pothead run-in... got me thinking.

[TMM]

firstly, a little story:

me and a friend of mine were in a coffeeshop and this guy who appeared to be stoned (err.. *was* stoned. he introduced himself to me twice, in the course of about 10 seconds) came up and started talking to us. of course, he's more or less completely docile, probably barely knew the difference between his ass and his mouth. anyway, he left, and i put my two fingers to my mouth to my friend(like smoking). she and i had a laugh and that's the end.

this got me to thinking. what would happen if he was aggresive, like if he was on PCP, i think it's called, or an angry drunk? i don't know about the "duty to retreat" in my state(connecticut), but it'd be tough to retreat: at the table i was at, one way i'd need to jump over about 4 tables(some with people) to get to a 10-foot straightaway to the door. to go the other way i'd be going toward the guy in order to turn around, and he was about 2-3 feet away me. i could go backwards, smashing the chair i'm sitting on away, but my friend, sitting opposite me, with her back to the wall, would have to go over/around the table. and she's not the defence-minded type. ("if someone started attacking me i'd just stop and ask them why they're doing that."-verbatim, more or less:barf: ) there were a few people around. i had a benchmade griptilian clipped in my pocket.

Discuss.
~TMM

[Biker]

If he was about your same size, all things being equal, under the disparity of force rules, you can only use the amount of force that he uses. Pull out that shank and you're gonna be bunkin' up with Bubba.
Biker

[ka50]

firstly, a little story:

me and a friend of mine were in a coffeeshop and this guy who appeared to be stoned (err.. *was* stoned. he introduced himself to me twice, in the course of about 10 seconds) came up and started talking to us. of course, he's more or less completely docile, probably barely knew the difference between his ass and his mouth. anyway, he left, and i put my two fingers to my mouth to my friend(like smoking). she and i had a laugh and that's the end.

this got me to thinking. what would happen if he was aggresive, like if he was on PCP, i think it's called, or an angry drunk? i don't know about the "duty to retreat" in my state(connecticut), but it'd be tough to retreat: at the table i was at, one way i'd need to jump over about 4 tables(some with people) to get to a 10-foot straightaway to the door. to go the other way i'd be going toward the guy in order to turn around, and he was about 2-3 feet away me. i could go backwards, smashing the chair i'm sitting on away, but my friend, sitting opposite me, with her back to the wall, would have to go over/around the table. and she's not the defence-minded type. ("if someone started attacking me i'd just stop and ask them why they're doing that."-verbatim, more or less:barf: ) there were a few people around. i had a benchmade griptilian clipped in my pocket.

Discuss.
~TMM

If you're in grave and deadly danger with no opportunity of timely retreat, open fire.

If he's just swinging, hit him in his nose.

[Jim March]

Even if the size of the dude is the same as yours, there are clearly situations where somebody is so totally wigged-out psycho they need shooting/stabbing/etc.

Put another way: say some guy attacks you out of the blue with fists. You fight back. He knocks you over and starts stomping. In every state I'm aware of, that's now deadly force and firing up from the ground is legal.

That's because what's happened is, the assailant has completely lost all rational and/or moral control. For the same reason, when fighting back YOU need to maintain control or you turn into the aggressor.

Well when drugs are involved (obviously NOT pot!), the process of things going totally rodeo speeds up in a hurry. This is well known enough that yeah, some guy comes at me full-bore and obviously totally loopy, I'm not letting him get the upper hand. Period.

[Mad Chemist]

I doubt Tommy Chong is going to roll you in the coffee shop.:D

In a more serious situation obstacles and improvisation are you friends. Tables can preserve the gap between you and the aggressor. With a little practice you can easily learn how to "scoot" chairs and similar sized objects into an attackers legs. A hot cup of coffee makes an excellent tool for a preemptive strike.:evil:

It seems that many of us become fixated on our EDC tools and we often forget that we are usually surrounded by many expedient weapons that may be quicker to access than our concealed gear. Improvised weapons can provide the time and distraction neccessary to employ your primary weapon.

