This nails it shut - Norinco


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romulus
December 28, 2005, 10:18 AM
For anyone like me who over the years has either purchased or considered purchasing a Chinese knockoff, this latest action from the US govt. should at least give pause for reflection.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4563214.stm

China North Industries is better known to us as Norinco.

Just something to think about.

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Old Dog
December 28, 2005, 10:23 AM
and the Austrian firm is Steyr-Mannlicher, which makes assault weapons.
Hmm ...

AZRickD
December 28, 2005, 10:26 AM
Can Steyr still license manufacture within the US?

Rick

Manedwolf
December 28, 2005, 10:29 AM
For anyone like me who over the years has either purchased or considered purchasing a Chinese knockoff, this latest action from the US govt. should at least give pause for reflection.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4563214.stm

China North Industries is better known to us as Norinco.

Just something to think about.

I'd been disgusted at them back when they started making knockoffs of American-as-apple-pie shotguns, especially.

Something wrong about buying an implement of freedom from a communist-controlled repressive regime that silences (literally, and often fatally) any form of dissent. :scrutiny:

CAS700850
December 28, 2005, 10:34 AM
Well, I wonder what Customs will do about those Styer AUG's they seem to like... Guess it's back to M-4's...

Old Fuff
December 28, 2005, 11:12 AM
The two Indian companies are Sabero Organics Chemical and Sandhya Organics Chemical and the Austrian firm is Steyr-Mannlicher, which makes assault weapons.

I find the mention of Steyr-Mannlicher to be more interesting then Norinco, which is barred from the U.S. firearms market anyway. If they are supplying AUG's to Iran we may start seeing them in Iraq - being used by the other side.

As to the question, "can they make (anything) under license in the U.S.?" The answer is probably no, because it's unlikely BATF&E would issue any license, and they couldn't import parts anyway. For the time being, Steyr-Mannlicher won't be able to do any business in the United States. Truly sad... But they apparently ask for this. :banghead:

Harve Curry
December 28, 2005, 11:19 AM
Will this effect the guns China makes that are of interest to Cowboy Action Shooters?

I've often been tempted to buy one of the Chinese copies of the Winchester 1887 lever action shotgun, but my insides wouldn't let me.
China also makes copies of the 1897 Winchester, and the 1878 Colt double barrel shotgun (TNT?), that I know of.

Old Fuff
December 28, 2005, 11:59 AM
Will this effect the guns China makes that are of interest to Cowboy Action Shooters?

Very likely - because they won't be able to get a license to export them to the United States, and U.S. importers won't be able to get the necessay permits to import them. I suspect that in a very short time the supply will be limited to whatever is in-country.

ScottS
December 28, 2005, 12:25 PM
Very likely - because they won't be able to get a license to export them to the United States, and U.S. importers won't be able to get the necessay permits to import them. I suspect that in a very short time the supply will be limited to whatever is in-country.

I doubt it. There was an import ban on Norinco arms just recently (2003?), and the supply of 1897's, 870-clones, etc, never even paused. They are able to shell-game around the import ban with different company names (Interstar, etc). Same gun, different markings = OK for import, I guess.

Lambo
December 28, 2005, 02:40 PM
It's amazing how only certain items are banned .:fire: Hell, 70% of Consumer Goods in the U.S. is marked some how, some where " Made In China". For instance, I've had an interest in purchasing a new Norinco M14S. (http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/M-14S.shtm) I'm told there not available in the U.S. due to a Government Ban of its Import. To me, you Ban All or Ban Nothing!Discrimination? Hypocrisy?... ABSOLUTELY! And what excuse has our so-called pro-gun President GW given for not lifting the Norinco M14A Ban?

Old Fuff
December 28, 2005, 02:56 PM
ScottS:

The basis for banning certain Norinco models in the past, was that they were "not suitable for sporting purposes," in other words SKS models that took detachable large-cap magazines, semi-automatic AK-47 clones, copies of our 1911 .45 pistol, and firearms of that nature. This new ban is based on they're sending weapons to Iran, and is likely to be all-inclusive. You may turn out to be right, but I doubt it.

