Learn Somethin' Every Day (18" 870 Bbl)

[Lee Lapin]

I spent a good while some months ago looking for an 18" rifle sighted 870 Police gun barrel with a factory Improved Cylinder choke. Well, one turned up on eBay, the bidding didn't get terribly out of control and a few days after the auction ended it appeared at my local post office.

Y'all might recall me mentioning my disappointment with this particular barrel on these pages. I mentioned that it would put Brenneke KO slugs into cloverleafs at 25 yards, but of all the wide variety of buckshot loads available for pattern testing at Chateau Lapin (lots of them too, several no longer in production) not a single load of various sizes of buckshot form #4 to 000 produced any kind of (IMO) useful pattern at all at 25 yards.

Humph. Sometimes they call 'em scatterguns for a REASON.

So I decided to let the good folks at Colonial Arms in my hometown of Selma, AL take a look at it next time I was down that way. I ran off and forgot to carry it when I made a quick trip home to be with my Mom while Hurricane Katrina made her Bourbon Street debut (and played havoc across the southeast as far east as Atlanta, GA). But when we went home last week for Christmas, the barrel rode along.

Last week I went looking for 'Red' Lyles, only to discover that he was not at work that day. But one of his cohorts listened to my song of woe, went back into the shop and brought out the instrumentation. Much measuring commenced, and after a few minutes he began to give me the old evil eye. Finally he asked exactly what else exactly I planned to do to this particular barrel, since it was already backbored.

Well, I was nonplussed to put it mildly. I assured him I did not doubt the veracity of his bore gauge or his ability to use it, but I had heard nothing about Remington producing factory backbored barrels for police guns. He assured me that Remington did LOTS of things I hadn't heard about, and the bore diameter of the barrel I handed him was .739 with a choke diameter of .729, and moreover the barrel walls were not reduced in thickness as they would be if it were an aftermarket job, so it was an apparent factory barrel, so there. And I needn't worry about the muzzle being square or the choke being concentric because all that was OK too. Whatever problems this barrel had in throwing buckshot patterns, it didn't seem to be anything easily fixable that I could tell from what I heard. He seemed convinced it was all a product of an overactive imagination on my part anyway.

I was still stuttering but not arguing, not at all. He said if I wanted more choke they could put in an Invector choke system and I could work with that some, but I hadn't planned on putting any more screw-in choke tubes into short barrels if I could help it. That was why I was willing to settle for the ImpCyl factory choke. I offered to pay him for the time I had taken up, which he refused, and I thanked him and carried the odd barrel back to the car.

Well, next step is to order in some of that new Federal fodder and try that. Need to put some downrange from the new FN Police Shotgun too, and see how that one likes it.

Stay tuned...

lpl/nc

[sm]

Email sent.
:D

[Rupestris]

I seem to have that barrels evil twin. :D

My bead sighted 18.5 Rem bbl paterns nice with TAP 00 Buck (under 8" and centered) but I have yet to find the slug it likes. @25 yds. it puts slugs as much as 4.5" to the right. I can accept 2" off @ 25 as this is a HD bbl and longest shot would be 11 yards tops. I'd just feel better if it hit closer to POA w/slugs.

I've only tried two brands so far. I'll be picking up some different brands and testing before I have it taken in for a check-up.

[sm]

Rupestris,

I've met your barrel's cousin . :p

I shared something with Lee in a email. Granted he normally makes paper airplanes out of my emails and sails them across the room for the dogs to chase...
...come to think of it, a lot of folks do that with my emails and letters...

I have a theory based on some T&E , I did / have done on - includes these barrels.

One tool I used to have use of was the Stan Baker Bore Diameter tool. Pricey, still one can learn a LOT about barrels.

Including , but not limited to: Barrels do vary as they come down the line. We have heard and read "Makes no difference what a barrel or choke marked - what does the pattern board reveal". And...
*ahem* sometimes factories do things to barrels that they do not inform the public about.

