[jeepmor]

I've been reading some threads on the dreaded black talon and saw several mentions about it being armor piercing. Of course, i don't buy this as it was mentioned that body armor is tested with ball ammo because it penetrates better.

However, my question is WHAT does it take to breech body armor? I know that FN 5x7 does, but it's a 2300fps aluminum/copper round...I think. Most pistol rounds only reach about 1300fps, hardly more from what I've read. Anyhow, I do know the FN 5x7 will breech armor because that's one if it's selling points in it's own ad.

Just curious, no clandestine plans. When I first started looking at pistols, a guy in the gun shop was pointing me in the direction of a makarov for a solid budget gun and took me to the ammo aisle and pointed out a few brands in 9mm that he said WOULD pierce body armor, they were not Makarov 9x18though. I forgot the brand.

Is there a brand of ammo out there that makes this claim, besides the FN 5x7, of course. Bet the feds would be all over that, it would be a liberal media bonanza for sure.

jeepmor

[grimjaw]

The Makarov he was pointing you to *won't* be the gun to penetrate most body armor, no matter what ammo you use in it. I suggest you visit a different gun store.

jmm

[jeepmor]

I knew that but did not state it very well, he must have been pointing out 9mm Luger stuff I imagine, maybe that super 9mm stuff, not sure. Anyhow, back to the topic, what penetrates body armor?

Is there a speed/weight threshold?
Is it the shape of the bullet?
Is it the energy level?
Is it the construction of the bullet? ie, steel core, mercury filled hollowpoints, or just pure green, glowing, kryptonite.

jeepmor

[Bob R]

I have heard an icepick or stilletto type knife will work. But that was a longtime ago, I don't know if that still holds true or not anymore.

bob

[psyopspec]

A more appropriate term is "bullet resistant vest" since any level of body armor can be penetrated by the right ballistics.

In order to answer the question "what penetrates bullet-proof vests," you need to decide which level of armor you're asking about.

http://njlawman.com/Feature%20Pieces/Body-Armor-Levels.jpg

Most body armor is not rated for puncture resistance. A level IIA or II vest is not overly difficult to pierce with a knife. Certain occupations (such as prison guard) require a different type of vest that is specifically made to stop attacks with sharp objects. IIRC, these vests are not usually rated to stop bullets though. With my limited understanding of physics, the difference is that that a semi-solid object will immediately slow a bullet, whereas a thrust with a knife has a solid and continuing force driving it, meaning that the knife attack is not relying solely on it's own velocity for movement. That and a sharp point allow the piercing of kevlar.

In the case of FN 57, the armor-piercing ammo that gave the gun it's pants-peeing reputation among blissninnies is now banned and expensive if you don't reload your own. Downloaded ammunition is still manufactured and sold.

[max popenker]

Makarov not an AP gun...I know
Not exactly that; there is at least one 9x18 AP round developed for Mak in Russia, the 9x18 PBM. It has a hardened steel penetrator inside the lightweight bulet, and at shorter ranges can easily rip through soft body armor otherwise sufficient to stop even biger pistol rounds.
But i believe you will not find the PBM ammo in your *mart or Cabelas shops ;)

[jeepmor]

This board is such a resource, it's like the library or something, but all I have to do is ask.

Thanks folks. Plus, if I get an FN 5x7, I'll be reloading my own, pants peeing cartridges is all I will load, powder is the cheapest component. Did not know that particular point about it. Did get to handle one when I picked up my Taurus. NICE. Mini rifle round, doesn't look like ALL that, but you can see how it just sings along at mach 2+.

So is it the bullet itself that's changed, or just the powder charge. Drop the velocity enough with the right powder and it won't do it's job on standard issue body armo, I can see that. The physics is easy for me intuitively, I have a mechanical engineering background. This is where absorbing a bullets energy relative to the resistance to knife penetration make perfect sense to me. If you'd like me to elaborate on a theoretical level, please ask. I'll revisit this thread in a day or three. Thanks so much for the chart.


jeepmor

[doubleaes2]

What about the CZ52?