Other (U.S.) companies could try an end-run like you suggested, but if they get caught the management could end up looking at the world through barred windows... :scrutiny:

mbt2001
December 28, 2005, 03:15 PM
Manedwolf is right.

If a country does not allow their populace to "Keep and Bear arms" then screw them. They shouldn't be allowed to sell their wears in the U.S. It would also have the pleasant effect of helping the American Gun Industry.

That is my two cents anyway.

Jim March
December 28, 2005, 03:35 PM
Norinco is literally owned by the Chinese Army :rolleyes:.

Hollowdweller
December 28, 2005, 03:41 PM
Manedwolf is right.

If a country does not allow their populace to "Keep and Bear arms" then screw them. They shouldn't be allowed to sell their wears in the U.S. It would also have the pleasant effect of helping the American Gun Industry.

That is my two cents anyway.

You know, there's really a lot to be said for that idea.

Look at how many countries make guns that their own citizens cannot own.

True, all guns would be a lot more expensive, but we'd have the satisfaction of knowing we were helping our neighbors instead of some repressive foreign gov't.

Luchtaine
December 28, 2005, 03:46 PM
I personally wont buy anything chinese if I can avoid it at all.

But I think the beef here was why ban just firearms. Wal-mart's shelves should be awfully bare if a ban on chinese wares is in effect

Hollowdweller
December 28, 2005, 03:47 PM
I personally wont buy anything chinese if I can avoid it at all.

I have 2 SKS's but have never been able to convince myself to buy a Chinese one because of what we're talking about.:rolleyes:

Luchtaine
December 28, 2005, 03:57 PM
getting around a chinese SKS is easy enough. :neener:

those come from a lot of places where I wouldn't feel my money was going toward nukes to point at us.

Selfdfenz
December 28, 2005, 04:17 PM
From the bbc news item:

The penalties against the firms will remain in place until December 2007.

Yeppers....that will bring them to their knees.

S-

ScottS
December 28, 2005, 05:12 PM
ScottS:

The basis for banning certain Norinco models in the past, was that they were "not suitable for sporting purposes," in other words SKS models that took detachable large-cap magazines, semi-automatic AK-47 clones, copies of our 1911 .45 pistol, and firearms of that nature. This new ban is based on they're sending weapons to Iran, and is likely to be all-inclusive. You may turn out to be right, but I doubt it.

Other (U.S.) companies could try an end-run like you suggested, but if they get caught the management could end up looking at the world through barred windows... :scrutiny:

I'm not talking about the "sporting purposes" ban. In May, 2003, Pres Bush instituted a ban on importing Norinco weapons because of missile technology sales. The ban amounted to nothing, as the supply of Norinco-produced shotguns didn't even slow down. That ban ran until May 2005. You notice any shortage of '97's or 870-clones in that time? Like I said, they just changed the name on the side, and pressed right on.

Here's an article describing what I'm talking about.

Bush Ban on Chinese Imports
Charles R. Smith
Wednesday, May 28, 2003
Chinese Arms Maker Gets Cut


The Bush administration has just imposed a two-year ban on imports from Chinese arms maker NORINCO (China North Industries). According to U.S. defense intelligence sources, President Bush imposed the restrictions personally.

And another:

Of Red Parakeets and Dragon Fire: The Nonproliferation Case for Maintaining the EU Arms Embargo on China
by Matthew Schroeder

NORINCO has come under fire for other transfers, including the sale of missile technology to Iran. In May 2003 the Bush administration slapped a two-year ban on NORINCO imports as punishment for engaging in "missile technology proliferation activities."

jefnvk
December 28, 2005, 05:21 PM
Hmmm...

It is my understanding that NORINCO is one of (if not) the largest manufacturing companies in the world.

