[cosmos7]

Working up to my first shotgun purchase, and in my quest for rock-solid reliability, have heard Benelli semiautos to be highly recommended among autos. After much reading and research I still have a couple questions:

1) What's the difference between regular M1/M3/M4 and the Super 90 variety? I'm guessing reinforced chamber or something similar, but can't find a definitive answer. Should I aim to buy a Super 90 variant?

2) How is recoil as compared to pumps? I've seen a couple negative comments regarding the kick on a Benelli - I've always assumed recoil was something along the lines of: pump (Rem 870) > inertia (M1/M3) > gas (M4/Rem 1100).

3) Still trying to decide which Benelli to get. M3 to pump if needed? Don't worry about it and get an M1? Or spend the bucks for soft recoil with the M4?

Thanks for the input.:)

[Skunkabilly]

>> 1) What's the difference between regular M1/M3/M4 and the Super 90 variety? I'm guessing reinforced chamber or something similar, but can't find a definitive answer. Should I aim to buy a Super 90 variant?

M1 is the standard semi-auto.

The M3 has a rocker where you can go to pump to use for less-lethal. The pump is heavy and rough since you're fighting that spring and whatnot back there, and it's not optimized for pump. Also, there is no Sure-Fire fore-end for the M3.

The M4 is gas operated, and has an optic goodie rail. Right now the models have pinned stocks and fake mag extensions for the M4 Super 90-gery look. As per federal law, they are neutered from the front and rear end.

>> How is recoil as compared to pumps? I've seen a couple negative comments regarding the kick on a Benelli - I've always assumed recoil was something along the lines of: pump (Rem 870) > inertia (M1/M3) > gas (M4/Rem 1100).

Benellis AFAIK have aluminum receivers and 870s, steel, so they're lighter = more kick I've been told. I haven't shot enough 870s to notice a difference because of my limited experience. My thumbs are usually bloody from loading the thing and my arms burning from holding it at low ready for hours to notice :D

>> 3) Still trying to decide which Benelli to get. M3 to pump if needed? Don't worry about it and get an M1? Or spend the bucks for soft recoil with the M4?

Not sure why you'd need pump other than novelty. I have an M1 right now and I'm questioning its reliability with light loads and a taclight. I may go the 870 route after some testing. So far it shoots nice tight patterns and has NEVER choked when I wasn't messing around w/ taclights, sidesaddles, etc. I never shot an M4, wo can't comment on it.

[cosmos7]

Thanks for the reply.:) I'm aware of the differences between the Benelli models; my question was to the difference between a Super 90, and a non-Super 90 version of the same gun. At first I thought they were all the same, but I seen the boxes the guns come in - some are labeled S90, while others aren't.

I've also read about the problems with Benelli's and light loads, which sort of prompted my question regarding recoil. Seeing as the M4 is gas, and not inertia, I wonder if it has the same problems, and whether it is as durable as its inertia counterparts?

[Skunkabilly]

IIRC, there is the M1 Super 90 for defense against things with arms, and the M1 Field which is for blowing things with wings out of the sky.

Super 90 is the 'tactical' semi-auto, there is no M3 or M4 non-Super 90, though there is a 26" vent rib barrel for the M3.

The M1 also has a 'Practical' (9 or 10 shot IPSC thing with big buttons and an optic rail and speedloader thingy) and the 'Entry' which is a 14" jobbie.

The Super Black Eagle (used to have one) is the M1 Field on steroids, it takes 3.5" shells for big 6-foot yellow birds.

I haven't heard much comment on the M4 and attaching things. As there is no Sure-Fire avail for the M4, no way to tell just yet. Kind of a catch-22 when considering one, IMO.

[Dave McCracken]

Skunk,"My thumbs are usually bloody from loading the thing and my arms burning".....

I've stuffed maybe 50K rounds into 870s over the decades, and lost no blood.Back when I instructed others,I can't recall many if any leaking hemoglobin on blued steel.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

The Benellis cost way more than 870s do.

They provide little recoil reduction over a pump, if any.

They are ammo sensitive.

They go into temper tantrums when the wrong accessories are added in combination, and may be illegal under those iddywa "Assault Weapons" regs that make as much sense as a screen door on a space station.

