flashbangs in home defense?

[ka50]

Are they legal? I'd assume they are classified as regular fireworks, since they do not do any harm other than noise and a flash.

I would consider them essential in close quarter combat. Can civilians get those?

[BullfrogKen]

Flashbangs for home defense . . . .

I would consider them essential in close quarter combat.

What led you to this conclusion?

[SKN]

Flashbangs (noise flash diversion devices) are classified as explosive devices by ATF which strictly regulates their legitimate sale only to law enforcement agencies and the military.

Your alternative is to attempt to modify railroad torpedoes, M-80s (cherry bombs), or military grenade simulators.

[kage genin]

Some may disagree with me here, but for me, home defense is NOT the same as close quarters combat.

My understanding (flawed as it may be) is that flashbangs are used for stunning the occupants of a room before moving into it and clearing it. I haven't thought much about the occupants of said room tossing a flashbang OUTSIDE their room to stun potential room invaders, but to each his own.

I know for California, at least, they are not legal (no surprise there), even though fireworks can be bought in some cities. I highly doubt that flashbangs are classified as 'fireworks'

[chopinbloc]

IF one were able to get flashbangs or a reasonable facsimile thereof legally, i can see a valid use for them. besides the fact that they'd just be loads of fun for new year's eve and the fourth, during a breakdown of civil authority such as has been experienced during large scale riots and natural disasters (like every time the raiders lose.... or win) police will not be able to respond to your house. the most accepted tactic for dealing with home invaders is to hole up in a "safe" place if possible with your family and call 911 to let the professionals deal with the problem. if there will be no cavalry available, it will be your responsibility to clear the house on your own. i can see how having every advantage possible would be a GOOD thing. room clearing should be done by at least a four man team but two can do a pretty good job if necessary and a flash bang sure would help to clear large areas or complicated rooms.

i tell you that i have no intention of going "quietly into that good night." i will fight with every tool and every second of training that i have. if there are no professionals available to relieve me i will be forced to take the fight to the enemy. heck, i bought some smoke grenades, mostly for fun, partly for rescue if stranded in the desert and, maybe a little bit because you never know when you'll have to move across an open area under enemy fire;) smoke grenades put out ALOT of smoke, too so you could even use them as a sort of ad hoc cs gas - the smoke is a mild irritant and when concentrated it really sucks. plus, if i throw one of the yellow ones at some ignorant bangers, they might even think it's mustard gas or some such; of course, if i'm wearing my promask while i do this, it might lend credence to the illusion:evil:

okay, let's face it: i think everyone hear absolutley adores just about anything with "grenade" in the name and regardless of the real practicality, it sure would be FUN to play with flash bangs, smoke, incendiary, even a genuine m67 grenade, hand, fragmentary would be a real hoot. who wouldn't want to impress the guys at the range with a case of grenades? sure, you gotta throw 'em BEHIND the berm and you don't get to watch 'em go off, but it would be FUN, right? right? okay, maybe it's just me. and i thought you guys ENJOYED blowing stuff up and making loud noises.

[mete]

The flash bangs temporarely blind and stun but the effect lasts only a very short time . When cops use it they are supposed to move in immediately after the flashbang goes off !!

[1911 guy]

I'd go with the assumption that you'll be in close proximity to the BG in a HD situation. Flash grenades will also deafen you at close range, as well as impair your sight. Before you ask, no, closing your eyes when you know it's gonna pop isn't going to work. So in my opinion they're just extra junk on hand to store if your primary use is going to be HD.

[Double Naught Spy]

Some may disagree with me here, but for me, home defense is NOT the same as close quarters combat.

My understanding (flawed as it may be) is that flashbangs are used for stunning the occupants of a room before moving into it and clearing it. I haven't thought much about the occupants of said room tossing a flashbang OUTSIDE their room to stun potential room invaders, but to each his own.

Saying that flashbangs are used for stunning the occupants of a room before moving into it is like saying guns are used for killing people. In other words, that is just one application of the technology.

