurt or killed. depending on whats going down and what you feel your chances are , Its better not to play Hero if not needed.

old4x4
December 26, 2005, 10:36 PM
Yup, base of the skull from the rear. With a severed spinal cord, you're not doing anything. A good thrust between any of the 7 cervical vertabrae. Better make it count as the blade may just bounce off if not in the right place. Your friend probably did the right thing, though

444
December 26, 2005, 11:21 PM
This has already been mentioned, but if you got behind him and cut his throat, severing the major blood vessels in the neck, particularly the carotid arteries, he would be unconscious in seconds.
I have seen this a couple times (cartotid arteries severed) including once with a knife right in front of me: within an arms length. This isn't a matter of bleeding out or instant death, it is a matter of cutting off the blood flow to the brain. No blood: lights out. "Only instant incapacitation is through damage to the central nervous system". This doesn't mean that you have to penetrate the CNS with the knife blade, cutting off the blood is plenty good enough. No blood = no oxygen or glucose = turn out the lights, the party is over. As a kicker, if you inflict a slice on the guy's neck that gets both carotid arteries, it is pretty much a given that you have also cut his trachea in two also.
Note that this results in a blood bath. Big time. If you were hanging on to the guy, you would be absolutely covered in quarts of blood.
I once ran a call on a guy that died almost instantly from a single stab wound to the chest. We were sitting right around the corner, got the call, had a couple minute response time at most. He was DRT. I was really surprised at how fast this guy died. The guy was homeless, but I couldn't help wondering if the guy that stabbed him really knew what he was doing, or it was pure luck.
Years ago, we used to see a LOT of stabbings. One or more a day wasn't unusual in the area I worked. Very few of them were fatal, let alone quickly. I haven't seen a stabbing for years now. It fell out of favor I guess ?

KenpoTex
December 26, 2005, 11:33 PM
Your friend did the right thing by not attacking the guy. If the guy started executing people that would be a different story, otherwise, knife vs. gun is not something I'd want to try. I know...Tueller rule...but still not a safe situation.

As far as the "instant kill," the high payoff targets have already been mentioned: the brain stem/spinal cord (stab upward at the base of the skull); the subclavian artery, etc. (stab down behind the collar-bone); or the carotid artery and jugular vein at the side of the neck (stab in and rip out toward the throat).

The problem one might have is that, as in the situation described, the guy had a gun in his hand. You're going to have to use one of your hands to control his gun arm while trying to make a precise thrust to one of the aforementioned targets. Luckily, I've never had to do it for real, but I think it's safe to assume that it ain't gonna be easy.

tellner
December 26, 2005, 11:52 PM
I have never, thank G-d, had to kill anyone with a knife. But I have done sheep, goats and hogs that way, mostly with a 4-inch Spyderco. In all cases it was "kosher style" - insertion just below the jaw and two cuts severing the major blood vessels, trachea and oesophagus. None of the animals died instantly. All stopped moving within a few seconds. All bled copiously.

The young guy mentioned in the incident did the right thing. The clerk's not getting paid enough to risk her life for whatever is in the till. He's not being paid to risk his life at all. Everyone got to go home in one piece. It's not the best possible result; the bad guy didn't trip and shoot himself in the brain pan. But it's a win.

Protector
December 27, 2005, 12:37 AM
I have been involved with the Filipino Martial Arts for about 20 years now. Several different older Filipino Masters that I have been lucky enough to train with, have each had a slightly different version of 7 stabbing targets that they claim will instantly stop/freeze up an attacker...no claims to instantly lethal. These targets are icepick stab straight down on the top of the skull, icepick stab at about a 45 degree angle into either side of the neck thru the v-shaped opening of the clavicle, straight in under the sternum angled up about 45 degrees, hooking stab into either kidney and straight up into the groin:eek: They all had different theories about brain/pain overload, nervous system damage, etc. but all agreed that briskly inserting a 3 inch or longer knife in these areas, at these angles, would cause the attacker to spasm up and stop moving/swinging/yelling.

Some of these gentleman were involved in WW2 battles for the Phillipines and the Pacific and simply claimed they knew they worked. Not a lot of bragging or wild stories.

