Regarding Handgun laws and general


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g-nome
December 27, 2005, 12:46 AM
Noob with a quandary
I'm not sure if all the questions below differ much from state to state but if so then what are they in regard to CA MO and NV:

1. Under 21 and in possession of a handgun. Whether it was obtained through gifting or whatever.
If not 21 or over does it matter whether one still lives with parent/legal guardian as opposed to not living with parent/legal guardian? Is either way legal or illegal?

2. Okay you know how you see drawings/contests in gun magazines for gun giveaways? The rules always imply you must only be at least 18 EVEN IF the drawing is for a handgun! How is that possible/legal?

3.Private Party transactions. How does that work exactly?
Does the firearm have to be sent to an FFL dealer or is it just a transaction between the two individuals?
Does this differ between long guns and hand guns?

What about at gun shows? Any difference there if you're NOT purchasing from a vendor/dealer but instead an individual?

Thanks in advance.

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rritter
December 27, 2005, 06:26 PM
The rules do vary from state to state. I'm not sure about the three states you mention. Federal law prohibits a licensed dealer from selling a handgun to somebody under 21 years old. It does not prohibit somebody under 21 from owning a handgun - could buy it privately, receive it as a gift, etc.

In Texas, for example, people 18 and older can own handguns, with no parental involvement. Under 18, they must be supervised by a parent or somebody designated in writing by the parent. There are probably other conditions or possibilities, as well.

Private sales will vary from state to state. Some states require all private sales to go through a dealer; others have no restrictions as long as the two people are legally able to own a firearm. At a gun show, a licensed dealer has to obey the same laws as if he were selling from his store; a private individual has to obey the same laws as any other time. There is nothing special about sales at gun shows - they must all be done in accordance with the law.

Librarian
December 28, 2005, 12:58 AM
California:

Must be 18 to receive a handgun via any transfer, since you must have a Handgun Safety Certificate to be eligible to receive a handgun, and it's illegal to issue the HSC to someone not yet 18; Federal law is 21 to buy a handgun. Must have wrtten permission from parent/guardian, or presence of parent/guardian to possess in public, as at a range. See Laws re: Juveniles (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12101.htm). Must be 18 to buy ammunition for a shoulder weapon, 21 to buy ammo for a handgun - Laws re: ammo (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12316.htm).

PPT: For all types of firearms (except "curios and relics" - buried here (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12070.htm) under 12078), both parties appear in person at California FFL, do paperwork; transferee pays DROS fee, undergoes background check, has 10-day wait. In CA, gun shows are not different - sellers are either FFL dealers or private individuals who must (almost always) use FFL dealers for a transfer.

g-nome
December 28, 2005, 05:14 AM
California:

Must be 18 to receive a handgun via any transfer, since you must have a Handgun Safety Certificate to be eligible to receive a handgun, and it's illegal to issue the HSC to someone not yet 18; Federal law is 21 to buy a handgun. Must have wrtten permission from parent/guardian, or presence of parent/guardian to possess in public, as at a range.
Ohhhh okay. So you're saying if it's merely TRANSFERRED like in a drawing/contest then you only must be 18? Because of the HSC?

Okay more questions:
So in CA to go into the FFL and pick up a handgun that was won in a drawing/entry must the parent/guardian be present and/or submit written permission or not? They must only be present in public/at range?

Some info: I will be 21 in 5 months. So there's a entry for a handgun I'm wanting to submit for and just needed to know what the deal was.

Thanks again.

Librarian
December 28, 2005, 05:30 PM
12101 says 12101. (a)(1) A minor shall not possess a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if one of the following circumstances exists:12101 (a)(2)(C) says(C) The minor is at least 16 years of age, the minor has the prior written consent of his or her parent or legal guardian, and the minor is actively engaged in, or is in direct transit to or from, a lawful, recreational sport, including, but not limited to, competitive shooting, or agricultural, ranching, or hunting activity, or a motion picture, television, or video production, or entertainment or theatrical event, the nature of which involves the use of a firearm.Not being a lawyer, I don't know if that exception would let you pick up a handgun you may win. Restrictions seem to be a lot narrower for minors. Since target shooting is a legitimate recreational sport, maybe you could have the transfer done at a dealer who also runs a range, and try out the gun as soon as you get it, and then bring it home 'in direct transit to or from'.

But it would be simpler to wait the 5 months, or bring a parent who would take it home in his/her possession - don't have to have HSC to possess, although you do have to have a clean record.

Walking the edges of the law usually seems more risk than I want to assume. Mistakes might get a conviction for a gun-related crime, which might have repercussions for ownership thereafter.

And it's a darned shame that something that should be so reasonable and straightforward has all these landmines...

jefnvk
December 28, 2005, 05:52 PM
Federal law: Someone must be 18 to own a handgun. A handgun may not be transfered to someone under 21 from a FFL dealer. You cannot take possession of a handgun from a dealer until you are 21, period, end of story. No restriction on private party, except that you must be 18. Also, an FFL dealer may not transfer ammo that is to be used in a handgun to anyone under 21.

I would bet that if the drawing involves a handgun, it is 21 to enter. If it is just a local raffle drawing, it may be different, if the guns are not being transfered through a dealer.

The key is, that if it has to be yellow formed, you cannot get it. The only way to get it is through a private party transfer.

whm1974
December 28, 2005, 05:56 PM
Also, an FFL dealer may not transfer ammo that is to be used in a handgun to anyone under 21.

If said handgun ammo(say 9mm) is to be used in a rifle can a dealer then sell it to a person under 21?

-Bill

newfalguy101
December 28, 2005, 06:07 PM
Ammo sales are NOT "regulated" as such.

