Airsoft-wielding mugger shot by clerk


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Skeptic
December 29, 2005, 08:02 AM
What a moron...... Bringing a pellet gun to a gun fight. Gotta love that clerk..... shot 10 times! Now that will leave a mark!

http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2005/12/28/news/the_west/wedwst03.txt

Idaho smoke shop clerk fatally shoots masked intruder

By the Associated Press

STATE LINE, Idaho — Confronted by a masked man who pulled an apparent handgun and demanded money, a tobacco shop clerk pulled his own .40 caliber handgun and shot the intruder 10 times, killing him, a Kootenai County sheriff’s officer said Tuesday.

Killed was Joseph Kalani Hatchie, 47, of Otis Orchards, Wash. Sheriff’s Capt. Ben Wolfinger said Hatchie entered Lew’s Smoke Shop shortly before 8 p.m. Monday, wearing a gray ski mask.

The masked man aimed his weapon at the clerk’s chest and demanded money, Wolfinger said.

The clerk told sheriff’s deputies that he reached under the counter for a bag, came up instead with his semiautomatic and started firing.

When deputies and medics arrived, Hatchie was lying dead on the floor.

The weapon found with Hatchie turned out to be an air-powered pellet gun that looks identical to a Walther P-9 semiautomatic, Wolfinger said.

A check turned up no criminal convictions for Hatchie, Wolfinger added.

The clerk won’t be identified until the Kootenai County prosecutor’s office has reviewed the investigation.

“This is no different than any other criminal investigation where charges have not been filed,’’ Sheriff Rocky Watson said in a statement.

It is legal for business owners to arm themselves to protect against robberies, Wolfinger said.

Lew’s Smoke Shop has been robbed twice in the past five years, the sheriff’s department said.

An employee at Lew’s declined to comment Tuesday, except to say the store near Post Falls had resumed normal operations.

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Janitor
December 29, 2005, 08:09 AM
The weapon found with Hatchie turned out to be an air-powered pellet gun that looks identical to a Walther P-9 semiautomatic, Wolfinger said.
"Well ... considering that your gun says 'Replica' on the barrel and that mine says 'Desert Eagle point five-oh' ..."
-

entropy
December 29, 2005, 09:28 AM
My cousin brought a pellet gun to a gun fight with the PD. It's a good thing the cop who emptied his revolver at him was a lousy shot. It possibly could have been my Dad on the stake-out, and he's a good shot. My cousin was drunk and stoned when he and his roommate attempted a robbery, and he made the mistake of bringing a Crosman pellet pistol (the one that looks like a .45) and then a bigger mistake of pointing it at an LEO. He got 2 years to think about it,and has been on the straght and narrow (he won't even speed) since.:)

"Well ... considering that your gun says 'Replica' on the barrel and that mine says 'Desert Eagle point five-oh' ..." :evil:

CAS700850
December 29, 2005, 09:59 AM
In my experiences, many criminals choose to use pelet guns for crimes rather than a real gun, especially for robbery and theft offenses. They assume that there will be no need to do anything more than display a gun to gain compliance. And, if they get caught, they avoid the sentence enhancement for use of a firearm in a crime. Dumb, but you can almost see the logic.

ID_shooting
December 29, 2005, 11:48 AM
STATE LINE, Idaho - The Kootenai County Sheriff's Office said a store clerk at Lew's Smoke Shop located near State Line, Idaho, shot and killed a robbery suspect Monday night. The sheriff's office said the shooting happened around 8:00 p.m. Monday.

When law enforcement officers arrived at the scene, they found a white adult male, wearing a gray ski mask, dead on the floor of the smoke shop.

A store clerk shot and killed a robber during an attempted holdup at Lew's Smokeshop near State Line, Idaho Monday night.

