Check Your Carry Loads!!


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sm
December 29, 2005, 05:48 PM
Mr. Murphy was in town today!!

We "think" Winchester White Box 9mm 115gr JHP Personal Protection Lot # 25VF**

We do not have the last 2 numbers, boxes were tossed into burning barrel and this is all I could make out.

Single Mom of two, Glock 26 her CCW gun. These loads were in her gun and she has been carrying these loads. Also in Spare Mags.

She has run at least 400 rds of these loads - including the 3 mags she uses for spares, and the two others she keeps for backup, general principle. She bought 2 more boxes of these right after she had run these test loads with NO problems at all.

She then went on to test other Ammo choices, Hydra-Shocks, Speer Gold Dots, etc. My idea to test and know for sure. That "not be tied to one" bit.

Okay, so in the course of Shooting Carry Loads, as we all do in the course of Inspect and Maintain weekly, or when exposed to elements and such...she will load up with fresh ammo and keep the old carry loads (chambered / rechambered) for range ammo.

Ammo is kept in a cool dry place.

Cars need fixing, kids get sick, holidays happen...and since 400+ plus tested great of this WWB JHP she will use this instead of buying some of her Preferred Carry Ammo. I mean she just needs to get by until everything settles and ...

Click! That is the loudest sound one never wants to hear!
She immediatly did a Tap,Rack, Bang..

Click!
Rack slide- Drops mag, inserts spare mag, grasps slide, lets fly...

Click!

Mommie- Whats wrong?

I flat lied to this child. " Mom is doing some new stuff, it is okay". I lied because I did not want this child to have any fears, I will not go into background, just besides being a Mom, this child and the other one needs to feel safe with Mom's guns working. Kids are okay and understand CCW firearms...firearms safety and such.

Mom has gone forward, kicked the target in the gonads and sliced its throat with her Benchmade.

Mom is shaking, the pit of my stomach has a knot, and "I could have"

"Don't go there yet".

NOT the Gun. Gun fired the Blazer, Fiocchi, and my Old carry ammo we had.
Tried this WWB JHP ammo in another Glock 17, nope. Glock 17 ran with everything else fine.

Mr. Murphy Tainted the CCW ammo. Life happens, it sucks, still it happens.

I inserted this bad ammo ammo into my Keltec P-11, which has a hammer, not striker fired.
First pull of trigger "click" second pull "bang", sometimes it took 4 pulls of trigger for this ammo to fire.

At this point - forget malf drills, we just wanted this ammo used up.

Her gun never missed a beat with Blazer, Fiochhi, loadings I had brought. Nor did her gun have a problem with her older Premium Loading removed, or my Older CCW loads.

For safety/ peace of mind she has since run by the gunsmith, Glocks are both fine.

Her gun has tested 150 rds of Fed 124 Hydra-Shock, that is what I had in mine. I let her shoot my Carry mag and spare mags of these in her gun- no problems. So she loaded up her gun and spare mag with the one extra box I had of these in the truck.

I am not going to let a mom with one child with her, be without CCW ammo. She was going to get the other kid and return her dad's Glock 17.

I was CCW-ing with Fiochhi FMJ until I got home to change my CCW loads.

...and believe me, shooting that child's .22 rifle was some great stress relief for us all. Oh the kid had fun, kid just does not fully understand how her rifle really helped Mom.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter -CRSam

This lady is waiting for a OLDer J frame to come her way. "I understand why folks carry a second gun,and why often it is a revolver".

I called my gunbuddy and suggested he tell the fella to hurry up and bring that J- frame up - or I/ we were going to come pick it up!

Check your CCW loads, inspect and maintain, never be complacent. Have a plan, another plan, another...

Hell hath no fury like a single mom, with a Glock that goes Click, that can make use of her foot and knee, and carries a Benchmade.

"I was going to survive..."

For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.--Rudyard Kipling

Steve.

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larry_minn
December 29, 2005, 06:05 PM
Dang.... Never had something like that happen. It can happen. IMO if she could go on to changing mags/kicking/cutting BG she can handle it.
I have carried different ammo in spare mag in past. (normally something with slightly more penetration) (ok cheap FMJ practice rds) Might be a good reason to have different ammo. I could count rds that didn't function (first pull) of factory ammo on one hand with fingers left over.

