New Orleans Police shoot, kill man


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kage genin
December 27, 2005, 02:48 AM
Link to story including photo (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1444243)
New Orleans Police Shoot, Kill Man
New Orleans Police Shoot and Kill Man Who Allegedly Threatened an Officer With a Knife
By BRETT MARTEL
The Associated Press

NEW ORLEANS - New Orleans police shot and killed a man who they said had threatened an officer with a knife on St. Charles Ave.

A businessman had called police after a confrontation with the 38-year-old local man, whose name was not released because his family had not been notified, said Officer David Adams, a police spokesman.

He said officers repeatedly asked the man to drop the knife, which had a 3-inch blade. They then used pepper spray on him. "Evidently the pepper spray had no effect," Adams said.

He said the man then walked toward an officer, who backed out of the way to avoid being stabbed in the chest.

Adams said he did not know how many officers fired or how many shots were fired. That is under investigation, he said. He said officers determined to have been involved in the shooting will be reassigned pending the outcome of the investigation.

Adams did not discount witness accounts that a half dozen or more shots were fired, but defended officers against suggestions that such a number of shots constituted excessive force.

"You have officers with their lives in danger how many is too many?" Adams said. "You have an officer who had to back out of the way to keep from being stabbed in the chest."

Several bystanders expressed anger that police had killed the man. While Adams spoke to reporters, one onlooker shouted, "Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"

"We're trained, ma'am," Adams responded.

The incident occurred about eight blocks from Lee Circle; police cordoned off both directions of traffic and the wide median.

Phin Percy said he heard a police car, looked down from his father's second-story apartment, and saw a half-dozen officers surrounding a man who was backing up, waving his hands. Percy began recording video.

"The cops kept telling him, 'Lay down. Lay down.' This went on for about three minutes," Percy said.

While he was running downstairs, he said, he heard numerous shots. When he ran out the door, many more officers had arrived and the body was lying against a car.

When he reviewed his videotape, Percy said, he saw a small knife in the man's hand.

A bartender and patron at a nearby bar said they saw the knife before police arrived.

Patron Trey Brokaw said that when he saw the man shortly before the shooting, he looked menacing with the knife in his hand but wasn't in an attacking stance or targeting anyone.

"I didn't see anyone near him," Brokaw said. "It didn't seem like anyone was going to get hurt to me."

Brokaw did not see what happened in the final moments before the shots rang out, however.

"He should have dropped the knife," bartender Chrissy Gross said. "He obviously was not going to comply."

The shooting was the first involving on-duty New Orleans police since Hurricane Katrina damaged large areas of the city and displaced tens of thousands of residents nearly four months ago, Adams said.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Copyright 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures


I'm interested to see how this plays out, esp. considering there was video footage.
Several bystanders expressed anger that police had killed the man. While Adams spoke to reporters, one onlooker shouted, "Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"
Just how many police officers are trained to do knife disarms? That onlooker has been watching too many kung fu movies.

Good shoot? Bad shoot? Good or bad for NOPD?

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aquapong
December 27, 2005, 02:57 AM
From the info given, sounds like a perfectly good shoot to me. NOPD is in hot water already, so unfortunately this will not help things although it sounds like the officers did everything right.

RON in PA
December 27, 2005, 03:12 AM
Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

oneslowgun
December 27, 2005, 03:17 AM
Sorry, this may not be a "PC" response, but if you got yourself so drunk that you can't understand a "Drop the knife" command by the police, and then further advance toward an officer, with the knife in your hand. I just (Without more information) have to go with .40 cal chlorine injection to that particular gene pool.

I'm no champion of SOME of the police, but I tend to judge their reacton to a situation, as I would react to that situation. Given the information at hand, sounds like a good shoot.

I reserve my right to be wrong, and under, or misinformed.

KenpoTex
December 27, 2005, 03:19 AM
If the individual was in fact advancing on an officer with the knife, the officers were fully justified in shooting him.

"Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"Stupidity...Yeah, they probably were trained in knife disarms...for that matter so am I; as are, I'm sure, I'm sure many others on this board. However empty hand knife disarms are only for times when you DON'T have the ability to shoot the guy with the knife.

Adams did not discount witness accounts that a half dozen or more shots were fired, but defended officers against suggestions that such a number of shots constituted excessive force.
Oh brother...yeah, if they stood over his prone body and fired into him multiple times that might be a little excessive. However, I highly doubt that this was the case. Fire 'till the threat is no longer a threat no matter how many rounds it takes. Besides that, do the math. It doesn't say how many officers opened fire but, for the sake of example, let's say that three officers shot the guy. It doesn't take long to put a lot of lead downrange when multiple people are shooting.

Homer
December 27, 2005, 04:41 AM
Yes police are trained to handle a citizen armed with a knife. A knife is cinsidered lethal force and an officer has the right meet that force with an equal force. Most people who are not trained, don't know that an armed individual can travel a min of 21 foot before the officer can realized the threat, make a decision, ready his weapon and neutral the perceived threat. Not a situAtion that I would like to be in as an LEO. And that is not allowing a whole lot of time to make ur decsion!!!

EZ CZ75
December 27, 2005, 04:51 AM
I am sure there are at least a couple of families happy to have their son, brother, father, or whathaveyou safe tonight. Why don't their responses ever make the news. Do we only care about how the bad guy and their families feel?!?:cuss: :banghead: :cuss:

Matthew748
December 27, 2005, 07:23 AM
Based on the article, everything seems OK. It seems as though some of the bystanders are having trouble separating reality from fiction. A 3 inch knife is quite capable of killing or wounding another person.

1911 guy
December 27, 2005, 08:40 AM
Given the info in this article, it was a clean shoot. If I felt the guy with the knife were threatening me I'd shoot, so why tell the cops they've got to get cut before responding? As already mentioned, the bystanders have seen one too many kung fu movies.

tonytulipz
December 27, 2005, 09:08 AM
Given the info in this article, it was a clean shoot. If I felt the guy with the knife were threatening me I'd shoot, so why tell the cops they've got to get cut before responding? As already mentioned, the bystanders have seen one too many kung fu movies.

Ya with NO cops facing national tragedy already and short of officers, should be interesting on how plays out.

They were indeed one of the most corrupt Police Forces before Katrina, along with City hall. So nothing really is BIG News coming from that city ever....