If you watch Shootout on The History Channel of late, you will find that even the military uses flashbangs for reason other than entry and clearing of a room. They also use flashbangs as a means of defense for matters such as trying to retrieve fallen US soldiers from a structure still containing insurgents. In other words, not to stun the occupants to make entry into a room, but to stun occupants of the adjoining room so that soldiers could vacate the room will extracting the downed soldier so as to not come under fire and to not worry about being fragged by their own grenades (hence using flashbangs).

The flashbang is simply a stun or distraction tool that can be used to temporarily impair the capabilities of those near it when it explodes without subjecting those folks to lethal force. Just because they are popularly known for their use by law enforcement to stun occupants of a room before entry does not mean that said task is their only valid, real, or intended use.

As for the issue of tossing into a room and tossing out of a room, SWAT teams and others that use flashbangs also toss them out of one room as well, when they are inside structures and believe bad guys are in the next room.

[boofus]

They are classified as Destructive Devices. Having an unregistered one is the same as having an illegal machinegun in the eyes of the law. Make sure you pay the $200 tax to ATF before you buy/make one or else you get a 10 year vacation at the greybar hotel.

Since in the eyes of ATF there is no difference between a flashbang, pipebomb, or grenade... you may as well use a grenade to clear out your home. It'll be more effective.

[GoBrush]

I see flash bangs as an offensive weapon not a defensive weapon dont see a need for them in your own home while you are in it. There may be an application in some kind of SHTF senerio if there were no Law Enforcement around and you had some barricaded hostage situation or something. If they were available at a reasonable price I would probably buy a few for fun but just dont see any realistic application for them. Sorry


Just read Double Naught's post and he has made some very good points I retract most all of what I said. I think the tuff part of having them would be storage I am sure you would have to rotate your stock every couple years to make sure you did not have any go bad.:neener:

[Preacherman]

Some of you guys worry me... :D

Seriously, I would hate to think of untrained personnel getting hold of (much less using) these things - and I speak as one who is trained and experienced in their use. They have a very short fuse (the South African-issue ones had 1½-second fuses), so you'd better get rid of them really, really quickly; they have a blast effect in close proximity, which can cause really serious injury (one guy I know lost his hand when one went off next to his wrist); and they require team tactics for use. You can't just throw one, wait until it goes off, and saunter in to shoot up the room - as private citizens, we don't have that kind of law enforcement discretion or authority. The effects will wear off within a couple of seconds, so if the room is full of BG's, you won't have been able to secure them before they're back in resistance mode, and you'll be right in there with them - just the place you don't want to be!

No, I can't really see any place for these things in private hands. Far too much opportunity for error and/or accident, and no fire team available to make the best use of their advantages.

And, ka50, you worry me... first of all with your residential situation, and now with statements such as
I would consider them essential in close quarter combat
Where on earth have you been training? Who's been telling you this nonsense? I think you'd better go and do an intensive training course at someplace like Gunsite, as well as LFI-1 with Mas Ayoob, to learn what's legal, and what will - and won't - work in defensive situations.

[ka50]

And, ka50, you worry me...

Sorry, but you worry me with your narrow perspective.

In close quarter combat you need every single peace of equipment to gain an edge. If your house is full of assault rifle weilding BG's, then you can pull up your Massod's book and hope for the best I suppose. I've read his stuff, too, by the way. And I also play airsoft, including close quarter combat. You just have no idea how hard it is to supress an enemy who's ready to kill you and has means to do so in close quarter combat.

[cslinger]

AFAIK these things can also cause a fire which would be a no no in my house anyway.

Count me among the folks who think these would be a bad idea for HD for all the reasons already enumerated.

I am all for being prepared and I have a unique perspective on what can happen as far as home invasions go but all things considered I really don't think the average home owner needs much more then a good solid handgun or shotgun to get the job done or defend until the guys who get paid to put their butts on the line show up.

