Shooting angers immigrant community in Columbus


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eagle45
December 30, 2005, 08:33 AM
From the Dayton Daily News:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/1230ohshooting.html

Fatal shooting of Somali immigrant angers community
By the Associated Press
COLUMBUS | A sheriff's deputy shot and killed a knife-weilding African immigrant who lunged at officers who had come to take him to a psychiatric center, authorities said.

An angry crowd gathered in the northeast Columbus neighborhood Wednesday after the shooting of Nair Abdi, 23, an immigrant from Somalia whose family said he had stopped taking his medication and had become delusional. Four Franklin County deputies had been sent to his home under a court order.
Abdi was smoking on the sidewalk as the officers, two in plain clothes and two in uniform, approached. He immediately took out a knife, prompting uniformed deputy Mike Wiley to spray him with Mace, which didn't stop Abdi, said Lt. Brent Mull, a Columbus police spokesman.
"Mr. Abdi then made violent slashes at the deputies," and deputy Jason Evans, also in uniform, shot him, according to a police news release.
Abdi died of a gunshot wound to the torso, Franklin County Coroner Brad Lewis said Thursday.
Police called to the scene were confronted by members of the crowd screaming, "cold-blooded killers!" More officers had to be summoned to help break up the crowd.
"They could have wounded him," said Liban Abdi, the victim's brother. "They could have shot him in the leg, in the arm, anything else."
The four deputies were placed on leave pending an investigation, standard procedure for a police shooting. Mull said it appeared they took the right steps in trying to get Abdi to surrender before using force.
The police department, which is investigating the shooting, deferred questions on what other nonlethal weapons deputies carry to the sheriff's office. Officials there did not respond to a message seeking comment Thursday.
Evans is a seven-year veteran, while Wiley has eight years of service.
An order for Abdi to be taken to a psychiatric center had been issued Wednesday after a health care worker said he was "a danger to himself or others," said William Reddington, chief magistrate of Franklin County Probate Court.
Abdi started showing signs of mental illness after his family emigrated to the United States in 1999, his brother said.
"He would say the television was made by the devil, cars were made by the devil," Liban Abdi said.
Nair Abdi spent six months in the hospital earlier this year but had stopped taking medication after complaining that it made him feel weak and sleepy, his brother said.
More than 1,500 Ohio officers have taken a training course on dealing with mentally ill people that teaches officers the best methods for calming down an agitated person. The program was developed five years ago and has been copied by law enforcement agencies around the country.
Ohio also has 27 courts that exclusively handle cases involving the mentally ill, the most in the nation.

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wheelgunslinger
December 30, 2005, 08:47 AM
You know, cops really have a tough job. Shooting this guy would've been my first choice once the knife started flipping around and I saw he was 10 pounds of crazy in a 5 pound Somali.
Of course the community is outraged. A killing is a serious thing, but at some point officers have to protect themselves too.

Janitor
December 30, 2005, 08:50 AM
Absolutely impossible to say how it went down from the lack of detail in the story. The guy was 'slashing' at the officers though - sounds like a defensive shoot.

"They could have wounded him," said Liban Abdi, the victim's brother. "They could have shot him in the leg, in the arm, anything else."
I'm sorry the man lost his brother - very tragic. But where do all of the non-gunnies* out there get the idea that it's ok to use deadly force to simply 'hurt' somebody? Why on earth do they think that a deadly attack stops because you wound a person?

-

* Actully - I've no proof that was a quote from a 'non gunner'. He may really like them and simply know very little about them and their use.
-

kage genin
December 30, 2005, 09:15 AM
* Actully - I've no proof that was a quote from a 'non gunner'. He may really like them and simply know very little about them and their use.
-
Too true.. in fact a few High Roaders make the same argument in this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=173215]) about New Orleans police shooting a man with a knife.

Mongo the Mutterer
December 30, 2005, 10:02 AM
Absolutely impossible to say how it went down from the lack of detail in the story. The guy was 'slashing' at the officers though - sounds like a defensive shoot.