JohnKSa
December 27, 2005, 12:46 AM
Even fully cutting off the blood supply to the head may not cause an instant kill. If the person is taken completely by surprise, that might increase the chances, but a person in the middle of a robbery who's already hyped up on adrenalin may be able to survive for a few seconds on zero blood pressure to the brain.

ecos
December 27, 2005, 01:31 AM
i think you can kill someone pretty darn quick with a knife but in the question he said "before he could get a shot off" thats the part im leery about. if the gun was already pointed at someone and you did an attack his finger might tighten on the trigger.

i once witnessed a car accident where a kid was hit by a van at high speed, it took the top of his head off from about eye level up...nothing left there at all (not to mention lots of damage to the rest of his body) im quite sure he was dead but his body laid there twitching for awhile..if he had a gun in his hand there was a very good chance it might have been fired from nerve twitches.

thats what would concern me. if i *had* to do an attack in a situation like that i still think my #1 priority would be to get that gun pointing a safe direction.

on a more positive note i hope u all had a merry christmas :D

Optical Serenity
December 27, 2005, 05:15 PM
Your friend did the right thing. Unless your friend had a pistol and was highly trained with it, he did the right thing.

Darkness
December 30, 2005, 01:16 PM
Yep, I just found this site, and am a newbie, so I feel compelled to reply to threads several days old...

Anyway, in agreement with most everyone else, your friend did the right thing. If the BG had the gun pointed and finger on the trigger, there is no way to instantly incapacitate him with a knife that could be carried on a person.

In order to prevent the finger twitch, the medulla oblongata at the base of the brain must be destroyed. Completely wiped out, not just damaged. Since the medulla oblongata is about the size of a chestnut, it is larger than the skull opening (foramen magnum), you would need a knife small enough to slide into the foramen, or pointed enough to penetrate the skull without said skull being braced. This rules out many wide-bladed knives. It also requires an upward stroke, since knives you can typically carry are not long enough to penetrate the top of the skull all the way down to the medulla, and even if it was, the angle would be really weird.

Anyway, smaller, thinner bladed knives, while being able to do the required penetration, are not immediately capable of inflicting the damage required.

There are countless ways to cause death and incapacitation in seconds, but no real practical ways of instant incapacitation using a typical carry knife.

Uh, in my opinion (working on masters degree in Biology, 16 years of martial arts)

colt.45
December 30, 2005, 11:46 PM
one easy eccess point to the brain is right behind the ear under that ledge of bone. if he got the gun pointed in a safe direction and jamed it up there, he would be getting the guys cerebrum so he would probably die pretty fast

colt.45
December 31, 2005, 12:16 AM
i thought the medulla oblongata was the part that controlled anger.

tellner
December 31, 2005, 05:01 AM
i thought the medulla oblongata was the part that controlled anger.

Believe you're thinking of the amygdala, but that course was a long time ago.

cz75bdneos22
December 31, 2005, 03:34 PM
i thought the medulla oblongata was the part that controlled anger.

it's the Hypothalamus that is responsible for controlling your mood, sleep and other functions. Also, the Vagus Nerve is critical in the transmission of information vital to its function...

blade_collector
January 11, 2006, 10:50 AM
I have no real idea about the firearm side of this as they're illegal here, the UK. But I know of several ways for "instant kills" through the application of blades.

The Phillipino Special Forces train to use a 5"-8" bowie-style knife to combat most adverseries - gun or no gun.

Techniques range from a stealthy attack from behind with a well-placed kick (using the sole of the foot) to the calf just below the knee, pulling back on the chin and either driving a blade through the rib cage into the heart/ventracles or reaching round to cut the jugulars. It's a mix of throwing them off-balance to stop weapon discharge and a speedy death. The Splinter Cell games use the heart strike technique.

Another is a side-on attack in which they take hold of the forearm, pulling the opponent off-balance, while doing so they severe the tendons in the wrist to avoid weapon discharge, then follow with a jugular or heart strike.

Other techniques include stabbing to forearms, the throat or slyly applying finger- and wrist-locks to prevent weapons firing. But the outcome is 9 times out of 10 the death of the opposition - they operate with a "take no prisoners" policy (due to the brutality of the Philopino machete fights).