[cookekdjr]

5 or 6 years ago a deputy friend of mine set his county-issued vest on a chair. He shot the vest with his cz-52 (don't know the ammo brand, assume it was s&b) and the bullet went through both sides of the vest.
Don't know the rating of the vest, just know it was typical law enforcement issue circa 1999-2000.
-David

[PCRCCW]

The Tokerav round or 7.62 x 25 in the FMJ chambering is Armor Piercing, or can be. Yould really be surprised what is armor piercing..or level 2 piercing anyway.
At a local shop they got an older level 2 vest.....the Tokerav went through both sides everywhere they tried it.....
Federal +P+ 115 JHP's went through one side and mushroomed against the other. That was a surprise. But they chronoed the stuff at over 1400 FPS from a 9mm 1911 5" barrel.
The 5.7 is so small and so fast it will penetrate more than the Tokerav, less frontal area overall and more spees means less resistance....more penetration.
Shoot well.

[bubbygator]

There is also a really easy way - but if I told you, I'd have to kill you. :)

[Moonclip]

Very hot 357mag or even 9mm can penetrate quite well. I have some Norma 357mag 125gr with a pointed bullet that will penetrate a aluminum CO2 cylinder with ease, it usually takes centerfire rifles to do so.

I'm surprised the anti gunners never went after the guns like the Tokarev chambered in 7.62x25 but I guess they are not that popular among the criminal element in the USA and it is not generally common knowledge I suppose that this caliber can penetrate more than normal.

As these guns so chambered have been on the market a while I guess there has not been a case yet where one was used to penetrate a vest but I'm sure when it eventually happens there will be a push to ban or regulate then by somebody.

[CombatArmsUSAF]

Typically, a rifle round will penetrate faster than a pistol round. Ballistics will change with loads, types of projectiles, etc.. But I now my vest (IIIA with plate) is rated up to .44 Mag w/o plate and .308 Winchester with the plate. Government 9mm, which is loaded slightly hotter than normal, won't penetrate it. Then again most cops don't wear this type of military body armor.

[Azrael256]

set his county-issued vest on a chair. He shot the vest with his cz-52 (don't know the ammo brand, assume it was s&b) and the bullet went through both sides of the vest. Chairs aren't people. Your body is actually part of the equation when it comes to vests. Try putting the same vest over some wet clay or ballistic gel and you'll have a very different result.

[trueblue1776]

find an old vest and shoot it with stuff, .22mag is pretty impressive against a few kinds of vests, and it's little. I haven't shot one with .17hmr yet, I'm guessing it would go through anything less than a Lvl II. A 30-30 went through a lvl II like nothing at all.

Five-seveN ammo: I like it, but not because of the hype, there have been ar-15 platform pistols for a while. Someone tell me .223 isn't as dangerous as 5.7x28.

Armor, is a funny thing, funny opionions and ideas around it too. Find some old armor and play, new armor is so cheap old armor is nearly free.

[doubleaes2]

Howabout a 22 Reed Express?


http://www.reedsammo.com/Page.html


.22 Reed Express

Currently we are doing load development for the .22 Reed Express. Barrels are available initially for the CZ-52 and are a drop in component. The .22 Reed Express is based on the 7.62x25 case necked down to .22 caliber, and the shoulder blown forward. Applications include target, varmint, and small game hunting. Cost for the CZ-52 barrels is 210.00 We also have barrels for the T/C Contender as well in both blue and stainless steel for 250.00.

*BRASS & DIES ARE NOW AVAILABLE IN THE ONLINE STORE



The preliminary load data is done, all the loads are from a 10" Contender barrel 10 shot strings average velocity. All the loads are from a 5" BBL in the CZ-52 10 shot avarage.