My two cents. Now I always thought having some kind of massively bright strobe light effect triggered upon room entry would play hell with somebody not expecting it. :neener: :what:

[itgoesboom]

Sorry, but you worry me with your narrow perspective.

:rolleyes: :scrutiny: :eek: Something tells me that some little child who found his parents computer is going to be escorted from this site very shortly.

And I also play airsoft, including close quarter combat. You just have no idea how hard it is to supress an enemy who's ready to kill you and has means to do so in close quarter combat.


1. Oh, you play airsoft! WOW, you are an expert.

2. While you are aiming the second part of your comment at Preacherman, maybe you should actually look into who is he, where he has served, and where he currently works. Maybe then you would realize that he is someone to listen to when it comes to knowledge about combat as well as mentallity of evil-doers, rather than someone to insult.

I.G.B.

[ka50]

:rolleyes: :scrutiny: :eek: Something tells me that some little child who found his parents computer is going to be escorted from this site very shortly.

1. Oh, you play airsoft! WOW, you are an expert.

2. While you are aiming the second part of your comment at Preacherman, maybe you should actually look into who is he, where he has served, and where he currently works. Maybe then you would realize that he is someone to listen to when it comes to knowledge about combat as well as mentallity of evil-doers, rather than someone to insult.

I.G.B.

Airsoft is used by the military and police to practice tactics, including forced entry and CQB.

He might be knowledgable guy for all I care, but his knowledge hasn't shined through in this thread. Saying tactical advantage is nonsense is like saying having a gun in the first place is nonsense. Put 2 and 2 together and something makes me doubt his qualifications you talk of.

[1911 guy]

Ka50, look into Preacherman's bio a little before you go touting your airsoft experience and assuming what a guy called Preacherman knows and doesn't know. Some people will surprise you. He's one of them.

[Janitor]

You just have no idea how hard it is to supress an enemy who's ready to kill you and has means to do so in close quarter combat.
Uh ...

You knew you were talking to an experienced soldier when you wrote this, right?


Saying tactical advantage is nonsense is like saying having a gun in the first place is nonsense.
Where did ANYONE say that having a tactical advantage is nonsense?
-

[Preacherman]

http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/lilly/hmm3grin2orange.gif http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/laughing/icon_smile_lachuh.gif http://www.cs.umu.se/~c02ndg/Smilies/jump.gif http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif http://bestsmileys.com/lol/18.gif

[Janitor]

Darnit Preacherman!

Here we all are ... being all serious and stuff ... then you go and, you go and, you go ... well ...

.... you're just having too much fun with this!
-

[Preacherman]

Heck, Janitor, it's not often that the S&T forum is so entertaining! :D

I'm thinking Monty Python and the Holy Flash-Bang here... :evil:

[Phantom Warrior]

He might be knowledgable guy for all I care, but his knowledge hasn't shined through in this thread. Saying tactical advantage is nonsense is like saying having a gun in the first place is nonsense. Put 2 and 2 together and something makes me doubt his qualifications you talk of.



ka50,

I couldn't help noticing that you have been around THR for about a month. I won't try and guess your other qualifications, but you are probably still becoming familiar w/ the people that post on this board.

I've been here for two and a half years now. Preacherman is on the short list of people I really pay attention to. When he talks, I listen. He has most assuredly been there and done that. I don't know much about CQB and police tactics, but you may find yourself regretting dismissing his comments so lightly.

[Arethusa]

In close quarter combat you need every single peace of equipment to gain an edge. If your house is full of assault rifle weilding BG's, then you can pull up your Massod's book and hope for the best I suppose.
So, uh... that happen often?

This is the kind of stuff that makes everyone here look utterly bat**** insane to outside observers.

[Janitor]

Heck, Janitor, it's not often that the S&T forum is so entertaining! :D

I'm thinking Monty Python and the Holy Flash-Bang here... :evil:
And there goes another slug of coke, down the keyboard.