Just because *something* is new, the term is cool, neat or groovy, has a catchy sound, added with marketing , advertising copy...err...if'n you don't really go to the trouble to compare with a known baseline, then you don't know- say for instance what the Stan Baker tool is revealing.

Tool for the task:

Uglo discovered flat rocks could be sharpened and used to cut, they also skipped on water.
Marglo discovered round rocks make stone entries to his cave that did not cut his feet, didn't track mud into cave, and his kids could play games (Marglo invented the game Marbles btw) ...later these round rocks "flew" more true from a sling.

I made a suggestion for Lee to test, we will see.

20" barrels of the same "configuration" most often did better with slug, and buck loadings - meaning they shot both these loads better than the 18" or 18.5".

Steve

[Rupestris]

Thanks Steve.
Once again, I ponied up the money too soon. :p Maybe I should have gone with the 20" RS. Same thing happened when I bought my 1911. Eh, hindsight - right?

I don't see any pricey tools in my future but I'll keep that one in mind.

'Til then I'll continue to BA/UU/R untill I find a slug it likes. In my cozy (Real estate term for tiny) bungalow, buck should work fine for now. Besides, if I hit a stud just right with a slug it might move the house off it's foundation.

Chris

[sm]

Rupestris,
I'm going to wait for Lee to share more.

You are on the right track as to testing various loads for yourself. I know you understand this, and includes when you find a load, running back and getting that lot number.

For education purposes-

I've not taken Physics, math is not my strong point. Still just living this long I can see the "physics" and "math" in a concrete manner.

We often use the example of a garden hose to describe "patterns" produced by "choke" ( restrictions) caused by putting finger over the end of hose , or adjusting the nozzle. We also use the garden hose to describe lead, follow thru, swing, and not stopping the swing.

Get a piece of Clear tubing, various sizes are better. Now using something inserted, say a piece of PVC , smaller clear tubing, metal - whatever to replicate a choke.

Where I am going is using clear tubing and water to illustrate what is going inside a chamber, forcing cone, bore and choke. Not exact - the idea is there though.

Even with a short piece(s) and using for a baseline one piece unaltered, then playing with this...one can get an idea as to how this works.

Interesting we used a pipe with water to illustrate bandwith in a CIS/IT class.

Heck even straws under the kitchen faucet reveal a lot. Diameter and length make a difference. Take a bigger straw say from Sonic or McDonald's, run water thru it. Now insert a smaller straw from Burger King inside - repeat. Note a difference.

But I am the guy that took shells apart, measured and compared. I kept pieces of barrels shortened to compare fixed chokes, later the screw in chokes when a barrel was cut and that muzzle end with thread was waste.

Just poking various wads into these revealed a lot. Granted things differ with pressure, rate of powder burn, payload...still quite a few "A-ha's" were spoken.

Brister was correct in stating "Art and Science" in regard to Shotgunning. So were other folks like Olin and many others...

Steve

[sm]

Since I am sharing how my brain works...

There is something about the Win-Choke that is unique. It is not as long as many chokes on the market. I happen to like the Win-Choke, one reason is not a secret as I have shared how I like external knurled to protect the muzzle from dings (less money , and less time/ hassle to get a new choke than fix muzzle / crown). Not keeping up with a wrench is good, the Win-Choke wrench is easier to tote IMO.

There is *something* just before the Win-Choke in a Win barrel, or at least there used to be.

My NuLines in a SX1 differ as well.

I wish I had the time, money and equipment to piddle with this. Just curious.

Then recall the Russians won the Olympics using a odd choke in their guns...visible from looking and not a screw in choke.

I am looking for the end of a 1300 barrel that someone shortened. I want the muzzle end with the threads and one choke. Just that last 6" - 8" of barrel if you will.

I have a 870 Express Muzzle end with threads and choke...Just curious. ;)

I wish I was closer to where Lee Lives and we both could run down and see Red Lyle...We gots questions and theories. :uhoh: :D

Always had a *idea* or three in regard to fixed choked bbls...for a reason of course. Pertains to "serious loads" and other stuff too.