Also, they usually follow the jugular/heart strikes by putting the body to the ground (on its side) and stabbing to the side of the rib cage 3-5 times. (I guess they think that helps after they've cut the wrists and throats?)

Other targets for quick-kills with knives that I know of are the armpit area and inside the upper arm, inner thigh and groin, kidneys, puncturing the lungs and/or heart and most veins/arteries in the neck... particularly aiming for the areas where the muscle running down the side of the neck meets the throat, struck at 45 degrees on level with the Adam's apple, or stiking in a 45 degree angle upwards at the base of the skull between the tendons at the rear of it.

Then again chopping with the blade of your hand or poking with fingers into the same point of the neck (near the Adam's apple) or punching directly into the top notch of the sturnum can cause instant death without a weapon.

Anyone interested on the subject should look for material on Dim Mak (pressure point fighting), anything by George A. Dillman (founder of a Karate-derivative which focuses on pressure point knock-outs) and trying to get hold of training material for forces like the SAS or Philipino special forces.

So, I wouldn't call the techniques "instant kills", but you can kill someone using a knife before they get a shot off. But the people that're able to do so trained for years to be able to do it.

azrael
January 11, 2006, 11:44 AM
Instant kill's with a knife?? hmmm...

A cavaet...never been special forces nor am I a military or cia super assassin, I am just a humble shoe cobbler that once had a very interesting occupation...but here goes ...

Instant kills with a knife are more or less hollywood...It is difficult to instantly kill someone with a blade...BUT if you can severe the brain stem then they should drop like a ragdoll...

Slamming the blade (at an angle) into the back of the neck up into the brain should do the trick, but it will prolly only work 30% of the time...There is a reason that suppressed weapons are popular and that is what I would suggest using

cant remember where I read it, but some of the gung-ho types used Tomahawks to remove sentries in Nam...just sneak up on them and smash them in the head as hard as you can swing it...Should work pretty good at ruining there day..

unpleasant dreams:evil:

84B20
January 11, 2006, 03:15 PM
Lay low unless you are sure the criminal is fixing to start killing off witnesses, no matter how armed.

I recall an incapacitating knife stroke from old military manuals, stabbing straight down into the triangle of trapezius, collarbone, and neck.

I concur. A cop friend of mine who happened to be a combat experienced VET once told me the same thing but I still think it is not as easy as some think to quickly incapacitate someone with a knife.

tellner
January 11, 2006, 03:17 PM
I concur. A cop friend of mine who happened to be a combat experienced VET once told me the same thing but I still think it is not as easy as some think to quickly incapacitate someone with a knife.

Or with a pistol, for that matter. Knives and pistols are what you use when you can't get at your real weapon.

LegendaryItaliano
January 12, 2006, 10:40 PM
Wow, there are some really interesting responses here. If I may I would like to offer my .02
First thing that I noticed right off is the intent of killing the BG. This is somewhat disturbing because it is talked about like it would be something easy to do, not so much physically but psychologically. Fact is I find it hard to believe the majority of those here would be so quick to take anotherís life without hesitation. This is because the majority of members here I assume not to be trained killers, which means there is a lack of proper training. So lets say you find yourself in the situation described and there is a surefire way to instantly kill the BG. Do you do it without hesitation? Not likely because you will be nervous and contemplative, knowing if you donít do it just right, the BG can turn and you may lose your life. That is difficult to come to terms with, especially in a tense situation.
The first thing that came to mind when I read the scenario was to immobilize not kill. It is a lot easier to take an action that doesnít involve taking a life. As others said, I would put him into an arm lock, but then use my knife to cut the tendons in the forearm thereby rendering his trigger finger useless. You accomplish the objective without taking a life and the BG looses his ability to pull a trigger. This kata is something relatively easy to learn, and the more you train with it the more confident you will be to use it.

tellner
January 13, 2006, 02:30 AM
First thing that I noticed right off is the intent of killing the BG. This is somewhat disturbing because it is talked about like it would be something easy to do, not so much physically but psychologically. Fact is I find it hard to believe the majority of those here would be so quick to take anotherís life without hesitation. This is because the majority of members here I assume not to be trained killers, which means there is a lack of proper training. So lets say you find yourself in the situation described and there is a surefire way to instantly kill the BG. Do you do it without hesitation? Not likely because you will be nervous and contemplative, knowing if you donít do it just right, the BG can turn and you may lose your life. That is difficult to come to terms with, especially in a tense situation.

