HANDLOADING 25ACP


PDA






DATRIKER
December 24, 2005, 01:33 AM
i'm looking for someone in the milwaukee area to handload some new unprimed 25acp brass for me.

If you enjoyed reading about "HANDLOADING 25ACP" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Grumulkin
December 24, 2005, 03:54 AM
I suspect that if you want any 25 ACP cartridges handloaded you'll have to do it yourself. First of all, cartridges of that size are so cheap it's hardly worth the bother to handload them and secondly with such a small cartridge, precision in measuring the tiny powder charges is critical.

Kurac
December 24, 2005, 04:19 AM
I might be better off just springing for some factory ammo. Most people that have .25 ACP pistols don't put a lot of rounds through them since there is no point, such being the case, there are not a lot of people loading for them.

Reed1911
December 25, 2005, 10:03 AM
No Point?! I have a little Tanfoglio in .25 and love it! I use it all the time (along with a .32 Auto) to plink with while waiting on rifles or pistols to cool down. To me it's more fun than the .22 LR; but it's more expensive too.

R.W.Dale
December 25, 2005, 10:12 AM
NO POINT????? So I guess that there is no point in loading for .45acp since 45 is almost the same price per 50 than 25acp, just cause it's smaller doesn't mean it's cheaper. Heck .380 costs twice what 9mm does for comercial loads.

jerkface11
December 25, 2005, 10:16 AM
.25 would be fun if they made it in bigger guns. Maybe something like a marlin model 60.

armoredman
December 25, 2005, 10:22 AM
I knew a guy on another board who loaded .25. It is not a cheap factory load. I think he used 1 gr of his fave powder, disremember which.
Get some fat rubber tipped tweezers/forceps - you might need them!

snuffy
December 25, 2005, 11:21 AM
I did it at one time, loaded 25 acp that is. I still have the dies, but not the pistol. It was a little Bauer stainless, quite accurate and functional.

It's a real PITA, tweezers and the problem of getting an accurate powder throw at 1.5 grains of bullseye. I even went so far as getting a mold from lyman to make 50 grain lead bullets! Another problem is finding the brass on the ground where there's a lot of empty .22 brass! You go bugeyed looking for it. Remington sold the fmj bullets for a while, I still have some of them. And, no I won't load them for you! I was very much younger when I was fool enough to do it for myself!:cool: :banghead:

Clark
December 25, 2005, 12:09 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I can overload 25acp with 3.2 gr Bullseye and get it to be loud, but I can't get it to kick hard.

I have two 25acp pistols and handloading for them is different:
1) Ruby, cheap POS is 80 years old and still works, firing pin hole is too big and the primer will pierce with 134% extra Bullseye. POS gun won't detonate a magnum primer:(
2) Colt 1908, great gun, 146% extra Bullseye is all that will fit, and no problems

I think I have another 25acp Colt that some rich old fossil sold becuase it jammed on him. A little cleaning, oil, and hot loads fixed that.



Some company made too many FMJ .251 bullets, as every now and then the are on sale $10/1000.
They cannot make them that cheap, so it must have been a major blunder.

The Bushmaster
December 25, 2005, 12:43 PM
I have a .25ACP...I load Remington HPs in it and put it in the gun safe as a last chance gun. reload for it?? Are you nuts?

Yup...That's what I want to do. Load over twice the powder (3.2 grains of Bullseye) that is recomemded by the Lyman #48 (1.4 grains of Bullseye for a 50 grain bullet). I went back a few years and checked a very old (around 1982) load manual and even they recommended no more then 1.3 grains of Bullseye for a 50 grain bullet. I doubt that a lot of tiny .25 ACPs would take too kindly to a powder charge (3.2) that big...:scrutiny:

The load data stated above are maximum loads according to Lyman #48 load manual and Metallic Cartridge Reloading manual of 1982...The 3.2 grains of Bullseye would be exceedingly dangerous. Load with caution and stand behind a tree or a wall and use a string to pull the trigger from a distance...:uhoh:

Merry Christmas to you and yours...:)

R.W.Dale
December 25, 2005, 01:24 PM
WARNING: USE OF ANY OF CLARK'S LOAD DATA IS HIGHLY FOOLISH AND CAN RESULT IN BECOMING AN EVOLUTIONARY DEAD END!