:)
-

[Carl N. Brown]

Flash bang grenade is the tactical equivalent of a Dragon's Breath
shotgun round: Loud noise and flash, designed to temorarily stun
an unsuspecting person so they can be overwelmed while disoriented.
The sensory over-load only lasts a short time and is really effective
on the totally unexpecting person.

I discussed the use of dragon's breath in a shotgun with a bail
bondsman's agent (bounty hunter) and fired a round myself at the
range at dusk about ten years ago. The bondsman' agent used the
dragon's breath as his "Avon calling" entry distraction. So the flash
bang has some value for an assault.

For defense, I don't think the flash bang has much value.
A home invader is going to be aware of what they are doing and may
not be totally stunned by a flash bang grenade. On the other hand,
you could temorarily lose your night vision and hearing when you need
it most.

A flash bang grenade is as dangerous as a blank shotgun shell or a dragon's
breath shotgun round. The drill is to toss the grenade in an unoccupied
corner of a room. At close quarters it is like being hit by the muzzle blast
of a shotgun: it can maim or kill at contact range.

Grenades for home defense can lead to a situation of being hoist by
one's own petard, or being a victim of one's own infernal device.

And for most of us they are illegal, anywho.

[Phyphor]

Airsoft is used by the military and police to practice tactics, including forced entry and CQB.

He might be knowledgable guy for all I care, but his knowledge hasn't shined through in this thread. Saying tactical advantage is nonsense is like saying having a gun in the first place is nonsense. Put 2 and 2 together and something makes me doubt his qualifications you talk of.

Wow, I've never seen anyone tap-dance on a minefield before....

[itgoesboom]

Airsoft is used by the military and police to practice tactics, including forced entry and CQB.

1. Never seen any documentation of this, however I have seen documentation that some top notch trainers using it in their training.

2. Doesn't matter who uses is. Unless you practice it perfectly, it is a waste of time. Imperfect practice doesn't help you.

3. Just because someone practices airsoft on occasion doesn't make them an expert.

4. It is only a part of the training that is given, and a small part at that.

He might be knowledgable guy for all I care, but his knowledge hasn't shined through in this thread. Saying tactical advantage is nonsense is like saying having a gun in the first place is nonsense. Put 2 and 2 together and something makes me doubt his qualifications you talk of.

1. First off, Preacherman has actually served in combat, as compared to you serving in an airsoft battle.

2. Do you really think your knowledge has shown through on this thread? You posted theoretical information regarding flashbangs, things you probably learned playing R6 and CS.

3. Preacherman gave a very good synopsis based on his real training and usage of the real thing. He gave more information about the real usage than anyone in this thread. You chose to ignore that.

4. Between a new member who lists his experience as playing airsoft, and a plankowner member here who has actually seen combat and lived, I think I will place my trust in Preacherman's advice.

5. You accuse others of being narrow minded, but when they point out real life information that they have recieved during actual military training with the real deal, you close your mind and refuse to listen.

On a more personal note, Preacherman is probably one of the most respected members here. When he posts information, the rest of us listen. I will kindly suggest that you do the same.

I.G.B.

[jeremywills]

I doubt you will see any more postings in this thread from KA50 probably.

With that said, why not just surround your house with claymores and be done with it. No one would get in if I had my way :D See the Signature, best HD system around :D hahaha just kidding.


On a serious note though, I wouldn't utilize fashies for SD, they are IMHO an offensive breaching and clearing tool. End of Story. No I dont have any hands on experiences with them, but I do know they are highly effective in Counter Strike and I have to say that they are very useful in an offensive situation. Yes Im more of a Armchair Commando at times, but there is such a thing as common sense and I just cannot belive someone would actually consider using them for defending thier home. Im sorry but I just dont see it.
J

[geekWithA.45]

[jayne cobb, being chased by reavers]
Well, Mal, don't you think it would be good if we had some GRENADES?
[/jayne cobb]

[444]

It took awhile, but someone finally mentioned that flash bangs frequently cause a fire. As a firefighter, I have been called to house fires started from flash bangs as well as having been called to stand by when they knew they were going to use them.