Everyone who is interested in these issues should read Col. Grossman's On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316330116/qid=1137132346/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-0056102-3821761?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). Lots of sage wisdom and good research from one of the Army's top experts on the subject. One of his more interesting pieces of research was on marksmanship training in WWII and Vietnam and the effect that it appears to have had on the percentage of troops who actually fired their weapons. And on the psychological aftermath.

If you are well trained you will react with your training. If you are not, you will react according to a number of different things.

Thing is, if you carry the means of deadly force you need to prepare yourself for the unlikely (Baruch Hashem) chance that you will have to use it. If you haven't made The Decision and aren't as ready as you can be you should leave the tool at home. It's not going to do you much good as a deterrent or a stopper.

If you have flipped that switch it's a question of tactics and ethics. Odds are you'll act to the limits of your training and preparation. Most of the people here have done that. So their concerns are more with what is practical and the chances of their choices being effective.

The first thing that came to mind when I read the scenario was to immobilize not kill. It is a lot easier to take an action that doesnít involve taking a life. As others said, I would put him into an arm lock, but then use my knife to cut the tendons in the forearm thereby rendering his trigger finger useless. You accomplish the objective without taking a life and the BG looses his ability to pull a trigger. This kata is something relatively easy to learn, and the more you train with it the more confident you will be to use it.

You can be as merciful as you can afford to be. It is harder to contain and immobilize or hurt someone enough to be effective but not enough to risk the loss of life than it is to seriously jack him up. Maybe the Lone Ranger is good enough to shoot the guns out of the bad guys' hands with silver bullets. The rest of us don't have the slack to risk anything except the surer C.O.M. or "Aim for the belt buckle and work your way up". Sorry, my first firearms teacher was a pessimistic hillbilly who didn't believe in fighting fair :rolleyes: Likewise with the knife, making him lose blood pressure as quickly as possible or interrupting the central nervous system will probably stop him faster than first trying to grapple him and then trying for a non-lethal cut to a moving limb.

It's like my Silat teacher says. You can be as merciful as you are skilled. If you so outclass the guy that you can "fight with contempt", then you can afford to try not to injure him. The more advantages he has the less margin for error or compassion. I probably got enough skills in the first three or four years for what I am likely to come up against. One of the reasons I continue to train is to have the option of hurting someone less than catastrophically.

Again, if you're eager to kill you're a monster, and decent people should have nothing to do with you. If you're unwilling to kill should the need arise you have no business carrying a gun or defensive knife.

strambo
January 13, 2006, 02:37 AM
Entry behind the ear to the brain stem. It could be near instantaneous if targeted accurately, but probably not fast enough to prevent the possibility of firing because a knife doesn't destroy stuff as fast as say a sniper's .308 bullet will. In order to try this (or some of the other good "rapid incapacitation" techniques mentioned), you'd need a situation where there wasn't much to lose and where if he got a shot off it could be controlled.

If he shot the clerk in the chest and was about to shoot them (or someone else) again, game on. Come from behind, knock his gun arm up with your left arm and grab his chin with your left hand while thrusting behind the ear towards his brain stem with all you've got..a couple times, then sever the nerves and arteries going to the heart via the sternal notch for good measure. Ugly, messy and no guarantees, but hey, if you got nothin' to lose...:uhoh:

Disclaimer: I've certainly never done such a thing for real, just practiced a bit. I'd just plan on stabbin' targets until one of us ain't a threat no more. In the situation as described, I'd let the guy go with the $$$.