The Bushmaster
December 25, 2005, 01:46 PM
I guess that about says it all...:D

(By CW McCall)

Clark
December 25, 2005, 09:40 PM
1) Think of it is as a clash of percieved risk vs calculated risk.

It happens all the time in engineering.


2) Or think of it as a clash between conventional wisdom and intuition.

It happens all the time in engineering.


3) Or think of it as a clash of conventional wisdom and test data.

It happens all the time in engineering.


4) Or think of it as a clash between the "Do it per proceedures" types and the "Whatever it takes to get it done" types

It happens all the time in engineering.




What does it all mean?
It happens all the time because of human nature.

The Bushmaster
December 26, 2005, 01:13 PM
50 years of Swinging wrenches as a Marine and industrial Diesel Master Mechanic. 25 years fixing "engineers" designs.:banghead: Or 25 years stuck with "engineers designs that do not work and having to redesign them so that they do work.:banghead:

I will go with Krochus......:)

Who's the Moderator here????:mad:

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2005, 04:22 PM
1) Think of it is as a clash of percieved risk vs calculated risk.

It happens all the time in engineering.


2) Or think of it as a clash between conventional wisdom and intuition.

It happens all the time in engineering.


3) Or think of it as a clash of conventional wisdom and test data.

It happens all the time in engineering.


4) Or think of it as a clash between the "Do it per proceedures" types and the "Whatever it takes to get it done" types

It happens all the time in engineering.




What does it all mean?
It happens all the time because of human nature.


Clark, From what I've been able to gather you are some sort of electrical engineer. So enlighten us how does this qualify you to be an expert on internal ballistics? Short answer it does'nt, You know the fact that your father (who is a firearms degsiner) would dis own you if everybody found out that you was his son should tip you off to the fact that your load data is insane, that and the fact that youve been banned from how many forums now? 8 I believe.
But yet you fail to get it in a way I almost feel sorry for you.

PS. Do you even own a chronograph?

Mannlicher
December 26, 2005, 05:05 PM
we are whining for a moderator now? come on.

The Bushmaster
December 26, 2005, 05:37 PM
Mannlicher...With so many young and new handloaders that frequent this site I fear that one of them, not having read all the posts on this and similar subjects, might figure that if he can load that high and get away with it, they can too. That, to me, is bad press for a very safe and sane hobby...It has been mentioned on this site and others that I frequent that some are afraid to reload for fear of blowing themselves or a gun up. As you well know, if you read and follow the manuals, use good common sense, practice good safety guide lines, not allow any distractions and use quality components. This is a very safe hobby and should not be corrupted by outlandishly bad information no matter what warnings are posted with the load information...

I work very hard to promote safe conduct in this and other hobbies that I participate in (Noted in my profile) none of which are stamp collecting. You just don't deliberately scare a horse just before you saddle him. Horseshoe shaped prints on your body just are not in style...:D

trueblue1776
December 26, 2005, 06:04 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I can overload 25acp with 3.2 gr Bullseye and get it to be loud, but I can't get it to kick hard.

I have two 25acp pistols and handloading for them is different:
1) Ruby, cheap POS is 80 years old and still works, firing pin hole is too big and the primer will pierce with 134% extra Bullseye. POS gun won't detonate a magnum primer:(
2) Colt 1908, great gun, 146% extra Bullseye is all that will fit, and no problems

I think I have another 25acp Colt that some rich old fossil sold becuase it jammed on him. A little cleaning, oil, and hot loads fixed that.