[Lupinus]

flashbangs for home defense? I'll pass.

[strambo]

There are OC grenades...basically just an OC can that sprays out of a nozzle until empty. Having one set up somehow outside your safe room that you could activate could be useful. Throwing one in a room with a BG stealing your TV MIGHT be useful. They're legal at least. I can see limited uses for this and it would be a pretty good deterrent. The effect will last longer than a FB, though it will take longer to take effect.

[Firethorn]

I like the idea of OC/tear gas grenades.

Why? I can chuck it into the room and hopefully the unwanted guests will decide to leave, no intervention on my part needed. It's just going to get progressivly worse in that room. I need to go in there I'll just dig out my gas mask. The training filter isn't rated for wargasses anymore, but it should work against OC.

A flashbang might work faster, but like others have said, the distraction only lasts seconds, and has a decent chance of setting the room on fire. It's also regulated as a destructive device. No thanks.

Something like this (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?sku=TAC-101) should work very well, and it's only $28 for 6oz...

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/777/TAC-101.jpg

[chopinbloc]

yeah, i bought a few of those and haven't set one off yet (still waiting for that kegger gone bad). i would like to know if they start spraying immediately or if they spray when you RELEASE the valve. sure would be more useful the second way. there's an ad in the shotgun news all the time for an oc device that's supposed to be used as a burglar deterrent. i imagine it wouldn't be to hard to remotely trigger one, maybe even have one for each room on a separate circuit.

[No_Brakes23]

For the cost involved in obtaining flash-bangs, I'd rather get an ACOG or AN-PVS type gear.

Since I am poor, night sights, flashlights, and plug-in L.E.D night lights all over the house do the trick, (With a little help from the firearms, of course.)

[rustymaggot]

ive had this long time fantasy from many years ago when i played counterstrike in a internet cafe. there was this guy who always flashbanged me over and over in the game. when it got me mad i would imagine that he was in the cafe with me and i imagined how funny it would be to drop a real one down on his keyboard. coffee flyin out of his computer stall, chair fallin backwards into the isle, blackened face and hair all spikey pointed away from the blast like a roadrunner cartoon.......... maybe i have a poor sense of humor.

sometimes i worry about 'ka50'. he acts like andy kaufman.

[jeremywills]

being a long time CSer myself I can appreciate this dream of yours and have had similar thought processes run through my head

I hated team flashies too, very irritating :D

[NukemJim]

Preacherman

Best laugh I've had in YEARS :)

Thank you !!!!!

I was wondering how you were going to respond. I love your response.

NukemJim

[JamisJockey]

Sorry, but you worry me with your narrow perspective.

In close quarter combat you need every single peace of equipment to gain an edge. If your house is full of assault rifle weilding BG's, then you can pull up your Massod's book and hope for the best I suppose. I've read his stuff, too, by the way. And I also play airsoft, including close quarter combat. You just have no idea how hard it is to supress an enemy who's ready to kill you and has means to do so in close quarter combat.


That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Airsoft?
:banghead:
Yeah, the Padre has no idea....
ROFLMMFAO
The only essential piece of equipment is your brain-housing-group.

As the Padre stated, the flashbang's effects wear off quickly. As someone who's been on the recieving end of one, I can tell you that one or two person's couldn't possibly secure a room quickly enough following a flashbang if that room is full of assault rifle weilding BG's.

[pwrtool45]

Heck, Janitor, it's not often that the S&T forum is so entertaining! :D

I'm thinking Monty Python and the Holy Flash-Bang here... :evil:

Ask, and ye shall receive.


LAUNCELOT:
Have we got bows?

ARTHUR:
No.

LAUNCELOT:
We have the Holy Flash Bang.

ARTHUR:
Yes, of course! The Holy Flash Bang of Antioch! 'Tis one of the sacred relics Brother Maynard carries with him! Brother Maynard! Bring up the Holy Flash Bang!

