[Bigjake]

What would y'all suggest, if i was looking for something closest to the current USMC configuration (obviously, not select fire), what would get me closest without breaking the bank?? just need something to get familure with.

[GoRon]

Any of these Bushmasters would be a good place to start.AIMsurplus (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html)

The one at the top of the page is a great first AR.

[trueblue1776]

The best balance of quality and price I have seen so far is DPMS. I don't own one but I have shot them and they are good quality guns. Myself, I prefer a bushmaster, a little spendier but I just like it, no clear advantage over the DPMS. For a USGI style gun from DPMS you are looking at around $700-800 depending on options, thats a hell of a deal! The Bushie goes for a 150 more (about), both are solid safe bets

Don't be afraid to build one either, save some cash and get it just how you like it. Stag bare lower recievers have been going for around 90-105 bucks lately (they are good $#!+ too!!).

http://www.dpmsinc.com/index.asp
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa2s20.asp

Good luck, happy shopping

[Gary G23]

Stag Arms or Bushmaster.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Most manufacturers do a good job of building an AR and all have the occasional lemon. I recommend to most people that they go with the manufacturer that has the options they want.

A USMC style AR would have the following:

20" 1/7 twist barrel in chrome-lined 4150 steel Government profile barrel with 5.56 NATO chamber.
a flattop upper receiver
an A2 stock

If you want that exact rifle, then you have to go with Colt, Bushmaster, or one of the niche AR builders that will cost you some money. The biggest problem is that exact barrel isn't sold by too many manufacturers. Most will sell a 20" barrel with 5.56mm chamber; but they will usually use a 1/9 twist and 4140 steel.

The only difference between 4140 and 4150 is basically a 10% carbon content in the steel (making the 4150 barrel slightly harder and slightly better able to handle really high temps around 1200F).

The twist difference means that the 1/7 will handle longer and heavier bullets like the 73gr+ well; while the 1/9 may be iffy in some circumstances (but some 1/9s shoot the heavier ammo just fine).

The other difficult part to find will be the Government profile. Bushmaster only sells it as special order and I don't know what model Colt you would have to order to get that profile. This profile is thin underneath the handguards and thick from the front sight base to the muzzle. Most manufacturers just sell an HBAR profile that is thick from base to muzzle. It saves machining time for the manufacturer and gives a barrel with more rigidity and mass; but it adds a lot of weight out front and the Government Profile will do almost anything the HBAR will do unless you are shooting National Match.

If a 20" 1/9 4140 HBAR is close enough for you, then practically all manufacturers make the rifle you are looking for and I would concentrate on price and availability.

[Don't Tread On Me]

I'd do this:

Buy the BCM upper from Bravo Company. It is 20", govt profile, has bayonet lug, has the proper height F-marked front sight base, chrome lined, 5.56 chamber, 1/7 twist, is a flat top, and even has M4 feed ramps. It is pressure tested with a high pressure load, then is magnetically inspected.

It is $399. I have one myself.

You would need to get a bolt carrier group ($130), charging handle ($20), handguards ($20), then pick and choose anyone's complete A2 lower. Get an M16 carrier from G&R or whomever has one. The CMT one that is MP tested is good choice. This will give you a rifle that is as close to the A4 style rifle our troops are using as you can as a civilian. Otherwise, if you want the A2 carry handle style, then go with a Colt or a Bushmaster rifle complete. The flattop will require that you get either a detachable carry handle, or you add a rear sight, which there are many different kinds...


Again, if you go A2, a complete rifle will probably be better, and will have better resale value due to the lower being marked Bushmaster or Colt. If you get Stag or others, they don't sell nearly as fast or as well. Only AR fans respect their value, random folks at a gunshow only respond to A,B,C rifles.

[Capital Punishment]

"dont tread on me" has got the right idea.

Although, this Bushmaster would be the closest you could get to the USMC without adding/removing parts:

http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/275364/original/m16small.JPG

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172915

Thats my rifle that i just bought a few days ago.

It would be the Bushmaster XM-15 E2S with the 20" HBAR (heavy barrel) and the removable carrying handle (if you look closely you will see the rail underneath the handle).