R.O.F
January 13, 2006, 03:02 AM
Is there any truth to the "crimson line"? I can't remember where I heard it, but if you shoot someone between the eyebrow and the upper lip, they won't have the capability of pulling the trigger. I imagine the same could be said for a knife travelling at a high rate of speed. I learned in college Psycology that the quickest way to kill someone is to hit them in the back of the head and destroy the Medula Oblongata. I'm sure a bullet to the eyesocket would reach in far enough to take care of this, but you'd have to get a bit creative with a knife.

pete f
January 13, 2006, 04:52 AM
i too was drawn to the idea of removing control of the weapon. I KNOW that a serious bone deep slice of the bicep prevents any concerted use of the forearm. I witnessed a machete strike to the forearm that caused long term paralysis of the hand, another incident of a skate to the inside of the arm just above the elbow left that person with very little function in the arm and hand.

would i want to bet my life on this, no but if it was my only chance, i would take it over watching a girl get popped.

innerpiece9
January 14, 2006, 10:06 PM
too many people carry weapons that dont understand their application...
many of these people dont even have a concept of unarmed combat..

In the concept of CNS shot placement:
The blade can sever one spot, close to the skin, that would incapacitate, Instantly:
The rear center base of the skull, where the spinal cord meets the skull.
(proper application of the blade is key, and should not be relied on if the extent of youre education of the weapon is Text...!!!)

To controll the opponents weapon first would be ideal.

wheelgunslinger
January 15, 2006, 03:16 PM
Again, if you're eager to kill you're a monster, and decent people should have nothing to do with you. If you're unwilling to kill should the need arise you have no business carrying a gun or defensive knife.

That is extremely eloquent, tellner.

I also think that this young man did the right thing by being passive.

The world has plenty of violence for anyone, should they want for it. I believe that most carry weapons to not be a willing participant, but rather as a means to extricate themselves from it. At least that's my rationale.

xd45gaper
January 16, 2006, 03:06 AM
if he had a Kurkuri (sp?) he could have chopped his arm off!!

tellner
January 16, 2006, 10:19 AM
That is extremely eloquent, tellner.

I also think that this young man did the right thing by being passive.

The world has plenty of violence for anyone, should they want for it. I believe that most carry weapons to not be a willing participant, but rather as a means to extricate themselves from it. At least that's my rationale.

I think he did, too. There was nothing to be gained and a lot to be lost by going after the robber. Nothing in that cash register was worth risking anyone's life over. And you are right about the right reason to carry weapons.

At some point it becomes appropriate to put aside natural repugnance at hurting people in order to defend innocent life. If one can do that deadly force becomes a regrettable means towards a vital end. If one can't, then it's probably better to sell the gun, knife or Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch and spend the money on something useful that won't have the added disadvantage of giving one a false sense of security.

It's only useful in extricating you from a bad situation if you're willing to use it.

Take the case at the Tacoma mall a couple months ago. The guy with the pistol who ended up in the hospital would not be paralyzed if it weren't for a gun he wasn't willing to fire. He relied on it scaring the bad guy by its mere presence. It didn't. He'd have been much better off running for cover instead of standing there yelling "Freeze!" at an armed criminal who was already shooting people. As if we needed another argument for better training :(

CRFORFREEDOM
January 16, 2006, 12:26 PM
LET'S IMAGINE FOR ARGUMENT THAT THE PERSON WAS ABLE TO KILL QUICKLY WITH A KNIFE: In any situation where one acts with deadly force, one must prove IMMINENT FEAR or EMINENT DANGER to avoid a murder or manslaughter wrap.

Under certain state laws, if you carry a knife that you can kill with, an eager prosecuting attorney may want to charge you with a "Carrying A Deadly Weapon" charge.
-AND/OR-
Before the attacker dies, he shoots the clerk. The clerk/CLERK FAMILY sues YOU because had you not acted, they may still be alive or uninjured!

Last but not least (or is it?), the poor mother or wife of the POOR VICTIM you killed could sue you for every thing and or every penny you have. After all, you killed "A poor somebody's child just trying to get money for food to eat."

What A world, what a world! :barf:

Jack The Ripper
July 4, 2007, 06:04 PM
Hey guys I'm new here so I'm sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place, but I saw this thread and I wanted to ask a question. I've been hunting for a couple of years now, but I've rarely used a knife to kill anything. In fact, I don't recall ever doing it. Since I live in Ireland, it's very hard to come by weapons, and all I have at the minute is a Remington 12 gauge shotgun and a .22 rifle. I use these to hunt pheasant and other animals. But that's not my question: If you were to sever the medulla oblongata, what would the blood loss be in comparison to if you severed the carotid or jugular veins? I was just curious, because I'm writing an essay for a college assignment, and it's a story similar to that guy's who started this thread. It's about a hunter being in a remote filling station when a robber comes in. He hides and waits for his chance, and then sticks his trusty Ka-Bar knife into his medulla. For accuracy and maybe a higher grade, I was wondering what the blood loss would be? Could you guys help me out. Again sorry if it's in the wrong place.

sonofodin
July 4, 2007, 10:51 PM
I have to agree with you. Don't count out the knife as a formidable opponent. If you should get the chance to come from behind, you have many options to use the blade to its maximum effectiveness. I have a meager red belt in Tae Kwon-Do but part of that was blade play. I am no expert at all, and I am NOT saying I am G.I. Joe. However, as I have a little training, I would like to drop my .02 cents in the box. Hooking up through the armpit to lock the arm and several quick stabs to the kidney would be effective, combined with a throat slice. Use the same lock, bring around and stab the heart or use the blade to make LONG lacerations. Keep in mind, you have to be pretty stout because you DO NOT WANT THE GUNMAN TO TURN AROUND. Stabs to the neck could be very good, but expect to put the gunman in a judo hold or some other sort of hold until he quits squirming. Personally, I carry a CS Ti-Lite. Its both extremely pointy and extremely sharp at about 4 inches. I think if it happened and I could do something, I would. I know my heart would be POUNDING in my chest and breathing would be hard, but I could do it. Also, remember to keep your arm away from the mouth. Lacerating the wrist could be extremely good but you should only attempt such a move if your confident your knife is sharp enough and that you could sweep the wrist with enough force to get the tendons. DO NOT STOP THERE. If you do get the tendons, go for the gun and make sure to palm strike it loose then put him down. At that point you do not have to KILL the perp, but you must neutralize him until you commandeer his piece. I like carrying a fixed blade with enough of a handle to use as a pommel. The only knife I have, legal for belt length, is a CRKT Companion. It's AUS 6, so its pretty sharp and it has an upswept blade with enough tip to compensate for my Ti-Lite. The pommel would be good for pressure points on the shoulder, hurting the shooting arm and making it hard to raise the perps gun. Don't forget, you can always plunge it in his eyes, but he might shoot wildly. Thats about it for now. I can go over 100 slightly different combat plans, but they all lead to 1 conclusion. Neutralize the threat in the fastest, deadliest way possible. I do not mean this as an insult WHATSOEVER, but if your friend has no formal hand to hand training, maybe it is best he did not attempt anything only to find out he needed said training.

Alphazulu6
July 4, 2007, 11:03 PM
Yeah a 6" blade is not going to make me feel comfortable to stop a BG from firing.. it might aid me in somehow not getting shot too many times but yeah probably not going to keep me from getting killed hehe.

hso
July 4, 2007, 11:59 PM
We've said it before in this thread and others, but I'll repeat it for everyone's "benefit", there are no instant kills. Not with a gun and not with a knife.

We've also said it before in this thread and others, a knife in the hands of anyone, but especially a well trained opponent, is every bit as deadly as a firearm.

glockman19
July 5, 2007, 01:15 AM
IMHO Your friend was very lucky and didi the right thing. Was he a good witness? was he able to give a good description to police? In some situations it's better just to cooperate and let ht eguy take and leave. One poster here awhile ago was at a storage facility and was jacked and while he had a gun the BG got the drop on him.

Better to be able to tell the story and live another day then be a hero and possibly get hurt or killed.

rtrwv
July 10, 2007, 12:00 AM
I carry concealed legally and carry a 3" folder (legal in my state) clipped to my pocket. I have trained with both extensively and intensively. Yet I am still able to come to this conclusion almost every time. If the opportunity presents itself and it usually does for me, it is better to run like hell to cover or get away than go for that magic one shot stop or stab to kill. Am I prepared to defend myself? Darn tootin' I am and can! Dad always said pick the fight you know you can win, the ones you can't......live to try another day. Just felt compelled to say
this, thanks!

s.w.a.t7
January 19, 2008, 06:54 PM
I think that with the proper training you could take the BG down. As far as the instant kill goes I don't know.

sniper5
January 20, 2008, 12:25 AM
Question for uxb and/or hso:

Do they still call that field of study "sentry elimination or neutralization"?

Had some friends out of 'nam in the early 70's teach it just about as you describe.

inkhead
January 20, 2008, 01:05 AM
I was tempted not to say anything, but....

In most cases your friend would better off grabbing the weapon from said attacker vs. using the knife.

Even if you are well trained it's very rare to stab someone and have them go into instant shock. When you kill someone they generally go into shock before they bleed out or die, which is to your advantage.

In a combat situation with extra adrenaline, even if you shoved 3 inches of your blade into my neck, most attackers would still be a threat for up to a couple of minutes. Your talking about upsetting a person with a firearm that they can't properly control, which means desperate shooting.

You can't make someone bleed out to death in seconds, even when you detach the head from the body most doctors believe the mind survives for a small period. Obviously something like this WILL stop your attacker, but isn't going to happen unless your knife is a 150lbs and you swing it at 80mph.

Personally? I'd be really angry and my brain would have to control my emotions while being robbed as to not DO something stupid that gets people killed. But in some situations especially if you hesitate to ask... you probably shouldn't assume your knife is going to stop anything.

People keep on after surprising horrible disgusting wounds. Inside of the leg near the crotch are two major spots you can slice and bleed out quicker, but that wouldn't stop someone from firing off 20 rounds first.

usmccpl
January 20, 2008, 01:20 AM
It takes 8 seconds to go unconscious when you shut off blood flow to the brain. I myself can empty my P95 in 5 seconds. Seems to me the gunman could kill several before he died of a knife wound.

wheelgunslinger
January 20, 2008, 09:07 AM
The only thing I'd like to add is that a certain American fellow who escaped from numerous German prisons and lockups in WW2 related that he did so by cutting the guard's throats from behind. Sneaking up and reaching around to strike.

He stated that the guards, without fail, would always reach up and grasp their sliced neck and not try to fight or turn and shoot.
He killed numerous guards this way to escape from a great number of facilities. He became somewhat of a legend with German prison personnel and admins.

While I am inclined to believe that it is not possible to have an instant kill with a knife, I believe that combining behavioral response with physical damage like this is as close as you may come.

But, I'm not a ninja, knife expert, or a former SF tough guy. I'm just a high road poster relating something. So, take it for what it's worth.

Joe Demko
January 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
The only thing I'd like to add is that a certain American fellow who escaped from numerous German prisons and lockups in WW2 related that he did so by cutting the guard's throats from behind

Who are you talking about?

JShirley
January 20, 2008, 02:44 PM
there are no instant kills

...and by this, I am understanding you to mean that convulsive action could still cause your opponent to squeeze a trigger and kill you or a bystander, even if already dead.

Wheelgun, I am a history graduate student, and U.S. Mil History is one of my main areas of focus. What was the name of this serviceman?

John

Browning
January 31, 2008, 10:12 PM
The head wounds below may or may not be fatal (some people have actually survived having a knife or pointed object impaled through their skull and into their brain), but with the exception of superhuman feats of rage and being able to ignore severe pain (which although they do happen, they're kind of rare) I imagine that most people would seek trying to harm you after you inflicted such a wound on them.

At the very least it would give you a chance to run.

http://www.militarytimes.com/static/multimedia/video/thumbnails/powers.jpg

http://www.daytonaneurosurgery.com/head-trauma_files/174Knife.jpg

This on the other hand would certainly kill the person in question, but they may keep fighting for a few minutes until they bled out (*Graphic picture of a murder victim with his throat cut/if you don't want to see that then don't click on the picture and look at it*).

http://www.pathguy.com/~tdemark/0050.jpg

Unless there's a traumatic injury to the brain or the spine you can't really stop a person instantly.

They'll either keep fighting because you haven't hit anything vital (fight), they'll quit fighting on their own because they're afraid of the potential damage they may sustain as a result (submit), they'll run away (flight) or they'll bleed out on you (unconciousness or death). Unless you stab them in the brain or spine and cause massive damage, severe bleeding and interupt the nerve signals through the brain or spinal cord they're not going to stop because of the (hypothetical) injury until a few minutes later (when and if they bleed out).

mgregg85
January 31, 2008, 10:27 PM
After seeing(on tv) that guy who survived having a 7" combat/survival knife stabbed all the way into his head, I wouldn't count on an instant kill with a knife unless you are highly, highly trained.

It seems that the magical, "instant kills" with knives or firearms(body shots, not head), only happen in the movies.

Wolfman_556
January 31, 2008, 11:18 PM
if he had a Kurkuri (sp?) he could have chopped his arm off!!

Very possible. I've been a khukuri fan and user for over 20 years.

But I would not advise using one in a combat application unless you have used one so extensively that it responds fluidly like an extension of your body.

I've tested them on japanese tamegeshiri targets and on animal carcasses (helping neighbors butcher cattle and hogs and on deer). If you know very well how to handle one quickly and how to use it properly, the khukuri is a brutal and deadly weapon.

Also if you have a proficiency with knives in combat, you should be aware the khukuri is totally different from any knife you've used. It's more like a short sword. Those with a Filipino MA background and familiar with using a barong would probably catch on quickly though.

Instant kill? Maybe. Maybe not. It would seriously mess someone up though.

Hand to hand combat has a lot of variables and involves a lot of chaos tangents. Throw in a gun to this mix and anything could happen.

I can not recommend using a knife in such a situation unless you have no other option. Knife fighting is nasty messy business and it's not fun.

Your friend had a choice. He played it cool and got through the situation.

He made the right decision.

wheelgunslinger
February 1, 2008, 08:31 AM
Joe and John,
I've been trying to remember the guy's name. There was a book written about him and he was actually one of my Dad's high school teachers in his Senior year.
I'll ask my Dad next time I see him. I had a copy of the book, but I think I gave it to some history buff friend of mine to read and he never returned it.

hso
February 1, 2008, 11:35 AM
Let me reiterate -

The human critter is both amazingly fragile and durable at various times so that instant kills with any hand held weapon are primarily the stuff of movies (decapitation excluded).

Instant kills with a knife are nearly impossible.
Instant kills with a knife are nearly impossible.
Instant kills with a knife are nearly impossible.


While they do occur from time to time, don't bet the farm on it in a fight.

We will now return you to your previously scheduled discussion.

coyotehitman
February 3, 2008, 01:05 AM
A blade into the medula oblongata (sp) should cease all motor function and make for a bad day.

gallo
February 3, 2008, 03:07 AM
In a bull fight when the matador has done a poor job lunging the sword not through the heart of the bull, but fatally wounding him, the animal is mercifully put down by a "descabelle," a short thrust to the back of the neck with a small blade.

p35
February 4, 2008, 05:12 PM
Tellner-

Kosher hog slaughter? How do you do that?

woodybrighton
February 5, 2008, 07:07 AM
Once got talking two an old ww2 SAS bloke he reckoned killing sentry's with knives was always going to be messy and not very quiet.
grenades and tommy guns were the best way lots of noise bags of aggression or just rock up in a jeep shoot everything that moves:D
did the poppy day collection
he carried a p38 taken off a good jerry i.e a dead one very very scary bloke.

CWL
February 5, 2008, 02:46 PM
I had a lengthy conversation with Jeff Gonzalez about exactly this subject and here is his paraphrased response:

The SEAL Teams once spent a week trying to sneak up on each other (at any time or opportunity) to see if it was really possible to get up to someone and dispatch them with a knife. In the end, they decided that a surpressed weapon + head shot was the only guaranteed method.

JShirley
February 5, 2008, 03:13 PM
On that note, this thread is done.

I have effected a few instant kills on deer with gun and knife. With knife, the deer was already down, and not very big. I'd hate to try taking on a large aggressor with a concealable knife if I had any other good options.

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