Somebody take a off the shelf load of 00, Federal, Win, and Rem.
Also take a target load in 2 3/4 and 3dr equiv. I used AA when they were one pc compression formed hulls.

Now follow me...get a notebook. Mark the shells, shoot on the same day to replicate conditions. Shoot at same distance...baseline is consistent.
Same gun, bbl, choke...consistent.

Take the Pellets and buffering (if applicable) from 00 loads and weigh. Remove the pellets from target loads and swap.

Fire the Factory loadings as be - make notes on pattern paper at what distance.

Now fire the 'swapped' loads. Meaning the 00 were shot using a "target loading", and vice versa.

I know what my T&E revealed, newer loading should give similar results. Interesting Results.

There is a 18" barrel that came off a Dept Issued Shotgun. 2 3/4" only. The Step inside one ususally sees is not there. In fact there is a gradual taper, if you will, extending just past to where a forcing cone is...normally found. We made the changes to this barrel btw.

Patterns great with #1, 00, buckshot and with Federal Slugs...just the plain old Foster type. Winchester comes in Second, Remington a distance third. [note differences in diameter of slugs and thickeness of wads in pellet loads *GRIN* In addition it patterns quite well with Target loads and as we all know the phenomeon of #6 works in any 12 bore, no matter bore diameter or choke...patterns well. This one happens to do well with #5 shot too.

Technically this was a "Cyl" bore - actually it has 5 pts of constriction starting best recall about 2" near muzzle end. I have seen some barrels with fixed chokes run 5" to as little as 1" on "contrictions". Think about that a bit.
Think about Jugged Chokes, Swaged Chokes...Card shooters....umm- huh?

Lee and I have - for a LOT less monies - gotten some remarkable results with various loading without having to have someone do "their magic". On one gun all I spent was $ 8.

Just something else to ponder and scratch chins about. ;)

[Lee Lapin]

The REALLY funny thing about this one is that I had also considered shipping it off to Hans Vang for his tender ministrations (that is to say, having it backbored). Good thing I had its bore measured first and saved wasted postage both ways...

Steve, I started out my 870 experimenting with an early model of the 870HD, before it was so marked. This is an older Express gun I bought gently used, a pre-dimple, pre-plastic, pre-J lock version, it came with the 18" CYL bore bead sighted barrel and no magazine extension. I sent the gun off to Scattergun Technologies (tells how long ago that was) for the installation of a set of their Trac-Loc sights. Then the barrel went to Patternmaster for installation of one of their magic choke tubes, what was then sold as the Police Fist tube. All this is ancient history now, you understand, companies have changed hands, products have changed names and all is different in that world now. Even some of the people who were important to the processes then have gone on.

Anyway, that 18" barrel with its Police Fist tube and the then-available version of Federal H132-00 Tactical low recoil buckshot loads would throw nice tight patterns, index card pattern material, out at 15 and 20 and even 25 yards. It cost me getting a forcing cone job done, plus installation of choke tubes, and a hundred dollar choke tube to install to get those results, but by george I had results. Even if it did mean spending more than $200 modifying that barrel's internal geometry, the results were there. Funny thing was that almost no one would believe those patterns were printing at those ranges until they saw it done, and that meant I got to demonstrate the gun a lot. That and my own playing with the gun as usual meant that a case of Federal H132-00 didn't last long.

It happened that 3-gun matches were popular in my area, and one of my friends opened a business catering to the growing 3-gun crowd. Early along he began stocking a brand of shotshell I had not seen before- Estate low recoil 00 buck, specifically. The fact that it was $3 for a 10-round box at retail intrigued me. So I got a box to try out in the wonder gun.

No dice there, patterns were strings about three inches wide across or up and down the target paper. The Patternmaster tubes were (and still are) wad retarding choke tubes with no actual constriction in them. They work by delaying slightly the exit of the wad out the muzzle as the gun is fired, preventing the wad from disrupting the pattern as it exits the bore. Interesting concept, and it does work- but producing those tubes must be a manufacturing nightmare. AND YOU CAN'T SHOOT SLUGS THROUGH THEM... not good as far as supporting the versatility of the gun is concerned.

