[Chris Rhines]

Interesting happenings in the Gulf. Please, please, do me the favor of not turning this into a thread on "my religon is better than your religon."

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/5554317.htm

CAMP BUSHMASTER, Iraq - In this dry desert world near Najaf, where the Army V Corps combat support system sprawls across miles of scabrous dust, there's an oasis of sorts: a 500-gallon pool of pristine, cool water.
It belongs to Army chaplain Josh Llano of Houston, who sees the water shortage, which has kept thousands of filthy soldiers from bathing for weeks, as an opportunity.
''It's simple. They want water. I have it, as long as they agree to get baptized,'' he said.
And agree they do. Every day, soldiers take the plunge for the Lord and come up clean for the first time in weeks.
''They do appear physically and spiritually cleansed,'' Llano said.
First, though, the soldiers have to go to one of Llano's hour-and-a-half sermons in his dirt-floor tent. Then the baptism takes an hour of quoting from the Bible.
''Regardless of their motives,'' Llano said, ``I get the chance to take them closer to the Lord.''

I'm amazed that this is permitted in the US military. Also seems like a pretty mean thing to do to one's fellow troops.

- Chris

[cordex]

I agree, Chris.
Silly, petty and unjust.

[rennaissancemann]

If this story is true, Chaplain Josh Llano's superior officer needs to calibrate his subordinate.

[TarpleyG]

Religion is very important in the military. I remember when I was in boot camp I HAD to go to church on Sunday regardless of whether I wanted to or needed to. The Sr. DI didn't care for excuses and no one argued with SSgt. Reynolds. And, if you were Jewish, you had to go on Friday night whether you wanted to or not.

GT

[Justin]

So I take it that now the military is issuing religion along with rifles, rations, tanks, ammo, cots, and all the other gear?

[Felonious Monk]

No, the military issued religion beginning a long time ago, when people started coming face to face with their own mortality.

Foxhole conversion, I think, is the term.

This "save your soul and scrub your sweaty body", though, is a crappy tactic, IMHO...
Get a bath and a new Eternal Life while you're at it.
Cheapens it. Trivializes it. Not good.

[Detachment Charlie]

I read the article. I stopped and calmed down. Now I'll try to comment rationally.
This chaplain demeans himself, his beliefs, his ceremony (or sacrament) and the troops to whom he is supposed to minister. The ONLY good to come out of this is some troops get cleaned up.
This makes the South Park episode about Starvin' Marvin and the missionaries seem prophetic.
I am revolted. :barf:

[Phantom Warrior]

First of all, no one is forcing these soldiers to be baptized. They are perfectly free to opt out. No where does the article mention orders from superior officers or the brass (that's the extent of my military lingo... ;) ) regarding this. And since Mr. Llano is a chaplain he is perfectly free to share his faith with other soldiers.

Furthermore, as is often the case in situations where death may be imminent, many soldiers have taken a new interest in church and faith. Some have even decided to become Christians or pick up a faith they discarded as children.

That said, I don't entirely agree with what he is doing. I come from the tradition of pouring a little water on someone's forehead vs. the "full-immersion" baptism Mr. Llano is using, so this is a little unusual for me. I don't disagree with that method, but flaunting that much water in a desert where everyone is thirsty and dirty seems like poor taste. And baptism is not something to be undertaken merely as a ministry tool. It is a statement of faith for that person (or that person's parents, in the case of infants). And it should be a _voluntary_ statement of faith, not one produced under coercion or the promise of rewards.

And frankly, I think using that much water in that way is likely to engender more negative feelings (as it has here) than postive interest. Mr Llano's goal of bringing more people to Christ is admirable, but his methods fall short.

[cordex]

No, the military issued religion beginning a long time ago, when people started coming face to face with their own mortality.

Foxhole conversion, I think, is the term.
Is one thing to minister to guys who want to find a previously unknown (to them) higher power to pray to while the bullets are flying and another to say "you can bathe only if you go through a religious ceremony of a creed that may or may not be compatible with yours".

There's the old saying that "there are no atheists in a foxhole" ... aparently there aren't too many at the water hole either. *grin*

[firestar]

I would take the bath but then I would crawfish on the deal and go back to not caring about religion.:D What is he going to do? :neener:

It is nice to see this water being used for a good purpose and not being wasted on the people that are in need of drinking water.:rolleyes:

[Malone LaVeigh]

Another war where everybody's got God on their side. Lots of souls being saved on both.

[Dannyboy]

Since when do chaplains control anything in the military, other than the chapels? Sounds like a big load of crap.

[Don Gwinn]

Thanks, Dannyboy, that's what I was wondering. How did the Chaplain come to own a 500-gallon tank in an Army camp?

