April 7, 2003, 02:40 PM
Wow! I gotta call a foul here! My last post had more gun stuff in it than 90% of the things I see here! A few points:
1). I am an active duty medical doctor taking care of the war casualties here in DC. The small amount of time I get to spend w my kids thrills me to death and I, proud papa that I am, sought to share with a group that I thought would appreciate the effort. I am amazed at how quik it got locked as if it was in some way offensive.
2). A military kid doing something military IS gun a very roundabout way....OK is not at all, but it's so cute DAMMIT!
3). Since I am, not by choice, stationed in a very anti-gun state, I go to the forums for a bit of community. To hob-nob with like minded individuals as it were. It would be nice to get to know y'all, and, if we cannot post general, get-to-know ya type things in this forum, we should have a forum wherin we CAN. Otherwise, I get the feeling that we are not a community and perhaps that is why the anti's are doing so well....because we gun owners are so divided.
God bless the USMC and the 3rd ID!!!! Zack

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Double Maduro
April 7, 2003, 02:49 PM

I hope you get to spend more time with your kids real soon. When you work on these people let them know that many of us out here support them and thank them.

I took my granddaughter to the range this summer. It was the first time she had ever seen a gun in person, the smile on her face when she fired the first shot from my Ruger 22/45 was so big it shut off the dusk to dawn lights.

She's pretty good, good enough that I will have to practice more to stay ahead of her.

How long will you be stationed in D.C.?

If you get up here to the Pacific Northwest let me know and we can go shoot together.


PS hopefully that is enough gun content to keep this open.

April 7, 2003, 02:51 PM
There are several threads that have discussed a non-gun general discussions forum. Please do a search on them.

A moderator closed your first baby thread as it was OT. It wasn't personal. He said your kid was cute. I said your kid was cute.

You re-opened it under a thin veil.

April 7, 2003, 02:56 PM
Wow, you guys take this stuff serious. My points still stand. If we can't post get to know ya type general posts in Gen Dis, where can we? Perish the thought I get to know some of you guys and make some friends.
Was stationed at Whidbey Island NAS for a while, Maduro and would kill at the chance to get back!

P.S. Runt: It wasn't a "thin veil" but rather a direct and intentional statement.

Double Maduro
April 7, 2003, 03:02 PM
What am I missing, why is this in tech support?

April 7, 2003, 03:04 PM
There are many other forums with non-gun general discussions. The admins/moderators have decided to not have one here. More details on this discussion can be found in past threads.

You re-posted your baby thread and threw in something about guns in an attempt to keep your baby thread open. If the topic was really gun related, you would've done it the first time.

April 7, 2003, 03:07 PM
Double Maduro,
It's in tech support because he's wondering about having a non-gun general discussions forum, and I figured this was the best place for it.

Technical Support
"Suggestions and Questions for the Staff."

Chris Rhines
April 7, 2003, 03:19 PM
Doc -

You're kinda missing the point.

Point your mouse to the top-right corner of your screen, and click on Rules Of Conduct for me, will you?

1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.When you created your membership, you entered into a contract with THR. Then you proceded to violate it, twice. Frankly, I think the mods are being quite even-tempered about it (were I in charge, I would have banned your IP after the second violation. But hey, I'm not in charge.) THR takes a pretty firm line against off-topic postings. I've been a member of some boards that don't, and they all end up spiraling down the tubes after a while. I don't want to see that happen here; the quality of content is too good.

Okay, criticism over, suggestion commencing.

If you want to chat off-topic, try using the Private Message system. I use it fairly frequently to talk with my family, shooting buddies, and all and sundry. There's no requirement to stick to guns and/or civil liberties in PMs; anything goes.

- Chris

April 7, 2003, 03:34 PM
Of course a private org can and should have the right to dictate the terms of its own membership, Hell, that's WHY I've been in uniform the last 16 years. If I don't agree with this, I can just leave, but I just think that this board can be improved by opening up a little. I'm a bit intriqued with the whole, lock thing. I always thought that squelching dissent was one of THEIR tactics and am a bit stunned by the response. It's not about baby threads, that is long past. I'ts about the lack of cohesion in the gunny community and the way y'all have about making a guy feel unwelcome. A person like myself may come to a board to make contact with likeminded individuals and gets a bit of an e-slap to the e-face. This isn't democratic underground, or am I mistaken.
Wow Chris...banning an IP based on a little courteous disagreement!?! Don't like people who won't toe the line do you? Don't want to be banned because I get alot of good stuff, esp. the Oleg Volk picks here, but I won't be a sheeple either.