Using common, easily understood words, could you explain to me why sonething like this is superior to a inexpensive, reliable as a crowbar,works ALL the time pump gun?

Thanks....

[harrydog]

All M1's are Super 90's.
They come in different flavors - Field, Practical, Tactical, and Entry.
All of those are basically the same gun but with different stocks and barrel configurations. It's possible to turn a Field into a Tactical or a Tactical into a Field by changing out a few parts. I've got 26" and 18-1/2" barrels and pistol grip and regular stocks for mine and it sees use as both a hunting gun and a defense gun.
I've never had a problem with light loads in my M1, but I don't have a bunch of junk attached to it either. If you use something like the Federal reduced recoil loads, you should have no problem.
Side saddles seem to be the main culprit when people have functioning problems, at least that's what I've heard.
In my opinion, which admittedly is no better than anyone else's opinion, the 870 is the way to go if you want a pump and the Benelli is the way to go if you want a semi-auto. If you wanted a semi-auto strictly for hunting, the Beretta would be a good choice also. The Benelli is superior to the Beretta in that it can get wet and dirty and still function.

[HSMITH]

Shoot a Benelli before popping a grand plus on it. Many like them but as many or more hate them after some exposure to them. They are no more reliable than the Winchester SuperX2, and less reliable than typical pump guns. Recoil is just like a pump gun unless M4. Lock time can be measured on a sun dial. It cannot be shot from the hip reliably even when dead clean and oiled. It cannot be fired one handed.

Over $1000 for a $300 shotgun IMO. I am gonna get flamed for my opinion but I really don't care. I shoot well over 15K shotgun shells a year average, and bird hunt a minimum of 45 days a year. I have been there and done that, I have seen what works and what doesn't. Very VERY few guys that shoot seriously keep the Benelli's, if they do it is the 3.5" guns for hunting it seems.

Personally you could not give me one unless it was with the understanding that I was going to trade it off.....

[sm]

Agree with Dave and HSMITH

Though I don't currently don't put 10-15K rds downrange as I once did, my experience reflects theirs.

Pump: 870's work- period. 1300's fit me better granted, but moleskin gets the 870 to fit when I borrow one. I use one made in mid 50's often.

Semi: Has to be a SX2. I'm biased, see I used a 1974 SX1 for 10 -20K rds for years-for many years, still use, still works. Not as cool, name recognized,and mine has" bit of character".

Actually have played games with the SX1 with a bbl a friend has more suitable than my 28"...though I have used 28".

Last time I did play a game I used a stock 1100, no mag ext, with a 22" bbl, never choked, some more expensive guns did. I prefer the 1100 over the 1187 btw. I just showed up to watch with no gun...thrust into arena...

$1K minus a $350 used gun = $ for fine tuning gun fit, ammo, and practice, Mec reloader...

IMO, I too would trade a Benelli...get a SX2 , or a couple of 870's, depending on what I wanted to do with it

[jthuang]

I've stuffed maybe 50K rounds into 870s over the decades, and lost no blood.Back when I instructed others,I can't recall many if any leaking hemoglobin on blued steel.

This is because of a peculiarity in the Benelli shell lifter. The shell lifter has a small slot cut into the end facing the mag tube. For persons with smaller thumbs, your thumb can get jammed between the slot and the mag tube.

By contrast, the Remington 870 and Mossberg 5xx shell lifters are solid at that end of the lifter. No "Benelli thumb".

While I load my first round through the ejection port, subsequent rounds go into the mag tube and are susceptible to Benelli thumb. My solution has been to prop up the shell lifter with my thumb where it meets my hand while loading.

Justin

[jthuang]

Not sure why you'd need pump other than novelty

Only good reason I've seen is if you need to use specialty rounds with the pump and then switch to auto. For example, first round is a breaching (powdered lead) round, while the rest are 00 buck. The breaching round may not have enough oomph to cycle the action. Use the pump for the first round and then go to auto once you're through the door.

The same applies if you have to use CS/CN/OC cartridges or non-lethal (beanbag, stinger, etc.) shells.

Justin

[Skunkabilly]

Using common, easily understood words, could you explain to me why sonething like this is superior to a inexpensive, reliable as a crowbar,works ALL the time pump gun?