Some company made too many FMJ .251 bullets, as every now and then the are on sale $10/1000.
They cannot make them that cheap, so it must have been a major blunder.

I'm glad there are a few badasses around here. This is a gun forum not a knitting party. :neener:

The Bushmaster
December 26, 2005, 06:13 PM
Hummmp...Yes you are...:D (noting right to Opinion)

444
December 26, 2005, 07:06 PM
Say what you want, but I have been reading Clark's posts for years and have come to value his opinion.
Clark explores a facet of handloading that not many dabble in. I appreciate his input and enjoy his posts.

Clark
December 26, 2005, 07:16 PM
I'm glad there are a few badasses around here. This is a gun forum not a knitting party. :neener:

That cracked me up.

The injuries I have recieved are terrible from:
1) car wrecks
2) motor cycle wrecks
3) pole vaulting
4) mountain climbing
5) tree topping
6) roofing
7) clearing land with a machette
8) bar tending
9) mountain bikes
10) mountain climbing
11) foot ball
12) just getting knife out of a sheath
13) hitting a nail with a hammer
14) sking
15) basketball

I have never felt any pain from shooting my hot loads.

Yet 99% of the warnings I have recieved in my life have been over handloading.

This says something about percieved risk vs calculated risk and human nature.

I really wish I had some more warnings about topping trees and motorcycles.

The Bushmaster
December 26, 2005, 07:23 PM
Forgot horses.....:D

Jbar4Ranch
December 26, 2005, 10:22 PM
I use 1.0 grain of W231. A pound goes a loooooong ways!

R.W.Dale
December 26, 2005, 10:28 PM
That would yeild 7000 rounds per pound of powder, That could take awhile.

Jbar4Ranch
December 27, 2005, 12:01 AM
Yep, ya'd wear out yer quarter incher before the can was empty!

RyanM
December 27, 2005, 01:50 AM
I think Clark's data is pretty useful in determining what the real danger area is when reloading. We all hear all these horror stories about guns blowing up, and then the person that blew up the gun always claims that it must have been due to a small error. Then Clark goes and does something insane, like putting .357 magnum overcharge loads through a .38, and proves that a small error usually won't blow you up, despite the horror stories.

Looking at all the crazy overloads Clark and others have done, it looks like in many cases, not even a double charge is sufficient to blow a gun up. With lots of powders and calibers, it's physically impossible to jam enough powder into the case to cause a catastrophic failure.

The main reasons to stick to published load data is not to keep from blowing yourself up, which usually requires an insane overload, but to keep your gun from battering itself to death, keep the bore from getting prematurely eroded, and keep your hands from getting bruised. There are some exceptions, like Hodgdon Universal and Winchester Super Field, but you can usually find info about what powders genuinely are unpredictable.

If anything, Clark's data is useful because it establishes how safe or unsafe a powder is in a certain cartridge. You can look at Clark's antics and go "oh, Bullseye looks like a very safe powder to reload .25 ACP with, because it's physically impossible to blow up a quality, all-steel gun with it, even if I somehow accidentally put in such an insane amount of powder that it requires double compression to get it all in there, and resizing the case again after the bullet is seated to make it chamber in my gun" or "gee, the Colt 1908 Pocket Hammerless .380 is a pretty good gun to reload for. Even if I accidentally use a .357 magnum overload in it, it won't blow into pieces."

jjk308
December 27, 2005, 04:48 PM
I think Clark's data is pretty useful in determining what the real danger area is when reloading. We all hear all these horror stories about guns blowing up, and then the person that blew up the gun always claims that it must have been due to a small error. Then Clark goes and does something insane, like putting .357 magnum overcharge loads through a .38, and proves that a small error usually won't blow you up, despite the horror stories.