I'm sorry the man lost his brother - very tragic. But where do all of the non-gunnies* out there get the idea that it's ok to use deadly force to simply 'hurt' somebody? Why on earth do they think that a deadly attack stops because you wound a person?
- yep
"They could have wounded him," said Liban Abdi, the victim's brother. "They could have shot him in the leg, in the arm, anything else."Yep and they could have hit him in the femoral artery and he could have bled out.

Newsflash to Liban, your bro threatened a cop. The cop responded. You don't like it go back to the armpit you came from...

Skeptic
December 30, 2005, 10:11 AM
Too bad the guy got killed, but he had a terminal case of the stupids... you just dont go after cops with a knife.

Even though he was mentally disturbed, he still posed a serious threat to the cops. IMHO, the cops were justified in killing him.

grnzbra
December 30, 2005, 10:24 AM
"They could have wounded him," said Liban Abdi, the victim's brother. "They could have shot him in the leg, in the arm, anything else."


Where do people get this K-Wrap?

CAS700850
December 30, 2005, 12:02 PM
Ah, gotta love it when the crap happens in your own backyard, or more accurately, close enough to home to make me pay attention. First, the deputies were going after a man who had a history of violent behavior, including prior knife use in a crime and attempting to steal a Highway Patrol cruiser while the trooper was writing a citation. Second, the man has been committed to a mental health hospital five times in the last five years. This was going to be #6. Third, the Somali community in the Columbus area is a large group. Surprisingly large. And, like many large groups, it has its share of bad guys who may try to capitalize on this situation. More importantly, let's hope the politicians don't try to sacrifice the deputy for "the good of the community." Then again, from what I've seen of Ron O'Brian and his staff of prosecutors in Franklin County, they play it pretty straight. After all, they did assist in prosecuting the Governor. :D

ball3006
December 30, 2005, 12:05 PM
about this guy, they would have made him take his meds.........Too many loony farms let people out of the padded rooms by giving them meds........and this results.........as said above, if they are unhappy here in the USA, they can always go back to where they came from. I wonder if they are legal or not.........chris3

DontBurnMyFlag
December 30, 2005, 12:58 PM
didnt we try to save their country a while back? ingrates:banghead:

longeyes
December 30, 2005, 01:02 PM
Cultural assimilation training should include how to behave with the police.

Oh, wait, they don't get cultural assimilation training...?

dpesec
December 30, 2005, 02:12 PM
CAS 100% correct. I do exepct some political fall out. I don't know if this happened in Columbus, Franklin or Delware county.
The political fallout will be greater in Columbus, and the least in Delware.
I can't see Mr. Coleman leaving this alone. Great way to get headlines.:cuss:

Atticus
December 30, 2005, 02:16 PM
More than 1,500 Ohio officers have taken a training course on dealing with mentally ill people that teaches officers the best methods for calming down an agitated person. The program was developed five years ago and has been copied by law enforcement agencies around the country.
Ohio also has 27 courts that exclusively handle cases involving the mentally ill, the most in the nation.

I wonder if the officers sent after this guy had received that training.

Apparently, they did not have tasers with them because they had not received taser training. I feel bad for the officers, they had to do what they had to do with the equipment and training available. But considering the situation, I think their SOP for planned pick-ups of mentally unbalanced people might need some tweaking.

longrifleman
December 30, 2005, 03:13 PM
I think their SOP for planned pick-ups of mentally unbalanced people might need some tweaking.

This is the first thought I had. I don't see any problem with the defensive part of the shoot, but the planning is questionable.

I have no intention to cop-bash, but have a question on possible tactics. They knew he was crazy and possibly dangerous, so what would be wrong with having one officer armed with a shotgun loaded with beanbags or some such backing up the others. That keeps stand-off capability and reduces the chance of killing the crazy, as well as innocent bystanders. I know even those can kill, but they also give some political cover to the officers.

bg
December 30, 2005, 04:10 PM
Am I reading this wrong or did the cops come after him because he
was "smoking on the sidewalk" ? If so, this means anyone enjoying a
smoke outside can be hassled ? Or am I missing something here..:confused:

Opps sorry. I missed the part about the med guy claiming he was a danger.