I find it hard to belive that none of their other products are sold in America, does this ban apply to those products as well?

outofbattery
December 28, 2005, 05:27 PM
Steyr informed the US gov't that they would suspend the sales of their .50 anti-material rifles to Iran if they were permitted to sell semi-auto weapons in the US.The number of them sold to Iran would have been eclipsed within an hour if legal AUG's were available but there's no way they'd change to import ban to allow it.Austria has good relations with Iran and no defense ties to the US so it was and is entirely legal business.I'd much rather be able to buy a new semi-auto AUG than see the Revolutionary Guard have a few dozen .50's to pass out to Hizbollah et al.

Old Fuff
December 28, 2005, 05:30 PM
Interesting, we'll have to see, and only time will tell. I think that the Administration/U.S. Government is getting more concerned about Iran and North Korea, and those who are supplying them. The slap at Steyr is a hint of this, as Austria is thought of as a “friendly to U.S. interests” country. The last thing they’ll worry about is the cowboy action shooters’ vote.

Edited to add: Norinco might try to set up manufacturing operations in certain South American countries though...

outofbattery
December 28, 2005, 05:36 PM
Steyr's CEO made a comment that it was necessary to move production of small arms out of Austria as ,to paraphrase, " I'm sick of being compared to a drug dealer or pimp" so it isn't even as though Austria is too happy with any arms sales.I guess cutting off the supply of Glocks to the US would be a snarky reply,but there would go something like 2/3 of their sales!

GunnySkox
December 28, 2005, 05:44 PM
Hm, well, if Norinco can't import any more guns here, then it really can't help them any to own or purchase one secondhand, can it?

I might have an ideological objection to Ruger's stance on selling standard-capacity rifle magazines to peasants, but since I've already got a Mini-14, it doesn't really do them any good if I keep it or sell it, and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest if I throw it in the trash or give it to a friend. So if you see some dude at a Gun Show selling a Norinco SKS or a Norinco Shottie, why not buy it? It's not like any more money's going to get back to the commies.

Or have I totally misread whatever import bans/restrictions apply to Norinco stuff?

~GnSx

1 old 0311
December 28, 2005, 05:57 PM
The other side of the coin is S&W has been anti 2nd Amendment in the past. Ruger has also not always been "pro" friendly. Kahr is owned by the son of the Moonies founder. Where do we stop????????????????

Kevin

mack69
December 28, 2005, 05:57 PM
Norinco is literally owned by the Chinese Army
Something wrong about buying an implement of freedom from a communist-controlled repressive regime that silences (literally, and often fatally) any form of dissent

Two very good reasons not to ever buy any of these items from Norinco...
I didn't know that Norinco was wholly owned and operated by the Chinese military and that all funds from sales go directly into their coffers until I had attempted to buy a Norinco shotgun and it was refused by my local FFL. When I stopped by to ask why, my friendly FFL dealer explained the whole deal to me....I've been waiting for a good Mossy or Remmy since then.

Standing Wolf
December 28, 2005, 07:53 PM
Norinco is literally owned by the Chinese Army...

Settles it for meónot that I was thinking about buying Chinese guns in the oft-cited "first place."

Jeff Timm
December 28, 2005, 07:54 PM
Uhh, folks, Red China is a Communist country. There is only one thing, the STATE! It is everything and owns everything.

If I am elected, assuming I ever get rich enough to run, I will ban all imports from China, Inc.

Geoff
Who will have to win the lottery twice and divorce my wife, change my name, wipe out a generation of internet postings, and then do some serious tail covering. I'm too honest to run as a Democrat. Sigh..:evil:

saltydog
December 28, 2005, 10:30 PM
What I find interesting is that no weapons can be imported from China but Walmart can have the rest of the Chineese market.

IndianaDean
December 28, 2005, 10:36 PM
I've been doing the best I can to avoid buying anything made in China anyway, because I don't like their government, and I don't like our jobs going away to them.
I know I can't do anything about either, but whenever I can I buy whatever I need that is not made in China. So a Norinco will never be on my list anyway.

Joejojoba111
December 29, 2005, 06:25 AM
If China's viewing us as the enemy, supplying us all with dirt cheap firearms is a funny opening move...