It sounds like the real story is that he's found a loophole in regulations. It sounds like for some reason they were crazy enough to give him a 500-gallon tank for baptisms, and he doesn't allow soldiers to bathe in it (against which there are probably standing orders) but he does allow them to take the baptismal. Frankly I question how clean one can become during a baptism--unless his "baptism" means letting them scrub in the tub for awhile.

It sure does sound low, but if that's the way of it, it also raises an important question: Whose idea was it to set aside a 500-gallon tank of water for the Chaplain to baptize soldiers in when they're fighting in a desert?

[buzz_knox]

This "chaplain" seems to have skipped a couple of seminary classes, where they taught the purpose behind baptism, and the penalty for taking sacraments without one's whole heart. Based on the story as presented here, he's a chump.

[bountyhunter]

This chaplain is a genuine fool and embarrasses all Christians. I guess he doesn't have a clue what baptism is about or what it means. You can't blackmail people into believing.

[Jim March]

From a PR standpoint, this is completely and utterly psychotic WHEN WE'RE IN THE PROCESS OF INVADING A MUSLIM/ARAB COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:banghead:

Right, this applies to US troops. Doesn't matter. This ONE idiot is going to single-handledly convince the Arab world that we're on a "Christian Jihad" of some sort.

"Stupid" doesn't even BEGIN.

He should be defrocked, ejected from Iraq in chains and court-marshalled *immediately*. Not because he actually deserves quite all that; he is only really guilty of stupidity. But if we DON'T fry his butt harsh, we're going to face a friggin' *horde* of Islamic volunteers from all over, stirred up by Al Jaziira :fire:.

[OF]

Is there any additional source on this? Is the Miami Herald the only source? My BS meter is pretty much pegged.

- Gabe

[Chris Rhines]

GRD -

The story got picked up by Knight-Ridder, so it has been reprinted all over. That's not independent confirmation, of course, but I doubt that Knight-Ridder would reprint an urban legend.

- Chris

[Azrael256]

One of the Methodist Elders here read this and said "That irritates the snot out of me." (That's as close as these folk come to profanity, which is quite refreshing) I'm not Christian, but the idea of bribing somebody into a religious sacrament like this... well, it stinks.

[Selfdfenz]

Example of an Islamic excess is their advocacy in many parts that all infidels shall be killed, man, woman and child.

Example of a Christain excess is some Chaplin baptises a bunch of dirty overworked Marines in his private waterhole.

Example of THR excess we go ballistic over the Chaplin.

Don't agree with this fellow or what he is doing but come on guys...........take a chill pill.

On the Evilness scale of 1 to 10 I give the Islamic guys a 9 on the bad end.
This Chaplin does not even rate a 1. High on the bad judgement scale, high on the misquided scale of what baptism means.....but not evil.


S-

[Waitone]

Story sounds bogus to me.

Internal inconsistencies.

[Jim March]

It's not evil. It's just abysmally stupid.

Stupidity at THAT level can and should reap serious punishment.

[MeekandMild]

Jim ITS FAKE! Figure it out for yourself. This is some lefty's idea of a joke, like pretending they are in the Red Cross and calling families in the middle of the night to announce their sons are dead.

How long do you think 500 gallons of water would remain "pristine" if you and your dog took a bath in it, much less a few hundred soldiers?

Where have you ever seen a chaplain who didn't follow military discipline? Chaplains are not Geraldo, they are members of the unit.

[Hard Charger]

Just another opportunity to slam religion.

[hondo68]

it could smoke out a few of more openly hostle muslims for the Crusaders. That's a good thing. Might as well send them to join allah in hell now. When the sleepers join in, repeat as necessary.

A clever piece of psy ops! :cool:

[Sir Galahad]

This sounds like an urban legend. Someone could check snopes.com and see if it's listed there. I never saw any Sky Pilots in the army push religion on anyone at any post I was stationed at. In basic, a rabbi did come to see if there were any Jewish soldiers just to let them know arrangements could be made for them on Shabbes and let them know there were rabbis in the army in case they didn't know. But he didn't tell them they had to come, either. Another reason this sounds like BS is because the army chaplains manual also takes into account religions such as Wicca, so doing something as divisive as this seems suspect.

[Pendragon]

1. Any top level officer that gives a chaplain 500gals of water in a desert war should be relieved.

2. You dont need that much water for a baptism - there is some debate among sects as to whether immersion or sprinkling is ok - but it is a symbolic act, the props are not as important as the act of faith.

3. Christ would not have done such a thing - he would have used to water for drinking or bathing or something.

4. It would be a lot more "christian" to use the water in a more utilitarian manner.

5. I would not want to be baptised after a few unwashed soldiers were dunked - these guys are going days and weeks without cleaning up. Something rarely mentioned or discussed. If you had that much water, you should use it to make ten 50 gallon dunk refills...

6. This is just too silly and probably is psy-ops...

[Glock Glockler]

Chris, you don't appear very consistent, I thought you were all about property rights:p If the water is his property, why shouldn't he be able to do whatever hell he bloody well pleases with it?