Optical Serenity
December 27, 2005, 01:22 PM
As a police officer, everything in this case seems like a perfectly good shoot. This is the classic person who doesn't obey commands and then advances. Good job to the officers.

raghorn
December 27, 2005, 02:35 PM
If the individual was in fact advancing on an officer with the knife, the officers were fully justified in shooting him.

+1

The last time I checked, "Dying at the hands of a knife-wielding madman" was not listed anywhere in the job description.

jsalcedo
December 27, 2005, 02:41 PM
Yep. the dude got enough warnings. I'm not sure what the controversy is about this shoot except that there is a clear video of it.

tonytulipz
December 27, 2005, 03:18 PM
The video shows the person is either 1. BLIND, 2. on heavy drugs, or 3. severely mentally ill not fearing death.

He had 6-7 officers with guns drawn within 10-15 feet of him...he was just walking like a zombie bumping into the car.

Only sadness would be if he coulda maybe been tazored a couple 5-6 times?

Did anyone here if that WAS an option the officers had?

just curious

Tequila_Sauer
December 27, 2005, 03:28 PM
I just don't understand the logic some people seem to have. So what kind of weapon would the guy need to have for deadly force to be ok to that woman? What if the guy had a giant battleaxe? Is that enough? How about a sword? A gun?

But I thought cops were taught to disarm people with guns, just because a drunk guy pulled a gun on a cop doesn't mean he should return fire!!!! :banghead:


Anyway, seems clear cut to me. As far as tazers go, 2 of my cop friends have told stories on several occasions where they had to tazer a guy several times and even that wasn't enough to incapacitate him. Sometimes, a bullet is the only kind of talking a perp will listen to.

Jbar4Ranch
December 27, 2005, 03:51 PM
I never saw where the knife posed any immediate life-threatening problems. I agree he should have dropped it and hit the ground as ordered, but this is definitely one situation where a shot or two to one or both legs would have put him down and ended the threat. He wasn't dancing around none too rapidly, not trying to hide, flee, or attack, and was plenty close enough. "Shoot him in the arm/leg" is something that just isn't practical most of the time, but the range involved in this case should have made it a no-brainer. Like previously mentioned, it appears to be only fifteen feet or so.

Janitor
December 27, 2005, 03:58 PM
LEOs did the right thing. At least as far as the article is concerned.

I'm fairly sure that there's a captain down there who would rather be dealing with this fallout than calling the widow of one of his people.

Shot to the leg is just begging for other troubles, not the least of which is that you haven't yet ended any deadly threat.
-

ken grant
December 27, 2005, 04:00 PM
You shoot at the biggest part which means COM,even then a lot of shots miss

XDn00b101
December 27, 2005, 04:03 PM
I wonder what caliber they where using, and why it took "several" shots to end it? Well... He was a big guy.

rock jock
December 27, 2005, 04:20 PM
This guy died from a disease - willful stupidity.

matis
December 27, 2005, 04:31 PM
The cop should have just stood there and taken the knife.

I mean, the perp was probably from a deprived background, wasn't he?




matis

Standing Wolf
December 27, 2005, 05:33 PM
Evidently the pepper spray had no effect...

It often doesn't, especially when the criminal is drunk and/or high and/or crazy.

Steve in PA
December 27, 2005, 05:47 PM
I never saw where the knife posed any immediate life-threatening problems. I agree he should have dropped it and hit the ground as ordered, but this is definitely one situation where a shot or two to one or both legs would have put him down and ended the threat. He wasn't dancing around none too rapidly, not trying to hide, flee, or attack, and was plenty close enough. "Shoot him in the arm/leg" is something that just isn't practical most of the time, but the range involved in this case should have made it a no-brainer. Like previously mentioned, it appears to be only fifteen feet or so.


Your kidding right? :banghead:

MechAg94
December 27, 2005, 06:26 PM
I don't have a problem with the shoot. It would have been nice to see if a tazor could have worked, but it might not have. The other problem with shooting to wound is the higher likelyhood of hitting bystanders. That one picture I see shows the camera practically looking up the muzzles of a couple of the pistols.

Optical Serenity
December 27, 2005, 06:32 PM
Personally I have seen where tasers are useless. Those people who pepper spray will not affect, I've watched get up right away after a taser shot.

These guys did just as they are trained, and its the right way to fix this situation. There is no better way to do it than two shots to the chest and one to the head. You fire to end the threat, as they did.

Why is it everyone wants to question the law enforcement validity to bring order, rather than why this lunatic had a knife and did not obey the commands? The only person that got hurt was the wierdo nut job probably not on his prozac? Great job to the men in blue.

C96
December 27, 2005, 06:43 PM
NOLA PD does not carry tazers. Not an option for them.

rosco_the_dog
December 27, 2005, 07:49 PM
I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy.

nfl1990
December 27, 2005, 08:24 PM
If you watch the video you see a few things not mentioned in the article: there were about 10 police officers w/ 7 of them having cover behind a car, all having pistols drawn and aimed, and the man while holding a knife is not in a threatening posture and even tried to walk away but another officer cut him off.

tonytulipz
December 27, 2005, 09:17 PM
I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy.

I agree, and would have wished it to be that way. When Police draw their guns they never do so in the intent to wound though. It is a practice that goes with the job. When they draw their guns they mean business. This person did not understand that and thats why its sad.

They had no Tazer obviously. I have been to NO. It use to be a neat place, more like an American Amsterdam but with rules that try to be enforced.

I doubt this town will ever be the same. The people that left from Katrina will prolly stay in Texas or OK or Miss. There is nothing left of that area but damage.

The police their have got to be on edge just from all that has happend, throw in stuff like this and there is ZERO TOLERANCE.

Janitor
December 27, 2005, 09:40 PM
When Police draw their guns they never do so in the intent to wound though.
And neither should you or I. If the situation does not require deadly force, leave it in the leather.
-

tonytulipz
December 27, 2005, 09:43 PM
And neither should you or I. If the situation does not require deadly force, leave it in the leather.
-

Exactly, if I shoot someone, when the Police come I better have wet running down my leg and have been scared for my life.:what: :what:

NineseveN
December 27, 2005, 09:44 PM
So far sounds like a necessary shoot.

rosco_the_dog
December 27, 2005, 09:45 PM
They showed him backing up while the police with guns pointed, moving forward. The news channel stopped the video before he reportedly lunged at them.