So, I resigned myself to having to shoot expensive buckshot through my expensive choke tube to get those magic patterns.

But then this little voice began to tell me that I should try a regular MOD RemChoke tube with that cheap-o Estate buckshot. The little voice was from a guy from Raleigh named Mark Penman, who (coincidentally enough) was also interested in getting extended range with buckshot, and who was also experimenting with same. You can see his writings from the time, preserved at http://www.jtk3.com/laissezfirearm/ if you are interested.

Lo and behold, he was right. A plain jane $12 RemChoke MOD tube with that cheap-o Estate buckshot produced the same kind of index- card patterns at 25 yards as the high priced spread did.

Too bad Estate sold out to Blount, which then sold its sporting goods line to Alliant, which moved the Estate manufacturing equipment next door to the Federal plant. All this meant the demise of the best cheap buckshot load I have ever seen, of course. Bidness being bidness and all. I still have a few boxes of the old Estate load (the new stuff is an impostor) with the loooong shot cup and lots of grex to pad its extra-hard buckshot pellets. Anyone wants a recipe for a high performance buckshot load, this is it.

I am willing to bet that when some of the 'new' Federal Flite-Control wad buck loads show up, they will look VERY familiar to this old Estate fan, a sharp pocket knife will quickly tell the tale.

lpl/nc

edited to add- story on Estate buckshot and its modern impostor :http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=73967&highlight=estate+buckshot+alliant

[sm]

:D
Lee my friend,
We really need to get hooked up. Like many have said about me and them...that old saw :

There are those folks that will bail you out of jail, then there are friends sitting in the jail cell with you waiting for El Tejon conversing - " damn- that was fun! :uhoh: :p

Yes I remember Scattergun Technologies, they had a very very good product, not the same now as they did since being bought out. See- I can be polite, I didn't mention anything about I will NOT buy anything from the folks that bought them. :)


New Folks: I am NOT playing favorites - just This chart is handy and easy to see- http://www.colonialarms.com/chokespecs.html

12 gauge since this is what we are talking about. For too long the "standard" has been .729.
Take a look at what a Cyl vs IC vs Mod constrictions give one.

True Bore Diameters are NOT always the "standard" , Colonial makes mention of this in the reading - as do other folks.

Go here: http://www.trulockchokes.com/chokeinfo.asp For more reading.

So if one has 20 points constriction (.020) the Charts previously show this to be "modified" . Granted one shows .019 and the other .020...

Notice the reading and the chart? .729 "becomes" .710 and .709 respectfully.

What if that bore is NOT .729? Instead the TRUE Bore diameter is .735 ? Backbored or Overbored as they call it??
Maybe even as much as .740...take a look at Colonials chart- darn near Extra Full "choke" of a 10 ga Think about that and remember this 870 bbl we are talking about is a 12 ga

.740 minus .020 = .720 which according to a chart "says" Improved Cyl.

Confused yet? :p

Been a shot-shell reloader for a l-o-n-g time, started with paper shells. Never got into reloading Metallic, or got into Blackpowder.

Those of you that do can relate. Parallels exist. Lets forget rifling and twist rates if you will. The "payload" needs to fit the bore. Folks match the bullet diameter to mate to "lands" and "grooves" if you will. ALSO is the matching up of powder and burn rates.

While all that marinates...

Anyone ever shoot the "same" target load at clay birds only difference being one is a paper hull and the other a plastic hull? Paper was softer in felt recoil wasn't it?

When the earth was flat I made some "less felt recoil" buckshot loads using paper hulls. All I did was swap the buckshot and grex buffering from a Win loading into a AA paper hull target loading. Less felt recoil and pattens tighter.

So...I took apart the Win 00 buck load, put ALL these components ( except primer) into a once fired AA Paper Hull. Still less felt recoil and my patterns were a wee bit tighter.