Dave, I'm not sure if your question was directed at me, but if it is, I didn't say anything about why it was superior. I was just answering his questions: the difference between the Super 90s, recoil, and which Benelli to get. I just didn't want to give him a 'get a Glock' type of answer when he had specific questions :)

He didn't ask Benelli vs 870. As for me, my dealer priced out an 870 Police Magnum for me and is waiting for my green light, and will probably sell my M1S90 in the future. I'm wondering where in this thread I said the Benelli was superior?

[cosmos7]

Super 90 is the 'tactical' semi-auto, there is no M3 or M4 non-Super 90, though there is a 26" vent rib barrel for the M3.
How do you explain these two pictures then?

http://images.tokomak.net/m3s90box.jpg
http://images.tokomak.net/m3box.jpg

[Skunkabilly]

Looks like one doesn't have ghost ring sights? Benellis come with either rifle sights (post and notch, at either end of the barrel) or a ghost ring, the rear aperture being at the end of the receiver.

Both on box look to have the pistol grip, and you can't get the +2 extension in California even if it's a pre-ban unless you registered it before Y2K

[TrapperReady]

Here's my experience. I own two Benellis, a Montefeltro (basically an M1 Field with wood stock and different rib) and an M1 Field. They have both proven to be absolutely reliable through thousands of shells each. I clean them every time after they've been shot, and both appear essentially brand new.

I've used them for hunting (upland, no waterfowling yet) and lots of clay games. I've never had a misfeed or FTF, despite using light target loads (1 1/8 oz , 2 3/4 dram) for much of the shooting.

Despite what HSMITH states, the recoil is NOT the same as a pump. In fact, it is little different from many gas-operated guns (1100s, 1187s) I have shot. My 110lb wife shoots both Benellis and thinks nothing of the recoil. IMO, my pumps hit back a lot harder.

The only time I have seen a Benelli not operate was with a Super Black Eagle, using the same light target loads I have mentioned. Once in a while, it would fail to cycle the action. However, looking at Benelli's web-site, those loads fall below the minimum recommendation for that particular gun. A slightly hotter shell fixed the problem.

I can't speak to their use for HD, but for clay busting and for hunting, I think they are very good choices.

[hksw]

I think cosmos is misreading "...there is no M3 or M4 non-Super 90,...".

What that statement by Skunk is saying is that all M3s and M4s are S90s.


I have had problems using light target loads through my rifle sighted M3 during a plate shoot. The solution was to just flip the switch over to pump.

IMO, the M3 in pump mode is the easiest and lightest pump action I've ever shot (as compared to Moss 500 & 590s, Rem 870s, and Ben NOVA).

[cosmos7]

What that statement by Skunk is saying is that all M3s and M4s are S90s.
That's exactly what I was trying to find out. If they're all Super 90's, great! Still a little confused why some boxes would be labeled as such, and not others...

[Dave McCracken]

I Apologize Skunk, I misread your post and thought you were talking about the 870 leaving you bloody and tired.

Also, the tone of some of your posts seems to indicate a preference for the Benellis. I find that a little hard to understand. Thanks for the enlightment.

Also,get the 870, your unborn great grandchildren will thank you for it...

[cosmos7]

I must admit I am still considering an 870. I've had my eye on a Marine Magnum here at my local dealer. I just didn't mention it as I knew it would spawn the inevitable pump vs semi discussion. Personally I haven't yet made up my mind which route to go yet, as each have advantages. A pump being dead simple and more affordable, but a semi would seem to allow faster followup shots.

In any event, if anyone else has testimonials regarding the recoil of a Benelli in comparison to a pump, I would certainly welcome them.

[Skunkabilly]

I was sold on the Benelli until I watched my 870 wielding homie work that thing. As the muzzle rises he works the pump and by it's back down and on target it's good to go. He shoots that thing faster than I shoot my Benelli.

[hksw]

That's exactly what I was trying to find out. If they're all Super 90's, great! Still a little confused why some boxes would be labeled as such, and not others...