There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him.

I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot.

tonytulipz
December 27, 2005, 10:17 PM
They showed him backing up while the police with guns pointed, moving forward. The news channel stopped the video before he reportedly lunged at them.

There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him.

I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot.

It may seem like that, but its the last thing ANY MAN should wanna do is take anothers life. Cops and GI's that do kill, have the highest Alcohol, divorce rate, quiting job, and suicide rate in this country.

Jbar4Ranch
December 27, 2005, 10:44 PM
Your kidding right? :banghead:
Um, no. I could certainly hit hit a leg at 10-15 feet, repeatedly, and wouldn't even need to sight. When the police draw and say HIT THE GROUND, you damn well better do it, but a more or less stationary target at only three or four paces? Apparently, policy says shoot to kill, and common sense is removed from the formula.

saspic
December 27, 2005, 11:50 PM
Cool, then you could twirl the gun on your finger and blow the smoke away from the muzzle.

Jbar4Ranch
December 27, 2005, 11:56 PM
Um... well, yes, I'm also certainly capable of that too... but what would be the point of it?

The shooting was justified, but the killing wasn't necessary. Once again, let me say, when the police draw and say HIT THE GROUND, you damn well better do it.

twency
December 28, 2005, 12:03 AM
Apparently, policy says shoot to kill, and common sense is removed from the formula.

So, common sense says it's a good idea to take potshots at the moving legs of a guy lunging with a knife towards officers who have given him plenty of warning?

Umm, no.

BANNED FROM GLOCK TALK, 5-28-04!

Lemme guess. You were accused of being a troll?

_________________
-twency

Jbar4Ranch
December 28, 2005, 12:07 AM
No, I was one of the very first members. I had a bad experience with an ex wife who liked to cyber stalk me, and Eric thought it best to ban both parties rather than take sides.

Are you two serious or just being facetious?

goose
December 28, 2005, 12:17 AM
Approx. 3 yrs ago, a man in MPLS, Minn was waving a machette in public. The cops were called and told him to drop it. After a few warnings, the cops blew him away. There were several pictures in the paper showing the man before he was killed and the cop cars near him. My question! Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him......a broken leg, a few broken ribs? To me til the day I die, I considered this action murder.

stevelyn
December 28, 2005, 12:22 AM
The shooting was justified, but the killing wasn't necessary.

How so? And why do you think they call it deadly force? Perhaps because being shot puts one at high risk of dying?

Uh, no, I could hit a leg 10 to 15 ft, repeatedly and wouldn't even need to sight.

Them's some pretty powerful words:rolleyes: spoken to a rather skeptical audience, especially coming from someone who hasn't cited their credentials as to how they can pull off such fantastic feat during an adrenalin dump over those us who've either had training or are trainers ourselves, and who make no such similar claims ourselves.......all without using sights. :scrutiny:

From the info given in the story, sounds like a good shoot to me.:cool:

tonytulipz
December 28, 2005, 12:26 AM
Approx. 3 yrs ago, a man in MPLS, Minn was waving a machette in public. The cops were called and told him to drop it. After a few warnings, the cops blew him away. There were several pictures in the paper showing the man before he was killed and the cop cars near him. My question! Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him......a broken leg, a few broken ribs? To me til the day I die, I considered this action murder.


I remember that story well. He was also mentally ill. They gave him much more time then the NO man too. It was highly publicized and I think they did Tazer him also. Again.....glad I dont have to make those decisions.

CGofMP
December 28, 2005, 12:26 AM
Let's face it the cops screwed up!!

From the reports I heard a cop had to move out of the way as the suspect was allegedly about to stab one of them in the chest with his 'less than a gun' weapon.

I'm sorry, but if a cop had to MOVE to keep from being sliced and diced then the cops screwed up! The suspect should never have been allowed to get that close in the first place!

They shoulda busted the caps they did on this guy before he ever got close enough to a cop to make the cop move away from the knife. I say again - you are right - the cops screwed up! But not in the way JB and RTD seem to think they did. Basically as police they showed too much restraint.

Leg shots are for Dirty Harry and other fake cowboys in the movies... there are too many things that can and will go wrong when you start playing the Annie Oakley game when your body is doing a full adrenaline dump and you have innocent bystanders downrange. If its important enough to pull the trigger for then its important enough to shoot to stop in the most efficient and quickest manner possible. That means center of mass and that may mean somone wielding a knife buys it. So be it.

I am no fan of the NO PD from all I hear I could never work for them, too dirty.. but that does notmean that they need to put themselves in mortal danger as police.

stevelyn
December 28, 2005, 12:48 AM
Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him?

Still deadly force. Just a bigger bullet on wheels.:rolleyes:

Jbar4Ranch
December 28, 2005, 12:56 AM
They could have just pointed off behind him somewhere and yelled, "Hey look, there goes Elvis!" and tackled him when he turned to look. :D

No matter how the situation was handled, someone would be saying, "Why didn't they do this..." or "Why did they have to do that..." Whether it's physical or just PR, a situation like this is lose/lose for LE. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. When they draw and say "HIT THE GROUND"... do what they say, and there's no problem.

Cousin Mike
December 28, 2005, 01:17 AM
Just figured I'd chime in w/my $0.02:

I remember stopping by the police station with my uncle (who was an LEO for over 20 years) when I was a child. I can't remember why I was there, but I remember noticing a man-sized target on the wall of one of the officers he introduced me to. The X was shot out of the middle of the target, which at the time I didn't understand. It looked like a weird place to shoot a person in my young mind (I might have been 6 when this happened), so I inquired as to why they aimed at peoples stomachs.

The officer explained that when they train, they shoot to stop the threat, and that's the best place to aim to stop someone. I asked her why they didn't just shoot for the head, and her reply was something to the effect of:

"Because that's shooting to kill. We shoot to stop."

Lots of people survive being shot COM. Lots of others don't. I don't think shooting COM is really trying to kill, and although I haven't seen the video of the shooting, sounds like a clean shoot to me.

sfhogman
December 28, 2005, 01:46 AM
To me, this looks like a possible suicide by cop. Do any LEOS on the board come away thinking that might be possible?

hso
December 28, 2005, 02:19 AM
"Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"

The training involves the use of pepper spray and/or Taser, but if niether of those are effective (or available) then the only safe way to deal with a knife wielding attacker that has failed to be persuaded to drop the knife is to shoot them Center Of Mass. I'm trained in using a knife and I can tell you that there is nothing about a knife that is less dangerous than a handgun.