Plastic hulls cause gritty, rusty chambers , even just sitting in a clean and dry chamber they will.

Paper hulls do NOT. The wax coating prevents this. *grin*.

Always thought Paper Hulled Buckshot and Slug loads be good for chambered rounds ...I mean look at how many single shot shotguns had nice chambers with them rounds after all them years... *grin*

Now I have not played with the new low recoil offerings. I have nothing against them. My brain is however so used to thinking out of the box.

Lee mentioned this earlier and is worth repeating. Some low recoil loads are 1) no longer avail, 2) have changed specs ,3) Changed specs perhaps company bought out and changed hands.

I pattern loads and know what a given barrel / choke will do. I will obtain more of same lot number when I find what mates up best.

Mental notes / written notes on what works with what, and that barrel/ chokes performance with second, third best loadings.

Just regular OTC loadings, so if I need, I have an idea what works if caught out somewhere and need to buy. Even if all the gas station has is my "third" preference, I have an idea of that loads performance.

This extends to being handed a gun I have never shot...if there is a choice of Fed, Win, or Rem loads...I can get pretty lucky as to which of these choices "may" work best from whatever brand of gun I am going to use.

Yes, there was a reason when handed a 1300 to investigate rabid dogs on some property I chose the "old rusty" slugs instead of the newer ones of a different brand.

After checking this out we did fire this gun...sure enough them older slugs with some rust on the brass, shot better groups than the new ones.

Fella bought some new slugs of the same brand as the "old rusty" ones. ;)

Gee - this is fun! You don't get stuff like this off the TV...Gotta get stuff like this off the Internet :D

Regards,

Steve


Dave....Dave....you can open the bay doors now... let some fresh air in ...

[JohnBT]

If that barrel doesn't work out for you, I believe I could use it since I don't have a shot longer than 10 yards inside or outside my house. The entire lot isn't but 25.5' x 90'.

Meanwhile, I'm curious to see the outcome of your ammo testing.

John

[sm]

THR got a Stan Baker Bore Diameter Tool ?

Tamara - you got one at Coal Creek?

See I was thinking :uhoh: Lee and I met up in Knoxville. I really need to check out Nashville and Knoxville anyway - Oleg's fault. :p Shameless plug I'm adoptable and looking for a job.

Anywho...Lee and I play with the new Stan Baker Tool Tamara's boss was so nice to order...all in the name of Research of course...that is a tax write off ain't it?

And we piddle...err...find a back corner of the Range and do Research on this. That and we don't run off other range customers and Tamara can deny knowing them "two idiots" out there. :D

I got some extra Ramien Noodles and Frozen Pizza I can bring.

There has got to be a way I can make money doing stuff like this. :p

[Spec ops Grunt]

Erm, uh, whats a bbl? :o

[sm]

Erm, uh, whats a bbl?

That's Pet Peevian for barrel. :p

Yeah I know, I made straight A's in spelling, vocabulary and such. Then I get older and start doing abbreviations for a business I was in , then in school we did abbreviations for things. Get even older started doing symbols for words...

I actually looked up the spelling for "change" one day, for two years I had been using the Delta symblol (triangle) - not having to actually write it, the word "change" looked funny. Computers with spell-check did not / does not help.

You know you are old when you have a dictionary and the word "Catch 22" is not in there. Of course perhaps it has to do with the fact I remember when the book "Catch 22" came out.

Shotgunning - like most things and the people that participate get lazy and have a jargon of its/ their own.

There is that part about different parts of the world do visit THR, TFL and other forums to remember. I am used to temps being Farenheight, instead of Celcius.

Hey Lee! See how that barrel does with some 70mm 12 bore in Affican shot sizes :D

More reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

[riverdog]

bbl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bbl) defined.

In reference to petroleum, bbl is an abbreviation for 1 barrel, equal to exactly 42 U.S. gallons, or to approximately 159 liters.