Around 1999 or 2000 or 2001 some time, I was posting in the Shotgun section on TFL replying to a question concerning Benelli. To research my reply, I looked through a Benelli catalog (which I usually get whenever the new ones come out at my regular gun shop). I had noticed that when leafing through the catalog, there was no mention at all to 'Super 90'. To confirm what I was looking for I looked at the catalog for the previous year. Sure enough, 'Super 90' was used extensively. It would seem to me that Benelli dropped the 'Super 90' monicker for at least the year of that one catalog. I had mentioned this on my TFL reply and proceeded to call the action 'Montefeltro', which I'm sure was incorrect but it was just yet another one of my errors so no big deal.

[harrydog]

Quote:
"I was sold on the Benelli until I watched my 870 wielding homie work that thing. As the muzzle rises he works the pump and by it's back down and on target it's good to go. He shoots that thing faster than I shoot my Benelli."



But that doesn't mean YOU will shoot an 870 that fast. Are you thinking that you'll be faster with the 870? I doubt it.

[CWL]

I own both shotguns.

Fast doesn't mean anything compared to being able to hit the target.

That comes from practice, not from the gun.

[jthuang]

This thread is rapidly devolving into a pump vs auto thread. Comparing a Benelli M1 to a Remington 870 doesn't make any sense. You wanna draw a meaningful comparison, compare a Benelli M1 to a Remington 1100, 11-87 or Mossy 9200.

Justin

[HSMITH]

The original poster asked for comparisons of recoil.

The recoil of the Benelli action is sharp, much more like a pump or O/U than a gas operated auto. The gas auto gives more of a push, the Benelli a "whack". I have shot a Benelli extensively, and I don't miss it. I have an 1100 and a SuperX2 and a Browning Gold and an 870 and a Citori and a Red Label and a you get the picture. The gas guns in the lot are much smoother into the recoil AND they function from the hip, one handed, unsupported and you get the idea.

Shoot one before you plunk down a grand, if you don't like it you end up taking it in the shorts to get rid of it and buy something else. They are a lot cheaper on the used rack too, and pretty easy to find around here if you happen to like them.

[mete]

Shoot an 870 faster than a Benelli? you must live in la la land . Benelli cycles faster than any other semi auto. You should see the Benelli exhibitoin shooter , he throws a big handfull of clay birds into the air and hits them all before they hit the deck, no one has beaten his time. As far as reliability , when I got mine I asked their gunsmith about it ,he said that 50% of the guns returned because they wouldn't work only neede a claening, and thats with a gun that can be field striiped in less than 10 seconds. I'v eused mine for spoting clays . goose ,squirrel etc and am very happy with it.

[hksw]

I think Skunk was comparing his friends shooting skills with a pump to his with an M1. Not really going into whether the 870 is faster tha nthe M1.

I've read on Winchester's site that the SX2 action could possibly be faster than the Benelli's. (I say 'could' as it is Win's site.) I'll go see for myself when I get one.;)

I do agree with the recoil. My 1187 is a heck of a lot easier on the shoulder with heavy slug loads than any of my Benellis.

[harrydog]

Some people may be faster with an 870 than some people are with an M1 but an 870 is not inherently faster than an M1.
The X2 might be marginally faster than the M1, but we're talking a few hundredths of a second.
The X2 Practical does look like a nice piece, I must admit. In fact, I'd love to try one out.

[Island Beretta]

It is amazing the garbage some people spew when they do not like a gun (who the cap fits wear it!!:neener: ) or do not know anything about the gun.

I recently bought a Benelli and had a hard time deciding between it, a Beretta 391 and a Remington 1187. You know why I had a hard time-because I was listening to the crap being spewed by some- the Benelli cannot cycle 1 ounce loads reliably, the Benelli kicks like a mule, the Benelli is overpriced, the Benelli is this, the Benelli is that, yada yada yada!!


I finally asked the gun dealer to allow me to fire all 3 and he relented when he saw that I really was going to buy one!! Guess what - the Benelli far outperformed the others in speed of handling, weight, balance and accuracy; it was a little more expensive than the Remington and a lot cheaper than the Beretta. In terms of recoil the Beretta felt a little softer than the other two.

So I bought a M3 Super90 and since then I have carried it to the range and competed with it-never a problem- even in rain, even with 1 ounce loads, the pump and semi-auto modes are both smooth,flawless and quick, yada yada yada!!