JH

[Carlos]

I don't know, I think you made a mountain out of a molehill.

Pot smokers generally aren't to be compared with meth heads. Pot smokers generally aren't violent.

[Biker]

I don't know, I think you made a mountain out of a molehill.

Pot smokers generally aren't to be compared with meth heads. Pot smokers generally aren't violent.
Good point, man. It's strange, but it seems that everyone is looking for a reason to shoot/cut/asp/oc someone nowadays.
Whatever happened to just knockin' out a 'richard-head'? I don't get it.
I'm sure that I'll catch $25 worth of BS for this post, but I just don't get the general attitude.
:rolleyes:
Biker

[fjolnirsson]

Good point, man. It's strange, but it seems that everyone is looking for a reason to shoot/cut/asp/oc someone nowadays.
Whatever happened to just knockin' out a 'richard-head'? I don't get it.
I'm sure that I'll catch $25 worth of BS for this post, but I just don't get the general attitude.

I feel the same way. I think a lot of it may be the focus on "image" folks feel we should project to avoid giving antis something to point fingers at. As armed citizens, we all have to be more "civilized" than unarmed folks, but I think people push it too far, out of (perfectly legitimate) fear of overzealous LE and DAs. I also think a lot of this attitue stems from folks not wanting to be percieved as "tough guys".
I've been in my share of hands on conflict in the past, and I strive to avoid it. However, if I can avoid shooting someone by putting him in a joint lock or other control hold, I'll gladly take a lump or two. I just don't think most people see it this way. I think it really is a case of a hammer being the only weapon, causing things to look like nails. Or in this case, hammer, crowbar and wd-40.:neener:
I don't think we pay enough attention, as a group, to unarmed options.

I guess I've signed up for my $25, too.

[Biker]

I'm sure that there's *at least* $50 worth out there waiting.:neener:
Biker

[Phyphor]

I don't know, I think you made a mountain out of a molehill.

Pot smokers generally aren't to be compared with meth heads. Pot smokers generally aren't violent.

Unless you happen to be a bag of Doritos.

Won't someone think of the Doritos?!?!?!?!!? :neener:

[Phyphor]

Good point, man. It's strange, but it seems that everyone is looking for a reason to shoot/cut/asp/oc someone nowadays.
Whatever happened to just knockin' out a 'richard-head'? I don't get it.
I'm sure that I'll catch $25 worth of BS for this post, but I just don't get the general attitude.
:rolleyes:
Biker

No :cuss:

There's a difference between being prepared and being all-but spoiling for a fight. If the guy's clearly just stoned, he's almost certainly not going to be any kind of threat. Anyone on heavier drugs is going to be instantly recognizable as either doped or a crazy person. Where I live, crankheads (meth users) are a dime a dozen, and recognizable from a half-block away. They just can't sit still, act pretty irrationally (paranoid, or sometimes can even follow you around, one did so to my sister once, and at that point, I sure as hell had my hand on my knife. Fortunately, that idiot got the hint and split )

Folks like that can tend to react to percieved threats rather violently. OR, if they're coming down off a high, they'll be wanting another pretty damned badly. Dunno if it's as bad as crack, but I don't really see the difference in being robbed / tossed up by a crack or crankhead.

Yea, someone like that, I'd say stay ready. But a stoner in a coffeeshop?
Hell, just buy a donut and toss it in the opposite direction that you're going, takes care of that.
:neener:

[Biker]

No :cuss:

There's a difference between being prepared and being all-but spoiling for a fight. If the guy's clearly just stoned, he's almost certainly not going to be any kind of threat. Anyone on heavier drugs is going to be instantly recognizable as either doped or a crazy person. Where I live, crankheads (meth users) are a dime a dozen, and recognizable from a half-block away. They just can't sit still, act pretty irrationally (paranoid, or sometimes can even follow you around, one did so to my sister once, and at that point, I sure as hell had my hand on my knife. Fortunately, that idiot got the hint and split )

Folks like that can tend to react to percieved threats rather violently. OR, if they're coming down off a high, they'll be wanting another pretty damned badly. Dunno if it's as bad as crack, but I don't really see the difference in being robbed / tossed up by a crack or crankhead.