Coronach
December 30, 2005, 05:11 PM
Very raapidly, for I am away from home on Vacation (yay!)...

1. It was in Columbus proper. The Deputies were, seemingly, serving some manner of court order in the City (perfectly normal) when this happened.

2. ASSUMING that everything went down as reported in the media (always a crap shoot), it sounds like a good shoot. As always, far too early to tell.

3. The "mentally-ill" training CPD and other agencies have received focuses on de-escalation and such, but when the knives come out it is still "shoot until the threat stops", assuming it was a valid threat.

4. Taser is a non-option in this scenario, unless it is a stand-off (read: he is just standing there with the knife, no one is close enough to end up on the short end of a Tueller drill, etc). Even then, there should be someone present with a deadly-force option should things change. make no mistake, a guy charging you with a knife is a shoot-to-slidelock event.

5. Coleman might very well leave this alone, since he curently has a lot on his plate politically *cough*drunkdrivingwife*cough*, he has a son who just joined the force, and (again, assuming it happened the way they said) it has all the hallmarks of being a good shoot.

We'll see.

Mike

Sheldon J
December 30, 2005, 09:31 PM
to their home land. Just how much compashion do you think their locals would have had, very likely they would have machine guned him down, then took the remainder of the family to a prison just for having him around. Or they would have taken him in for torture along with his whole family. My point is they have no gripe the PD did it by the numbers, he is the moron that went after them with a deadly weapon.:cuss:

gunsmith
December 30, 2005, 09:54 PM
If I ever have to shoot some one & some idiot says that to me I will say, "I was aiming at his leg but his chest & head got in the way"

No_Brakes23
December 31, 2005, 02:58 AM
Too bad the guy got killed, but he had a terminal case of the stupids... you just dont go after cops with a knife.

Even though he was mentally disturbed, he still posed a serious threat to the cops. IMHO, the cops were justified in killing him. +1 Ya know, I am more than happy to jump in on the cop-bashing when it appears to be a bad shoot, but the video they showed of this guy had him well within the 21-foot range. A sad deal for everyone, but while watching the video, I had to believe I would have shot, were I in the position the officers were in.

edit: tasers may have been of some help here, but who can say if they could have safely used one?

CAnnoneer
December 31, 2005, 01:01 PM
What is amazing is the lack of common sense among the "protesters". They certainly do not consider what they would have done in the cops' shoes.

Ultimately, this occurrence is another example of the all-too-common domestic emaciates whining about life being hard.

Waitone
December 31, 2005, 07:42 PM
What is amazing is the lack of common sense among the "protesters". People who spend their lives in thugocracies don't generally sprout their protest wings without substantial assurance and assistance from "community activists."

longeyes
December 31, 2005, 08:24 PM
This is yet another manifestation of the social chaos the Left is causing through its force-feeding of multiculturalism into American society.

stevelyn
December 31, 2005, 08:36 PM
Where do people get this K-Wrap?

Most folks gun (lack of) knowledge comes from what they see on tv and the movies.:banghead:

Master Blaster
December 31, 2005, 09:16 PM
If a crazy perosn stabs you with a knife will you be any less dead than if a sane person did it?

Should the police risk a life threatening injury?

Should the police risk hitting an innocent bystander with a leg shot that misses the target?

What would you do think quick cause you only have a few seconds or less to decide all these issues.

Fortunately the police can fall back on their training and experience and do the right thing in a situation like this. Can you???

RioShooter
December 31, 2005, 10:08 PM
Where do people get this K-Wrap?

Watching too much TV. Remember how the Lone Ranger, Gene Autry, and Roy Rogers could all shoot a gun out of the BG's hand.

Some people still believe it.

grimjaw
December 31, 2005, 10:56 PM
stopped taking medication after complaining that it made him feel weak and sleepy

Hrm, let me see here. Weak and sleepy or knife-wielding maniac? Weak and sleep or knife-wielding maniac? Gosh, it's so hard for me to make up my mind. Oh heck, I'm his brother, why should I bother to make him take his meds? I like knife-wielding maniacs!