The dealer must ASK the buyer if they are old enough and if its for a handgun if appropriate AND THATS THE END OF IT.

He doesnt have to verify, or track or any of the same jazz associated with a firearm.

For instance, a 18yo comes into my shop to buy 9mm ammo as long as I ASK him if its for a rifle, I am covered, if HE lies its on him.

Please be aware that the above is FEDERAL regs only, I am quite sure some states or other localities have their own rules.

So to answer your question:

If said handgun ammo(say 9mm) is to be used in a rifle can a dealer then sell it to a person under 21?

The answer as far as federal law: YES

jefnvk
December 28, 2005, 11:31 PM
If said handgun ammo(say 9mm) is to be used in a rifle can a dealer then sell it to a person under 21?

-Bill

Yep.

However, many stores will not. I find usually the bigger chain stores just say NO, although Wal-mart is kind enough discern a difference.

He doesnt have to verify, or track or any of the same jazz associated with a firearm.


Yeah, should have mentioned that.

newfalguy101
December 28, 2005, 11:51 PM
Funny you should mention the "w" word there jefnvk ;) ;)

The knucklehead I had the pleasure of dealing with last evening asked me " For a handgun or rifle" ( I was buying 40S&W ) and I gave my normal response which normally tells em everything they want to know.

I said " doesnt matter I am over 21"

He proceeds to grumble and tells me that "they" say we have to "tracK' that info, till I told him "fine, I will buy it somewhere else"

He decides to just enter handgun and continue with the transaction, all the while grumbling about "they" told us we have to "track" that.

I finally had enough and looked at him and said "NO they didnt, Wally said you have to track it, explained the real facts to him and ended with

"At least thats what I was told when I got my FFL"

I know its silly to get cranky but it just hit me all wrong last night for some reason.

jefnvk
December 29, 2005, 02:20 PM
Yep, their little computer pops up with the question. Can't go any further before they get an answer.

Whether or not they keep records on that, I dunno. But I do know that they don't have a name with the records, so it doesn't really matter.

newfalguy101
December 29, 2005, 02:27 PM
Yep, their little computer pops up with the question. Can't go any further before they get an answer.

Whether or not they keep records on that, I dunno. But I do know that they don't have a name with the records, so it doesn't really matter.


I know that and it doesnt bother me in the least.

Like I said it just hit me all wrong last night, by the way, this was not the first time I have crossed paths with this particular guy, who likes to spout "laws" and "rules" when he really doesnt know what he's talking about.

Next time I will just avoid this feller and have someone else ring it up.

jefnvk
December 29, 2005, 04:06 PM
Ah, someone who likes to spout off what they don't really know, and lets the power of their duties as head cashier get to them :)

Sheldon J
December 29, 2005, 09:41 PM
are strange If you have a FFL then you can only sell to a 21 year old. However if you are a pivate citizen once an 18 year old has attained his green card (Michigan form of gun registration) AKA purchase permit / safety inspection, which is required of all hand gun buyers (applicant has to go through a NICS check) then it is a legal to sell to them. CCW permit holders do not require a green card to purchase however they still have to submit their gun for the "safety inspection" within 10 days of picking up the gun.:cuss:

g-nome
January 2, 2006, 05:54 AM
But it would be simpler to wait the 5 months, or bring a parent who would take it home in his/her possession - don't have to have HSC to possess, although you do have to have a clean record.
Hm, that seems an interesting idea. Is it possible (if anyone knows) were the gun to be transferred to my FFL, that they (FFL) could hold it for long enough that I could THEN go in 5 months from now and pick it up or not? I'm thinking probably not.
Thanks

ingram
January 2, 2006, 06:22 AM
Wait a minute, hold the horses.

Are you all saying that as an 18 year old I can own a handgun as long as I buy it through a private sale? I live in WA state and I've been declined buying 9mm ammo for a carbine (Granted it was a big chain), if this is true I am going to start looking for one right away. I just need some clarification on what requirements there are for an 18 y/o. I got the private sale part, and I am all checked out to buy long guns, so I can get a hand gun from any private sale and it will be legal?

newfalguy101
January 2, 2006, 08:34 AM
Hm, that seems an interesting idea. Is it possible (if anyone knows) were the gun to be transferred to my FFL, that they (FFL) could hold it for long enough that I could THEN go in 5 months from now and pick it up or not? I'm thinking probably not.
Thanks

Its possible you may be able to find an FFL who will hold your purchase, but, frankly, as a part-time dealer I would be very hesitant to hold a gun for someone who is underage untill they are of age.

The simple reason is this:

When you order you are underage, therefore I wil get a "decline" when I run NICS ( based on age), or at least that will be my assumption. Simply stated if a buyer isnt legal at the time they order I wouldnt order for them, I would also be very hesitant to accept a transfered firearm as there is a possibility I will get "stuck" with it if you get "denied"

g-nome
January 2, 2006, 04:50 PM
Ah, thanks falguy . . .
Like I said; didn't think so but had to ask. :D
thanks again

wdlsguy
January 2, 2006, 05:21 PM
Are you all saying that as an 18 year old I can own a handgun as long as I buy it through a private sale?

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/StateLaws.aspx?ST=WA

I live in WA state and I've been declined buying 9mm ammo for a carbine

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts
...
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver:

(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
...

They should ask you if the ammunition is for a rifle or a pistol...

Technosavant
January 2, 2006, 06:48 PM
MO: Must be 21 to have a handgun. Like I had mentioned in another of your threads, this is regulated by that miserable Permit to Acquire system, which is required in ALL ownership changes of a handgun (a very strict reading would imply that a PTA is even needed to hand your piece to somebody else at the range for a couple shots).

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