And then there were two...

[STiTkacik]

Ok, after months of researching, shooting and putting my hands on just about every sub-$600 12 guage O/U out there I have been able to whittle my options down to two guns.
They are (in no particular order BTW):

1. Remington Spartan SPR-310 Field or Silver ~$499.00

2. Mossberg Silver Reserve ~$477.00

Now, since they are both so similarly priced and both feel equally swingable in by hands, I have come to the point in my search to where I need to look at which will be more reliable and long lasting. I have had experience with Remington products but never Mossberg stuff.

Which of these imported re-brands would you choose, and why?


Thanks!
STiTkacik - Yes I'll eventually buy a gun and stop asking so many blasting questions... :D

[BozemanMT]

Lanbeer
better wood, better quality, same price point (@ $500)
the wife has 5000 to 6000 rounds through hers since June.
still shooting, nothing has ever gone wrong.

[Dave McCracken]

870. Save up for a decent quality used O/U....

[Scoupe]

870. Save up for a decent quality used O/U....

Ditto.

Friend has an FFL. Loaned me an Baikal something or other. Good enough, I thought after a couple weeks. Got ready to pay him for it and happened to try one of the Lanbers he had at the range that day. Lanber won hands down. Shot the Lanber for about 8 weeks. Decent gun, doesn't fit well enough for all the skeet shooting I was doing. Even the slightest head raise gave me a good knot on the cheek. Tired of being beat up by the Lanber, picked up an 1100 20ga on a standard frame and shot the snot out of it for another 3 months or so.

After that I realized that I want to play skeet seriously so I FINALLY started looking at quality O/U shotguns and sub-gauge tube sets. Just about bought a nice used Citori Golden Clays Special Skeet with a tube set, then came into some money I wasn't expecting (land sale). I just sucked it up and popped for a used Krieghoff - plus I bought the aforementioned Citori for the significant other. We've been messing around with guns for her too, so I just cut to the chase on hers. (She's a whole 'nother story, but I give her a year to be kicking my butt up and down on the skeet field - she's a natural.)

No, I don't recommend a Krieghoff for your first quality O/U, but I do recommend saving for a good one. There IS a difference and a good "B" gun can be found used for under a grand.

[HSMITH]

Pick up a 391, Gold or SuperX2. Save up for a nice over/under.

Nothing against the 870, but I have has as good or better luck with the above autochuckers.

[Rogmatt]

It is amazing to me how some people just ignore the facts. The man said it was narrowed down to 2 options, yet some gents still post their favorite gun.

Here is a letter I recieved from the President of EAA shortly after they turned over distribution of Baikal to Remington. Let me say also that I know many, many Spartan owners.

Dear Roger

I am not the best letter writer and as you can see many times you get answers from my Black Berry since I am on the road some where in the world.

Baikal - correct would be Izhevsk Mechanisky Zavod or for short IMZ. This is the company that owns the trade mark Baikal after the fall of the USSR. Durring the USSR times all guns exported from Russia were called Baikal and they were made by different factories. A factory in Russia in the USSR times was called a Zavod (or home of the people). Literally they were the home of the people they supplied: work, social events, housing, income, medicial, cultural events, supported universities, etc. Today this is gone. The Zavod is like in the USA a place to work and some social things like volly ball games or contests.

You may ask how did EAA come to work with IMZ? Simple, as an engineer I saw products with a foundation that were correct. The first meetings were hard and I could write a book on the experiences. Today Baikal products are technically correct and configured mostly correct for USA taste and are safe or safer than most products in the industy. Yes, we are not as pretty as some, but we say looks are only skin deep.

Want a gun to hunt or use, buy a Baikal, want a gun to hang on the wall and look at, buy the competition.

As you know today Baikal (IMZ) is working with Remington to build the Spartan line. This working relationship complements IMZ and Remington and further proves my origial thoughts that the IMZ product was techinally correct. To be approved to carry the Remington logo each model must go through a series of destructive and nondestructive test. The IMZ products passed the test and in some cases surprised the testors and IMZ engineers.

An example of how far IMZ has come is the MP153. A reasonable price semi auto that runs 3.5” to 2.75” 12ga. Let's just say we did this project in record time and used engineers around the world. Had we not had e-mail we could of never acomplished this project in such a short time.

In 2005 you will see many new items from IMZ including the MP221 or MR221 and the IZH18MH or IZH18MN. These two guns took a treaty amendent between the USA and Russia.

Roger I am writing this on my hand held so it needs to be cleaned up before it can be printed. So if you could do this and pass it back for my final approval. I am a product of Florida schools and we were the guys that could not determine what a chad was.

Thanks

Keith

Also, see this article from gunweek: www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0210.html (http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0210.html)

[STiTkacik]

Heh, thanks for the responses guys!

I really have nothing against the 870, I have shot them and liked them. But I'm really not looking to purchase a pump gun. I have many friends I can borrow an 870 from.

Dave, I know that the O/U's I mentioned aren't the finest fit and finish out there, but this is the most I can justify spending on just about any gun, be it pump, autoloader, or SxS. I have shot 870's and I just really didn't like how they fit. *Shrug* Perhaps I'm a minority in that department...

So, out of the ones I listed which ones will be the most reliable and durable in the long run?

Keep the responses coming guys! :)

[STiTkacik]

Pick up a 391, Gold or SuperX2. Save up for a nice over/under.

Nothing against the 870, but I have has as good or better luck with the above autochuckers.

I thought about an autoloader, but I have heard they're not too keen on expelling light loads...

[Scoupe]

It is amazing to me how some people just ignore the facts. The man said it was narrowed down to 2 options, yet some gents still post their favorite gun.

Here is a letter I recieved from the President of EAA shortly after they turned over distribution of Baikal to Remington. Let me say also that I know many, many Spartan owners.

Dear Roger

I am not the best letter writer and as you can see many times you get answers from my Black Berry since I am on the road some where in the world.

Baikal - correct would be Izhevsk Mechanisky Zavod or for short IMZ. This is the company that owns the trade mark Baikal after the fall of the USSR. Durring the USSR times all guns exported from Russia were called Baikal and they were made by different factories. A factory in Russia in the USSR times was called a Zavod (or home of the people). Literally they were the home of the people they supplied: work, social events, housing, income, medicial, cultural events, supported universities, etc. Today this is gone. The Zavod is like in the USA a place to work and some social things like volly ball games or contests.

You may ask how did EAA come to work with IMZ? Simple, as an engineer I saw products with a foundation that were correct. The first meetings were hard and I could write a book on the experiences. Today Baikal products are technically correct and configured mostly correct for USA taste and are safe or safer than most products in the industy. Yes, we are not as pretty as some, but we say looks are only skin deep.

Want a gun to hunt or use, buy a Baikal, want a gun to hang on the wall and look at, buy the competition.

As you know today Baikal (IMZ) is working with Remington to build the Spartan line. This working relationship complements IMZ and Remington and further proves my origial thoughts that the IMZ product was techinally correct. To be approved to carry the Remington logo each model must go through a series of destructive and nondestructive test. The IMZ products passed the test and in some cases surprised the testors and IMZ engineers.

An example of how far IMZ has come is the MP153. A reasonable price semi auto that runs 3.5” to 2.75” 12ga. Let's just say we did this project in record time and used engineers around the world. Had we not had e-mail we could of never acomplished this project in such a short time.

In 2005 you will see many new items from IMZ including the MP221 or MR221 and the IZH18MH or IZH18MN. These two guns took a treaty amendent between the USA and Russia.

Roger I am writing this on my hand held so it needs to be cleaned up before it can be printed. So if you could do this and pass it back for my final approval. I am a product of Florida schools and we were the guys that could not determine what a chad was.

Thanks

Keith

Also, see this article from gunweek: www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0210.html (http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0210.html)

Roger,

Before you take us to task.. Oh wait, too late....

The poll has three options, the third one being "other". I chose other and honored his request to say what "other" I liked. I like a good used "B" gun over his listed choices and I'll stick by that.

[riverdog]

Being another of those who voted other aka 870, now that you've explained that, go with the Remington Spartan/Baikal gun.

As for fit, I had to go to a Wenig (http://www.wenig.com/)custom stock to make my 870 fit -- HUGE difference. It isn't real pretty and it has no checkering, but it fits and shoots great. Hint: the Wenig New American is not a tactical stock. It's asymetrical; made to help you position your eye behind the barrel and better distribute the recoil. Shooting my gun left handed would be brutal/painful. Right handed, it shoots very soft compared to a factory 870 stock. I finished it to fit me, but I'm fairly average. . .

[kennygarza]

I would suggest buying a used quality gun before a new lower end one. I was in this same situation until about two weeks ago, then I came across a used Beretta 686 for $450 cash. Look around, deals are out there. I am by no means a gun snob, but I'm so glad I held off on the Spartan or the Yildiz.
KG

[STiTkacik]

Being another of those who voted other aka 870, now that you've explained that, go with the Remington Spartan/Baikal gun.

As for fit, I had to go to a Wenig (http://www.wenig.com/)custom stock to make my 870 fit -- HUGE difference. It isn't real pretty and it has no checkering, but it fits and shoots great. Hint: the Wenig New American is not a tactical stock. It's asymetrical; made to help you position your eye behind the barrel and better distribute the recoil. Shooting my gun left handed would be brutal/painful. Right handed, it shoots very soft compared to a factory 870 stock. I finished it to fit me, but I'm fairly average. . .