Sounds like a case of misplaced blame, to me.

jmm

gunfan
December 31, 2005, 11:05 PM
Shooting angers immigrant community in Columbus

I say, "Tough cookies!" Had he been a Caucasian, not a peep would have been uttered! Sorry to say this, but, I, for one, am glad he is dead. That means that there is one less madman to deal with on the streets.

Scott

Art's Grammaw wuz here.

exoduster18
December 31, 2005, 11:28 PM
All in all, it sounds like a good shoot to me.

Prior history of loony-ness and previous record, the deputies knew he would be, well, off of his rocker. And they came prepared. 4 guys to take him in, and mace didn't stop him. He still proceeded to attack with a knife. And now the community is outraged that the deputies protected them as well as themselves.

I agree with the "ingrates" comment made by a previous poster.

Good shoot.

Also, if you don't stop after being sprayed with mace, I would of stopped, no matter what my state of mind. Even regular pepper spray is nasty.

jcims
January 1, 2006, 12:18 AM
For what it's worth (FWIW for you younger folks), i read in the Columbus Dispatch today that the officers did not have tasers because they had not been issued, and the officers had no training with them.

allmons
January 1, 2006, 12:48 AM
...and I am sick of having to constantly deal with psych patients and their "fragile" families. Nurses and Doctors are assaulted every day by unbalanced individuals, often because the family can't be bothered to keep the subject on his/her medication.

We aren't allowed to fight back or carry weapons on the job, but I have removed so many weapons from these "patients" that I could start an armory if the police didn't take them for evidence.

Community safety outweighs an individual's safety if that individual means to harm others. I an sorry that the officers have to live with killing a man, but they did nothing wrong.

Any of you tough guys want to come to my ER and "defuse" these situations can start work tomorrow. But - no weapons, no martial arts, and we are no longer allowed to use restraints; they're demeaning and dehumanizing, you see.

Ever wonder why nurses and Docs are leaving the profession at a faster rate than new rookies can be trained and hired? Safety is the most cited reason, ahead of poor pay ( which is a biggie!).

:banghead:

Vic
January 1, 2006, 01:20 AM
No one can tell me those cops did not use excessive force...they did. Four HUGE officers could not subdue and restrain??? Between PR24's 3/4 cell mag lights and four cops...I don't see a problem in dropping this guy for the "cuff and stuff", and I don't care how crazy he was. Remember the crazy that stole the tank and the cop got the access open where the suspect was? The tank was stuck, he was surrounded and not going anyplace. The cop shoved his .40 into the hole and smoked the guy instead of getting backup to drag the fool out of the tank. Seems to me cops are just too quick to resort to deadly force. My training was to use deadly force only when my life or someone else's life was in immediate danger. Had that guy been holding a firearm, yes, smoke him. I know I'm opening a flame war here but facts are facts. The officers should recieve at least a written repremand for their lack of good judgement.:fire:

exoduster18
January 1, 2006, 01:49 AM
Lack of good judgement? Put yourself in the officer's shoes. And even if there was 4 of them, it doesn't necessarily mean that they all reacted quickly enough to take him down. And if he had a knife, and them with their Maglites and what not, one of the officers would of gotten stabbed. The bullet put a stop to that. It gave the other officers time to get back and get out of the way.

The_Antibubba
January 1, 2006, 03:03 AM
Vic,

They sprayed him with mace (more likely pepper spray or a combination), and it didn't stop him. When someone is mentally deranged or on drugs, they're adrenals are working like a geyser. They can resist debilitating chemicals or even seem immune to tasers or batons. And four strong men might not be enough to subdue someone like that (or fast enough, since reflexes are amped too). And he had a knife, and was swinging it. Maybe if they had not sprayed first but simply shot, there might be an argument for unnecessary force, but given the details presented in the article it is hard to find fault in their actions. Even a police officer is allowed to defend himself.

BTW, if you're interested in a similar situation, do some detailed research into the Rodney King beating. Most of the edited tapes don't show Mr. King throwing several large policemen around like dolls. Most of the articles don't mention that Rodney was high on crystal meth at the time-one of those adrenaline-stimulating illegal drugs.

And Vic-welcome to The High Road.