Janitor
December 29, 2005, 07:33 AM
Hm, well, if Norinco can't import any more guns here, then it really can't help them any to own or purchase one secondhand, can it?

I might have an ideological objection to Ruger's stance on selling standard-capacity rifle magazines to peasants, but since I've already got a Mini-14, it doesn't really do them any good if I keep it or sell it, and it doesn't hurt them in the slightest if I throw it in the trash or give it to a friend. So if you see some dude at a Gun Show selling a Norinco SKS or a Norinco Shottie, why not buy it? It's not like any more money's going to get back to the commies.
Not true.

-> The more popular a Norinco is ... the more they will sell (*buh*)
-> The better the gun they produce ... the more they will sell
-> The better the value of the guns they produce ... the more they will sell
-> The better the guns they produce hold their resale value ... the more they will sell
-> The better their guns move through the used market ...
-

Oleg Volk
December 29, 2005, 09:32 AM
Personally, I want Chinese, Russian and other foreign guns available for sale here as options, in addition to the domestic models. "Punishing other countries" with bans or tariffs mostly hurts Americans by reducing the available options, raising prices AND reduces the incentive to other countries to keep open trade ties with us. WW2 was facilitated in part by the trade wars which preceded it, you might recall.

I'd like to buy Russian or Chinese PPSh, PPS, RPK, RPD, M14 and more modern designs...but the benevolent US govt. prohibits me from doing so. Who is harmed more -- the Russian or the Chinese governments or I?

Janitor
December 29, 2005, 09:38 AM
Who is harmed more -- the Russian or the Chinese governments or I?
Well - the Russian and/or Chinese governments, that's who. Why ... there's a solid $19.37 profit (at least - may be as high as $23.49) not made in one of those countries because you can't get a new imported AK or Chinese 1911.
-

Master Blaster
December 29, 2005, 11:16 AM
The other side of the coin is S&W has been anti 2nd Amendment in the past. Ruger has also not always been "pro" friendly. Kahr is owned by the son of the Moonies founder. Where do we stop????????????????


I haven't noticed that S&W and Ruger were building nuclear weapons pointed at my family with the money I spend on their products HAVE YOU????

I try not to buy anything made in China, but every year it gets harder to do this. I guess we can thank Billy Bob Clinton for giving them that favored nation trading partner status without cleaning up their act.

mercedesrules
December 29, 2005, 12:12 PM
Personally, I want Chinese, Russian and other foreign guns available for sale here as options, in addition to the domestic models. "Punishing other countries" with bans or tariffs mostly hurts Americans by reducing the available options, raising prices AND reduces the incentive to other countries to keep open trade ties with us. WW2 was facilitated in part by the trade wars which preceded it, you might recall.

I'd like to buy Russian or Chinese PPSh, PPS, RPK, RPD, M14 and more modern designs...but the benevolent US govt. prohibits me from doing so. Who is harmed more -- the Russian or the Chinese governments or I?

I was hoping a sane person would show up. :)

Guys, US government arrogance #1 is to presume to limit what its own citizens can peacefully own; arrogance #2 is to presume control over what other sovereign countries or individuals exchange in the marketplace. Any state control of trade is a loss of freedom. Please be on the side of liberty.

ScottS
December 29, 2005, 12:24 PM
I haven't noticed that S&W and Ruger were building nuclear weapons pointed at my family with the money I spend on their products HAVE YOU????

I try not to buy anything made in China, but every year it gets harder to do this. I guess we can thank Billy Bob Clinton for giving them that favored nation trading partner status without cleaning up their act.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Lenin said capitalists would sell rope to those who would hang them. How'd that work out for him? A lot of you are the same people that said we should not engage the FSU economically during the Cold War. The USSR fell largely because it couldn't keep up with the rising expectations of a middle class. My personal opinion is the more China develops economically, the less they will be able to stop the move to capitalism and a capitalist society.

My personal preference is for a cheap 1897 clone. Maybe I could buy one from one those many American companies that make them. No? Well, then I guess I'm going 'Rinco.