If you do not shoot COM and shoot at the arm or leg you most probably will miss. These are moving targes that are considerably smaller than the body. This puts others in danger because that bullet is now moving beyond the intended target and totally out of anyone's control endangering bystanders dozens of yards away and at nearly any angle to the line of fire. If you are exceedingly lucky and do hit the arm or leg you most probably will not get a disabling wound. The knife wielder is not calm and rational and will be flooded with adrenaline. You will be dealing now with a wounded person who is far more agitated than a moment before and more likely to press the attack forcing you to shoot COM. TV and movies don't reflect real life firearms conflicts any more than they do how pretty your neighbors are.

The only rational protocol for dealing with a knife attack where pepper spray or taser doesn't work is to shoot to stop the attacker and the only effective way to do that with a handgun is to shoot COM.

Powderman
December 28, 2005, 02:55 AM
Ho-kay...here we go:

1. "Are your officers not trained to disarm a man with a knife without using lethal force?"

I'll say this as delicately as I can. Get real, fella! Have you ever tried to disarm someone with a knife, outside of a dojo? It gets ugly REAL fast.

You WILL be sliced. You WILL be cut, and you WILL be cut badly. I don't give a flying fart about how effective someone says this "technique" is or is not, here is the truth: If you face someone with a knife, and you decide to take them on, count on serious injury--TO YOURSELF.

2. "I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy."

Do you carry a gun? Have you even FIRED a gun? No slam intended, fella, but this sounds like the thing I'd expect to hear from a 14 year old who's been playing too much Rainbow Six.

First of all, a knife is a lethal weapon, able to cause death or serious bodily harm. If one is deployed against you, deadly force is authorized and justified in every State in the Union. You use the firearm of your choice, placing aimed shots center of mass of the exposed target until the assailant stops whatever they're doing that put you in danger.

Shots to the legs will stop someone? Please don't make me laugh. They MIGHT--then, again, they might NOT. Are you willing to bet your life on it?

Talk to some combat vets who suffered leg wounds. A good portion will probably tell you that they DID NOT EVEN FEEL THE WOUND UNTIL THE FIGHT WAS OVER.

3. "Approx. 3 yrs ago, a man in MPLS, Minn was waving a machette in public. The cops were called and told him to drop it. After a few warnings, the cops blew him away. There were several pictures in the paper showing the man before he was killed and the cop cars near him. My question! Why didn't a cop drive a patrol car and hit him......a broken leg, a few broken ribs? To me til the day I die, I considered this action murder. "

Ever heard of the Tueller drill? Read up on it, then tell me how the poor machetero did not have to die.

4. "There was an incident a year or two ago in Toronto where an armed gunman had a women held hostage outside a subway terminal. A police sniper shot the gun out of the guy's hand and then the cops moved in to arrest him. They could have easily have taken a head shot at him."

Not to criticize my brothers in the Great White North too much, but I think they were WAY too concerned with the perp's welfare.

I am one of my Department's precision riflemen. If there is a hostage situation and I have the OK to engage, you can bet I'll turn into a thoracic surgeon--the perp will receive a 168 grain .308 caliber telegram, center of mass.

If the head is the only thing that is exposed, so be it.

You DON'T get funny and try to shoot a gun out of someone's hand. Ever seen what happens when a bullet hits steel? All kinds of commotion, I guarantee. NOT the thing to have happen next to a hostage's head.

5. "I just think taking that kill shot should be a very last resort. It seems like for some LE officers (US in particular), they're just itching for a reason to shoot. "

Thanks for the slam, fella. It's really appreciated, and I am SO enlightened to know that you think of us as a bunch of murdering thugs. :banghead: :fire: :fire:

6. Them's some pretty powerful words spoken to a rather skeptical audience, especially coming from someone who hasn't cited their credentials as to how they can pull off such fantastic feat during an adrenalin dump over those us who've either had training or are trainers ourselves, and who make no such similar claims ourselves.......all without using sights.


One of the most credible and sensible posts in the entire thread.

I invite ANY of our Rambos who have posted about how bad a job the cops did in this scenario to post your curriculum vitae, citing your experience in these situations. If you have no such experience, let me lay it out for you.


We are chosen out of many, many applicants, screened carefully and selected after a process that can take as long as a year and a half or even more to complete.

We fill many hats during our shift--watchman, teacher, counselor, first responder, public relations contact, secretary, minister or friend.

One of the hats we have to wear sometimes is that of bodyguard--to protect you, the person who lives in our patrol area from those who would do you harm.

In some cases, and at some times, some people decide to break the law. When we come to take them into custody to answer to you--the peaceful resident--for breaching the peace with their actions, some of them attempt to hurt us in the cause of escaping or resisting lawful arrest.

In that case, the law has given us the tools and the authority to cause great bodily harm, even unto death--if needed--to ensure that you, the peaceful resident of our patrol area can sleep safely, play with your children and enjoy your homes, property and belongings without fear.

DON'T second guess us or Monday-morning quarterback--especially when you obviously don't even have the experience--much less the credentials--to critique our actions. :mad: :fire: :fire:

Rant off.

fjolnirsson
December 28, 2005, 03:10 AM
You WILL be sliced. You WILL be cut, and you WILL be cut badly. I don't give a flying fart about how effective someone says this "technique" is or is not, here is the truth: If you face someone with a knife, and you decide to take them on, count on serious injury--TO YOURSELF.

*off topic*
Nonsense. I've heard this repeated over and over, in so many different places. It's defeatist thinking. I've done disarms, in real life, 4 times. It is possible to do it without being harmed. Granted, I did get scratched, once. I am by no means, Bruce Lee, either. Sorry, this statement is a pet peeve of mine. It is best to accept the high probability of injury, should you attempt it. *back on topic*

Bearing that in mind, (but without seeing the video) I say good shoot. Based on simple situational facts presented here, I'd shoot the guy myself. I'm no longer as young and reckless as I once was, and I no longer go anywhere unarmed.
Police officers are expected to take certain risks when they decide to take the job. That doesn't mean volunteering to be somebody's pincushion. I'd like to see the folks in the article who were criticizing, do a better job. I think Powderman covered that part better than I could, though.:D

TrapdoorBilly
December 28, 2005, 05:38 AM
Good shoot? Bad shoot?