Byron Quick
January 1, 2006, 04:15 AM
I, too, work in an ER. Also worked in psychiatric settings for five years-three as a nurse.

Non-compliance with medications is a huge problem. Give you guys a clue: making your non-compliant mentally ill family member take their medication is a good way to become possessed by the devil in their delusional world view. Then they must cut the devil out of you.

It's a good sound bite but this suggestion is just as out of touch with reality as 'shoot him in the leg' is.

Where I work, we're still allowed the use of restraints. If this is ever barred, I will simply refuse to deal with mentally ill patients...the pukes in administration who came up with the policy can handle the matter. I'd rather use chemical restraint than physical restraint anyway. Vitamin H is your friend.

Kodiaz
January 1, 2006, 09:04 AM
Am I the only one that read this and thought have we lost our minds letting Somali's into this country. Lets bring in the Liberians too so when they start rioting over whatever reason the cops will be dealing with a bunch of battle hardened African civil war vets. Instead of the usual clowns. Rant off

Vic
January 1, 2006, 10:50 AM
With the media, I guess I just didn't get the whole story. If they exausted ALL other options, I guess the shooting would be justified under self preservation ( but be it noted...if someone broke into your home while you were there and they had a knife and you shot them with your home protection weapon, be ready for a long haul through the court system and a very possible conviction depending where you live in this country). It is not a two way street in this country.:eek: There are professional caliber police officers out there, and I appreciate them. But there are a LOT of just plain JERKS wearing a badge too. When I was a watch commander at a Military installation, part of my job was to make sure my officers performed their duties in a professional manner and evaluate/award/or dicipline them accordingly. The watch commander I worked for as his assitant watch commander, he was a jerk that came from a Florida Sheriff's Dept, and I ended up getting his position because of him being a JERK.:cool:

308win
January 1, 2006, 12:59 PM
Instead of bashing, second guessing, and casting dispersion on the training of the deputies let's put the culpability where it belongs - on the family of the shootee for not taking action to make sure he was taking the medication he needed to function somewhat normal in his everyday actions.

eagle45
January 1, 2006, 06:45 PM
I have to agree with those that believe this was a good shoot, based on the information given. Listed below is a follow up article from Saturday's Dayton Daily News in regard to protests about the shooting. I wonder who the Somali community would be blaming had this man killed one of them. Sad situation all around.

From the Dayton Daily:
Somalis protest fatal shooting
Columbus police say immigrant lunged with knife
By Laura A. Bischoff
Dayton Daily News
COLUMBUS | More than 200 Somalis protested Friday against police brutality and demanded justice in the shooting death of a 23-year-old Somali immigrant.
Protesters carried homemade signs and American and Somali flags as they marched around Columbus City Hall and shouted: "What do we want? Justice! When do we want it? Right now!"
Franklin County sheriff's deputies shot and killed Nasir Abdi on Wednesday outside the Cassady Village Apartments in northeast Columbus. Four officers had been sent to pick up Abdi and take him to a mental health center under court order.
"Instead, Nasir Abdi was brutally shot and killed by the deputies. Instead of receiving treatment for his illness today in a medical facility, Nasir Abdi is dead. This is not right. City and county leaders must not ignore this situation," said Liibaan Ismail, a spokesman for the Somali protesters. He added: "This young man was killed when he was supposed to be protected by the authorities."
Police and Somali accounts of what happened are wildly different.
Columbus police investigating the shooting death have said Abdi pulled out a kitchen knife with a six-inch blade as officers approached him. Officer Mike Wiley sprayed Abdi with Mace, which didn't stop him. When Abdi made violent slashes at officers, deputy Jason Evans shot him in the torso.
But Ismail said, "There were a number of witnesses who were present when the shooting took place. A lot of those witnesses confirmed that Mr. Nasir Abdi did not have a knife. It contradicts what the police have said. What we need is the facts to come out and we want justice served."
Adam O'Hirsi, Abdi's cousin, said, "What is so appalling here is the belief within the Somali community that he would not be dead if he had a different color or lived in a different neighborhood."
Ashkir Ali, another Abdi cousin, called the shooting death "a modern-day lynching."
Police could have restrained Abdi instead of shooting him, Ali said.
Abdullahi Hussen said Somalis' trust of law enforcement will dwindle if such things continue to happen or the Abdi shooting isn't properly investigated.
Ismail doubted that a thorough investigation would happen.
"The police have already made their conclusion that this gentleman had a knife," Ismail said.
Roughly 35,000 Somali and Somali-Americans live in Columbus. They began immigrating 25 years ago but in the past decade larger numbers moved to the city, particularly after hearing by word of mouth about affordable housing and jobs, said Hassan Omar, executive director of the Somali Community Association of Ohio.
Somalia, in eastern Africa on the Indian Ocean, is a country about the size of Texas. Since 1991, the country of 8 million has been in the throes of civil war and political turmoil.
This story contains information from The Associated Press.