[Don't Tread On Me]

That's a fine rifle above. It all depends what you feel is important. If you want the configuration to be as close as possible, then you'll have to buy various parts like I mentioned. If you want the "look" configuration, I'd go with that Bushmaster. You get a flattop, a carry handle...the works. All you give up is the 1/7 twist rate, and the barrel will be heavier because it will be thicker under the handguards. Some people actually prefer the thicker barrel and the 1/9 twist rate that Bushmaster offers, because it will be more accurate shooting the mid weight match bullets (60-69gr), not to say the 1/7 isn't accurate, but every twist is ideal for a certain weight. Also, the heavier barrel might be more accurate, but people argue that.


The Bushmaster will have superior resale value over any rifle you build yourself UNLESS you buy a complete Bushmaster lower and that BCM upper I spoke of. Then your average joe will happily buy it if you ever plan on selling it.

[f4t9r]

Let me say this COLT
Bushmaster would be the second pick

[Don't Tread On Me]

I agree Colt is the best, but he said not to break the bank. Bushmaster is already pushing it, but might be the only option. If he goes with a DPMS, he will not be getting chrome lining, whichi in my opinion is NOT optional on an AR, and possibly not having a real 5.56 chamber. If Bushmaster is 2nd Tier, then DPMS is 3rd...


Here's the buy the parts route that will achieve the closest possible configuration:

Stag Arms complete lower: $215 (anywhere)
CMT enhanced bolt carrier group & charging handle (package deal from Eagle): $130
BCM Upper, handguards: $420 (Bravo Company)
Detachable carry handle (RRA): $120


Total: $885. If you shop around and don't get ripped off, you can get the Bushmaster for that. However, this build is if you absolutely demand the config be as close as possible to USGI. Add a good $60 to make the Stag lower a Bushmaster lower.


Personally, I wouldn't pay $120 for a detachable carry handle, for that kind of money, you can buy a high quality back-up flip-up style iron sight. That way you can add an optic in the future and still keep the rear ironsight for back up.


The differences will be:


1/7, govt profile barrel, F height front sight base, M4 feedramps...shrouded firing pin (due to the enhanced carrier, although many new Bushy's I've seen have this carrier now)

vs.


1/9, Hbar barrel, Bushmaster brand recognition, and overall fit and finish (rifle upper and lower will match in color perfectly, or at least should :D ) Although the BCM is great looking and so are Stag products..so there's a chance that fit and finish will be equal. Bushmaster will also have some sort of warranty.


Tiny, and rather insignifcant differneces will be the Bushmaster will have a hex head grip screw vs. the flat head, and will have a plastic trigger guard instead of a metal one.

[SIGarmed]

I just thought I'd mention that Stag Arms is CMT. CMT is a major subcontractor of Colt so they're great quality. They provide parts to both RRA and Colt. I'm pretty sure that includes the receivers. You can't go wrong, but many people aren't aware. I think I'd rather have Stag than Bushmaster.

I just wish they sold their 20' flat top with the Govt. profile barrel, but oh well.

[spacemanspiff]

detachable carry handles worth $120???? geez and i've just had mine sitting around since i put the tripower on.

guess i should sell it and get some cash out of it. could also sell my handguards since i put the surefire foreend on it.

[ocabj]

If I were going to build a 'practical' AR, I'd probably go with the Stag lower and an upper from CMMG. CMMG has some nice uppers. Most 1 in 7" twist, 16, 18, and 20" barrels available.

[Lone_Gunman]

---

[Lone_Gunman]

Remember though that the leadership at Colt does not want you to have a rifle in military configuration.

They don't want a simple civilian like yourself owning guns with bayonet lugs, collapsible stocks, or flash hiders.

[trickyasafox]

i looked at stag they msrp for about 950, what do they retail for?

[Don't Tread On Me]

Remember though that the leadership at Colt does not want you to have a rifle in military configuration.

They don't want a simple civilian like yourself owning guns with bayonet lugs, collapsible stocks, or flash hiders.


Which is precisely why they sell them to distributors and FFL's who then turn around and sell them to me, a civilian. :rolleyes:

[Lone_Gunman]

They don't even list rifles with bayonet lugs, flash hiders, and collapsible stocks on their "civilian" website.

Distributors and FFLs can sell whatever they like to whoever they like, as long as it is legal. Going against company policy is not illegal so they can sell Colt law enforcement guns to you, but the fact remains that corporate Colt does not want to accept the liability of marketing that type of gun to civilians.