Bob F.
December 29, 2005, 06:19 PM
Excellent post, again, Sir. I've gotten lazy. WWB 115gr JHp's in Glock (primary carry) since mid-summer, Hornady JHP's in 9x18 PA-63 truck gun. PA's only reliabe w/ good ammo, oll Mak shot everything I fed it.

Should have a good payday next week, better start stocking up on premium ammo for ccw. Thanks for the reminder.
Stay safe.
Bob

sm
December 29, 2005, 06:21 PM
When you have had your feet pulled out from under you, because some guy was underneath your car in a parking deck, your blouses get ripped, bra breaks, and screaming for help does not get anyone attenton...
...

You fight, anyway you can, kick, bite, use nails and turn into a Honeybadger.

Guy gets hurt, scared, runs off...

I lived closer, I get frantic knock on my door, this is what I opened it to.

Lady looks like hell, cries, gets mad, shaking. We call Police, Report taken. I give her a shirt to wear. Call parents and tell them what happened and kids get to spend the night at Grandparents one more night. You are a friend to someone in need.

Multiple showers do nothing to remove the feel of slimy hands that went up your dress and went were they should not.

" I just moved back and not knowing what all is involved in CCW here...I can shoot, raised with guns...just where my husband and I were the gun laws...
...then that drunk driver..."

Screw the rules. Daddy and I made haste on some matters. She may or may not have CCW-ed until persmission papers arrived...but by golly she was ....well you get the idea.

Child of T-Ball age is hell on wheels using a T- Ball Bat.

"Like this mommie?' Whack!

5 gal paint can didn't have a prayer.

Oscar Orum
December 29, 2005, 06:36 PM
sm,
Thanks for the excellent posts. You really bring it home in manner that we all can understand. We should all take heed. It may happen to a loved one or even you.

Berek
December 29, 2005, 09:19 PM
I know the scenario. There was a cheap ammo company (haven't seen it since like '96 ot '97) and my mom had purchased a box for her carry. I had problems with their 9mm and my dad had probs with their .357M. When I saw that she bought it for her carry, I bought a box of Federal and tried to convince her to trade out her ammo. We got in an argument. After dinner, she took a nap, as usual, and I removed her mag, emptied it, reloaded it with the Federal and replaced her carry. Double checked to make sure that I left one in the chamber as she had. I then grabbed the rest of the box (not a single round fired) and put the Federal in its place with a note saying "It's only because I care."

I then disposed of the crap ammo.

I used to live in Buffalo (another story, but related) and there was a pounding on my door at about 11:30 at night. A girl was in a bar down the street (I lived off the main drag and the bar was on the same side-street) and, when she decided to leave, she was raped. When I opened the door, all I saw was a naked woman in heeled sandels and nothing else. I let her in and my g/f got her one of my shirts to wear (I wear a tall, covered this girl to the ankles, almost).

I called the police and she begged if she could use my bathroom. Wanting to make sure she was just answering nature's call, I asked her. She wanted to shower. By the time the police arrived, I felt like the lowest form of life by depriving her of "washing" herself. I can't imagine what it was like and one of the officers, who was also a friend of mine, finally convinced me I did the right thing. Didn't make me feel any better.

Because of that girl, I refused to let my mom carry crap ammo. When I saw my mom after that, she just looked at me, looked at her purse and then smiled at me. Appearently, she got the message.

Bottom line, use ammo you can trust in your carry and carry a backup with a different lot or brand.

Just my $0.02.

PS: Never did get my shirt back, but I did get a thank you card. The card was worth more than the cost of the shirt.

Hardtarget
December 29, 2005, 09:34 PM
I have some Win. ammo but I only target shoot with this. I was given some ammo once and told to "shoot it up". Three boxes of it. Cool. I'll go shoot. Every other one failed to fire. Only good for FTF drills. Took a while to get rid of it.What I had was Precisson Ammo. Its the only ammo my gun ever had trouble with.
Mark
ps: Johnson's commentary on Murphy: Murphy was an optimest.

scubie02
December 29, 2005, 10:38 PM
so...is the message here that winchester white box ammo is crap? I've fired an awful lot of 9mm and 45 acp wwb downrange and have yet to have a failure. Actually, the ONLY time I've ever had a faliure of any kind was with a federal hydrashok I believe--whatever the one is with the little post thingy. Im not sure what to think of as "cheap crap ammo", since I've fired alot of Fiocchi, PMC, Magtech...probably others I'm not thinking of, and can't say I recall a failure with any of them? :confused:

Manedwolf
December 29, 2005, 10:40 PM
so...is the message here that winchester white box ammo is crap? I've fired an awful lot of 9mm and 45 acp wwb downrange and have yet to have a failure. Actually, the ONLY time I've ever had a faliure of any kind was with a federal hydrashok I believe--whatever the one is with the little post thingy. Im not sure what to think of as "cheap crap ammo", since I've fired alot of Fiocchi, PMC, Magtech...probably others I'm not thinking of, and can't say I recall a failure with any of them? :confused:

Black Hills. Good, good stuff.

sm
December 29, 2005, 11:27 PM
My original post was NOT about :

-Brand of Ammo
-Caliber of Ammo
-Firearm Platform
-Firearm Manufacturer.

My original Post IS

-There are NO Absolutes!

About the only absolute I subscribe to - if one ever draws a breath, someday they will not.

We all get caught up in This vs That be it brand names, calibers, platforms, ammo, manufacturers...you name it.

There is more to responsible firearm ownership than firearms.

I, whom admits having never attended a known training school, even knows the trainers of various skills, including firearms, knives, martial arts, canes, ...etc., instruct to NOT take any skill, tool, lessons and whatever else for granted.

Mindset, willingness to survive, awareness...etc. These are the tools one uses to stay safe.

One trains the brain, learns the correct basic fundamentals and keeps practicing these - forever.

One always has the brain, these other "tools" may not be with you, may fail, may - whatever.

I have since spoken with the lady to check on her. She felt a little odd about kicking gonads and using a Benchmade.

She went for her NAA .22 mini revolver, instinct if you will. It was not on her person, I had it, had been shooting it. Hers btw she sent to NAA and has the Laynard Ring, she can wear it around her neck or other uses for Laynard Ring.

Even tho we were out to "just shoot" and let her kid shoot, she kicked into her training! She does not owe me, or herself any apologies. I explained why I lied to her child. She is okay with this.

I once busted the muzzle of a shotgun,and busted the stock too- impromtu training, the drill was to survive. My guns were loaded for me...folks tossed another BG Target to see what I would do, I attacked the steel with the shotgun. They felt really bad, I didn't ....after I calmed down anyway.

Just some matters in regard to thinking about responsible firearm ownership is all.

Steve

larry_minn
December 29, 2005, 11:51 PM
ANY brand/manufacture/etc can have a bad run. OR this ammo could have been shipped somewhere where it got warm/cold/hot/etc and was damp the entire time. (poor waterproofing of primer)/stored in 110 degree heat in closed truck (temps over 150 for hours) or bad primers.
It can happen. IIRC the only factory rd I have ever seen was a $$$$ personal defense ammo. It was not mine but I was shown it. Might have been hydroshock but not sure anymore.

Tharg
December 30, 2005, 01:08 AM
Heh - remember makin my girl run through her "SD" load of her mag and getting her to buy new for several reasons...

for one to be sure it fed right...

for two cause its old...

for three... hell cause we had the 'lets left over...

just don't hurt to run what cha' gonna run through it ANY time... and why let it age...if you don't have to.

J/Tharg!

Fred Fuller
December 30, 2005, 07:34 AM
Seems like I keep opening replies to your threads with "Dang, Steve."

You are of course completely right that there are no absolutes where anything mechanical is concerned. No telling what will go wrong at any time, Murphy is always present and it doesn't pay to forget that. Parts work fine until they break, ammo runs fine until it doesn't etc. Pays to be prepared to keep centered under pressure, practice malfunction drills, carry a spare magazine always, carry a backup gun (or two) if you feel the need to carry a primary. Used to emphasize in Operations and Intelligence training at work way back when, have a Plan A, plus a Plan B in case Plan A goes sideways, and an "O. S." Plan too just in case it all goes bad.

Even pays to think through different places to carry backup, may happen to need a 'high line' carry if for some reason you can't reach your waist or pockets where your 'low line' primary carry and your backup most likely are. Recently heard about a fellow who got his pants snatched in a mugging, if you lost your pants would you lose ALL your hardware too? Been thinking about a 'neck gun' my own self, there's a .22LR NAA mini revolver handy... used to be someone was making a nice Kydex neck holster for them, wonder if they still are?