GunnySkox
December 29, 2005, 07:28 PM
Not true.

-> The more popular a Norinco is ... the more they will sell (*buh*)
-> The better the gun they produce ... the more they will sell
-> The better the value of the guns they produce ... the more they will sell
-> The better the guns they produce hold their resale value ... the more they will sell
-> The better their guns move through the used market ...
-

I'd assumed that Norinco couldn't import any new weapons here (hence the question in my post, "(*buh*)"), seems I was wrong. Sorry.

~GnSx

Janitor
December 29, 2005, 07:52 PM
I'd assumed that Norinco couldn't import any new weapons here (hence the question in my post, "(*buh*)"), seems I was wrong. Sorry.

~GnSx
Gunny -

Hope I didn't offend with that *buh* - it was meant as a comment to my own obvious statement.

I wasn't trying to imply that buying a used Norinco *specifically* would affect new sales in this country, given an import ban. (actually, on re reading your post, I should have simply said 'Ruger' instead of 'Norinco')

All I was trying to say was that how well a givin gun fares on the used marked has a direct relationship with how they do on the new. Your original post seemed to imply that wasn't true. I apologize if I misunderstood.
-

Danus ex
December 29, 2005, 07:58 PM
Personally, I want Chinese, Russian and other foreign guns available for sale here as options, in addition to the domestic models. "Punishing other countries" with bans or tariffs mostly hurts Americans by reducing the available options, raising prices AND reduces the incentive to other countries to keep open trade ties with us. WW2 was facilitated in part by the trade wars which preceded it, you might recall.

I'd like to buy Russian or Chinese PPSh, PPS, RPK, RPD, M14 and more modern designs...but the benevolent US govt. prohibits me from doing so. Who is harmed more -- the Russian or the Chinese governments or I?

Agreed. U.S. consumers deserve options, and U.S. companies NEED competition. They're always perfectly happy to sit on their butts and sell the same old thing at inflated prices, using the profit to gobble up small domestic startups. Excuse my rant, but I'm pleased with what's happening to Ford and GM; competing Japanese, German, French, Italian, Swedish, and British auto makers have been delivering a better car (not truck) for the money for the last few decades now. Ford and GM's arrogance and complacency with selling us the same old huge, gas guzzling, trampoline suspensioned, wet-sponge-handling rust boxes is finally killing them. Good riddance, America can do better.

Protectionist policy limits consumer choice and economic liberty. Sure, said policy might protect certain groups, but does so at the expense of everyone else.

GunnySkox
December 29, 2005, 10:10 PM
Gunny -

Hope I didn't offend with that *buh* - it was meant as a comment to my own obvious statement.

I wasn't trying to imply that buying a used Norinco *specifically* would affect new sales in this country, given an import ban. (actually, on re reading your post, I should have simply said 'Ruger' instead of 'Norinco')

All I was trying to say was that how well a givin gun fares on the used marked has a direct relationship with how they do on the new. Your original post seemed to imply that wasn't true. I apologize if I misunderstood.
-

*sniff, sniff* So much.. so much love on The High Road! I'm so sorry! */Oprah*

:D

I s'pose my question now is this: Can Norinco export arms to the US at all anymore, or are only certain classes of firearm banned?

~GnSx

Manedwolf
December 29, 2005, 10:36 PM
competing Japanese, German, French, Italian, Swedish, and British auto makers have been delivering a better car (not truck) for the money for the last few decades now. Ford and GM's arrogance and complacency with selling us the same old huge, gas guzzling, trampoline suspensioned, wet-sponge-handling rust boxes is finally killing them. Good riddance, America can do better.

On that count, check out the Honda Ridgeline truck. Has a lot of "why didn't anyone else think of this" features, and will NOT be in for repairs like a Dodge, etc.

That, and while GM is making stuff in India and Ford in Mexico, my Honda was built in Ohio, and they give their workers great benefits.