MONKS: [chanting]
Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem.

ARTHUR:
How does it, um-- how does it work?

LAUNCELOT:
I know not, my liege.

ARTHUR:
Consult the Book of Armaments!

BROTHER MAYNARD:
Armaments, chapter two, verses nine to twenty-one.

SECOND BROTHER:
And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. (Unless it is a South African Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to one and a half.) Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Flash Bang of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall wander about quite confused and unable to see. Also, he shalt be a bit singed. Maybe more than a bit, depending on wherest thou threw the Holy Flash Bang of Antioch.'

MAYNARD:
Amen.

KNIGHTS:
Amen.

ARTHUR:
Right!
33140
One!... Two!... Five!

GALAHAD:
Three, sir!

ARTHUR:
Three!

Shamelessly borrowed from this site as well as from my memory:
http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/movies/holy-grail/scene-21.html

[Hawkmoon]

Heck, Janitor, it's not often that the S&T forum is so entertaining! :D

I'm thinking Monty Python and the Holy Flash-Bang here... :evil:
"... and he shall snuff it!"

Possibly the best line ever out of Monty Python. (Either that, or " 'orse? He ain't got no 'orse. He's just got a couple of cocoanuts."

[EDIT]Sorry. I seem to have confused the Holy Flash Bang with the Holy Hand Grenade from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Apologies.

[CAS700850]

Gotta love Preacherman. How many other times here at THR and other boards across the net have you seen someone insulted and come back with a bunch of smilies and Monty Python and the Holy Flashbang?

You lead by example, Preacherman.

Now, if I recall correctly, during the last SWAT seminar I participated in (lecturing on legal issues), the instructor on flashbangs and explosive devices indicated that a flashbang was a less-lethal device, meaning it can kill, but is not intended to do so. So, you're defending your home, and you bascially start chucking grenades around the corners.

First of all, you can kiss much of your property goodbye. Glass is broken, carpet or handwood floors scortched, and the potential for fire is high.

Second, the idea of a flasbang is to disorient an aggressor so that some counter-tactics can be implimented. Do you plan on giving up the high ground, so to speak, so that you can invade a room after "banging" it, and fire a double tap or two into each bad guy?

Third, what do you think that cops are gonna do with you tossing grendaes around? Here's a hint...it's probably gonna hurt, even if you comply.

Fourth, you get sued for wrongful death or personal injury claims. You're standing trial before a group of citizens who learned about guns and such from television. Lawyer tells them you used grenades on his poor unarmed client, leaving him deaf and blind before you shot him. Or, better yet, you used illegal explosives to blow up him client, a poor drug addict not looking to hurt anyone, just looking for some easy money to feed his addiction. "You had all of these guns at your disposal, a phone to call the police, and were safely tucked away in your "safe room". yet you chose to hunt down and execute my client, blowing him up with an explosive deviceisn't that accurate? Aren't guns and bullets deadly enough for you, sir?" Call em crazy, but you'll lose that one.

Hey, Preacherman, thanks for showing us again where THe High Road truly lies.

Bad idea.

[HiWayMan]

Don't let this thread die. I crave more funny. Sadly, however, I feel it's life force draining away.

[Too Many Choices!?]

Muttly!!!! Wow, hadn't seen that guy in years. Flashbangs, yes I want some. NO, I would not use them for HD :uhoh: . EOTWAWKI, now that is a different subject, and in that spot I would rather a frag. Just my o.o2cents from years of VIDEO GAME experience with both, YMMV.

[Jeff White]

I think this has gone on long enough. Dang, I'm away from the computer for a couple days and now we're using illegal explosives in our own homes :uhoh:

In the future we'll discuss the use of devices like this in a strictly military or police context. No more discussions of illegal devices.

ka50,
Yes the police and the military sometimes use airsoft guns to simulate small arms. No, playing airsoft games is not training for combat and little you learn there would be of any use in a real fight.

Jeff