There are NO hardware solutions that will fix software/wetware problems, no matter who you are/what you do, Murphy awaits you. Get your software/wetware straightened out first, hardware solutions will follow...

lpl/nc (MUSHware in my case...)

middy
December 30, 2005, 11:20 AM
Any brand can have a bad run, but I believe WWB has automated QC, I don't think a real live inspector vets a sample of each run like premium ammo.

Premium Winchester is excellent stuff.

motorep
December 30, 2005, 12:04 PM
As others have said, it can happen with any manufacturer. I had the same experience with .45 230 grain Federal Hydrashoks. Shooting up some that had been cycled a bunch of times, I had 3 rounds that failed to fire. Ran them through 4 different guns- duds. Yeah, I carry a j-frame too...

benEzra
December 30, 2005, 01:44 PM
The only failure of any kind I've ever had with my S&W 3913LS was a bad round of Winchester white box FMJ. The round failed to fire, then failed to fire on restrike. I cleared it and examined it, and the firing pin had dented the primer to the base of the firing pin cup, and it didn't go off.

WWB is great for practice and plinking, but it wouldn't be my choice for carry ammo.

rritter
December 30, 2005, 02:00 PM
As so many have already said, Murphy is everywhere. One way to help solve this problem is to load the magazines with alternating rounds from different manufacturers, each from a box that's been tested in the carry weapon. Buy two boxes, one Hydra-Shok, one some other brand of hollowpoint. Test-fire half of each box to make sure the batch is good, then load alternately from each box into the magazines. That will at least reduce the chance of having an entire magazine full of dud ammunition.

Also brings up a good point - do you test-fire at least one magazine from each box of ammunition before putting it into your carry piece, or do you just load up, knowing it's from a high-quality manufacturer? I'm gonna start test-firing.

Old NFO
December 30, 2005, 02:08 PM
After 22 years military flying, I always figure Murphy was an optomist...:D
I was told "years" ago to make sure my backup ammo came from a different box. While I've never had "this" situation occur, I can believe it very easily due to the lack of good QC my multiple companies these days... I bought a box of .45 ACP a couple of weeks ago, first two rounds didn't even cycle the slide properly... Went back to the counter, they called the lot# in, and found out that it was supposed to have been marked low power for ICORE:what:

Working Man
December 30, 2005, 02:12 PM
Great post Steve.

I think a good point (for me at least) is to have more than one mfg of ammo
with me for my CCW (ex: in extra clip) incase I get a bad batch. I never
really thought about a whole box being bad, shame on me.

Worse case scenario I'm still armed to the teeth with arms and teeth.

sm
December 30, 2005, 02:39 PM
Dang Women! :D

Okay she is getting the J-frame Today. She meets me, and said <head tilt, bats eyes, "that grin"> and of course her kid " Hi Uncle Steve, <hugs>..."I'm in a hurry and I want your 124grainers. I looked at one place today and they didn't have any. I'll pay you back and in the meantime - here- use these NATO rounds...bye!

<loads mags in parking lot, shaking head 'whut just happened?'> I'm a guy, I am supposed to be stupid, I guess I did right- huh? :D

Great Point about NOT loading mags from same LOT. I do NOT believe in "cocktail loads" - meaning staggering JHPs and FMJ or whatever combo.

Now my Keltec P-11, like most folks at the range and piddlin' - has loaded up mixed loads just to shoot or, to use for Malf drills. Only problem I have is my P-11 has been totally reliable with ammo that works. I have to use dummy shells or in the earlier example, have bad ammo.

In my T&E on this gun, which I really wanted to NOT like, but kept since I could not break it, as I was asked to try and do...
Stock gun mind you except for magazine finger extensions...

Mixed up loads in mags from 95 gr to 147 gr. Some loads were "run the case in a box of powder and stick a bullet in it". Some were lead loads, including the ones sawn off to replicate a Wadcutter. [don't ask, I was testing and evaluating].

Yeah darn gun even ran 9mm lead "wadcutters"..kinda funky, key-holed , but it ran 'em. Oddest thing was the 9mm wax loads and rubber bullets with powder. Hey it is a Keltec...again I was T&E-ings. Did I mention the wood bullets? Talk about wind drift...

Okay...now I get to find me some CCW loads. I'll be the guy with NATO and Blazers in a CCW if you need me. I am so low on Premium loads myself.