Danus ex
December 29, 2005, 11:25 PM
On that count, check out the Honda Ridgeline truck. Has a lot of "why didn't anyone else think of this" features, and will NOT be in for repairs like a Dodge, etc.

That, and while GM is making stuff in India and Ford in Mexico, my Honda was built in Ohio, and they give their workers great benefits.

Oooh yeah, I forgot about that truck. Haven't seen many on the road I guess. Yet.

Just going off of memory, Toyota, Honda, BMW, and Hyundai have production facilities here, and I'm sure many others do as well. They seem to be doing relatively well financially, too.

No_Brakes23
December 29, 2005, 11:47 PM
Excuse my rant, but I'm pleased with what's happening to Ford and GM; competing Japanese, German, French, Italian, Swedish, and British auto makers have been delivering a better car (not truck) for the money for the last few decades now. I agree with your basic statement, but I am curious how Ford owned Volvo and GM owned Saab are "competing" with said companies. Same thing goes for GM owned Lotus and Ford owned Aston Martin, Jaguar. German cars don't compete as they are all more expensive, (Yes even V-dubs.) French and Italian cars are more expensive and arguably worse than American cars. Japanese cars have undeniably raised the bar for GM/FoMoCo/Chrysler, but Subaru, Toyota, Mitsu, and Mazda are all owned by or in bed with American companies now.

On a related note, I love when people with Canadian or Mexican built Fords tell me I am unpatriotic for driving my Ford-engined Flat Rock Michigan-built Mazda 6.

I have to agree, though, foreign competition is a good thing. I would love it if Izmash were to make a Win'97. And I have to wonder why anyone would buy a $240 'Rinco 870 when you can get the real thing for not much more or even less.

All that being said, I don't buy Chinese guns, I just don't like 'em. I am all for Russian, Czech and Yugo firearms, though.

ScottS
December 29, 2005, 11:56 PM
I have to agree, though, foreign competition is a good thing. I would love it if Izmash were to make a Win'97. And I have to wonder why anyone would buy a $240 'Rinco 870 when you can get the real thing for not much more or even less.
I don't think I would, but my 'Rinco 870 clone was $165 delivered to my FFL, $180 out the door, and came with ghost ring sights and a longer-than-Remington magazine. The park is beautifully even, and the fit and finish is more than good enough for a working gun. Very nice, actually.

Just the price of adding the ghost ring sights to my Rem 870 was more than $165.

Walter
December 30, 2005, 12:28 AM
Manedwolf is right.

If a country does not allow their populace to "Keep and Bear arms" then screw them. They shouldn't be allowed to sell their wears in the U.S. It would also have the pleasant effect of helping the American Gun Industry.

That is my two cents anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree. So until Canada recognizes and respects my CCL,
I won't be buying any Para Ordnance products.

Walter

Lucky
December 30, 2005, 12:37 AM
Manedwolf is right.

If a country does not allow their populace to "Keep and Bear arms" then screw them. They shouldn't be allowed to sell their wears in the U.S. It would also have the pleasant effect of helping the American Gun Industry.

That is my two cents anyway.

Sounds like something else a small gov't has no business regulating. Sounds like something a nanny-state would love to regulate.

1)Control guns in country 2)Control guns from out of country.

If you control both of those what is left?

Bartholomew Roberts
December 30, 2005, 12:47 AM
Hmmm...

It is my understanding that NORINCO is one of (if not) the largest manufacturing companies in the world.

I find it hard to belive that none of their other products are sold in America, does this ban apply to those products as well?

The ban instituted by the Bush Administration applies to ALL Norinco products, not just guns. However, I imagine a lot of Norinco products are cheap enough to export to a somewhat corrupt country and have their origin certified there to make them viable for U.S. import.

I know I've seen Mexican produced shotguns imported under various brand names that look an awful lot like certain Norinco products and Mexico has never exactly been known for its small arms industry.