Steve Smith
April 7, 2003, 03:50 PM
Chris Rhines said:
Frankly, I think the mods are being quite even-tempered about it

Agreed. I could have been a lot nastier, considering you (NavyDoc) AGREED to the rules of conduct before becoming a member. By resubmitting your thread with a paltry attempt at making it gun related, you essentially thumbed your nose at Runt and me.

Please REread the Rules of Conduct and follow them. You are a guest here, just as I am. You could easily wear out your welcome "toeing the line."

April 7, 2003, 04:31 PM
Well, I thought that Big Cedar was a pretty gun (or at least hunter...) friendly sorta place. I think we oughta know about the cool folks, so that we can patronize 'em.

They've even got a group of CROWS that are stuffed, on a replica of a utilities pole, for pete's sake!

April 7, 2003, 04:40 PM
I mean, you just GOTTA love a hotel room that looks like this...

April 7, 2003, 04:56 PM
I understand I agreed to certain terms when I signed up, you don't need to keep lecturing me on that. I assume that the purpose of a forum to to have discourse. I admit I thumbed my e-nose at you all in(I thought) a good natured attempt to point out a situation with which I did not agree. I think that the rules are silly and not enforced equitably and, instead of having an immature "I'll take my toys and leave" sort of attitude, I thought I'd try to engage in a little debate here. I understand the agreement, I agreed to the conditions, I got that. I'm just asking you all to think out of the box a little bit.
On general discussion forum is a thread that hasn't been locked. It is the one about "caption this pic" and has the C17 apparently bearing down on a crew working on a runway in theater. Has nothing to do w guns but has not been locked and, in my humble opinion, nor should it. It's a good picture and some of the guys are having a little fun with it. Great. Good way to have a chuckle, and boy I am in need of a good chuckle these days.
In my opinion, if you want to attract new members and spread the message about gun rights, the forum should lighted up just a wee bit and lose this domineering/dictatorial attitude. It's a private forum of, course and you will do what you want, but I think if this debate should be held in public rather than being squelched.

April 7, 2003, 04:57 PM
Careful, Bogie, you're getting off-topic and may incur the wrath of the forum enforcers!

I'd encourage you to read the rest of this thread before posting hare again...


April 7, 2003, 05:12 PM
[Scottish Brouge on] They may lock my posts, they may ban my IP, but they will never taake my freeeeeeeedddooooooom!!!![Throw e-claymore into e-field] /[Scottish brouge off]

Steve Smith
April 7, 2003, 05:21 PM
Now you seem to think that the Mods have some sort of OT ESP. You obvioulsy looked around for an example of a thread that was overlooked just so you could use it in your defense. Just because no one caught it doesn't mean it helps your case one bit.

If a Mod does something that you do not agree with, PM him or her. If you cannot come to an agreement, tell him/her that you would like to discuss it with Oleg, and do so. Surely you know how to address a chain of command. Publicly thumbing your nose at ANYONE at THR is not appreciated, and starting another thread purely to do that will not be tolerated.

April 7, 2003, 06:46 PM
Wow. A little personal dig, there Steve. Ok. I didn't think of there being a chain of command because in a "forum" consisting of "members", one would think that "members" could openly discuss issues in front of other "members'. Admittantly my second post was a razz, but was intended in good nature and was intended to be amusing. I've seen members razz each other on occasion and think that a little levity would be good here.
The issue is not really about a single thread, but rather the entire atmosphere. I'd love to get Mr. Volk involved. He seems to be a decent individual and I respect his devotion to the cause of gun rights and, In my opinion, he would be concerned about an atmosphere that may actually turn people off to his forums and his cause.
I honestly think that this thread actually belongs in Gen Discussion, because that is the one forum that most people visit on a regualr basis and thus the most members will be able to see it and comment on it.