As we currently know the facts, Good shoot.

Good or bad for NOPD?

Doesn't really matter.

Camp David
December 28, 2005, 10:50 AM
I just saw it on the news. No shortage of officers present. A couple of shots to the legs would have ended that situation without having to kill the guy.

I am saddened by this episode and it marks kind of a turning point for me... I previously supported our law enforcement but this sort of thing gives me great pause...

I am reading from the latest Fox News account of this shooting (murder):
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179947,00.html

Note highlighted parts below...

"...after allegedly lunging at police with a 3-inch blade..."

"...was caught on videotape that shows about a dozen officers surrounding him..."

"The officers are trained to treat knife attacks as deadly force and are not schooled in disarming suspects..."

"...three officers who fired nine rounds on Hayes..."

This is not law enforcement. This is absurd. It is also murder.

3 inch knife? Not trained to disarm? Nine shots?

Murder.

twency
December 28, 2005, 10:57 AM
Murder.
Slander.

______________
-twency

kage genin
December 28, 2005, 12:55 PM
"...after allegedly lunging at police with a 3-inch blade..."

I can think of a number of points on the human body where a 3-inch blade stuck in would be lethal.

"...was caught on videotape that shows about a dozen officers surrounding him..."

Officers arrive on scene to find others arrived at the same time. You expect them to do "rock paper scissors" to decide who stays and who leaves?

"The officers are trained to treat knife attacks as deadly force and are not schooled in disarming suspects..."

knife attacks ARE deadly... and the suspect was ultimately disarmed

"...three officers who fired nine rounds on Hayes..."
So each firing officer shot three rounds. That sounds like "excessive force"... I mean the movies say that one shot is all it takes to kill a person instantly. One shot to the chest and they just look skywards and plop down dead, right?
I suppose the 'proper' thing for the officers to have done was again do "rock paper scissors" do decide who fires the single incapacitating shot to the leg?

Camp David
December 28, 2005, 01:13 PM
I suppose the 'proper' thing for the officers to have done was again do "rock paper scissors" do decide who fires the single incapacitating shot to the leg?

No. Subdue the man, arrest him, and take him to jail, like law enforcement officers have been doing for generations. Not fatally shoot him nine times because of a pocket knife! :rolleyes:

If a dozen alleged officers can't subdue a man with a pocket knife, we have proof positive that law enforcement is totally incompetent! That's what scares me! Why didn't they just use a hand-grenade on the man?????

There is time to honor law enforement. And there are times, like this, to scorn them. This is one of those times.

I am not defending the victim in this case. However, the victim of such imcompetent law enforcement is indeed society as a whole. These dozen alleged policement deserve neither our respect or commedation. They, in fact, deserve spit. They are a liability for society. It is not surprising that many of their brothers in arms in New Orleans abandoned their posts during Katrina...

If I was Chief of New Orleans Police I would fire such officers for gross dereliction of duty and utter incompetence.... there again, that may me solution for entire New Orleans police force as recent events have borne out!

Sorry... I strongly support local law enforcement... this is not it. Not by a long shot!

twency
December 28, 2005, 01:24 PM
If a dozen alleged officers can't subdue a man with a pocket knife, we have proof positive that law enforcement is totally incompetent! That's what scares me! Why didn't they just use a hand-grenade on the man????? The "alleged officers" :rolleyes: did subdue him, in the manner they were taught, which is consistent with a manner taught to law enforcement officers across the country. Is your beef with these officers, or their training?

Hand grenade? Nice attempt at reductio ad absurdum, but obviously not a serious or helpful suggestion. Each officer that fired his weapon (an average of three shots per officer, not exactly emptying the mag) was using his training on how to stop a lethal threat through the use of lethal force. Again, is your problem with the officers, or their training? If you say "both", please explain.

However, the victim of such imcompetent law enforcement is indeed society as a whole. These dozen alleged policement deserve neither our respect or commedation. They, in fact, deserve spit. They are a liability for society. It is not surprising that many of their brothers in arms in New Orleans abandoned their posts during Katrina...

Spit? I imagine they'd rather you spit on them, than take a 3 inch knife in the femoral artery, or the jugular. Based on the information which has been reported, I support them in their actions. I reserve the right to change my opinion if other credible evidence arises, but as reported, these guys did their jobs in the way they were supposed to.
____________
-twency

Camp David
December 28, 2005, 01:44 PM
The "alleged officers" :rolleyes: did subdue him
They killed him! Because they were scared of a pocketkife.. a small pocketknife!

...on how to stop a lethal threaty
That post is more that three inches...;)

A small pocket knife! Glad to hear we have cowards with a badge!

Rock45
December 28, 2005, 01:47 PM
Let me get this straight...rather than send this POS straight to the crapper where he belongs, many of you would prefer that LE risk injury or worse so that we can house him, give him medical attention, and feed him until such time that we get the opportunity to pay him to sue the officers involved in the shooting that rendered him crippled for life.

I don't care how you spend your money, but let's be a little more discriminating how we spend mine, OK?

By the way,

Good Shoot, Keep up the Good Work!

Bryan

Powderman
December 28, 2005, 02:00 PM
They killed him! Because they were scared of a pocketkife.. a small pocketknife!


That post is more that three inches...;)

A small pocket knife! Glad to hear we have cowards with a badge!

I will refer you to two members of this board, just based on what I have read from their postings.

Hso and fjolnirsson, to be exact. Tell you what, here's a little scenario for you. As a matter of fact, you don't have to use these two--just head to any competent martial arts instructor--preferably one with a background in arnis.

You get about six of your best friends, in good physical shape.

Hand the instructor a magic marker.

You--and your friend's job--is to "disarm" the instructor--take the magic marker from him.

The instructor's job will be to "stab" you with the marker--mark each of you as many times as possible before he is disarmed.

When you are finished, count the marks left by the marker on each other.

Now imagine that each of those marks are slashes, avulsions and cuts from a Buck 110 folder, honed nice and sharp. By the way, the blade is 3 inches long.