Danus ex
December 30, 2005, 01:13 AM
I agree with your basic statement, but I am curious how Ford owned Volvo and GM owned Saab are "competing" with said companies. Same thing goes for GM owned Lotus and Ford owned Aston Martin, Jaguar. German cars don't compete as they are all more expensive, (Yes even V-dubs.) French and Italian cars are more expensive and arguably worse than American cars. Japanese cars have undeniably raised the bar for GM/FoMoCo/Chrysler, but Subaru, Toyota, Mitsu, and Mazda are all owned by or in bed with American companies now.

On a related note, I love when people with Canadian or Mexican built Fords tell me I am unpatriotic for driving my Ford-engined Flat Rock Michigan-built Mazda 6.

I have to agree, though, foreign competition is a good thing. I would love it if Izmash were to make a Win'97. And I have to wonder why anyone would buy a $240 'Rinco 870 when you can get the real thing for not much more or even less.

All that being said, I don't buy Chinese guns, I just don't like 'em. I am all for Russian, Czech and Yugo firearms, though.

Yeah, I am aware of all that ownership stuff. Webs of ownership can sure make arguments brittle :). Unfortunately, we don't see any of the French cars, and don't see many of the British and Italian manufacturers here, so it's hard to say how they'd fare on American roads. The British press does give Renaults and Peugots favorable reviews pretty regularly. It's really a mixed bag--I've seen Fords with very high ratings (Focus, Mondeo). Supposedly, the auto maker that's in the best shape right now is the Nissan-Renault partnership. And jeez, there sure aren't many mainstream auto makers that haven't been gobbled up by a bigger fish. At least in the gun world we've got a lot more real choices.

ghost squire
December 30, 2005, 02:36 AM
The USSR fell largely because it couldn't keep up with the rising expectations of a middle class. My personal opinion is the more China develops economically, the less they will be able to stop the move to capitalism and a capitalist society.


China is making an excellent transition to capitalism, and unlike the FSU, when it switches from communism to capitalism, it will only be a powerful ex-communist country.

I don't believe it will significantly weaken it. Wheras Russia was bankrupt when it switched over, China is only getting richer and more powerful.

Master Blaster
December 30, 2005, 10:28 AM
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and Lenin said capitalists would sell rope to those who would hang them. How'd that work out for him? A lot of you are the same people that said we should not engage the FSU economically during the Cold War. The USSR fell largely because it couldn't keep up with the rising expectations of a middle class. My personal opinion is the more China develops economically, the less they will be able to stop the move to capitalism and a capitalist society.

My personal preference is for a cheap 1897 clone. Maybe I could buy one from one those many American companies that make them. No? Well, then I guess I'm going 'Rinco.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Everyone is free to choose what they buy, If I go into a store to buy a frying pan and see pans from china and the US, the US one is of higher quality and usually also sells for a higher price. I like better quality, and I have not seen much from China that is as good quality as products made elsewhere. So I choose not to buy Chinese products if that is possible. Few here will argue that a Chinese made rifle scope or knife is better than one made in Japan, the USA, or even the Phillipenes. For the most part you get what you pay for. China is our Competitor and our business partner, and our enemy to a lesser extent. We really need to remember the competitor, as well as potential enemy part. We also have to keep in mind that there is really no free trade. Our trading partners are competeing with us for the betterment of their standard of living which could result in the deterioration of our standard of living.

Oleg Volk
December 30, 2005, 10:07 PM
FWIW, the Chinese equivalents of Remington 870 showed better fit and finish for less money. But, for the sake of an argument, let's say that they are less well made AND more expensive than American products. Should we not have a choice to buy one, the other or both? I resent the explanation that keeping out foreign goods protects anything but the interests of a small number of people who make similar domestic goods. And -- imagine this -- I work in the industry subject to the most foreign competition: graphic design. ANYONE abroad can do what I do.

romulus
December 31, 2005, 02:02 AM
...I resent the explanation that keeping out foreign goods protects anything but the interests of a small number of people who make similar domestic goods...
I agree...Just to be clear, I mentioned these latest shenanigans by China North as a reason for me personally to boycott their product, nothing more. It won't amount to a hill of beans, it's just a decision based on conscience

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