Authorities said the suspect entered the store wearing a gray ski mask around 7:50 p.m. Monday and shoved what appeared to be a gun into the belly of the clerk behind the store counter. According to the sheriff's office, the clerk then reached down like he was picking up a bag and reached for a gun instead. The clerk then fired the weapon at the suspect, hitting him ten times.

Captain Ben Wolfinger said investigators spent the rest Monday night processing the crime scene. The suspect's gun used in the attempted robbery turned out to be an Airsoft pellet gun.

The suspect has been identified as 47-year-old Joseph Collony Hatchie of Otis Orchards, Washington. According to the sheriff's office, Hatchy did not have a criminal record.

The sheriff's office did not reveal the name of the clerk involved in the shooting. To see the entire press conference with Captain Ben Wolfinger, click on the Video-On-Demand link on the right side of this story.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/regional/stories/krem2_122705_statelineshooting.1c2649f5.html

If you watch the video, it is obvious that some reporter From Washington state is there asking questions about handgun licenses and is wondering why the clerk isn't in jail. It is nice to see the Sherriff put them in thier place.

Oh, this sounds like a good shoot to me.

boofus
December 29, 2005, 11:56 AM
:)

Molon Labe
December 29, 2005, 11:56 AM
The fact that it was an AirSoft is of no relevance.

[I]The clerk then fired the weapon at the suspect, hitting him ten times.Someone buy this man a beer!

Carl N. Brown
December 29, 2005, 12:39 PM
If the suspect put the clerk in fear of imminent threat to
his life or limb, WITH A FINGER IN HIS JACKET POCKET
posing as a gun, the clerk would be justified in shooting
til the threat was removed. Or at least that is how the
law was explained to me five years ago.

Using a fake weapon might be a factor in sentencing or
parole, but a victim in fear of their life is still a victim
in fear of their life.

Of course, someone will blame the AirSoft gun for the
suspect's actions and call for a ban on AirSoft guns.

When I talked with two local police detectives about
twenty years ago, they told me that one successful
armed robbery would be followed by repeats by the
perp or copycats, but one armed robber shot by victim
or cop would mean a six month or more hiatus on
armed robbery. Of course, this is a < 50,000 pop city.
News travels on the street and some perps weigh
their costs before committing crimes.

Preacherman
December 29, 2005, 12:49 PM
Duplicate threads merged.

ccw007
December 29, 2005, 02:03 PM
Of course, someone will blame the AirSoft gun for the
suspect's actions and call for a ban on AirSoft guns.

The ban would be to protect the Children, and the dumb criminals who use them in crimes. :rolleyes:

On a side note, my mom bought my nephew one of these things and he bought over to my house. I just so happened to have some orange spray paint so I enhanced it for him to make sure no one would mistake it as a real gun. I told him it would make it shoot better :evil:

HankB
December 29, 2005, 02:42 PM
On a side note, my mom bought my nephew one of these things and he bought over to my house. I just so happened to have some orange spray paint so I enhanced it for him to make sure no one would mistake it as a real gun. I told him it would make it shoot better And I remember using a black magic marker to make one of my toy guns look more realistic. :rolleyes: (Of course, 35-40 years ago, MOST toy guns were made to look realistic . . . and it never occured to us to rob a store or point them at a cop. Times change . . . and not always for the better.)

bratch
December 29, 2005, 04:24 PM
I just ordered a Caspian 1911 airsoft pistol to do FoF drills and some shooting drills around the house.

I'll dedicate my first few shots to the robber.

k_dawg
December 29, 2005, 05:26 PM
The ban would be to protect the Children, and the dumb criminals who use them in crimes. :rolleyes:

On a side note, my mom bought my nephew one of these things and he bought over to my house. I just so happened to have some orange spray paint so I enhanced it for him to make sure no one would mistake it as a real gun. I told him it would make it shoot better :evil:

well, truth be told.. I'ld assume a robber might paint a real gun with orange over it..

TexasRifleman
December 29, 2005, 05:31 PM
well, truth be told.. I'ld assume a robber might paint a real gun with orange over it..


Wasn't it Springfield Armory that was offering some wild colored 1911's a few years back for IPSC type shooters? Seems like I remember a neon green, some kind of red, orange, blue etc....

I don't think an orange tip would stop me from shooting someone that pointed one at me.

ccw007
December 29, 2005, 05:32 PM
well, truth be told.. I'ld assume a robber might paint a real gun with orange over it..

Yep they may, but it made me feel a little better seeing on there and my hope was it would keep him out of trouble. He has not gotten shot at so it must have worked :D.

GRB
December 29, 2005, 05:37 PM
Hit him all ten times, good shooting.

KaceCoyote
December 29, 2005, 05:38 PM
Wasn't it Springfield Armory that was offering some wild colored 1911's a few years back for IPSC type shooters? Seems like I remember a neon green, some kind of red, orange, blue etc....

I don't think an orange tip would stop me from shooting someone that pointed one at me.


I remember reading somewhere, or maybe I heard it... :confused: Anyway I've been informed that when your in a "fight or flight mode" the brain turns off all sorts of unimportant things, like the ability to see color. I've been in a few of these situations before , but I cant seem to remember if I saw color or not.

GRB
December 29, 2005, 07:26 PM
I remember reading somewhere, or maybe I heard it... :confused: Anyway I've been informed that when your in a "fight or flight mode" the brain turns off all sorts of unimportant things, like the ability to see color. I've been in a few of these situations before , but I cant seem to remember if I saw color or not.Whoever it was that said such about the brain shutting down functions such as the ability to see color during such a high stress encounter nust have been the one who was confused. My perception of detail during such a time is excellent as is the perception exhibited by many others. It would sure be hard to say, 'yes officer the bad-guy was wearing a red shirt', if you were a mugging victim and that claim held true. I realize that eyewitness testimony often stinks, but too many people remember such details for that statement to hold water.

KaceCoyote
December 29, 2005, 07:43 PM
Whoever it was that said such about the brain shutting down functions such as the ability to see color during such a high stress encounter nust have been the one who was confused. My perception of detail during such a time is excellent as is the perception exhibited by many others. It would sure be hard to say, 'yes officer the bad-guy was wearing a red shirt', if you were a mugging victim and that claim held true. I realize that eyewitness testimony often stinks, but too many people remember such details for that statement to hold water.



My take is that there is two mental states to enter into. The Fight, where things appear very clear and one's perception of time slows down radically. Flight, where alot've sensory states get shut down and a calm rational human being is turned into 200lbs of panic.

GRB
December 29, 2005, 08:07 PM
Actually there are now, I believe, three accepted responses to a threat. Fight, flight and freeze; I have in the past proposed a third: compliance. Even if you only consider two of them, fight and flight, what would make you think that someone who flees a threat is turned into someone who is in a panic? I was in a situation that initially imvolved a fight, I realized the bad guy was getting the better of me and I wa slikely to be severely injured maybe even killed. I could have shot him but was not in a good position to do so without possibly hurting myself instead. I was able to break away, then I left the scene far enough off to be out of harms way but not far enough to be unable to take down enough information for the police when I called for backup.

I am not saying I am exceptional in having done so, I just was logical. I am saying not everyone who flees does so in a panic, then again not everyone in a fight has clear perception of the events. In fact even those who fight can be in a panic at the same time they are fighting - the panic maybe what has spurred them on to the fight response. As for the perception of time slowing down, that certainly sometimes happens in people who do not know what to expect in a high stress situatiuon such as a fight for your life. Such a response to a threat situation is not perceiving things clearly (as you seemingly implied), rather it is actually distortion of your perception of your senses - the timeline has in effect blurred. You can have a distorted perception of the events whether you fight, flee or freeze (or even comply). Just because you flee does not mean you see things all hazy or do not perceive things normally, just because you fight does not make you perceive them better. A thing that really helps with your perception of events is a very brief amount of training in what to expect when you find yourself in a potentially life threatening situation. The difference between what a person so trained tells about the events and one who was not so trained are often vast, the one who received the training is later usually the one found to be much closer to spot on reality in his/her description of the events.