Steve Smith
April 7, 2003, 06:56 PM
This topic has been discussed at great length in the Gen Discussion forum by Mr. Volk. I suggest you use the search feature and read those threads.

You are of course welcome to bring this up to Oleg whenever you want.

Ed Brunner
April 7, 2003, 09:21 PM
I've certainly never been there, but some of my friends have and they claim that they can usually disagree without seeming arrogant or authoratative. I admire that ability even though I don't posess it.

April 7, 2003, 09:43 PM
1.) All topics and posts must be related to firearms or civil liberties issues.

Hmmmm. The War must be pretty well OT then. Agreed? Let's stop talking about it.


Steve Smith
April 7, 2003, 09:59 PM
Mr. Volk has made it clear that war threads are to go into L&P, not General Discussion.

BTW, Navy Doc, I don't see anything personal about what I've said here...other than saying your kid was cute. I try to be as impersonal as possible here.

April 8, 2003, 09:21 PM
dont worry about it navydoc.... the mods seem to be 'learning the ropes' as they go along.

maybe what the mods could be suggesting however, is what Oleg has suggested: posting such truly General topics to boards like, or friendsfamilyfirearms, forget what its actually called, or even glocktalk.

i for one, was a little irritated for a short while (maybe still am) that a thread i started that discussed the attitude and respect towards WWII Veterans is different than towards Vietnam Veterans.

a suggestion i would pose to the mods/admins, is that a PM be sent to the starter of a thread that is OT to ask that the make the thread on topic, or at least explain the process behind it. i've seen some threads killed as OT when they were in L&P, when it should have stated that it was being closed because it was getting potentially offensive.

no explanation is necessary when threads degrade.

April 8, 2003, 10:10 PM
I think people are supposed to learn in lower school that if you're judged unequally, you don't rat on someone else whose misdeeds were overlooked.

"What is this, 1930s Italy?"
This is one of the situations where two vastly different theories seems rather similar in reality to certain kinds of people. That does not mean they are similar. Moderation here is used [in an attempt] to maintain a high signal to noise ratio. Moderation at, say, DU, is gearned toward squelching dissent. You will not find polite, on-topic (which in L&P is not a very onerous limitation) posts moderated here unless they stomp their way solidly into the realm of Smith Act violations or cop-killing, if in fact the latter isn't a Smith Act violation. Gay bashing, religion bashing, and a variety of other things don't really qualify as "polite" so they can be omitted for the sake of simplicity.

April 8, 2003, 10:29 PM
Tyme...a dig? I've learned rather alot since elementary school thank you very much. I was trying to get a handle on where the mods were coming from. Your explaination about preserving bandwidth or s/n ratio was very appreciated. At least I know there's a method behind the madness. I've never responded well to the old "'cause I said so", type answer, and a logical, well thought out post such as yours did indeed help.

Steve Smith
April 8, 2003, 11:55 PM
At least I know there's a method behind the madness

I thought that was common sense.

"Cause I said so" doesn't come from me. EVER. Being a "hardbutt" about the rules and being arrogant are to entirely different things. If you don't like the rules here, find a place you like better...its as simple as that. For Ed, I personally prefer the R. Lee Ermey brand of charm school.

I don't owe you a damned thing, but I will tell you this anyway. Every time the Mods have discussed having an off-topic forum, I have been a "yes" vote. Yeah, I'd like to see it. Yeah, it would be a royal PITA to moderate, and could theoretically deteriorate the entire board, which is why it doesn't exist here. Bottom line, I don't have anything against OT posts, other than they don't belong here until the leadership decides otherwise.

Steve Smith
April 9, 2003, 12:08 AM
One more thing. If you look around a bit I think you will find that ALL of the Mods are more lenient regarding slightly OT stuff when it is in the smaller forums. GD and L&P are heavily axed because they both could become easily congested.

Ed Brunner
April 9, 2003, 03:57 PM
Sure. Why not?

April 9, 2003, 04:34 PM
Jeez. Calm down. I thought I was being conciliatory and I was expressing appreciation of being reasoned with. I'm getting a bit of a hostile feeling here. I'm not a computer person, per se, so alot of what you may consider common sense is acually not readily apparent to the casual observer just as much of what I consider common knowlege in my fields of medicine and military are not crystal clear to those uninitiated in those fields. Gunny people tend, in my experience, to be brighter, more independantly minded, and agressive than the average dude and thus we do tend to butt heads on occasion. No harm there, I guess.

For Ed, I personally prefer the R. Lee Ermey brand of charm school.

As an actual graduate of the Parris Island school of physical fitness and sand eating, I'm very familiar with the Gunny Ermey way of doing things. If you are as well, then you know what that is all about and might agree with me that such a way with dealing with people is not always appropriate. If not, then you don't know what the heck you are talking about.

Steve Smith
April 9, 2003, 04:43 PM
Of course it isn't always appropriate. I have only been direct with you. If that isn't appropriate, I don't know what is. S/N ratio is one of the prime concerns of all Mods here at THR, unlike other forums on the net. The noise is getting prety high on this thread. I don't have anything else to add to this do you? Surely you understand were we are coming from now?

Oh, and despite what you think you're reading into my posts, I am perfectly calm.

April 9, 2003, 05:00 PM
Good. Much calmer. I think we've come to an impass and have beat this proverbial horse to it's untimely end. I will consider this discussion close and will extend to you a firm handshake and let bygones be. Surely you understand were we are coming from now?

Oh, and don't call me surely! ;)

Steve Smith
April 9, 2003, 05:01 PM
Just shake my hand, Shirley. :D

FWIW, I have always been alittle sharp-tongued and I try to be very precise with my language. As a technical writer and engineer, I rarely have a need to make people smile when they read my work. Try not to read into it too much.

April 9, 2003, 05:12 PM
I hear ya! At USNA I had to take many engineering classes. EE was the worst. All those numbers!!! And that doggone back *** wards TE scientific calculator.:banghead:

Steve Smith
April 9, 2003, 05:19 PM
Numbers r your friends.

You mean TI? I hated that damned thing. Don't remember the model.

I have a Sharp that kicks butt though.

April 9, 2003, 05:31 PM
Yeah...TI was it. Rectangular w a dark brown/black case. Had to type 1 then enter, then 1 then enter, then +, then another key if I recall to get 2. Like my Clie, tho. Full PDR and pt tracker as well as several ref books on the doggone thing! If only it could sleep for me, It'd be perfect! I'm 36 hours w/out right now...couldn't ya tell! And to belive that my callsign was once "mellow".......:scrutiny:

Steve Smith
April 9, 2003, 05:57 PM
Yes! I remember that POS! Ok, I'm not old enough to have "had" to use it, but I did anyway. Long enough to decide that it sucked.

April 9, 2003, 06:01 PM
Back to the topic at hand... I'd like to see a "THR Culture" (as part of the "gun culture") area... So many folks get all het up and focused on different areas that they don't see/even acknowledge the existance of the other areas of this thing we love... Shotgunners look down their noses at deer hunters, deer hunters think that varminters are nuts, benchresters don't even want to touch a rifle that won't shoot inside a quarter minute, etc...

If I may...

THR seems to be very focused on self defense, the ethics thereof, etc., while not being as "into" some other areas of the culture... Part of this may be due to some moderators seeing "guns" as only instruments of self defense, where in fact the "gun culture" is far wider in scope. I suspect that some folks see weapons like Desert Eagles, the big new Smiths, etc., as being as useless (self-defense-wise, and hence in general, from their point of view...) for concealed carry as an AK-47 is for duck hunting... IMHO, we need to break a few paradigms (sheesh, feel like I'm in a meeting...) here, and broaden some horizons.

Mal H
April 9, 2003, 06:04 PM
That calculator (and HP's) was a pain in the butt until you understood why it worked that way. It's called Reverse Polish Notation, and was adapted from Polish Notation (in honor of a famous Polish mathematician) by HP. The calculations were simplified by using an "numbers" stack and an operator stack which eliminated the need for parenthetical expressions which are fairly hard to do with hand calculators.

Like you guys, I much prefer a standard expression calculator for everyday usage to the RPN ones, but it does have it's place. That place is probably not in entry science/engineering classes.

Steve Smith
April 10, 2003, 11:55 AM
Bogie, you go first. Start shooting Highpower. I expect a full report at the end of the summer. ;)

April 12, 2003, 12:54 AM
Using Reverse Polish is kinda like riding a bicycle, once you learn how to do it, you'll never forget!