I realize Colt, like most other gun manufacturers, doesnt sell directly to individuals. This is not the old "Colt doesn't sell guns to the public anymore" internet story. The point I am making is they are not marketing guns with bayo lugs, collapsible stocks, etc., to civilians. They dont want you to have them.

They arent the only company that does this. Winchester markets some ammunition to LEO, even though it is legal for anyone to own, and Ruger doesnt want dealers to sell 20 and 30 round Mini 14 mags to anyone but LEO.

[Don't Tread On Me]

Seems like all the folks buying Colts these days are buying the LE rifles. You'd think that a company that isn't interested in selling bayo lugs and flash hiders would have tuned into this "leak" and would force distributors to sell only to officers with dept letterhead.


Maybe they will, who knows. I think they are tapping into the very big and booming AR market without having to deal with any negative impact. Remember, Colt is partially owned by government. They have a lot of anti's on their n**s.

[Lone_Gunman]

I think they are tapping into the very big and booming AR market without having to deal with any negative impact.

Obviously that is what they are doing. Their official policy is "these guns are law enforcement only" if they ever get sued.

They want your money, and they want it without any liability.

Now the gun manufacturer liability reform has passed, you would think that they would change that policy and market their products to civilians, but the leadership at Colt has never been too bright, so I doubt this will happen.

[Bigjake]

Well, i didn't know there was so much to these things...

the biggest reason i wanted something close to mil spec is that i plan to enlist at somepoint this year, and i figure it can't hurt to be familure with the gun i'll be spending lots of time with.

I really appriciate all the info thats been posted here, especially the build directions from Don't Tread on Me and Bartholomew Roberts.

If i were to buy a stock bushy of some sort, how much would the twist rate throw off my shooting when i trasition over to a milspec 1/7?? function is the biggest factor here, the only reason i want an AR is to get used to handling and shooting one. 100% authenticity doesn't matter so much to me so long as the bushmaster is close in fit and function.

[Spreadfire Arms]

Myself, I prefer a bushmaster, a little spendier but I just like it, no clear advantage over the DPMS.

DPMS and Rock River, amongst other brands, do not come standard with a chrome lined barrel, which Colt, Bushmaster, and Stag Arms all do.

Colt, Lewis Machine & Tool, and Stag Arms all come standard with 1/7" barrel twist too.

DPMS and Rock River will come standard with non-chrome lined 1/9" twist barrels.

just something to consider if you are shooting alot or if you are shooting the heavier 77 grain bullets.

in regards to Colt, they command a much higher price than any other AR on the market. Colt 6920's were going for $1300+ in the last two months. now you can hardly find one in stock at a dealer. Colt stopped all production of their semiautos to fulfill their US Government contract. they said they will supposedly begin production in January of 2006 but i won't hold my breath.

that's not to say Colt makes a better rifle, as most of the parts are all made by the same suppliers. unconfirmed rumor is that Stag Arms' sister company, Continental Machine & Tool (CMT), makes the lowers for Colt. they won't confirm it. but they do confirm they make the lowers for Rock River. if you look at a Rock River lower you'll see the first two letters on your serial number are "CM" for Continental Machine.

most of the Colt upper receivers ive seen lately are stamped with the Canadian company Diemaco's stamp (the splinter "D" proof mark).

if you are going to buy a factory rifle, i'd stick with Colt, Bushmsater, Stag Arms, and Rock River. DPMS is a close second. i'd shy away from Doublestar and Olympic. that's not to say Doublestar is bad, they are just kind of new to the "complete rifle" market. their parent company is J&T Distributing which sells AR parts all day long. they are just too new for me to know if their rifles are good. i have heard alot of complaints about Olympic's quality control. i know dealers that have stopped carrying Olympic since they seem to get alot of unsatisfied customers bringing them back in for repairs.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If i were to buy a stock bushy of some sort, how much would the twist rate throw off my shooting when i trasition over to a milspec 1/7??

Not at all unless you are using heavier ammo. The USMC is currently leading the push to switch to 77gr; but for your purposes it wouldn't matter (except that a 20" 1/9 may or may not be able to use 77gr ammo).

function is the biggest factor here, the only reason i want an AR is to get used to handling and shooting one. 100% authenticity doesn't matter so much to me so long as the bushmaster is close in fit and function.