Nuff said.

Camp David
December 28, 2005, 02:14 PM
...here's a little scenario for you....Nuff said.

If not one of the twelve New Orleans law enforcement officers could shoot his handgun accurately enough to disable/disarm the subject without killing him, they shouldn't be issued a handgun at all... they were six feet away for God's sake!

And as far as your scenario... basic training in the Armed Forces has a similiar test which each recruit private, myself included, was trained to deal with. We did, without arms of any kind!

Disabling a subject is basic law enforcement 101.

Sorry... I've throught this through and the actions by the officers make no sense whatsoever! 9 shots? Three inch knife? Dead subject?

Where is the law enforcement and police protection in that?

WHAT'S NEXT: TEN ALLEGED POLICE GUN DOWN YOUNGSTER WITH RUBBER BAND? FIVE ALLEGED POLICE BLAST OLD LADY WITH CANE? TWO ALLEGED POLICE EMPTY THEIR CLIPS AT CAT STUCK IN TREE?

Proportional Response! A subject covered in detail in law enforcment training and a subject these New Orleans law enforcement cowards failed!

migoi
December 28, 2005, 02:30 PM
Place a 12 foot long 2X4 on the sidewalk and the overwhelming majority of people would have zero problem walking its length without hesitation. Ask them to walk that same distance on a 4" beam slung off the side of the top of a 40 story building (with no safety devices) and very few would even attempt it. Of those that did, a goodly portion wouldn't make it all the way across.

I can put holes in a paper target all day long at the distances talked about in this instance and the end result could easily be covered by the average man's thigh. Of course in those instances I'm not moving, the target's not moving, I'm not having to worry about an ever changing "know what is beyond your target" parameter, and I've never had to do so right after the target attempted to slice and dice me.

As far as the nine rounds... if I am ever confronted by a person with a knife, who has attempted to use it, is unresponsive to my verbal commands to cease, and seems to be unaffected by pepper spray...I'm thinking there is a good likelihood I'll be using up nine rounds all by myself.

migoi

Raph84
December 28, 2005, 02:34 PM
Where do you draw the line between nuisance and life threatening. Alot of people say .22 is not a reliable caliber for incapacitation...so maybe we should make cops disarm a suspect rather than shoot if he has a small caliber handgun also.

I have my issues with misuse of authority, but this is not at all an example of that. A few officers made a rational decision that the situation could not be de-escalated and fired their weapons the way they were trained.

In a perfect world where cops are invulnerable to attack maybee they could have went to a billy club. Unfortunatley we do not live in that world.

If I were put in the position of a large man coming at me with a knife (even if I do have 12 friends backing me up) I am going to fire unless I and my friends can safely retreat. The cops don't have that option. They ended the threat.

Tequila_Sauer
December 28, 2005, 02:35 PM
I'm getting so sick of people who regard police officers as some kind of ninja with special forces training and zero emotion or feeling.

These guys are the same as you and I. They make rational decisions just like the rest of us. When they see a man with a knife and he isn't listening to reason, orders, or threats, they do the same thing everyone else would do. They think "Oh my God, am I going to have to shoot this man? I have a family, I can't jeopardize my life, what if he has a family too?"

I grew up with 3 guys who became LEOs. They're the same guys now that they were at 14 when we were eating tacos in the lunch cafeteria talking about Super Nintendo games. If they're ever in that situation, I would hope they go COM, NOT a target that is maybe 3 inches in diameter from 15 feet in a tense situation.

If I were in that situation, I would've done the same. Not to sound selfish, but I'm not risking my life so some scumbag who can't listen can keep his own. They're human first, officers second (or third or fourth).

twency
December 28, 2005, 03:32 PM
Proportional Response! A subject covered in detail in law enforcment training and a subject these New Orleans law enforcement cowards failed!
So, do I take it that your answer to my previous question about whether the fault lay with the officers or the training, is that the officers were at fault?

If so, I must disagree.

I believe if you ask 100 randomly chosen law enforcement instructors from around the country whether this was a case of meeting lethal force with lethal force, better than 99 of them will answer that this was indeed a proportional response. If you don't like policy, try to have it changed. Don't fault officers for carrying out their training.

(And by the way, it's not exactly the high road to call these guys cowards, "alleged officers", say you want to spit on them, etc. Are you just trying to be provocative?)
_____________
-twency

NineseveN
December 28, 2005, 03:48 PM
And as far as your scenario... basic training in the Armed Forces has a similiar test which each recruit private, myself included, was trained to deal with. We did, without arms of any kind!


So you're saying that the Army/Navy/Air Force or Marines trained you and every private in the fool proof way to disarm a knife-wielding attacker without getting harmed? Has anyone else in the service had this training?

BTW, if that man was threatening you or your family with that little 3" knife, would you shoot or would you try to disarm him with your bare hands and keep your gun on your hip?

Camp David
December 28, 2005, 03:48 PM
(And by the way, it's not exactly the high road to call these guys cowards, "alleged officers", say you want to spit on them, etc. Are you just trying to be provocative?)

More than most, I support law enforcement and LEOs... I was among their ranks in a limited capacity 20 years ago in another state... I have definitive feelings on proportional response... one of the things law enforcement officers are trained to do is protect citizens, even from themselves! Numerous examples of such other officers I was familiar with faced; one LEO, a deputy sheriff, even disarmed a drunk college student armed with a three-foot katana sword in a parking lot! The deputy didn't even pull his pistol from his holster but instead used a baton and his training! Another example I recall was a middle-aged guy outside a bar with a set of numchucks that resisted arrest: he was disarmed by two officers. No shot fired.

I regret if my condemnation of these New Orleans officers upsets you but, in my opinion, they deserve it. As I said, there have been numerous examples, over the last few months, of New Orleans Police being wholefully untrained and unfit to serve.

Other jurisdictions put heavy emphasis upon police training; which includes proportional response and physical disarming techniques. There is a reason for such training!

I respect the badge and respect all legitimate LEO's as they often have to face situations which invariably require split second decisions. Most react with honor to the profession. I just don't see that in this particular instance, as I have elaborated upon...