I'll have to check into those 870 stocks if and when I choose to buy one. Thanks for the tip! The 870's I've shot in the past have been totally unmodified, so that may be the reason I wasn't too happy with the feel of the gun. As I've mentioned in the past, I'm a pretty small guy.

[STiTkacik]

I would suggest buying a used quality gun before a new lower end one. I was in this same situation until about two weeks ago, then I came across a used Beretta 686 for $450 cash. Look around, deals are out there. I am by no means a gun snob, but I'm so glad I held off on the Spartan or the Yildiz.
KG


Wow, that is an awesome deal! Where did you find the gun? The gun I choose will be used to the occasional quail/dove hunt with a few rounds of sporting clays mixed in...


Keep 'em coming! :D

[riverdog]

A much better option than the two choices listed. You may still need to work on fit, but the basic firearm (receiver, action, trigger et al) will be better. Look for a Browning or Beretta.

Wenig makes rough stocks for many different long guns, not just 870's. I upgraded my field grade 870 because I had it and wanted it to point better for Trap/Skeet. Trap scores improved big time the first time out with the Wenig stock, before I had the Pachmyer butt pad added. Without the pad it shot better than a factory 870 stock. After all that, I bought a Browning O/U for Skeet, still use the 870 for Trap.

[9mmMike]

Ditto.

....... Decent gun, doesn't fit well enough for all the skeet shooting I was doing. Even the slightest head raise gave me a good knot on the cheek. ....

Sorry for the sidebar but....
This is the trouble I am having with my plain-barrel'd 870. Exactly.
What is the cure that does not include a new gun?
I am hoping that swapping to a VR barrel will help me.

Thanks,
Mike

[Dave McCracken]

The cheaper doubles have two big probs as a group. One, they do not hold up to regular target shooting. A clays gun gets shot more in a month than a hunting gun often does in a decade.

Two, one of the reasons upscale doubles cost so much is because it takes very good workmanship to get both barrels shooting to the same point. This is called "Regulating" the barrels.

Some, not all, cheap doubles are far from perfectly regulated. I've seen one Stoeger that had one barrel off a couple feet at 35 yards. Stoeger replaced it with one only 8" off.

Beretta will do the same if the barrels diverge more than 1 foot. Beretta's lemon ratio is probably better than Stoeger's.

This doesn't mean ALL cheap doubles will give you probs, but it's more likely in a $500 shotgun than a $5000 one. Kind of a crap shoot, getting a good'un.

I suggested an 870 for obvious reasons. Longevity, reliability, versatility. Once a shotgunner has an 870 or one of the many other good repeaters to take care of high volume shooting, he/she has the important stuff covered and can indulge in whatever stirreth the pulse. Just be aware of the downsides...

[STiTkacik]

The cheaper doubles have two big probs as a group. One, they do not hold up to regular target shooting. A clays gun gets shot more in a month than a hunting gun often does in a decade.

Two, one of the reasons upscale doubles cost so much is because it takes very good workmanship to get both barrels shooting to the same point. This is called "Regulating" the barrels.

Some, not all, cheap doubles are far from perfectly regulated. I've seen one Stoeger that had one barrel off a couple feet at 35 yards. Stoeger replaced it with one only 8" off.

Beretta will do the same if the barrels diverge more than 1 foot. Beretta's lemon ratio is probably better than Stoeger's.

This doesn't mean ALL cheap doubles will give you probs, but it's more likely in a $500 shotgun than a $5000 one. Kind of a crap shoot, getting a good'un.

I suggested an 870 for obvious reasons. Longevity, reliability, versatility. Once a shotgunner has an 870 or one of the many other good repeaters to take care of high volume shooting, he/she has the important stuff covered and can indulge in whatever stirreth the pulse. Just be aware of the downsides...

Funny you mention the Stoeger story. I was considering a Condor, but heard similar stries from others about their accuracy.

One of the reasons I chose these two brands is because I have heard good things about them from others. I do understand about some of the quality issues with OU's in this price range... Like you've said before - you get what you pay for.


Thanks again.

[SShooterZ]

As mentioned previously, there are numerous other brands you can pick from in the used market that will be much more reliable in the long run.

Browning Citori
Beretta 686
Ruger Red Label
Winchester 101

All can be found for decent prices and most will out last any of the inexpensive O/Us found today.

[shane justice]

Right...I chose other...

Benneli M4...or the gun I hated to lose in a divorce...

The franchi SPAS 12....

Shane