Yea, someone like that, I'd say stay ready. But a stoner in a coffeeshop?
Hell, just buy a donut and toss it in the opposite direction that you're going, takes care of that.
:neener:

You're readin' me wrong, man. My point is, why is everyone so ready, in fact eager, to go tacti-cool and unleash their personal arsenal of weapons on someone that could simply be manhandled (or womanhandled;)?
The original poster in this thread (and no offense intended) seemed to be looking forward to shanking one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers.
Even the all feared meth heads are almost always emaciated and weak as puppies.
The prevailling attitude seems to be 'I wanna use all my stuff the first chance I get!'
It defies common sense...
Just my two 'sense' worth...
;)
Biker

[redbone]

she and i had a laugh and that's the end.

this got me to thinking. what would happen if he was aggresive, like if he was on PCP, i think it's called, or an angry drunk? ~TMM

I don't think TMM was itching to stick a blade in the pot head. The basis of the post was the follow-up "what would happen" scenario.

And, I too think there'a a time and a place for a quick poke in the nose to discourage a pest. Just that I'm getting older, and the pests all seem a lot younger....

RBH

[Biker]

I don't think TMM was itching to stick a blade in the pot head.

And, I too think there'a a time and a place for a quick poke in the nose to discourage a pest. Just that I'm getting older, and the pests all seem a lot younger....

RBH
I can completely relate to that. There's always a place and time for a 'strategic withdrawal'...
:)
Biker

[Phyphor]

You're readin' me wrong, man. My point is, why is everyone so ready, in fact eager, to go tacti-cool and unleash their personal arsenal of weapons on someone that could simply be manhandled (or womanhandled;)?
The original poster in this thread (and no offense intended) seemed to be looking forward to shanking one of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers.
Even the all feared meth heads are almost always emaciated and weak as puppies.
The prevailling attitude seems to be 'I wanna use all my stuff the first chance I get!'
It defies common sense...
Just my two 'sense' worth...
;)
Biker


No, I get what you mean, I addressed that in the last line "a stoner in a coffee shop, just toss a donut in the opposite direction. "

IOW, I agree that we shouldn't be rarin' to unleash hell on just anyone.

There's some folks that DO need a bullet, but Johnny Smokesalot isn't likely one of them.

[XLMiguel]

Most stoners I've encountered go away if you speak harshly or yell at them. As a matter of fact, it seem to work on most everyone I treat that way (never unprovoked, of course).

Folks on other substances are another matter, but again, most don't want a hassle. Given that it isn't always easy to recognize the 'buzz-du-jour', they all bear watching, handle with care, violence is a last option.

[odysseus]

most don't want a hassle

People on 2 mind-altering substances of choice seem to actually seek out hassles and give them to people from what I have seen. Alchohol and amphetamines seem to bring this out of a lot of people. YMMV, but I think your local LEO would agree.

You can never tell sometimes. I have seen the most calmly and happy drunk person turn into a serious rage at the drop of a hat due to the misperception of the smallest things.

[Preacherman]

I think the real problem with dopers is their unpredictability. I've never yet encountered a marijuana user who was violently unstable, but I know LEO's who insist they have. I've personally seen guys on meth, crack, PCP, etc. go blowtorch at the drop of a hat, without any rhyme or reason for their actions, but there was no way to tell in advance that this was about to happen. I guess the only safeguard is to be extremely alert and ready to move in a hurry if something goes down.

