38 Super vs. 9mm Largo or 9mm Bergman Bayard?


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Route 66
December 24, 2005, 06:05 PM
I have an opportunity to get a pistol in 9mm Largo or 9mm Bergman Bayard. Can .38 ACP or .38 Super be used in it? Any other round?

Thanks and Merry Christmas!

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Jim Watson
December 24, 2005, 06:45 PM
What gun?
There are two things that affect the interchange.
Dimensions:
9mm BB/Largo is a 23mm tapered rimless case.
.38 ACP/Super is a 23 mm straight semirimmed case.
The straight vs taper part seldom makes much difference (I saw one guy to post that he preferred 9x23 brass for loading 9mm Steyr, which is a straight case.), but there are some Largo guns with too narrow a breechface for the semirim.
Ballistics.
.38 ACP is a little lighter load than Largo but hard to find. Super is a good deal hotter load than Largo and some of those Spanish guns are pretty soft. The Astras are probably of the best steel, but then they are blowback. And a real Bergman would be too valuable to take chances with.

R.W.Dale
December 24, 2005, 06:56 PM
The rim on 38acp/super can break the extractor on firearms chambered for 9mmlargo. No matter what anyone tells you DO NOT try 9x23. It may have the same exterior dimensions as 9mmlargo but it has DOUBLE the pressure rating. As for there being any other kind of ammo you can use the answer is no.

Reed1911
December 25, 2005, 09:55 AM
9mm Largo is not that hard to find, in fact we make it in both FMJ and HP at a decent price. Stick to the ammo your pistol is chambered for, you will have less problems and more fingers.

I agree DO NOT even attempt to shoot the 9x23 Winchester ammunition in a 9mm largo pistol. It is loaded to almot twice the pressure. :what:

armoredman
December 25, 2005, 10:47 AM
What the caliber is listed on the outside, is the caliber that goes on the inside.:scrutiny:
Get an oddball, and start reloading!:)

jerkface11
December 25, 2005, 12:20 PM
What the caliber is listed on the outside, is the caliber that goes on the inside.:scrutiny:
Get an oddball, and start reloading!:)
Well with the old european 9x23 cartridges you don't have to use what it says. You can use 9mm steyr, 9mm largo, 9mm bergman, bayard or even 9mm38 of course the only difference if any is the extractor cut :p

Route 66
December 25, 2005, 07:00 PM
Thanks for all the replies. The pistol in question is a Star "Super Modelo". I'll start looking for ammo in 9mm Largo or Bergman at the next gunshow in Indy and I'll follow the advice of sticking to those two only.

Herself
December 25, 2005, 07:36 PM
Your gun sounds like a Star Model A or B; check on the heel of the frame and see what's stamped there.

These are not the "tolerant chamber" Spanish guns, which were a straight-blowback design by Astra, and even those were not really intended for anything but 9 Largo.

The big-frame Stars were good solid guns, however, and the 9 Largo is nothing to sneer at. You do need to ask if the primer is corrosive when buying it; there is a lot of old ammo out there that is and very little new stuff. Some one of the resident experts can cover the (simple) extra steps you need to follow shooting corrosive ammunition. A shot of Windex down the bore after shooting is probably the minimum.

I shoot a Star Super B in 9 para, among many other Stars. They are good guns. 9 Largo has a small but loyal fanbase -- you can find a few sites with any good search engine.

Enjoy your Star!

--Herself

Onmilo
December 25, 2005, 09:05 PM
You can hand load .38 Super cases down to 1100 feet per second.
125 grain Speer 9mm bullets and 4.7 grains Winchester 231 powder is a good starting point.
The load works just fine in Stars, Llamas, and Astra 400s chambered in 9mm Largo.
Surplus International has boodles of genuine surplus Spanish 9mm Largo ammunition.
http://www.sillc.com

Moonclip
December 27, 2005, 06:06 PM
Agreed, stay away from non largo loadings, especially in the Star which does not have the garbage or tolerant chamber of the blowback Astra 400 which I stupidly passed at $150 recently though I did get a Astra 600 at $160.

For the reloaders out there who might know, would it be entirely possible and safe to use 9x23win brass loaded to largo pressures in these guns?

I'd take a Star A in largo but only for a very cheap price as it is not like you are going to go down to Wal Mart and buy ammo for it. Sarco and others offewr it at reasonable prices though. CCI blazer once loaded a hollowpoint loading for the 9mmlargo too.

Reed1911
December 27, 2005, 06:25 PM
Yes, 9x23 brass can be used to load the 9x23 Largo. The internal difference is not going to cause a problem when worked up from starting loads.

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