BTW, if that man was threatening you or your family with that little 3" knife, would you shoot or would you try to disarm him with your bare hands and keep your gun on your hip?I think most here will admit a big difference between one-on-one encounters in the home setting and a crazy nut against a dozen-police in a public parking lot! C'mon.....

migoi
December 28, 2005, 04:08 PM
in the two encounters if the proposed solution to the situation is for one person to shoot the bad guy in the leg from a distance of six feet. The homeowner simply waits until the bad guy is six feet away and the whamo blamo, problem solved.

Size of the wager.

migoi

Beav
December 28, 2005, 04:10 PM
suicide by cop, if he didn't want to be blasted he would have dropped the knife.

CGofMP
December 28, 2005, 04:13 PM
Powderman, you and I were mostly on the same page up till this point:

DON'T second guess us or Monday-morning quarterback--especially when you obviously don't even have the experience--much less the credentials--to critique our actions

The public has the right and indeed I say the DUTY to Monday morning quarterback ALL actions of the police department. This is part of how we stay a republic. The danger of never second guessing the Police is that they will become an arm of the state accountable only to whoever is in power at the time. If that person or persons happen to have fascist or tyrnaical aims, well the police become nothing more than a politcal power arm of the state and NOT fellow citizens.

Who watches the watchers was the title of a book written before community policing was the vogue term. The truth of the matter is we all must. Cops are no better than the citizenry they are chosen from. That is to say they are civilians doing a job, they are us and they need to welcome the input and critique of their fellow citizens. Like any group there will be vocal fools who think that every cop action is wrong and that every shooting could have been handled differently. So be it. This is the price of having a tough job where power must be balanced with full accountability.

On the other hand we have [rule breaking word deleted before posting] of the kind that [name deleted before posting] is providing to us. The idea that a man threatening people with a knife should be given a pass - especially after allegedly lunging for an officer's chest with said knife is flat out insane. I was about to bring up the magic marker suggestion that another poster made only instead of a magic marker you use a thin piece of that rubbery styrofoam dipped in paint. Unlike a magic marker you have a lot more surface area than a 1/4 inch tip. Many knives have dual edges. Unless you are VERY well trained and luck is on your side you WILL get 'cut'. Bring along friends, I guarantee many of you will get marked. Now look at where you got marked, imagine that going down 1/2 or 3/4 inch.. any serious blood vessels below? Yea.. thought so. Not to mention, we dont pay cops to be hurt, we pay them to keep us from getting hurt. Sometimes that means they have to hutrt or kill the mean naughty bad guys. boo hoo.

9 rounds fired by 3 officers is not excessive if the rounds were pretty evenly spaced between shooters. Cops are taught to shoot until the threat is over (usually the suspect hitting the ground). Given the time it would take an officer to pop off three rounds per It is easy to see how they could have fired three rounds each very rapidly.

I will not start the 45 vs 9mm debate here but in one of the officer survival books (I think by by Remsburg) I remember seeing a morge photo of a suspect who did not respond to some ungodly number of rounds taken (like 26 or 32?!?) fired from 9mm caliber handguns. I think they finally cancelled his ticket with a 12 gague.

A 3 inch knife IS deadly force. It can legally and morally be met with deadly force in return. It was allegedly deployed and reportedly used to try to hurt or kill an officer. You do not have to stab to kill... while puncturing the heart with a 29 inch sword is gonna kill someone, there is a certain segment of folks skilled with knives that believe that SLICING is more likely to be effective (Matt Braun) as you can get plenty of deadly wounds on an opponent and cause him to bleed to death with any ONE of them.

If someone breaks into your home at night and advances on you with a paultry 3 inch blade, are you gonna grab the handgun by your bedside and do what needs doing or are you gonna asses the blade length, determine its 'only' a Buck Model 112 and then do your ninja moves?

Like any cop, if you have a brain in your head, you will likely determine that this is indeed a deadly situation, the suspect presents a clear and present credible deadly threat, intends on maiming or killing you, and you will take the shot. Oh and all of this has to happen within seconds.

Monday morning quarterbacking, while needed is not always gonna have the element of common sense from those who participate in it.

rosco_the_dog
December 28, 2005, 04:41 PM
First off, I know LE is a tough, stressfull job. I applaud them for keeping the community safe.
The LEO escalated the situation by closing in on the guy until he had nowhere to go but forward, and what do you do with a guy with a knife comming toward you..?
I mentioned shooting at the guys leg, but after rethinking this scenario, that would have been a bad idea. Once that first leg shot was fired, it would have quickly triggered a hail of body shots by the others.

They mentioned pepper spray was used but it was ineffective. Does this mean he was temporarily blinded but still did not drop the knife, or he was immune to he pepper spray?

Tequila_Sauer
December 28, 2005, 04:52 PM
I've always found pepper spray to be a strange method of "incapacitation." It just seems to do nothing other than piss the perp off, unless the perp wasn't intending to harm the LEO in the first place, in which case, maybe they shouldn't have been sprayed at all.

I've seen separate occasions where LEOs-in training had to get sprayed with that stuff and, after getting sprayed, they performed mock arrest operations just to make sure they could function properly. Even with the more potent spray, the majority of the officers sprayed had full functionality, they just look "inconvenienced" by the pain.

migoi
December 28, 2005, 05:13 PM
when you buy pepper spray you are required to be "trained" in it's use by the retailer. The training is very minimal and mainly consists of warning you about spraying into the wind, the ease with which the hand directing the stream can be deflected, and to not leave it in your car because the summer temperatures here can make it explode (making you want to drive with your head out your window for a while).

The person briefing me also threw in the fact that pepper spray is little more than a way to interrupt the aggressor's OODA Loop*. It should always be accompanied with some other defensive tactic (running away at high speed for instance) and can only be counted on to help you shift to an active rather than reactive role.

* to avoid the questions: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. Lots of info out on the net and a very useful concept to keep in your brain pan.

migoi

NineseveN
December 28, 2005, 05:32 PM
I think most here will admit a big difference between one-on-one encounters in the home setting and a crazy nut against a dozen-police in a public parking lot! C'mon.....


You have twelve officers and a suspect with a weapon. The officers are armed with the handguns. You advocate that at least one of those officers get into harm’s way by physically trying to disarm the knife-wielder. Congratulations, you've just done three things:

1. You've just given the suspect a potential hostage if the disarm goes wrong or does not work, possibly an injured hostage at that.

2. You've just rendered one of the twelve officer's firearms obsolete. He either had to put it in his holster to approach the suspect (possibly giving the perp a weapon with which to escalate the situation and shoot people) or leave it in his car. So we're down to 11 officers, which is enough, right? They all have guns, right?

3. Wrong, putting the disarming officer into the potential kill-zone just rendered every single firearm in the hands of the police officers useless. If things go wrong, they cannot take a shot without possibly killing the officer you so bravely sent into the fray from behind your keyboard.


If the shoot played out like it did, the best case is that the perp gives up; the worst case is that the perp dies.

If the shoot goes your way, best case is the perp gives up or is disarmed without incident...worst case is at least one officer wounded, possibly dead, and the perp has a gun, maybe add a few more wounded or dead police officers and eventually a dead suspect. This is why officers are trained to answer deadly force with deadly force.

In the home, it's no different; you never, ever, ever physically confront an intruder who has a weapon unless you have zero options and no weapon. If you have a firearm, you command them to leave or lie down, then you shoot if they do not listen.

buzz_knox
December 28, 2005, 05:56 PM
I was going to state my belief that the NOPD acted in a reasonable manner. A knife is deadly force and in the absence of a less-lethal means of stopping the individual (pepper spray having failed), use of deadly force was most likely the necessary response.

But since I don't have the qualifications to "Monday morning quarterback" the officers, I suppose I should just withhold any comment, whether in support or opposition of the officers.

twency
December 28, 2005, 07:40 PM
The LEO escalated the situation by closing in on the guy until he had nowhere to go but forward, and what do you do with a guy with a knife comming toward you..?Err, umm, what?

The officers escalated the situation? They met force with force.

The guy had nowhere to go? GOOD!

That the guy had no other (life-preserving) alternative to getting on the ground without the knife in his hand means the officers were doing there job. Why should the police have given the guy someplace to retreat to? If he retreated he could have sought cover or concealment, he might have taken a hostage, or he could have gotten away entirely.

I absolutely agree with CGofMP's point that "watching the watchers" is necessary and right. I also think it's pretty clear to most reasonable people that the watchers did the right thing. And no, I'm not calling those I disagree with unreasonable. I'm attempting to apply the "Reasonable Person" (formerly Reasonable Man) standard found in many legal tests. I think the (hypothetical, theoretical, admittedly fictional) "Reasonable Person" would find the actions of the police justified.

_______
-twency

CGofMP
December 28, 2005, 08:28 PM
The LEO escalated the situation by closing in on the guy until he had nowhere to go but forward,

Uhm... with all due respect, the JOB of LEO is to close in on people who are impolite enough to offer a deadly threat to the public or other officers. Real sorry if it escelates the situation.

By this measure the cops should NEVER make contact with suspects as almost every time there is a few seconds where things can and do go either way. Sometimes the LEOs presence diffuses the situation and sometimes the presence of an authority figure makes things worse for a few minutes.

When things get worse someone can get hurt.. that is just the way things play out.

Again, the only option you then leave open for the cops is to let the people that show a tendency to escelate walk.

We are not dealing with children refusing to go to time-out here... we are dealing with a suspect who has violent tendencies and is exhibiting the clear and present potential of using them at the point of a knife.

http://members.aol.com/sunflowersnstone/images/kitten%20at%20knife%20point%20by%20chicks.jpg
Some people's idea of knife wielding suspects are not exactly in keeping with reality.

.

Powderman
December 29, 2005, 07:08 PM
basic training in the Armed Forces has a similiar test which each recruit private, myself included, was trained to deal with. We did, without arms of any kind!



And may I ask what training this was?

The training I received (1977-1992) in AIT, and my first duty station (Infantryman, Republic of Korea) taught me how to counter an enemy armed with a knife and how to maim or kill them immediately. Where does "disarming" of this nature fall into the force continuum that law enforcement officers are trained in?

I was among their ranks in a limited capacity 20 years ago in another state...

What limited capacity was that?

An LEO who, when faced with a deadly force situation, will fire deliberately at a subject's legs to "disable" them will face a review board and disciplinary action.

From the initial firearms training in the Academy, police officers are taught to fire center of mass until the threat stops.

Also, as someone else said, remember that when you contact a hostile suspect, there is always one gun present--YOURS. Why give the perp the chance to kill you?

Baba Louie
December 29, 2005, 08:14 PM
Excellent self control by those NOPD involved. Gave him EVERY CHANCE possible to comply. DROP THE WEAPON! Gave him more chances. PUT DOWN THE KNIFE! Gave him more chances. Backed him up almost a block (How'd you like to be the cameraman filming all that? Pucker factor way up...) Still, He would not comply.

Life can suck when you're mentally ill, agitated, armed and non-compliant;
6'2", 250#, OC'd (to no effect) and a very real threat to Citizens living/working on St. Charles Ave. surrounded by Cops with guns drawn and aimed at you.

Maybe LEO's should start carrying bullwhips and lasso's to disarm and immobilize bad guys. Works in the movies anyway ;) Oh yeah, this is REAL LIFE, not the movies. Where's Lash LaRue and Roy Rogers when you need them?

Glad all the LEO got off that shift alive and uninjured. Too bad they had to shoot him. I'd bet they really didn't want to have to do that the day after Christmas, or any day really.

Good shoot.

kel
December 29, 2005, 09:35 PM
And that means alot coming from me...
He said the man then walked toward an officer, who backed out of the way to avoid being stabbed in the chest.

jsalcedo
December 29, 2005, 10:04 PM
http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/perkins.jpg

Marlin Perkins could have taken him down, taken a picture with him and installed a radio collar without even getting a scratch.

carebear
December 29, 2005, 10:07 PM
http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/perkins.jpg

Marlin Perkins could have taken him down, taken a picture with him and installed a radio collar without even getting a scratch.

Nah, Marlin would have just done the play-by-play. Jim Fowler or Stan Brock would have done the actual takedown. :evil:

migoi
December 29, 2005, 10:08 PM
ole Jim was the one out on the pointy end of things most of the time...

migoi

proud2deviate
December 29, 2005, 10:54 PM
I own several three inch pocket knives and I don't want any of them stuck in my liver and wiggled around. In fact, I imagine I'd shoot a person multiple times to prevent such an occurance.:)

I say good shoot on this one.

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