Large petroleum production and consumption figures are usually expressed in 1 Mbbl, or 1 million barrels.

The term 'bbl' actually expands to 'Blue Barrel' because the barrels Standard Oil used to ship were blue in color.

In the automotive world, the abbreviation also means "barrels", but in the sense of carburetor barrels.

See also: barrel (unit)

It is also an abbreviation for "be back later."

With every other group abbreviating barrels to "bbl", it only made sense for those in the firearms field to also abbreviate the same.

[Jeff Timm]

As I recall, a shotgun pattern spreads at 1" per yard. So at 25 yards you should have a pattern 25" in diameter. Now if my precise calculation is correct, thats about 78 square inches.

Now I got a memeory like one 'a them big grey animals, and a 12 gauge 00 buck load has 22 pellets, or 20 in a Reduced Recoil load.

Dividing those out, you should see a pellet in every 3.5 Sq. In. Now if you are like me and use the "poor man's pattern board" (a piece of 36" brown wrapping paper, folded at an angle to form a square, and cut, the folded again and again to give you 8 equal sectors) you should see two pellets in each sector, and the remaining 6 should be found precisly on the folds dividing the sectors. :neener:

What kind of pattern were you expecting?

Geoff
Who likes to visualize these things.

[NMshooter]

This thread reminds me of that Mossberg 590 that I got rid of.

The distributor did not have the exact model I wanted (parkerized with factory ghost ring sights) but they had a few left overs from a special order that were basically the same thing, so I figured hey, the price is the same, why not?

I do not know who ordered those shotguns from Mossberg, it was the only 590 I have ever seen that had a screw in choke tube. And it was a most interesting choke tube, one that made a 18" wide by 6" high pattern at 25 yards with all the different kinds of buckshot I put through it. Shot slugs respectably too.

Should have looked at that choke closer when I had the chance...

Traded it for a 870PM.

[Lee Lapin]

JohnBT,

Kind of you to offer to relieve me of this horrible burden, but i think I will torture myself with it a while longer. Besides, my wife likes it and doesn't care what it does with buckshot at more than 30 feet or so, and I had already installed a set of tritium sights on it and zeroed it for KO slugs...

Jeff,

That 'one inch spread per yard of range' is a rule of thumb, and like most rules of thumb it often depends on whose thumb one uses. In fact it seems to work reasonably well often enough with cylinder bore barrels, but when you start changing the chokes, forcing cones etc. then the rule of thumb doesn't hold too well.

I assure you I am not man enough to shoot a 12 ga. load of 00 buck comprised of 22 pellets, or even 20 8^). The 00 loads I shoot as a rule have 9 pellets. That will play havoc with your calculations of pellet distribution, I fear.

The kind of patterns I was hoping for from this barrel were about 10-12" or so at 25 yards out of a fixed ImpCyl choke. I have gotten that result fairly reliably out of other 18- 20" Remington barrels with fixed ImpCyl chokes using various 9 pellet 00 loads, and I don't think that is an unrealistic expectation. What I really like are 3-4" patterns at 25 yards, but it often takes a MOD choke to produce those. I like sights on a working shotgun precisely because it can be easy to miss with one which is producing the kinds of patterns I happen to like.

And this is not to say that those who prefer tight buckshot patterns from defensive shotguns are right and everyone else is wrong, either. Some folks LIKE scatterguns, and it is for each person to decide what solutions best fit their own perceived defensive needs. I am no arbiter thereof, i am only able to determine what I prefer- and not always able to produce those results either, I might add. That is why it is always wise to qualify most statements about what shotguns 'will do' under a given set of circumstances. Every shotgun barrel is an individual entity and it is not possible to make too many blanket statements about them.

sm,

I would be happy to meander all about the country to help you engage in objective research regarding shotgun performance. But you have to ask my boss about that, and see if she can spare me from my househusbandly dogsitting duties for the alloted time. Sounds like fun to me, especially if there is expensive equipment involved that someone else provides...

lpl/nc

[Rupestris]

As I recall, a shotgun pattern spreads at 1" per yard. So at 25 yards you should have a pattern 25" in diameter. Now if my precise calculation is correct, thats about 78 square inches.