10" BBL 5” BBL

30g – 2782 2513

33g – 2733 2500

35g – 2721 2478

40g – 2596 2200

45g – 2470 2170

50g – 2424 2080

53g – 2362 2000

55g – 2302 1985

60g – 2228 (Too long to fit in the magazine)



The 60g spire point bullets are too long for use in the CZ-52. To get them to fit into the magazine they take up too much space in the case and reduce the volume to a point where only low pressure loads can be used. Load data is available from us and we include a basic copy in the die set. We'll be expanding the load data and sending a revised copy to everyone who purchased the barrels and dies.





What's really impressive to us is that the velocities on the lower weight bullets are running the same as a .22 Hornet out of a 22" barrel.

Point of note, the FN Five-SeveN reports 2200FPS from a 5" barrel with a 27g bullet, the .22 Reed Express is able to push a 45g bullet at the same speed from the same length barrel.

[kent m. lane]

I have read the KGB had some round [small] that would go through a standard vest also the steel arrows from a shotgun they are called flechetts the spelling for the arrows might be wrong.

[Rem700SD]

"Howabout a 22 Reed Express?"
What's the case head size for the tokorev round similar to? Sounds like it may be adaptable to a Glock 20(10mm)...very...disturbing/interesting?

[goon]

Rem700SD - The head size on the 7.62x25 is closer to a 9mm. It is smaller than 10mm for sure.

[Apple a Day]

Kent,
I think you are referring to the Russian PSM. It's like a Makarov that's even a little smaller. It shoots the 5.45x18mm cartridge (rather than a 9x18mm Makarov) and according to Jane's can punch through a lot of layers of Kevlar at close ranges.

[max popenker]

Kent,
I think you are referring to the Russian PSM. It's like a Makarov that's even a little smaller. It shoots the 5.45x18mm cartridge (rather than a 9x18mm Makarov) and according to Jane's can punch through a lot of layers of Kevlar at close ranges.

5.45x18 MPTs ammo is capable of penetrating about 18-20 layers of Kevlar at short tranges (5 meters or less). However, terminal effectiveness of this round is marginal to say the least, there were more than few encounters when bad guys continued to fight having full chest of 5.45x18s, then died "sudenly" from internal bleeding after 10 to 30 minutes since being shot.

For true AP performance, you need either special AP bullet (like Russia 9x19 7N21 which is 9 Luger +P++), or magnum-class round with solid brass pointed slug, or a rifle.

[Optical Serenity]

Exactly why my vest has a steel plate and a titanium plate in the front....there are also two soft pacs too...some combo that the manufacturer came up with...hopefully i'll never have to find out if it actually stops the rifle rounds they claim it does :) Although the combo that I wear was put on clay and it stopped it.

[whm1974]

'm surprised the anti gunners never went after the guns like the Tokarev chambered in 7.62x25 but I guess they are not that popular among the criminal element in the USA and it is not generally common knowledge I suppose that this caliber can penetrate more than normal.


The 7.62x25 was never developed or advetise as a AP round.

Five-seveN ammo: I like it, but not because of the hype, there have been ar-15 platform pistols for a while. Someone tell me .223 isn't as dangerous as 5.7x28.

I would say more dangerous. Offhand I would say more people own AR-15 pistols then Five-Sevens. Plus .223 is so common that noone will notice if you buy some.

-Bill

[Preacherman]

What penetrates bullet proof vests?

Vest proof bullets?

:neener:

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Most any good Bowie knife with a back cut.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Manedwolf]

I've been reading some threads on the dreaded black talon and saw several mentions about it being armor piercing. Of course, i don't buy this as it was mentioned that body armor is tested with ball ammo because it penetrates better.

However, my question is WHAT does it take to breech body armor? I know that FN 5x7 does, but it's a 2300fps aluminum/copper round...I think. Most pistol rounds only reach about 1300fps, hardly more from what I've read. Anyhow, I do know the FN 5x7 will breech armor because that's one if it's selling points in it's own ad.