(As an aside - one of the funnier drug busts conducted by local cops went down a few weeks ago. They caught a meth lab in operation, and locked up four people who were "in the act" at the time. Well, the one lady's Chihuahua, which was running around in all the excitement, seems to have picked up and eaten a rock of meth, or something else highly narcotic. Next thing you know, the dog goes insane in the police car! He was biting on his owner and another guy in the back with her, and generally acting completely moonbat. The cop who was driving stopped the car, and [silly man] opened the back door to get at the dog, which promptly bit the heck out of his hand and arm, jumped out the door, and vanished into the night, hotly [and unsuccessfully] pursued by a couple of irate cops. The dog was found next morning, peacefully sleeping off his binge in a local cemetery, whilst his former owner, her buddy, and the cop transporting them, all required extensive treatment at the local hospital before being booked... :D )

[jeepmor]

First off, I don't see any "run-in" here at all. Our poster is a young kid (15) and a little paranoid about the world at the moment, seems to me that this is normal adolescent thought patterns. I had them, recall many of them, they all amounted to nothing, it was just a youthful learning process, nothing to burn to many calories on. Looking back of course now that I'm older, this position seems quite easy. He is re-thinking his actions of making a smoking sign about the guy and asking "what if" this guy was a meth freak or something and decided to confront me?

However, the only thing I don't see being discussed is that there appears to be a fear in people packing heaters that this will be the only way to resolve what would most likely be a posturing argument and nothing more. I personally think the big fear is that if fisticuffs were to ensue, the person in possession of a CCW might have it discovered and inadvertently escalate rather than defuse the situation should the attacker become aware of the possession of the firearm or knife. Lose control of said weapon and become a victim of a gunshot rather than a simple fistfight. In my opinion, this appears to be why people with CCW are a bit more paranoid of potentially using deadly force. Because they have it at their means and expect the SHTF experiences, not just simple confrontations.

Like I read from somewhere on this board, if you possess a CCW, it is your duty to be the first to back down, first to de-escalate any confrontation and the first to scat out of the area should you see a physical confrontation coming. We are allowed CCWs as "good" citizens and they don't give them to convicts and felons for a reason. So we are obliged to take the "high road" and avoid confrontation at all costs, unless we are backed into a corner and cannot retreat.... something like that anyhow.

jeepmor

[odysseus]

Like I read from somewhere on this board, if you possess a CCW, it is your duty to be the first to back down, first to de-escalate any confrontation and the first to scat out of the area should you see a physical confrontation coming. We are allowed CCWs as "good" citizens and they don't give them to convicts and felons for a reason. So we are obliged to take the "high road" and avoid confrontation at all costs, unless we are backed into a corner and cannot retreat.... something like that anyhow.

I thought this was an understated assumption. You can't go out and about in life without keeping a cool head, and calm reasoning. Life has enough weirdness in it if you are not.

Not sure where I am seeing too much of the opposite here in this thread other than a supposed scenario offered about someone on mind-altering substances acting hostile. I would offer that one should not assume anything and avoid guessing what the person is "on".

[fjolnirsson]

Just that I'm getting older, and the pests all seem a lot younger....

Boy, ain't that the truth....
Of course, that also means we don't even exist for most of those "young'uns"....:D

[Jim March]

Waitasec here...nobody in this thread, not even the first poster, is suggesting that a babbling pothead is in need of deadly force :D.

They're just comical, by and large.

The question as I read it is: if it's possible to find a guy out in public completely fried on one illegal drug (pot), what are the odds of encountering somebody mind-blasted on something WAY more dangerous, such as Meth, PCP, etc?

A perfectly valid question.

When I lived in San Francisco, once a month there would be some area near where I lived that looked like a tornado hit it. One of the local bums was getting a welfare check of some sort and blowing it on something really nasty and would go completely wiggy. His favorite targets were curbside newspaper boxes...we'd find them totally mangled in the middle of the road.

I never saw one of these rampages and they were property-directed thank GOD. But they do happen against people too...I know a guy who got in a gunfight with a meth cook who wigged out on his lab's fumes, came out onto the street and started randomly shooting.

So this stuff *happens*.

Just not on pot :neener:.

[ball3006]

and nothing else, and he is in a do nut shop, he probably doesn't even know you are there. He is there for some munchies......Have yet to see a violent person on pot only. Now, if he is on something else, it becomes a whole different story. I lived through the 60s and 70s and have seen a whole bunch of pot smokers.......chris3

[trueblue1776]

wow, I hope no one ever thinks about shooting me just because I'm drunk and try to strike up some conversation :rolleyes:

[engineer151515]

Pepper spray is your friend.

Carry it with your CCW for a non-lethal option.

I do.

[neoncowboy]

Pot smokers generally aren't violent.

...and meth-heads/tweakers (especially the ones that are far gone enough to be dangerous) are generally too paranoid to be hanging out in coffee shops.

I've never yet encountered a marijuana user who was violently unstable, but I know LEO's who insist they have.

More likely, the LEO was seeing someone who was violently unstable, and happened to have smoked some marijuana (likely in combo with other intoxicants).

My point is, why is everyone so ready, in fact eager, to go tacti-cool and unleash their personal arsenal of weapons on someone that could simply be manhandled (or womanhandled?

Because they have cool kit and maybe some training and are anxious to put it to use? Because they are scared to tangle with someone who actually is dangerous...so they imagine someone who is completely innocuous as being 'dangerous'? Because 20 years of 'war on drugs' has gotten under their skin to the point that they actually believe that a user of marijuana might be dangerous? Because internet forums attract posers?

Pepper spray is your friend.

Carry it with your CCW for a non-lethal option.

I do.

+1000

Pepper spray or maybe just a quick blast of Surefire light is probably overkill for 95% of the situations you are likely to run into downtown. Always better to be overprepared than underprepared though.

[jondar]

[QUOTE=Mike in VA]Most stoners I've encountered go away if you speak harshly or yell at them. As a matter of fact, it seem to work on most everyone I treat that way (never unprovoked, of course)

Very true. The problem, of course is identifying what is and is not a threat. To wit: About three years ago I looked for a parking place close to my bank. This is in a city of around 150 thousand. I found a place down about eight parking places from the front of my bank. The Auto Teller Machine is located as you go in the front door. Large plate glass windows give a clear view of the street. I withdrew some money, moved over to the window and started putting the bills in my money clip. I noticed a young man directly across the street watching me, but thought nothing of it. As I left the bank and started down to my truck, he started walking in the same direction parallel with me. I spend quite a bit of time in Central America working and hanging out and the cities there are full of beggars. The beggars can spot a gringo a city block away. You get off the plane, you are besieged by beggars. The Central Americans aren't, just the Norte Americano. This is irritating tho you have to put up with it. This is what I thought with this guy, I was going to be panhandled. No thought of anything else. As I got in my truck, he had crossed the street. I had the window rolled up. He came up to my truck, stuck his face close to the window, rapped sharply eight or ten times on it. I just lost it, I screamed as loud as I could. "Get the f . . out of here! Now!" It did startle him and he moved to the front of the truck. Walking away he pointed his index finger with the thumb making motions of firing a pistol. I gave it back to him. By the time I got moving down the street he was crossing at the crosswalk and he gave me the same sign and I gave it back to him. About three months later the local newspaper told of a murder in a city park where four young men had attempted to hijack an SUV with a man, his GF and two young children in it. The man attempted to drive away and was shot dead. The shooter's name and photo were printed. Guess who it was. When his trial came up I attended one session just to make sure. It was him. Moral: You never know what you are up against. Tho I had a gun in the truck, I never thought of pulling it. Had this guy been armed on that day things may have been different. So keep your cool and be prepared for anything.

[slopemeno]

Alcohol is a much more serious issue -if they're pot users, take notes because sometimes you'll hear some funny lines you may want to use later...
Theres always techniques like- "hey guy, watch my coffee for a sec- I need to run to my car" and youre gone. Use John Belushi's line from 1941 "Oh look, a baby wolf!"

[CAS700850]

Two thoughts. First, it seems clear to me that the original post was a "what if" scenario, intended to provoke thought and discussion about being stuck in a restaurant with an aggressor between you and the door. For the most part, I find such "war gaming" to be useful, as it does provoke thought on a tactical situation, which in turn adds to one's list of possibilities should one ever find one's self in such a situation. It's sort of like football players studying their playbooks and watching game films, to mentally prepare themselves for what may happen on game day.

Second, I think Biker does have a point. All too often, we see posts suggesting a quick shot of OC, a jab to the abdomen with an ASP, etc. When was the last time anyone seriously recommended a verbal de-escalation, followed by a safe retreat or exit from the situation. From my experiences, back when I was young, dumber, and frequented bars hunting for Ms. Right Now, I found myself once or twice the target of an angry drunk. I can proudly say that I was never pushed, struck, punched, stabbed, or shot in any of these situations. In each, I let the guy go on about things, tried to agree or back down verbally, then leave first chance that appeared. I was called a coward once. And, I'm sure that similar phrases were used to describe me after I left. My ego survived, just like the rest of me. And isn't that really the goal?

[Henry Bowman]

[Kenny Rogers voice] Everybody called him the coward of the county. [/Kenny Rogers voice]

[TMM]

firstly: thank you to the guys who correctly interpreted my post. i had no intention or wish to knife the guy, nor did i want to. but, as Jim March said, what if he was on somthing else, more dangerous?

to the others: my knife would probably NOT be deployed first, since, while it can be drawn quickly, it's not lightening. i probably would have used my coffee or a chair.

i would have tried to keep the situation stable - i don't want to fight, unless he is my life-long enemy...which i don't have. :rolleyes:

jeepmor: i'm not paranoid, just cautious. about the "run-in" bit, i couldn't think of the proper word.

~TMM

[trueblue1776]

firstly: thank you to the guys who correctly interpreted my post. i had no intention or wish to knife the guy, nor did i want to. but, as Jim March said, what if he was on somthing else, more dangerous?

to the others: my knife would probably NOT be deployed first, since, while it can be drawn quickly, it's not lightening. i probably would have used my coffee or a chair.

i would have tried to keep the situation stable - i don't want to fight, unless he is my life-long enemy...which i don't have. :rolleyes:

jeepmor: i'm not paranoid, just cautious. about the "run-in" bit, i couldn't think of the proper word.

~TMM


it's cool, please just dont stab me dude

[Biker]

it's cool, please just dont stab me dude
Don't be doin' tree, then.
:evil:
Biker

[Sean85746]

Toss a bag of Doritos over his head, and escape as he dives after his bag of munchies!

Or...if you are in a coffe shop, one might assume you have some HOT COFFEE handy.

Hot coffee in the face followed by as many hard and fast punches as you can throw is pretty effective.

[Mad Chemist]

Pepper spray or maybe just a quick blast of Surefire light is probably overkill for 95% of the situations you are likely to run into downtown. Always better to be overprepared than underprepared though.

+1 on that.
People on stims tend to be very light-sensitive. The temporary blindness from a flashlight is magnified when used on someone who is tweaking. I'm not to fond of spray, I've seen it fail before and I've known people who developed resistance to capsicum spray.
JH

[wheelgunslinger]

Don't be doin' tree, then.
:evil:
Biker

ROFLMAO

:D

[bogie]

Dude, stoners are your buds. Don't worry about them. Never met one that was hazardous. Generally the opposite, unless you're between them and the Doritos...

Bogie
Eastern Kentucky University 1987
Todd and O'Donnell Halls

[No_Brakes23]

Dude, stoners are your buds. Lol, is that pun intended?:)

[natedog]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/20/WAG3420.JPG