Here's a random pix of what Hornady TAP patern's like out of a 18.5" Rem IC bbl.

The large hole is where the wad punched the paper low and slightly left.

[sm]

...We got Porpoises
nuh uh uh...I spelled Porpoise that way on purpose, private joke...neener

Lee,

You think I am stupid? Your wife is on this deal. We need a PhD. to write this stuff up all. We need a ladies perspective. I mean she can get a PAID leave to do research applicable to her Work, and we get to play...err...do our Research.

Instead of The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds- by Paul Zindel-
Which I always thought was a cool title, but then again I don't think Zindel would much appreciate it if we used it ...

...Brister done took another great title in his great work...

We do...ready?

The Effect of Spewing Lead Onto Recidivism

re·cid·i·vism (r-sd-vzm)
n.

1. A tendency to lapse into a previous pattern of behavior, especially a pattern of criminal habits.


See, the parts about "previous pattern" and "pattern of criminal behavior"...well by golly, The good Doctor gets lots of monies on her published works , big raise, tenure, ... and WE also get something to share with shotgunners.

Yeah I know, brilliant huh?

You don't get stuff like this off the TV folks!!

:D

Steve

[Dave McCracken]

(Wiping darn good coffee off monitor).....

"The Effect of Spewing Lead onto Recividism" is a good working title.

So is, "Rehabilitation through Re-incarnation".

[Lee Lapin]

Rupestris,
Try that barrel with Kent/Brenneke KO slugs, if you haven't already done so. Not only are they reasonably priced, I have yet (knock wood) to find a shotgun that didn't get along well with them. AND they are nice hard lead alloy, sharp shouldered projectiles that cut nice (big) clean-edged holes in things. Even Jim Cirillo likes that idea...
http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/store/products/productDisplay~BRENNEKE+USA~KO+SLUG~productID~293679.htm

Steve,
Consultation on the research project proceeds apace. Stay tuned...


Dave,
Don't forget to clean the keyboard too 8^).

lpl/nc

[JohnBT]

"Kind of you to offer to relieve me of this horrible burden, but i think I will torture myself with it a while longer."

I understand completely, I love projects. Projects = more tools and more range time. John

[NMshooter]

OK, that one was special sm.

:D

You deserve a prize, what kind I am not sure, nor am I sure I am old enough to know about it, but that was definitely a winner.

:evil:

Think this weekend I need to break out the old scattergun and do some more work, never been very good with that bead sight.

And I definitely need to order some of those KO slugs, Foster slugs just do not go through as much stuff.

Edit to add: Thank you for the link Lee, that is a good price. Yes, I had to look at the cannon, but no, I did not buy it.:D

[sm]

.
.
.
998. I will give a warning so Dave don't spew coffee.
999. I will give a warning so Dave don't spew coffee.
1000. I will give a warning so Dave don't spew coffee.

Whew!! <shakes hand to get rid of cramps>

Thanks for kind words.

Ought to hear what I have in mind for the Video! :D

Steve!!!

:uhoh:

*kicks eraser* I gotta go now, Dave wants me clean erasers now...

[sm]

The Effects of Spewing Lead Onto Recidivism Lee Lapin and Phil Carson

Cover
Credits
Preface
Chapters
Index
Comments
Cover

Copyright 2005 - Phil Carson

I'm thinking, just in case. Has to do with a phone call; text and Pictures.

[Nematocyst]

We need a PhD. to write this stuff up all. Hey, I've got a FUD, and I'll do the write up for 2/3 what Lee's wife will do it for. :D

After all, I'm an independent educator, not a tenured prof, and we come cheap!

Besides, then I could play, too...er, do research with you guys.

AND, I got a new 870P with an 18" bbl that may need testing with your super duper diameter tester, so ...

When do I start?

:cool:

Nem