greyhound
January 1, 2006, 07:59 PM
shouted: "What do we want? Justice! When do we want it? Right now!"


Not to be too un-PC, but that sounds like the shouting at every "progressive" protest I've ever seen.

Could these Somali immigrants be getting coaching?

G1FAL
January 1, 2006, 08:07 PM
Looks like they learned the First Looney Lefty Lesson on Being an American quite well....when something happens that you dont like, scream, cry, stamp your feet, and whine about racism.

They are more than welcome to go back to Somalia anytime they decide they dont like things here. They never should have been brought here in the first place.

Man, I love "diversity". :rolleyes:

longeyes
January 1, 2006, 11:20 PM
Adam O'Hirsi, Abdi's cousin, said, "What is so appalling here is the belief within the Somali community that he would not be dead if he had a different color or lived in a different neighborhood."
Ashkir Ali, another Abdi cousin, called the shooting death "a modern-day lynching."
Police could have restrained Abdi instead of shooting him, Ali said.
Abdullahi Hussen said Somalis' trust of law enforcement will dwindle if such things continue to happen or the Abdi shooting isn't properly investigated.

Sounds as if America is failing the Somalis. Time to go back home, to a better place. And the sooner the better.

rero360
January 2, 2006, 01:11 AM
they called him a gentleman, a gentleman, um, no I'm sorry but he was no gentleman, he was a stark raving nutjob, good shoot

kahr40
January 2, 2006, 01:16 AM
At least where I'm from Police are trained that when deadly force is needed shoot to "stop". That means a double tap to the chest. If he still coming at you give him two more. You don't shoot to wound. you don't do any of that cowboy cr@p. An officer or officers trying to take down a man with a knife means one of the officers is going to get cut and possibly seriously injured. Having said that maybe they could have planned ahead a little better. Maybe stood back and waited for someone with alternatives, ie taser, when he started acting out, but I wasn't there and I won't judge them.

secamp32
January 3, 2006, 12:05 AM
I don't know where you were trained, but here we do not use a PR-24 against a knife. PR-24 is only used against unarmed perps. If you want to go wrestling knife wielding psychos be my guest but thats not in my contract.

XLMiguel
January 3, 2006, 01:32 PM
Well, the obvious question is, "Where's the knife?"

All in all, IF the media account is at all credible, it sounds like a good shoot, and if anyone is covering up, it is the Somali community trying to protect one of their own.

Big +1 on the "Looks like they learned the First Looney Lefty Lesson on Being an American quite well....when something happens that you dont like, scream, cry, stamp your feet, and whine about racism. " The Somali's I've observed locally aren't exactly paragons of virtue.

fourays2
January 3, 2006, 02:30 PM
I have to agree with those that believe this was a good shoot, based on the information given. Listed below is a follow up article from Saturday's Dayton Daily News in regard to protests about the shooting. I wonder who the Somali community would be blaming had this man killed one of them. Sad situation all around.

From the Dayton Daily:
Somalis protest fatal shooting
Columbus police say immigrant lunged with knife
By Laura A. Bischoff
Dayton Daily News
COLUMBUS | More than 200 Somalis protested Friday against police brutality and demanded justice in the shooting death of a 23-year-old Somali immigrant.


must have looked like a scene from BHD.

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