Just curious, no clandestine plans. When I first started looking at pistols, a guy in the gun shop was pointing me in the direction of a makarov for a solid budget gun and took me to the ammo aisle and pointed out a few brands in 9mm that he said WOULD pierce body armor, they were not Makarov 9x18though. I forgot the brand.

Is there a brand of ammo out there that makes this claim, besides the FN 5x7, of course. Bet the feds would be all over that, it would be a liberal media bonanza for sure.

jeepmor

There's a lot of claims that hot 7.62x25 out of a CZ-52 will go through a Type II vest.

[Optical Serenity]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

[McCall911]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

+1

[telomerase]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?__________________


Because they've been common for 30 years? Maybe I'm just more safety oriented than most, but I have always worn one around new shooters and/or public pistol ranges. Nothing stops bad people from using them, either.

When vests are outlawed... oh, but you've probably heard that one.

[whm1974]

There's a lot of claims that hot 7.62x25 out of a CZ-52 will go through a Type II vest.

Considering that a lot of ComBloc mil surpluse and Chinese ammo is steel jacketed and/or core, I think that "normal" 7.62x25 can penatrate a type II vest.

-Bill

[doubleaes2]

Its the same as 9mm. I have a 7.62 and a 9mm upper for my cz52, and both rounds use the same mag. Also when you butt the two round's bases together, there is no difference in diameter.


"Howabout a 22 Reed Express?"
What's the case head size for the tokorev round similar to? Sounds like it may be adaptable to a Glock 20(10mm)...very...disturbing/interesting?

[grimjaw]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

Curiosity?
Concerns about their reliability/effectiveness if I'm going to buy one?

Could be malicious reasons, too, I suppose.

jmm

[jeepmor]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

Just curious if there would be a physics discussion or not. I have a mechanical engineering background and this type of physics has always intrigued me. Discussion was started to learn more about the engineering that goes into this type of protection.

The physics of dissipating the projectile's energy across a large enough surface area while simultaneouly preventing too much deflection to cause bodiy injury is fascinating. Not too mention preventing the puncture of the material dissipating the energy, neat stuff. I did not know there were so many classifications either. Makes sense now, but I did not know what data was avaialable, so I asked.

How does the kevlar stand up after it's been wet? Nylon materials (kevlar is one of these) usually lose strength when wet, is this factored in.

jeepmor

[nightman]

Check out the box of truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

[Optical Serenity]

Do as the bad guys do to us cops, just aim at the head... That is one reason why we continually train to shoot one to the head, two to the chest...and then again one to the head....that formula takes care of the vest situation.

[Moonclip]

I never said the Tok round was designed to go through a vest but the fact remains it is more capable of doing so than other rounds therefore a possible topic for the anti gunners once they decide to move on to another sensational topic other than the 50BMG of late. As for steel CORE 7.62x25, I doubt much if any is around as steel core pistol rounds are a big no no in the USA.

[jd25q]

But I now my vest (IIIA with plate) is rated up to .44 Mag w/o plate and .308 Winchester with the plate. Government 9mm, which is loaded slightly hotter than normal, won't penetrate it. Then again most cops don't wear this type of military body armor.

1. I can't imagine why you included the last sentence.

2. Nothing in the original question dealt with what it would take to kill an LEO.

3. Some questions are better left unanswered, particularly when you don't know the audience.

If it sounds like I took it personally I do.

This board is such a resource, it's like the library or something, but all I have to do is ask.jeepmor

Not always a good thing. Why would body armor penetration be anyone's prime criteria for selecting a personal defense round? The characteristics that make it work would certainly make it a poor performer on the 99.99% of unarmored threats (relative to traditional handgun ammunition).

[benEzra]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that any ammunition made of hard materials (which would allow a handgun bullet to penetrate a vest that would otherwise be proof against that caliber) are banned by a 1986 Federal law. That law was extended to .223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, and .308/7.62x51 in 1994 by a BATFE administrative ruling, which is why you can't buy steel-core 7.62x39 or tungsten-core .223 or .308.