All the best,
GB

jtward01
December 29, 2005, 08:23 PM
In my experiences, many criminals choose to use pelet guns for crimes rather than a real gun, especially for robbery and theft offenses. They assume that there will be no need to do anything more than display a gun to gain compliance. And, if they get caught, they avoid the sentence enhancement for use of a firearm in a crime. Dumb, but you can almost see the logic.

In Florida using a toy gun, air soft gun, pellet gun or .45acp makes no difference. The sentence is the same.

I have two air soft guns. Neither says "replica" anywhere on them. The 1911 looks especially real.

My Springfield 1911A1 in .45acp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/jtward01/01my1911.jpg

My air soft 1911A1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/jtward01/airsoft.jpg

Could you tell which is real and which is air soft during the stress of a robbery?

strambo
December 29, 2005, 08:23 PM
Airsoft guns are great! Great raining tools, great for force on force and a great game. These instances should in no way encourage banning them...far from it. This sort of thing is a good unintended consequence of their realistic appearance. I mean, would folks who want airsoft guns banned because they look realistic prefer the criminals use the real thing? I say have airsoft gun give aways and encourage dumb crooks to use them!:evil: Almost makes it unsporting.:D

gulogulo1970
December 29, 2005, 08:24 PM
10 times! Well, you don't need to worry about one shot stop percentages. :evil:

Ten 40's would bring down a bear. Good shooting Tex.

Jet22
December 29, 2005, 08:44 PM
Last year a guy and his girlfriend were having a fight at three in the morning. She called 911. He grabbed a couple of chrome plastic single action Colt replicas (he had no guns in the house or he probably would have grabbed the real thing) and told her he was going to get the police to kill him when they got there. She tells the 911 operator what his plan is and that he has plastic guns and dosen't own a real weapon. The 911 operator relays this to the two Deputies. The Cops get there and he is on the porch (drunk) and waving the chrome six shooters around. He points them at the Cops and they kill him dead with multiple gunfire. No charges were brought against the Deputies by the County Prosecutor. Ruled justifiable.

Moral of the story: Don't point plastic guns (or cell phones for that matter) at police unless you have a death wish.

carebear
December 29, 2005, 08:54 PM
In Florida using a toy gun, air soft gun, pellet gun or .45acp makes no difference. The sentence is the same.

I have two air soft guns. Neither says "replica" anywhere on them. The 1911 looks especially real.

My Springfield 1911A1 in .45acp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/jtward01/01my1911.jpg

My air soft 1911A1
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/jtward01/airsoft.jpg

Could you tell which is real and which is air soft during the stress of a robbery?

Yep, the Airsoft one would not be returning effective fire. Unless it was pointed at my eyes as I fired. :evil:

Standing Wolf
December 29, 2005, 09:05 PM
The clerk then fired the weapon at the suspect, hitting him ten times.

Somebody has put in some range time!

According to the sheriff's office, Hatchy did not have a criminal record.

Amazing!

Hardtarget
December 29, 2005, 09:19 PM
Ten hits! I'm impressed. I'm sure it would be EASY to miss is that kind of stress. I also liked how the officer refered to dead guy as the "deceased robber"...not a victim. I don't think he referred to the BG as a gentleman either. Tough way for the clerk to end the year.
Mark.

JohnKSa
December 29, 2005, 10:23 PM
The robber was clearly a major moron.















If he had any brains he would have fallen down after the first shot... :evil:

Pilgrim
December 29, 2005, 11:14 PM
Police discourage guns at work
By BRIAN WALKER
Staff writer

Having weapon at business can easily backfire on employee

POST FALLS -- Having a gun behind the counter may have protected a smoke shop clerk during an armed robbery attempt on Monday night and the case could be a deterrent to those contemplating the crime.