If you just want it for that, I would go with the Bushmaster HBAR. It will get you as close as possible at a reasonable price and after toting around the heavier barrel, the Government Profile on the one at boot camp will feel lightweight and handy.

[Bigjake]

So... without looking too stupid for asking this... which one would that be from this list ??

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/

just so i know what model to look for when i shop tommorow.

[Don't Tread On Me]

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa2s20.asp


This is what you want. This is the A2 version, which is what you'll probably be using in boot camp. I don't think they have optics at that level, and teach irons only. So there isn't really a point to getting a flattop unless you plan on adding optics later on.


You should expect to pay a LOT less than retail.

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/inven_product.asp?dealer_id=837399&item=BCWA2S%2D20&instock=all&manufact_combo=Bushmaster&mod_ser_combo=None&category_combo=2&model=None&g_type=Rifle&act_type=&finish_type=None&calib_combo=223&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&left_handed=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=

Atlantic (just a random seller online that I chose) has it for $840. If you shop around, you can do better than that. The A3 version is $910 (http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/inven_product.asp?dealer_id=837399&item=BCWA3S%2D20&instock=all&manufact_combo=Bushmaster&mod_ser_combo=None&category_combo=2&model=None&g_type=Rifle&act_type=&finish_type=None&calib_combo=223&sight_class_combo=None&price_range=None&left_handed=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=), but comes with a carry handle, so you get the best of both worlds if you want to add fancy optics later on.

RRA sells an A2 rifle, but it is also a 1/9, and is quality in many areas except they don't have chrome lining, and that to me is a deal breaker. Don't buy AR's without chrome lining.


The Bushmaster is 1/9, but that won't matter. You should shoot either 55's or 62 grain bullets. The 62's will match exactly what you will be using in the military. I seriously doubt the military is using premium 77's in training. From what I hear, the 77's are scarce and very much in demand, and the majority of the soldiers in theater can't get their hands on it. So twist doesn't matter. Also, a 20" barrel has a good chance of shooting the 75-77's due to bullet achieving higher velocity through the 1/9 equating to more RPM's. But that's another topic..


All you sacrifice is a little weight. This rifle will be noticibly heavier in the barrel area. The USGI profile barrels will feel lightweight and handy in comparison. This might be a good thing, as you will get used to handling a heavier rifle. The rest of the rifle is close enough to where you won't mind the differences. The assembly and disassembly is IDENTICAL as well as the cleaning and a few other things. So you should be able to use this rifle just fine to gain experience with the platform.


For what you need, this is probably your best bet. It gives you the most flexibility in all areas from rifle to resale.

[trueblue1776]

DPMS and Rock River will come standard with non-chrome lined 1/9" twist barrels.



A marine should know how to clean a rifle after use, therefore let the guy save some $$$

[GoRon]

So... without looking too stupid for asking this... which one would that be from this list ??


The first rifle in the Link (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html) I gave you would be the one that matches your needs.

[Bigjake]

well, thank you all who've helped me out, looks like i'll be picking up a bushy. I'd like to build an AR sometime, but right now its more important to get one soon, so i can shoot it a bunch before taking the plunge with enlistment.

thanks again, y'all

[TheDutchman]

RockRiver or Stag

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'll disagree with the excellent advice give you by Don't Tread On Me on just one point. Even though you will need to know irons, I don't think the A2 is worth it. You can always add irons to a flattop; but the A2 configuration does not lend itself well to optics.

If the sole purpose of this rifle were only going to be boot camp prep, then MAYBE; but since this will be your personal property you will probably want some flexibility and going A2 removes a fair portion of that flexibility without giving much in the way of $$$ savings.

[pcf]

I wouldn't recommend buying an AR15 in preparation for bootcamp. If you join the Marines you're going to spend more time than you can shake a stick at with your rifle. (I'm sure soldiers get to spend plenty of time with their rifles as well).

In boot camp, out of the 16 unq's at the rifle range half were guys that "knew" how to shoot (20 out of a 130 in the company claimed to "know" how to shoot). Recruits that "know" how to shoot are a PMI's nightmare. Recruits and boots that "know" things or are "familar" with stuff are everybody's nightmare.

If you want an AR15 buy an AR15, don't buy one to get ready for boot camp. The only thing you should buy to get ready for bootcamp is running shoes.