Don't any of you ladies call me either when I get back...unless you make some homemade fried apple pies...I can be bribed. :p

Bob F.
December 30, 2005, 05:51 PM
Wasn't disclosed in my earlier post(#3), maybe somebody picked up on it though; I haven't been practicing nearly enough either, and I know from previous experience that it reflects in my shooting. Only 1 indoor range and it's 30miles away, never been there. Road to the gun club (outdoor ranges out the whazoo) is iced up enough to be impassable. Maybe hit the indoor range next week. Might put .22 cal range in basement.

Stay safe.
Bob

sm
December 30, 2005, 06:23 PM
Perhaps this should have been original Post Title, Then again Oleg ,Staff, and Mods are still waiting for day they can mark the calendar when I did not "drift" off topic.

All Safety Rules and Practices Pertain to the following:

Bob- I am a firm believer in Dry Fire Practice at home. As many also know I am a big proponent of mounting Shotguns at home. The more one "handles" a firearm, the more that firearm becomes an extension of them. Applicable to any and all defensive tools. Knives, canes, walking sticks, coffee mugs...

So one should Check Their Carry Stuff. .

One big reason I often suggest a new shooter get a Revolver is the ability to Dry fire, even putting a dime on the front sight/ or barrel and NOT having that dime fall off in firing a cylinder a full rotation.

Repetition becomes habit - habit becomes faith.

Many folks simply do not have a range handy, in winter months outdoors can be harsh . ranges closed. Add some ranges do not allow practice from holster and other drills. I for instance - like many others - have been home recovering from Surgery...I can dryfire to keep muscle memory honed.

Not that one cannot dryfire a Semi. MY Keltec P-11 for instance allows me keep pulling the trigger on a dummy round. Being hammer - not striker fired, the P-11 is akin to a Polymer Revolver <lightening bolts and harsh word here>

With 1911 style guns, sure I have to rack and all, this allows me various drills. I can practice draw from holster, weak hand drills, ,malf drills, mag changes, all sorts of drills...including dryfire.

I am still convinced doing all this at home, office will make one a better trained shooter than someone that does not- or one hiding behind the Excuse Booth.

If can, and have a place to do so, Speer Rubber bullets or wax bullets Primer fired only, also gives great indoor practice. Maybe a Warehouse, a Barn...whatever. Just watch the ventilation is all.

This is what S&T forum is about, sharing experiences, ideas. I mean even folks away from guns, or living in areas that do not allow guns...inexpensive dart guns with suction cups are silent, and offer great practice in one's apt, or wherever.

Ranges are great, still practice wherever you are is feasible and recommended.

Steve

Bob F.
December 30, 2005, 07:01 PM
The wax bullets are a hoot out of a wheelgun, haven't tried the rubber ones though they should be even better! I used an old alum ice cube tray and poured melted parrafin in to about 3/8-1/2 inch, allow to set and push sized, primed cases into wax and twist. I think a little beeswax added would be better.

I practice drawing alot at home when I'm alone. Since I often carry with an untucked button shirt covering, I usuall have some tail, ah..shirt-tail between my hand and the grip. Draw anyway, get used to less-than-perfect conditions!

I've gotta go search for that post re: you "beating-up" a shotgun! It was super!

Bob

FedGunner
December 31, 2005, 01:49 AM
Any brand can have a bad run, but I believe WWB has automated QC, I don't think a real live inspector vets a sample of each run like premium ammo.

Premium Winchester is excellent stuff.

If there is no "real live inspection" Run the ???? away!!!!!

I have seen EVERY automated system fail. It was not discovered until an inspector tested a sample. (At Federal there are three different inspectors for every loader,every shift)

I'm guessing you are mistaken about inspectors at Olin's ammo plant.

MachIVshooter
January 1, 2006, 06:03 PM
As others have said, it can happen with any manufacturer. I had the same experience with .45 230 grain Federal Hydrashoks. Shooting up some that had been cycled a bunch of times, I had 3 rounds that failed to fire. Ran them through 4 different guns- duds. Yeah, I carry a j-frame too...

This is why I handload my carry ammo. I have had plenty of factory rounds fail to ignite (especially WWB 9mm 115 FMJ), but my handloads always go bang. By using premium components and very attentive loading practices, I can all but gaurantee my weapon wil fire.

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