"

Clark isn't discovering anything new and exciting, he's just eating up the designed margin of safety, and has been very lucky so far. One of these days he's going to try it in a firearm that has something wrong with it and he'll discover the true meaning of factor of safety. I do however agree that most of those likely weren't "small errors", but big whopping ones like a double stroke with Bullseye or Unique. Somehow these blowups never happen with factory ammo, unless the barrel is obstructed.

http://www.mywiseowl.com/articles/Factor_of_safety

Factor of safety (FoS), also known as Safety Factor, is a multiplier applied to the calculated maximum load (force, torque, bending moment or a combination) to which a component or assembly will be subjected. Thus, by effectively "overengineering" the design by strengthening components or including redundant systems, a Factor of Safety accounts for imperfections in materials, flaws in assembly, material degradation, and uncertainty in load estimates. An alternative way to use the safety factor is to derate the strength of the material to get a "design" strength.

Sdesign = Syield / FoS
Sdesign = Sproof / FoS
An appropriate factor of safety is chosen based on several considerations. Prime considerations are the accuracy of load and wear estimates, the consequences of failure, and the cost of overengineering the component to achieve that factor of safety. For example, components whose failure could result in substantial financial loss, serious injury or death usually use a safety factor of four or higher (often ten)*. Non-critical components generally have a safety factor of two. An interesting exception is in the field of Aerospace engineering, where safety factors are kept low (about 1.15 - 1.25)** because the costs associated with structural weight are so high. This low safety factor is why aerospace parts and materials are subject to more stringent testing and quality control.

A Factor of safety of 1 implies no safety at all. Hence some engineers prefer to use a related term, Margin of Safety (MoS) to describe the design parameters. The relation between MoS and FoS is MoS = FoS - 1.

Example
In construction engineering the tensional stress ů is defined as ů = F / A where F is the force acting on the element and A is the cross sectional area. From laboratory testing it is known what the actual failure tensile stress ůmax of materials is. To find the minimum safe cross section of an element, the force acting on the element is multiplied with the safety factor „, (its magnitude depending on building codes and regulations). The minimum cross section is then found using Amin = F ∑ „ / ůmax

*A loaded locked firearm is a very simple mechanism, nearly foolproof and very durable, so a safety factor of no more than 3 is usually considered acceptable in spite of the risk of "serious injury or death".

**1.5 to yield load for aircraft, plus whatever the structural designer can cram in to avoid failure, after he fights off the weights engineer (me) who wants to lighten it.

David4516
January 17, 2006, 03:57 AM
Lets clear something up here: .25 ACP factory ammo is NOT CHEAP.

I just paid $18 for a box of 50gr FMJs. I think they were Remingtons.

Alot of .25 auto ammo only comes in boxes of 20, not the standard 50. But looking at the price tag you'd think you should get 50 rounds...

I handload for .25 ACP, sometimes. It is a difficult round to load for, so I don't do it often. As a result my Bereatta 950 "Jetfire" has put as many factory rounds downrange as it has my handloads.

Speaking of handloads, I'll share what I've learned about loading for the .25 First off, I have to agree with other posters that Bullseye is a good powder.

Secondly, it's better to load with 35 gr bullets (not the 50s) because you can use a larger powder charge. The smallest charge of Bullseye that my measure will meter correctly every time is 1.7gr, thats a good load for 35gr JHPs, but a little "hot" for 50gr FMJs (or at least thats what the loading manuals tell me). If I want to load those 50gr bullets, I have to whip out the powder trickler and scale and weigh each charge individually. If I load the 35gr bullets, I can "mass produce".

Thirdly, and I think somebody already mentioned this, but when you go to collect your brass it's hard to pick out the .25s from all the .22s laying on the ground. It's also hard find brass to buy for .25 ACP, all my brass comes from fired factory rounds. So if you're at the range and you see alot of .25's on the ground/floor, pick them up. Even you don't load for .25 ACP now, you might in the future, and if you do you'll be glad you kept all that brass. I used to throw away my .25 brass, and now I really regret it...

If you enjoyed reading about "HANDLOADING 25ACP" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!