Re: thread veer. I've seen instances of both patrons and moderators getting short-fused. They're people. First time I saw Steve get snippy here at THR I wondered "***, over?" I often wondered if Steve knew guns could be used for things other than the Highpower course of fire. But then it dawned on me, he wasn't getting paid enough to moderate the forum, nor was he getting paid enough to deal with abuse dished out from strangers. So he's entitled, and from what I've seen, has made use of that entitlement.

Truth is, there are all sorts of people who make up this big world of ours. I cringe every time BHP9 posts something. Or Yohan types something offensive. Then Sven posts another Valtro pic. But it's just people doing what people do, day after day. When it gets too much, I just stop surfing to this website for a while. No different than watching TV, you can change the channel or turn off the TV.

Matter of fact, when this deployment is over (hopefully soon), I'm gonna spend a lot of time with my new wife away from TV and the Internet, and take a long walk on the beach to watch the sunset. Maybe we'll go camping in Wisconsin, or visit family and friends. I'll probably not even go shooting. There's more to life than a single website on the Internet, really. It's definitely not worth getting all riled up over. Enjoy life on the outside of the cathode ray tube!

April 12, 2003, 06:20 PM
Are we still talking about this!
LOL!!!! I'd heard about the reverse Polish notation before concerning HP calculators but Ive always thought it a joke!!!!!
Learn something new every day.........:D

Steve Smith
April 14, 2003, 01:15 PM
Hee Hee...I shoulda been watching this thread!

Yeah, I see things from a one-sided point of view. The main reason is that I'm not into guns themselves but the application of them. When you see me say "what is the point" it is just because I am always looking for the USE. Can't help it.

Art is the same way, actually. He sees things from a hunting point of view. Others see them from collecting points of view. I hope we make the forum more well rounded...I hope none of us are doing the opposite.

FWIW, I have gotten over 10 folks to start shooting HP through my posts. I consider that a tremendous contribution to the Shooting Sports and I will continue to do it. I have, however, been able to do most of it in the Comp forum since it is a different place than TFL's comp forum.

I thought Polish notation was a joke too. IMHO, it IS a joke.

April 14, 2003, 04:51 PM
Yeah, well, some folks seem to be roughly akin to an old neighbor of mine...

He collected and sold rare books.

He didn't read, beyond catalogs, etc....

I bought a copy of Capt. A.H. Bogardus' tome on shotgunning from him. He was downright shocked that I intended to read it.

I suspect that there are "gun people" who buy 'em to hang on the walls, but who are loathe to actually shoot one of 'em, which will turn it into a "used gun," vs. a "collector's item."

Not everything "gun" is about self defense, or about hunting, or about target shooting. One of the heavy reasons I like the "gun culture" is the people involved.

For that matter, when I finish my table lamps, I'll be posting pictures...

April 14, 2003, 09:25 PM
When you see me say "what is the point" it is just because I am always looking for the USE
Spoken like a TRUE engineer@ :D I love the way you think. How does the saying go? Something about utility being...

Oleg Volk
April 21, 2003, 10:48 PM
The main reason for the non-existence of the chit-chat forum is that it would require a lot of resources (mainly time for moderating) which could be better applied to the forums which cover more immediately acute issues. Other non-RKBA forums we have (Reloading or Blackpowder) are very quiet, chit-chat wouldn't be. So, with reluctance, we decided not to open one as it would digress from the perceived core mission and competence of THR.

April 22, 2003, 04:19 PM
Well, I finished one lamp the other day, and as soon as I take some pictures, I'll finish the other one...

April 23, 2003, 12:36 AM
I've noticed several threads in GD that I wondered why they were allowed to go on. A giant spider hiding behind a wall clock springs to mind. Then as I read the thread as to why OT threads are not allowed, I find myself in a discussion on calculators and Polish math. Hey, but no skin off my nose. You mods do a great job, still the best board and best people on the net.

April 24, 2003, 02:40 PM
Giant spiders, the walking undead, and Shiner Bock Beer are all part of our culture.

Personally, give me enough Shiner Bock Beer, and I'll be happy to deal with the walking undead... But that spider would get nuked from orbit...

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