I can't wait for bird season!! So try them out and you will see for yourself..

[RussB]

mete said, Benelli cycles faster than any other semi auto

Check out this link to another thread, scroll down to my post. Benelli doesn't make the fastest-cycling semi-auto shotgun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30

[dwestfall]

I just got a new Benelli M1S90 with a Surefire weaponlight on it (617FA), no sidesaddle. Tried a handful of Federal Tactical 00 and a handful of Federal Tactical Slugs. Neither would cycle the action. The spent shells were not being fully ejected.

This was a brand new gun, with no lube. Manual specified only lubing parts for corrosion resistance, so I skipped lubing it since I'm in a dry climate. Mistake? What parts should I be lubing for functioning?

Maybe with the Surefire weaponlight there's not enough recoil for the tactical loads?

I'll try some full-power slugs next weekend.

[Nippy]

I just got a new Benelli M1S90 with a Surefire weaponlight on it (617FA),


That made my day
:D

P.S. your grandchildren will love you for it :)

[hksw]

"I'll try some full-power slugs next weekend."

Run a few boxes of full load rounds (not necessarily slugs or buck, that might be too much punishment to your shoulder) to loosen up the action and spring a bit.

[dwestfall]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just got a new Benelli M1S90 with a Surefire weaponlight on it (617FA),
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That made my day


To be exact, I bought a new M1S90 and immediately PUT a Surefire weaponlight on it.

[dwestfall]

Run a few boxes of full load rounds (not necessarily slugs or buck, that might be too much punishment to your shoulder) to loosen up the action and spring a bit.

Unfortunately I won't be able to shoot any buckshot for awhile. The range I regulary use doesn't have any facilities for shooting buck. I can shoot slugs on the rifle range though so that's probably what I'll do.

I can only shoot the buck at or after IDPA or 3Gun matches at a more distant range, and I don't make as many of those as I'd like.

I'd really like to get the tactical loads to work, if only because I have a good quantity of them already.

BTW I found the size of the pattern to be pretty disappointing. My 870 with the Vang Comp barrel will keep to a 10" group out to about 35 yds with the Federal Tactical 00. This Benelli was close to 20" at 25 yds with the same load. In retrospect I guess the pattern is pretty standard. I guess I was hoping for a miracle.

[Skunkabilly]

Derek, did your infinitely tactical logistically prompt you to put the LM90 on or are you using the classic 6V light?

[Skunkabilly]

The buck and slugs. Mine says 'low recoil' but is yours the low base 'low recoil tactical' stuff?
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=367812

[Skunkabilly]

And the Walmart stuff I shoot the most. I also shoot the Winchester stuff as well. Low base, but never missed a beat even with a fully loaded saddle + sling.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=367815

[BlkHawk73]

Well, since the original question has been lost, I'll at least offer my aswers to cosmos7's post.

1) None

2) The Benelli will have a bit more felt recoil than your standard pump gun. It is after all recoil that operates the action of the gun. It's not unbearable though. (i enjoy mine greatly even w/ slugs, - I'm 135lbs)

3) Which one? Depends on what you inted it' use for. I'd suggest the M1 in one of it many variants. One stanadrd variant is changed to another simply by a different barrel. Different stock are also available.

I have owned a M1 "Defense" for a 5 or 6 years now and have been very happy with it. It runs as fast as I can pull the trigger and functions flawlessly. balances nicely and will cloverleaf 3 slugs @ 75 yards with iron sights (ghostring). I've contemplated the Montefeltro but passed due to lack of shotgun sports @ my club. New club this moth has a great shotgun program so the Montefeltro or Sport may be on the horizon.

incidentally, Benelli's website is updated recently and now has it's own BB forum.

[dport]

I currently have a Benelli M4. Great gun. It had eaten everything I've fed it EXCEPT Hornady's 8-pellet reduced recoil buckshot. Federal 9-pellet, Remington 8-pellet, and Estate 9-pellet reduced recoil buckshot all cycled flawlessly. Now that the gun has been broken in, I'm going back to the range to try the Hornady again. It's worth noting that the Hornady says "For Pump Shotguns Only" on the side of the box. I do not have a sidesaddle on it. I did test the gun with a Streamlight M3 and optics, Bushnell Holosight, on it.