But some police officials still recommend not having a firearm at most businesses.

"This situation appears to have worked in (the clerk's) favor, but in many cases across the U.S. it doesn't happen that way," said Post Falls Police Lt. Scot Haug, who teaches a defensive tactics and use of force course at North Idaho College.

"You always want to discourage a shootout."

Having a weapon at a business can easily backfire on the employee, Haug said.

"What can happen is that the weapon could be turned around and used on them or bystanders can be at risk," he said. "In some types of business settings, having a firearm can cause more problems than benefits. Overall, we'd recommend not having a gun involved in these situations, but it's certainly up to the business and well within their right to have it there."

Robbery suspect Joseph Kalani Hatchie, 47, Otis Orchards, Wash., entered Lew's Smoke Shop in State Line on Monday with an unloaded air pistol. He grabbed the male clerk behind the counter, stuck the pistol into his belly and demanded money, the clerk told Kootenai County sheriff's investigators.

When the clerk reached under the counter for a bag, he came up with his own .40 caliber semi-automatic pistol and shot Hatchie 10 times. Hatchie died at the scene. The clerk's name has not been released because no charges have been filed.

Haug said he's not surprised that the clerk had a gun, especially since the smoke shop has been robbed several times in the past. If the clerk felt his life was threatened, Haug does not blame the clerk for taking the action.

It may have been one of those cases where it was justifiable to have a gun at work.

"I'm not taking a side of whether it was right or wrong, and I'm certainly not criticizing this incident," Haug said.

But he said in most cases police would rather see citizens be good witnesses until police arrive on scene.

"We need them to be a good set of eyes so that when we arrive they have a good description of the suspect," Haug said. "Generally, we'd rather not see the public take action to try to stop this type of crime."

The key on whether to allow an employee to have a gun at work is training, Haug said.

"If anyone is carrying a weapon, proper training, when to use it and when not to, is paramount," he said. "We wouldn't want to see anyone packing a gun to work without training."

Haug said weapons at businesses aren't rare or illegal.

"We know of several businesses that keep guns behind the counter," he said. "When you start looking at the crime history at a business, you have a better understanding of why the employee or business owner are taking precautions."

Haug, like Kootenai County sheriff's spokesman Ben Wolfinger, said it wasn't unusual nor surprising for the clerk to shoot Hatchie 10 times.

"With a semi-automatic, you can fire off 10 rounds in a matter a couple seconds," he said. "Before that perceived threat stops, the gun can be empty."

He said people have to put themselves in the clerk's shoes.

"When you go into survival mode, your intent is to stop the threat," Haug said. "And if you stop (firing) prematurely, that threat could come back."

Haug said the case could be a deterrent for those thinking of committing such a crime.

"It certainly would be for me," he said. "I'd think twice before robbing a store. We'll never know the effects for sure, but it should send a message that this kind of stuff happens."

Neither the owner of the smoke shop nor Hatchie's family could be reached for comment.

Kootenai County Prosecutor Bill Douglas will decide whether the shooting was justifiable. The investigation will be presented to him late this week or early next week at the earliest.

Even though the clerk is technically considered a suspect, he was not taken into custody.

The air pistol Hatchie had looks identical to a Walther P-9 semi-automatic, and even has the Walther name on it. It shoots 6-mm plastic pellets.

According to a KXLY TV report, Hatchie was a husband and father of six. Both he and his wife had been laid off from their jobs and were given an eviction notice, the report stated.

Hatchie does not have a criminal record, making the case "rather unique," Wolfinger said.

The sheriff's office released no new details on the case on Wednesday.

http://www.cdapress.com/articles/2005/12/29/news/news03.txt

carebear
December 29, 2005, 11:45 PM
That's a pretty fair set of statements for a guy who has to represent the city (potential liability wise)

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