Story of the 1986 law here: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

A FiveSeven will NOT penetrate a Level II or IIIA vest with civilian-available ammunition, per the BATFE, and will not penetrate IIIA with any ammunition not made of hard materials banned by the 1986 law. The Brady Bunch propaganda video showing a FiveSeven penetrating a vest with "civilian" ammunition was an old IIA vest, not even rated to stop .357 magnum, as I recall. The CZ-52 is probably similar, I suspect.

The widely touted armor piercing capabilities of the military FiveSeven round have been published far and wide, but that ammunition is not, and has never been, available to non-LEO civilians in the United States, as it falls under the 1986 AP handgun bullet ban.

ANY centerfire rifle I know of will penetrate up to level IIIA like it's not there. To stop a rifle round, you need a vest with level III or IV plates, or full external III or IV body armor. III will stop low- and intermediate-powered rifle rounds like 7.62x39mm, .223, and .308; IV is rated to stop .30-06 tungsten-core military armor piercing. This is why Ted Kennedy's little bill last year authorizing the Attorney General to ban any ammunition capable of penetrating a vest was so ludicrous; all centerfire rifle calibers will do so.

U.S. military body armor provides protection from IIIA threats from all angles, and III to IV threats from the front and back, IIRC. (There's a video circulating on the 'net of a soldier's body armor stopping a round of 7.62x54 tungsten-core AP, which is comparable to .30-06 AP.)

The myth of Black Talons being "armor piercing" is absolutely ridiculous. It penetrates no better than ordinary FMJ ammunition of the same caliber (actually, it probably penetrates even less than target FMJ, since BT's were relatively low-energy rounds in most calibers).

[Newton]

Firearms enthusiasts will tend to explore all aspects of shooting and firearms ownership in general, I think it's only natural that they will be curious about a device that is specifically designed to defeat the primary purpose of their beloved projectiles - namely, poking holes in things.

[Moonclip]

1. I can't imagine why you included the last sentence.

2. Nothing in the original question dealt with what it would take to kill an LEO.

3. Some questions are better left unanswered, particularly when you don't know the audience.

If it sounds like I took it personally I do.



Not always a good thing. Why would body armor penetration be anyone's prime criteria for selecting a personal defense round? The characteristics that make it work would certainly make it a poor performer on the 99.99% of unarmored threats (relative to traditional handgun ammunition).

Nice first post and thanks for joining us! I don't think CAUSAF meant any harm by his post, I doubt much of the criminal element reads THR, and believe me, it has been common knowledge on the street for years that LE is wearing body armor, you can thank the media for that initially.

In fact, the first time I was really aware of 7.62x25 armor penetration was in the early 1990's. A gun writer named Chuck Karwan did a write up on it in the Book of Combat Handgunnery volume #3. He said that he initially though about not publishing his findings but he figured more LE than criminals read his books and he wanted to get the info out to those who would be impacted by it most generally.

[jd25q]

I'm sure he didn't mean any harm, but I guess it just hit me the wrong way. I've been watching this forum for awhile, and there is clearly a lot of expertise and experience here. I think we just need to be careful about sharing some of it when it may end up hurting the good guys in the end.

In law enforcement we are facing some serious domestic threats in the form of very well organized and sophisticated gangs. They do their homework. Where is the guy who asks these questions? Hopefully not in Kabul or Fallujah. After all we just told him what level of armor our guys are wearing and specifically what that means. I think we are very much less aware of information security now than during WWII for instance. We are very fortunate that this war effort does not affect our everyday lives. Perhaps it should a little more.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum. Don't mean to get off on the wrong foot.

[psyopspec]

Where is the guy who asks these questions? Hopefully not in Kabul or Fallujah.

I'm the one who posted that chart in the 5th entry. From reading the question, it took me less than 10 seconds to google it from a web site that sells body armor.

The information is out there, very public and very easily accessible.