I've fired Remington 1100's, Mossberg 500 and 590's, Remington 870's, Benelli M1's and Benelli M4's. I'd rate the recoil as follows from hardest to softest: Remington and Mossberg pump guns, Benelli M1, Benelli M4, and Remington 1100. However, I can get quicker follow-up shots with the M4 than I could the 1100. I'd be back on target with the 1100 and I'd have to wait for the action to complete its cycle. With the M4 the gun has already completed its cycle by the time I'm on target.

[dwestfall]

I still have the Surefire 6v light on it. The LM90 module has not arrived yet.

Mine says 'low recoil' but is yours the low base 'low recoil tactical' stuff?

High Base, "Tactical"

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=368298

[Al Thompson]

You know, a lot of this is simply individual taste. I owned two Benelli SGs and switched back to 870s due to the MOA. IIRC, the M1S90 kicked harder than my 1100, about the same as a pump. Stock fit probably has as much to do with percieved recoil as anything.

Two good friends are stout Benelli fans. It's the Indian, not the arrow. :)

[jthuang]

If your gun doesn't start functioning properly after a few boxes of break-in ammo, contact Wolff Gunsprings for their special spring that is supposed to fix the ammo problem.

FWIW my Benelli M1S90 w/ Surefire 617F has never missed a beat with Federal tactical ammo or regular 2.75" birdshot. It does not have the Wolff spring either.

Justin

[Skunkabilly]

Derek, have you even shot it w/out the light yet? Just to break it in?

Is it new, pre-owned from another vintage?

[dwestfall]

I have not shot it without the light. It is a brand new gun (okay, 10 rounds fired now...)

I ordered the Wolff reduced-power spring. If it doesn't "break in" with the slugs this weekend I'll try the spring.

FWIW I think the 617FA is a bit bulker than the 617F was.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Had a Benelli auto and hated it----have a Benelli NOVA and love it-----go figure.

Had an 11-87(pre-light contour)it was just flat out too heavy and cumbersome------my auto now is a Beretta 391----love it-----again----go figure.

To each his own---go try each and see what suits you best.

[abdrdude]

I know that you are primarily interested in a semi, but you might consider the Benelli Nova Pump.I myself grew up on a Remington 1100 and prefer semi-auto shotguns,but I currently own a Nova.It is the Special Purpose (Tactical) in 12ga with the ghost ring sights.One of the best shotguns that I have ever seen.The cost was just under $300.Excellent gun for such a low price. The recoil is quite managable.I highly recommend the Nova.Scott

[mete]

RussB, ok I stand corrected benelli isn't the fastest. By the way Benelli CAN be fired with one hand I have done it with mine. Also I have modified my bolt so it will be more reliable with light loads.

[G. Glock]

I've owned and competed (combat style matches) with a Benelli Super 90 for over 10 years. Great gun. The traditionalist side of me likes my 870, too. I could be very happy with either one, and I'm especially happy owning both.

If I were sent into the woods to defend myself tomorrow, guess I'd grab the Super 90, though. I've replaced the pistol stock with the standard stock, so it's just one incredibly handy, reliable, and light piece of artillery. Recoil is not an issue for me. I have long arms, so I have to add an extender stock pad anyway.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I hadn't cleaned the bolt in 13 years and was getting a light primer strike occasionally lately. Took her apart last weekend and cleaned her up - looks as though that solved the problem.

[G. Glock]

I've owned and competed (combat style matches) with a Benelli Super 90 for over 10 years. Great gun. The traditionalist side of me likes my 870, too. I could be very happy with either one, and I'm especially happy owning both.

If I were sent into the woods to defend myself tomorrow, guess I'd grab the Super 90, though. I've replaced the pistol stock with the standard stock, so it's just one incredibly handy, reliable, and light piece of artillery. Recoil is not an issue for me. I have long arms, so I have to add an extender stock pad anyway.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I hadn't cleaned the bolt in 13 years and was getting a light primer strike occasionally lately. Took her apart last weekend and cleaned her up - looks as though that solved the problem.