Granted, I think the chaplain is a real bullocks if that's what he's doing, but it's his right, no?

OTOH, if it's the Army's water, that's a different story.

[MPFreeman]

What if this 500Gallon Tank is the bapistry? And the purpose of the tank is to baptise people in a proper full emersion baptism? I wouldn't be suprised that some of the Catholic chaplain/priests are carrying vials of holy water for the consecration of the dead during last rights sacrement.

Some of you guys need to relax. If this preacher/chaplain has been baptising folks with <SHOCK>..WATER, the question is not why a probable Baptist/Church of Christ preacher has a bapistry, but why hasn't the logistics command not properly supplied our honorable troops with water.

However, IMO from my personal Christian world view, the said preacher should remember the words of his lord by giving him a drink of water when he is thirsty.

[bad_dad_brad]

I think this report is totaly bogus.

Babtism is either done in most Christian denominations:

As an infant to wash away, via the water of life, orginal sin (not necessarily christening, although many denominations will honor a christening as babtism - Lutherans for instance).

Or:

As a self aware individual Christian who understands and accepts the meaning of babtism.

There are exceptions of course. Babtists for instance, maintain you can only be babtized when you are a self-aware Christian.

No Christian minister would hold the water of life as hostage against thirst. That is just totally obscene and most assuredly untrue.

[ahadams]

I'm sorry but this sort of activity would not be supported by any major denomination I know of (and I am an Anglican who has contacts with a bunch of folks including Baptists and Pentecostals, as well as Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and well, you get the idea).

Has anybody verified this story through a second source?

There were instances back before the start of the current festivities of immersion baptisms by chaplains at the request of specific marines and soldiers, but that was done in what was basically a fighting hole lined with plastic sheets - immersion occurred by the guy squatting down in the hole till the water went over his head - the chaplain said the words and then took his hand off the guy's head and he stood up again.

I have to say the original 'news' story sounds like fiction to me.

[Preacherman]

Folks, this story just HAS to be bogus! In the Catholic Church, and as far as I know in ALL Christian churches, baptism MUST be freely chosen, by the one being baptized (or his/her parents in the case of a baby), without coercion, bribery, influence or pressure. If these latter conditions are present, the baptism is INVALID, because it was not freely willed. It's like a "shotgun wedding" - if the marriage vows are not freely exchanged, with full consent, and without ANY outside pressure whatsoever, the marriage is invalid.

Sorry, I can't believe this story - and if it's true, I'll guarantee you that the chaplain's denomination will be swift to discipline him.

[Chris Rhines]

Glockler - I'm assuming from the article that the water belonged to the Army. On the other hand, if the chaplain owns the water, then it's a deal between him and his church. I'm not a religious man, but I cannot imagine any church being pleased with his actions. Nor the Army.

All - I'm still looking for third-party verification. I repeat for the record, this story came from a mainstream newspaper, there from a mainstream wire service. I see no reason to dismiss it as false out of hand.

- Chris

[Blackhawk]

I'm amazed that this is permitted in the US military. Also seems like a pretty mean thing to do to one's fellow troops.You're amazed, and I don't believe the story.

[jmbg29]

Camp Bushmaster?:confused: :confused:

Why didn't they just say Chaplain Tomas de Torquemada while they're at it.

Chris, did you ever meet/run across/see a chaplain that acted like this one during your military experience?:confused:

[Feanaro]

If this is true, it's idiotic. I'm sure a "good" God(IE, not the one in the Old Testament...) would look down on this too. Denying people bathing water until they agree to join your religion isn't very nice. Do unto others and all that.

[edamon]

sounds like BS.

-d

[Khornet]

my religion can beat up your religion.

Sorry--couldn't resist

[Khornet]

That chaplain should washed out of the program.
You guys are throwing the baby out with the Baath water.
Mission shoulda been scrubbed.
Sounds like soap opera to me.
Probably a serious drain on resources too.
Guy's a dip, anyway.
Hussein this story is authentic?
Post another like that, and Al Nasiriyah.
Now don't Basra me anymore. I'm gonna go drown my sorrows.

[seeker_two]

One of the Methodist Elders here read this and said "That irritates the snot out of me."

Me too!...:fire:

If this IS a real story, then the good chap may find himself the target for a "religious discrimination" charge in "today's" Army. I wouldn't expect him to hold on to "his" water for long...

I repeat for the record, this story came from a mainstream newspaper, there from a mainstream wire service. I see no reason to dismiss it as false out of hand.

And we ALL know how trustworthy the mainstream media is...:banghead:

A brash colonel bringing a couple of squads of his thirsty troops up to be "baptized" & then "acquisitioning" the rest of the "baptistry" so that his troops can "spread the gospel" to the rest of the battalion...

[LiquidTension]

If soldiers are already baptized, do they get to bathe anyway? :scrutiny: