Homeowner Shoots Suspect in Home Invasion


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Desertdog
December 30, 2005, 01:31 PM
And they say "Call 911, and let the cops handle it." This is a much more effective way.

Homeowner Shoots Suspect in Home Invasion
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=49393

By Grayson Kamm
First Coast News

MACCLENNY, FL -- Police say a suspect was shot early Thursday morning by a man who was protecting his home and his pregnant wife.

Police are calling it a home invasion robbery.

A 17-year-old boy is in police custody, while his brother is in the hospital in critical condition.

Friends locked up the gate Thursday afternoon to the Macclenny home that will never feel the same for Jody Paul Thrift and his pregnant wife Sabrina.

Baker County Sheriff Joey Dobson says early Thursday morning, Jody Paul got up to get some water, and noticed his lights were out. But the power was still on at the house next door.

"So he knew that something was up," Sheriff Dobson said.

Dobson says Richard Munoz and his 17-year-old brother had cut the power and phone lines to the house.

Dobson says the pair then took a boat anchor from a shed and hurled it through a glass door.

"So [the victim] went to his bedroom, retrieved his firearm, [and] waited in his bedroom," Dobson said.

"And as [the suspect] opened the door, [Thrift] saw a flashlight, a little, small flashlight, and he began to fire. And he shot at the suspect, and the suspect fell right in his bedroom door," Dobson said.

As three Baker County deputies sped to the scene, they say they came across the younger suspect, scrambling through the woods toward the getaway car.

Deputies put him under arrest.

Sheriff Dobson says the older suspect, Richard Munoz, was carrying a cocked and loaded pistol with him the whole time.

In fact, when deputies found Munoz on the floor of the house, they say he was still trying to reach for his gun.

There's no word yet on why the Thrift family may have been a target.

Police are investigating whether the suspect ever fired his gun inside the home. He is in critical condition at Shands Jacksonville.

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insidious_calm
December 30, 2005, 02:16 PM
To bad he didn't kill him........

Cut my power AND my phone and come after me and my pregnant wife ?:fire: :fire: :fire:

Nothing acceptable here left to say.


I.C.

kage genin
December 30, 2005, 02:56 PM
They cut the power and phone lines (knew folks were home and could call for help) and entered the home with a gun ready to shoot. The crooks obviously expected using the gun to kill people inside. Glad they got something they obviously DIDN'T expect.

There's hope yet, report says the wounded crook's in critical condition... if we're lucky he won't make it. I say this unapologetically. This cretin deserves to die.

Good job by Mr. Thrift. Kudos to the deputies who arrived quickly enough to catch the fleeing one.

robert garner
December 30, 2005, 02:57 PM
just shoot him in the leg or sumpthin?
still goin for his gun?
sounds as if he didnt shoot enuff?

pax
December 30, 2005, 03:03 PM
In fact, when deputies found Munoz on the floor of the house, they say he was still trying to reach for his gun.
Note to self: Just because a BG goes down, doesn't mean he's out.

**

Excellent work by the homeowner. I hope someone sends him a medal, and his wife some flowers.

pax

Standing Wolf
December 30, 2005, 07:33 PM
Another "juvenile harmed by gun violence" for the leftist extremists' statistics.

thumper723
December 30, 2005, 07:54 PM
:what:

That is only 20 miles from MY house!

For those of you outside the Jacksonville area, Macclenny is a small rural town about ~30 miles west of town off of I-10. Think Mayberry RFD.

Small working class town with some light industry. Unfortunately, meth is being a bigger and bigger problem out here lately.

That is why I keep a Condition 3 1911 in the nightstand. Or on me.

TallPine
December 30, 2005, 07:59 PM
Police say a suspect was shot early Thursday morning
Isn't nice for once that they are not calling the creep a "victim" :)

And geeze ... this is the kind of thing to make you want to have a gun with you when you get up in the night for any reason ... :uhoh:

Hawkmoon
December 30, 2005, 08:38 PM
:what:

That is only 20 miles from MY house!

For those of you outside the Jacksonville area, Macclenny is a small rural town about ~30 miles west of town off of I-10. Think Mayberry RFD.

Small working class town with some light industry. Unfortunately, meth is being a bigger and bigger problem out here lately.

That is why I keep a Condition 3 1911 in the nightstand. Or on me.
Better ratchet that up to Condition 1

Shootcraps
December 30, 2005, 08:43 PM
Aren't you jumping to conclusions? Maybe the poor fellows were just weary travelers who were lost. They came into the house looking for a utility bill or something to verify the address. :confused:



















:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

JohnKSa
December 31, 2005, 01:08 AM
Home invasion SUSPECT?

I guess the homeowner could have cut his own power & phone lines, then thrown the anchor through the door from the outside while he was inside his house. Then forced the two SUSPECTS into the house and to his bedroom at gunpoint while he waited for them there. Then shot one of the SUSPECTS when they opened the door. :rolleyes:

Stand_Watie
December 31, 2005, 02:50 AM
"And as the suspect opened the door, Thrift saw a flashlight, a little, small flashlight, and he began to fire. And he shot at the suspect, and the suspect fell right in his bedroom door,"

Almost sounds like an Olde English rendering, they left out

..And yea verily with a mighty smiting of a musket was justice done that very night

DunedinDragon
December 31, 2005, 08:47 AM
And they say "Call 911, and let the cops handle it." This is a much more effective way.

Homeowner Shoots Suspect in Home Invasion
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/topstories/news-article.aspx?storyid=49393

Police are investigating whether the suspect ever fired his gun inside the home. He is in critical condition at Shands Jacksonville.

Why??? Under Florida's no retreat law this is a good shoot regardless of whether or not the intruder even HAD a gun. Breaking and entering is enough.

El Tejon
December 31, 2005, 08:54 AM
Duned, because it's the media and they never get anything right.:D

71Commander
December 31, 2005, 09:41 AM
Sure would like to know what gun the homeowner shot the BG with.:confused:

whm1974
December 31, 2005, 03:10 PM
Dobson says Richard Munoz and his 17-year-old brother had cut the power and phone lines to the house.

Dobson says the pair then took a boat anchor from a shed and hurled it through a glass door.

If somebody is going though this much trouble to break in my house then I have a reasonable assumion that they are planning to kill me.

-Bill

Brass Balls
December 31, 2005, 03:20 PM
Good for the homeowner and his wife. Hate to see honest folks suffer from senseless, ruthless crime. Those BGs sure weren't out collecting for the Red Cross.


Not that my home is a fortress, but there are a couple of things that would help me somewhat in this scenario. First our power box is locked, sure that could be defeated but it would be more difficult and perhaps make some noise.

Second if the power goes out the alarm in my home goes to battery backup and makes a buzzing noise inside the house at the touchpads, one of which is in my bedroom.

HI express
December 31, 2005, 04:55 PM
The sad thing is this is the general type of "gun violence" that the gun grabbers want to stop. Shame on them!

This young man did what he had to do to defend his family..no more no less. Shame on the gun grabbers who are trying to prevent citizens like this young man from defending him home.:cuss: :cuss:

taliv
December 31, 2005, 05:25 PM
what's surprising about this is that these two geniuses didn't electricute themselves cutting his power. this mean criminals have figured out how to use breaker boxes? or maybe they hadn't seen the approved hollywood methods

odysseus
December 31, 2005, 07:25 PM
This is an interesting case. It is obvious to anyone that they intended to go right up against the occupants in a home. Even to say that this was for just as a robbery intent seems to be an early assumption, seems like they might have intended to kill the occupants.

JohnKSa
December 31, 2005, 09:18 PM
It is obvious to anyone that they intended to go right up against the occupants in a home.You know, that's a VERY good point. The fact that they cut both power and phone lines and were also armed are all strong indicators that they were expecting someone to be home. Somehow that hadn't quite registered.

thumper723
December 31, 2005, 11:34 PM
Done some digging, and the homeowners are related to some of the towns more pubic citizens (school board, former sherrif, fire dept).

Still no sign of a motive. That being said, with the meth-heads here, they don't seem to need one.

Not saying the perps are meth heads, just all too common here.

drinks
January 1, 2006, 12:07 AM
Pubic citizens? Oh me.

thumper723
January 1, 2006, 01:56 AM
Sorry, public. Typo, mea culpa.

The_Antibubba
January 1, 2006, 02:15 AM
So they cut the phone and the power-homeowners can't call out and the darkness hides suspicious actions-so far, they've some tactical awareness. The next logical step would be to force a door or look for a weak point. But then they THREW A BOAT ANCHOR THROUGH A WINDOW????

????


Tweakers!

Lupinus
January 1, 2006, 01:33 PM
I could say some things here about what would have happened if it had been my home and pregnant wife and two guys went through that much trouble (or even less) to break into my home. It shows me they are pretty serious about this. All I wil lsay is good job.

Moondoggie
January 1, 2006, 02:05 PM
Cutting the power and phone lines and crashing through a glass door by armed intruders tells me these two weren't interested in taking prisoners and most likely intended to leave no witnesses alive to testify/identify them.

I hope a judge/jury gloms to this concept, too.

AF_INT1N0
January 1, 2006, 02:28 PM
I was just reading this to the future Mrs. AF and she mentioned possible gang initiation.

Kill a homeowner, get street cred??

Either way, good for the homeowner.

Had this been in NY the owner would've been arrested for an illegal gun. or infringing on the criminals rights.

darkenedangel159
January 10, 2006, 11:33 PM
this so called "creep" is my cousin.. ok noone really knows what really happened, it coulda been anything.. and i watch all these farensic files on tv.. and i no alot about stuff and alot about my cousin.. and he was trained in the airforce so he would have know how to get in that house if he really wanted to.. he was also trained how to fire a gun.. ok now u tell me this. ive seen this paul guys house.. its out in almost the middle of nowhere right.. hmm full of trees no street light to light it up.. hmm its 1 somthin am its dark and PLUS the power is gone.. ok and in all the reports it says he had a small flash light.. ok a small one. and u wouldnt even b able to see his face or anything ud just see the light ok.. and how the heck did this paul guy who is probably not trained with a gun very well.. shoot him 4-5 times and the places he was shot was once in each leg. in the stomach and in the side.. and one that went threw the back of the head.. and thats all the shots that were fired out of paul thrifts gun was that 4-5 shots. ok u tell me this how did that guy get all the shots in my cousin if it was pitch black? oh and they say the gun was cocked ok when u get shot u tense up so he woulda got a shot out.. and obviously since the paul guy got practically perfect shots in so this guy woulda had to been right in front of him.inless he was some kinda super hero that could shoot that good at an angle. so if he got shot he would tense up and pull the trigger shooting paul thrift.. ohh what did paul thrif use matrix moves in the dark to.. he must have since everything else makes so much sense. i hope the police look in to this very good cause i think somthing is fishy. well i hope this paul thrift guy is happy my cousin died. he had two little babys one thats not even 2 and one that is 5 i hope everyone is happy now that this crook is dead. yeah well how would u feel if one of ur family members got killed, and u didnt no the true reason y he did.. oohh and come to think of it.. isnt this also a lil fishy that this paul thrif guy is related to the police sheriff?!?! hmm i wonder. ohh and umm i hear cell phones dont work so great out there.. the power was out and the phones so since umm cellphones dont work so good how did the cops get there and how did they get there so fast. and u know it woulda been fast cause my other cousin would have been farther then the getaway car. oh and that statement that they say that my 17 year old cousin said.. isnt true.. ok if its a statement it has to be word for word. ive lived with him almost my entire life.. he has never called his brother richard. and richard isnt the type of guy that would just be like oh lets go rob a place,and dont u people think that its a little weird that he went to that house. why that house what was so special about that one. it didnt look so fancy. Oh and you know what The police said that this shed had thousands of dollars worth of stuff in it. soo if they were trying to go rob somthing why wouldnt they just take that stuff in there. and another thing thats a little weird. in the one news report. it says the "getaway car" was all the way out there by the gate and in the report it is quiet a walk and a run to get from the gate to the house. So if they were really there to rob the place dont u think they would bring the truck by the door so they could load the stuff in it and leave fast. but nope i guess there that stupid to have to steal somthing and have to walk it all the way back to the truck and then all the way back to the house. i think not noone even someone stupid would do that.

MarshallDodge
January 10, 2006, 11:45 PM
From the details I see here this was an excellent shoot. Set himself up near his bedroom and was at the ready.

Note to self, flashlight is an illuminated target....good thing to shoot at in the dark.....must use sparingly.

cavman
January 11, 2006, 12:03 AM
darkendangel

I am sorry for your loss of your cousin. It must be terrible. His service in the USAF is to be commended. I hope you and your family can cope with the difficulties that are still to come regarding your other 17 year old relation's problems with the law.

It looks bad for them however, as the report is written, regarding culpability and bad intentions. Many make mistakes in life. It appears that they may have lost their way and went down a path that led one to his death and another to judicial punishment.

If the facts bear out in court that they were indeed contemplating wrong doing and perhaps even evil, counsel your surviving cousin to follow a path that will lead him to become a good member of society.

beerslurpy
January 11, 2006, 12:04 AM
this so called "creep" is my cousin..

Troll. But if youre serious, I think they should saw down the entire family tree and send it through the chipper.

From his actions that night alone, the perp is halfway between a <bleep> and a monster, and my only regret is that the homeowner didnt tap him with a 12 gauge and get the younger accomplice as well. Splattering clever goblins like your cousin is one of the best justifications yet for the right to keep and bear arms. With no phone or power, there is no way he could have contacted police in time.

crazed_ss
January 11, 2006, 12:06 AM
this so called "creep" is my cousin.. ok noone really knows what really happened, it coulda been anything.. and i watch all these farensic files on tv.. and i no alot about stuff and alot about my cousin.. and he was trained in the airforce so he would have know how to get in that house if he really wanted to.. he was also trained how to fire a gun.. ok now u tell me this. ive seen this paul guys house.. its out in almost the middle of nowhere right.. hmm full of trees no street light to light it up.. hmm its 1 somthin am its dark and PLUS the power is gone.. ok and in all the reports it says he had a small flash light.. ok a small one. and u wouldnt even b able to see his face or anything ud just see the light ok.. and how the heck did this paul guy who is probably not trained with a gun very well.. shoot him 4-5 times and the places he was shot was once in each leg. in the stomach and in the side.. and one that went threw the back of the head.. and thats all the shots that were fired out of paul thrifts gun was that 4-5 shots. ok u tell me this how did that guy get all the shots in my cousin if it was pitch black? oh and they say the gun was cocked ok when u get shot u tense up so he woulda got a shot out.. and obviously since the paul guy got practically perfect shots in so this guy woulda had to been right in front of him.inless he was some kinda super hero that could shoot that good at an angle. so if he got shot he would tense up and pull the trigger shooting paul thrift.. ohh what did paul thrif use matrix moves in the dark to.. he must have since everything else makes so much sense. i hope the police look in to this very good cause i think somthing is fishy. well i hope this paul thrift guy is happy my cousin died. he had two little babys one thats not even 2 and one that is 5 i hope everyone is happy now that this crook is dead. yeah well how would u feel if one of ur family members got killed, and u didnt no the true reason y he did.. oohh and come to think of it.. isnt this also a lil fishy that this paul thrif guy is related to the police sheriff?!?! hmm i wonder. ohh and umm i hear cell phones dont work so great out there.. the power was out and the phones so since umm cellphones dont work so good how did the cops get there and how did they get there so fast. and u know it woulda been fast cause my other cousin would have been farther then the getaway car. oh and that statement that they say that my 17 year old cousin said.. isnt true.. ok if its a statement it has to be word for word. ive lived with him almost my entire life.. he has never called his brother richard. and richard isnt the type of guy that would just be like oh lets go rob a place,and dont u people think that its a little weird that he went to that house. why that house what was so special about that one. it didnt look so fancy. Oh and you know what The police said that this shed had thousands of dollars worth of stuff in it. soo if they were trying to go rob somthing why wouldnt they just take that stuff in there. and another thing thats a little weird. in the one news report. it says the "getaway car" was all the way out there by the gate and in the report it is quiet a walk and a run to get from the gate to the house. So if they were really there to rob the place dont u think they would bring the truck by the door so they could load the stuff in it and leave fast. but nope i guess there that stupid to have to steal somthing and have to walk it all the way back to the truck and then all the way back to the house. i think not noone even someone stupid would do that.


What if .. .what if .. what if.

How about not breaking into people's home if you dont want to get shot. Pretty simple to me.

Desertdog
January 11, 2006, 12:33 AM
So if they were really there to rob the place dont u think they would bring the truck by the door so they could load the stuff in it and leave fast.
IMHO they were out to do more than just rob the people in the house. Power and phone cut; no way to call for help nor able to light an area.
Truck by road; for silent approach to the house.
Long way to reach escape vehicle; no one to be left alive at scene.
Going to bedroom; at that time of night that is where the occupants should be and was.
Small flashlight; just enough light to find his way but not enough to light up a large area that is able to be seem under the door..
When the bedroom door opened the homeowner was ready and probably just shot at the center of the door, hitting the BG.
Good shoot.

JohnKSa
January 11, 2006, 12:35 AM
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how the heck did this paul guy who is probably not trained with a gun very well.. shoot him 4-5 times ... how did that guy get all the shots in my cousin if it was pitch black?Sounds like the homeowner got lucky.the places he was shot was once in each leg. in the stomach and in the side.. and one that went threw the back of the headSounds like your cousin got what he deserved.

I am truly sorry that the homeowner and his family were subjected to such an awful and traumatic experience.

They deserve your sympathy as well--your cousin and his accomplice had absolutely NO business being where they were, and what happened to them is legal in virtually any part of this country. For GOOD reason!

Kodiaz
January 11, 2006, 12:57 AM
This was a bad shoot both of them are still breathing and will now require us to pay taxes to lock them up. Too bad the guy didn't have 12 ga. semi 9 + 1

Kodiaz
January 11, 2006, 01:05 AM
To the individual who's cousin was shot.

The great governor of my state Jeb Bush. In his infinite wisdom has given the citizens of the state of FL our right to defend ourselves without some ridiculous duty to retreat. So any piece of filth that breaks and enters into a house could be dealt with in the proper manner. The minute those clowns entered someone ELSE's home they were in the wrong and in my opinion it is unfortunate that the homeowner was not able to bag both of the filthy crooks.


Thank you !JEB! Bush

Ridge
January 11, 2006, 06:18 AM
Darkangel (If that was your cousin) Your <> cousin got what he deserved,If it would've happened to a member of my family then I wouldn't say anything to the people that he/she broke in on.

I would still tell the home owner thanks for taking a criminal off the street and putting him six feet under.

The Homeowner wasn't the one that brok and then entered,he was with his family when your dip ???? cousins came calling.

I would've done the same thing only I would've made sure he was polished off on the spot.

AK-74me
January 11, 2006, 06:47 AM
1. it's a troll
2. gives me a headache
3. poor punctuation, spelling and obviously typed with no thought.
4. since when did everyone trained in the airforce get "ninja" training on how to break in a home undetected?
5. ???? what are you doing questioning the homeowners shooting skills? BTW if "your cousin" was coming through a doorway holding a flashlight it would be pretty easy to get rounds on target, aiming at a flashlight from a probably what a few yds. away? Good easy shoot
6. waste of my time because this is a troll

beerslurpy
January 11, 2006, 11:44 AM
Do you guys not know what a troll is?

SSN Vet
January 11, 2006, 12:21 PM
tell no tails

file no law suits

consume no tax payer dollars at the hospital

consume no tax payer dollars at the courts

don't come back in 5 years, hardened and experienced by their time.

Let's hope they charge the brother as an adult and keep him locked up for a while.

Note to self.....two to the chest, one to the head! cover and take aim on #2.

darkenedangel159
January 11, 2006, 12:44 PM
Well first of all you people have no right to talk about my education level you guys dont know anything about me.So why are you judging me. For all you know i could be a 50 year old.Just because i was typing fast, and really didn't give a <darn> about grammer, doesn't mean that I am stupid. I bet i can point out many of your guy's errors. Im not saying that my cousin didnt break into that guys house. Im just saying that this story seems a little bit weird to me. What i meant was I know my cousin got trained in how to get into a house if he needed to. Whos to know how he had the flashlight, he could have moved it far away from his body, no one knows that. I know all the details cause i talked to the police, and i saw what he looked like ok. Oh and to the person that said that it wouldn't make a diffrence if it was your family, come to me when it happens and tell me if your thoughts have changed. Im just saying this was a little weird of a story. I dont know, How did paul thrift get to his gun as fast as he did in the pitch black? How did he position himself in the perfect spot.i heard the wife was upstairs screaming, why whould my cousin even go up there if he heard that? I dont think he would, he would probably run out the door, knowing my cousin I know for a fact he would run out the door.

Igloodude
January 11, 2006, 01:49 PM
Oh and to the person that said that it wouldn't make a diffrence if it was your family, come to me when it happens and tell me if your thoughts have changed.

If a member of my family was shot while apparently an univited guest in the house of a stranger, I'd certainly be saddened, but I don't think I'd assume anything other than that the family member got what was coming to him.

And you could really use some of that special troll training that all Air Force people get, too.

wqbang
January 11, 2006, 02:27 PM
An article with far more information.

http://www.bcstandard.com/news/2006/0105/Front_Page/001.html

And the perpatrator who was shot has died.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/5843542/detail.html
http://www.bcstandard.com/news/2006/0105/Front_Page/001.html

Tequila_Sauer
January 11, 2006, 02:29 PM
Hear hear!

Some lessons just get learned the hard way.

Don't break into houses or bad things might happen to you.

I'd be interested in a Katie Couric interview with the homeowners. They came into Mr. Thrift's house and he put the scumbag in critical condition. Why didn't he shoot to wound instead?

silverbird
January 11, 2006, 02:44 PM
I dont know, How did paul thrift get to his gun as fast as he did in the pitch black? How did he position himself in the perfect spot.I can get my gun and point it at the door within seconds. It's not exactly a tactical maneuver that takes years of training.


I will give you this though, it is weird that the police would have been there (in the boonies) quick enough to apprehend the 17yo before he made it back to the car....but bottom line is, your cousins weren't where they were supposed to be. They would have ended up the same way if it were my house.

Art Eatman
January 11, 2006, 02:52 PM
Keep the language clean, or Grammaw will do some serious cleaning.

Art

engineer151515
January 11, 2006, 02:53 PM
............, knowing my cousin I know for a fact he would run out the door.



....... Police reports indicate the younger Munoz told investigators, "Me and Richard were just riding around and Richard told me that he wanted to go break in somebody’s house."

.........

Richard Munoz was a 2000 graduate of Baker County High School and is married with children. He joined the Air Force and completed basic training in early 2003. According to authorities, Robert was currently living in Ohio where his mother and father moved after leaving Baker County and was visiting his brother during the holidays. The Munoz’s list a Taft Road address. Neither brother had prior police records.




It is painful to loose someone you care for. Even more pain to learn they may have made a really poor decision or done something out of character. I hope you will be able to find some counseling - posting here will be of little help. You may never learn exactly why it happened. It could have been stress related. I've seen people do unbelievable things when stress "gets too much" for them. Find someone to talk to. Good luck.

Art Eatman
January 11, 2006, 03:04 PM
"Sheriff Dobson says the older suspect, Richard Munoz, was carrying a cocked and loaded pistol with him the whole time.

In fact, when deputies found Munoz on the floor of the house, they say he was still trying to reach for his gun."

Darkendangel, it doesn't matter one tiny bit what the homeowner knew or what skills he had or didn't have. He was in his home. That's all that counts.

Munoz was entirely in the wrong. You said the house was in the middle of nowhere: So, what was Munoz doing there, and with a gun in his hand?

He sure couldn't claim, "Avon calling!"

You're the one who needs to learn about Good Ol' Reality: Doing wrong can bring some other reward besides loot.

Art

71Commander
January 11, 2006, 03:13 PM
What led you to this thread/forum?

asiparks
January 11, 2006, 03:39 PM
Sorry that your cousin went off the rails, but he broke into someone elses home and he was armed. What should Mr Clift have done instead exactly ? Allow himself, his wife and unborn child to have been robbed, beaten, raped and killed ? Your cousin put himself and his younger brother in peril through his own actions, so your family should count themselves fortunate that only he ended up dead.

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 03:52 PM
Hooray for Paul Thrift!! Give him a medal, I say. He and his wife should sue the thug's survivors for the mental anguish, pain and suffering they experienced during the attack.
well i hope this paul thrift guy is happy my cousin died. he had two little babys one thats not even 2 and one that is 5 i hope everyone is happy now that this crook is dead.
Hey Bub:
If your cousin has "two little babys" that he wants to be alive to take care of, why in hell's half acre is he out comitting a home invasion crime?????

What was Paul Thrift supposed to do - let the two of them in and let them brutalize him and his pregnant wife, just because they were your cousins???

If that's what you think, perhaps you can explain to us all how and why your family has "above the law" status that allows them to commit crimes at will, smash their way into people's homes, rob/rape/murder them (or whatever your two angel from Heaven cousins had in mind) and do so with impunity.

If it were you in Mr. Thrift's shoes, you would have done the same thing and it would have been someone else's cousins that you shot.

Your cousins got what they deserved, plain and simple. Too bad they both weren't killed. Two less scumbag thugs and the world is a better place, IMHO.
IMHO they were out to do more than just rob the people in the house. Power and phone cut; no way to call for help nor able to light an area. Truck by road; for silent approach to the house.
Long way to reach escape vehicle; no one to be left alive at scene.
Going to bedroom; at that time of night that is where the occupants should be and was.
Small flashlight; just enough light to find his way but not enough to light up a large area that is able to be seem under the door..
When the bedroom door opened the homeowner was ready and probably just shot at the center of the door, hitting the BG.
Good shoot. I agree 100%.
Doing wrong can bring some other reward besides loot.
Yup...


Since the obvious must be stated for some, I will do so -

Progunner's Rules for Life #78: If you want to live, don't go around comitting home invasion crimes.:D :D :D

Any questions??

medic_guns
January 11, 2006, 04:24 PM
My neighbor was in a similar incident. The wheelchair bound woman sat quietly in her chair as the perp broke through a window. Her 95 year old mother lay in a bed in the room. The perp cut the phone line before entering. She played 'asleep' while he climbed all the way through the window and prepared his garrote (sp?) for her mothers neck. She hit the light switch and told him to hold it right there. He stared at her, started at her, and she fired a shot that missed. She told me personally ( I interviewed her for a college speech on Gun control) that he let out a real demonic laugh and told her he was going to kill her. She shot him in the gut, perforating a kidney and the bladder. His two friends outside ran away and left him to die on her floor. He begged her to go get him some help. She picked up her phone, which did not work, then told him, "You can lay right there and die." Two hours later, her neighbor's kids were heading out to school and she yelled at them to call the law. The man was barely alive and was rushed to Northeast Georgia Medical Center. The news coverage was somewhat sympathetic to the perp. Sheriff Bob Vass gave the shooter his personal gun after the deputies had to take hers as evidence. It was ruled a good shoot, too. She would be dead today if she did not have that little snubbie. It is a shame that someone has to die, but the intruder paid a price he should have been willing to pay. I hope I never have to use force.

monsternav
January 11, 2006, 04:24 PM
One article says the two had no prior arrest record (how would you know with a minor?).

The other says it has a mug shot of the older one from a previous arrest.

I bet that Richard had a history of crime, even if he only had a small (or no) record. Pretty hard to imagine starting out your criminal career doing an armed home invasion, cutting power, phones etc. Looks like he had a plan.

I wonder if there is some history/relationship between the players that is not being publicized?

Duncaninfrance
January 11, 2006, 04:45 PM
COME ON EVERYONE................They were inside a property they did not own!

GUILTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They deserve ALL that they got and NO arguments.

Confiscate EVERYTHING they own
Put them in jail
When they are let out - IF they deserve to be then give them $500 and tell them to make a new start with some professional help.

If they go back to crime then life on a chain gang. I bet you have lots of cleaning up jobs that need doiung in the States.

Cheers
Duncan

1whobuys
January 11, 2006, 05:34 PM
"doesn't mean that I am stupid"

The fact that you are defending how inocent they are makes you stupid.

The only crime here is that the home owner didn't double tap both of the POS's.

My house was robbed last Chrismas while I was in Iraq, they stole the money I had mailed home for my kids, I got home the day after for R&R.
If I would have been home the night before this story would have had my name on it with two dead bad guys.

I know they were armed because after the police left and I went through the house I found a .380 round in the bedroom.

What was there intent?

They stole $6,000.00 in cash and my cell phone.
If I would have been there It would have cost me about a "buck-fity" for the .45 ammo I would have given them.

brittany19
January 11, 2006, 08:06 PM
something doesn't seem right. there are no words to express the way i feel for your family even though i haven't been in the family long, in my heart i feel like something different happened maybe he knew them. why is it so hard for you people to believe that someone didn't cut there own phone line or throw something threw there own window. i think the homeowner was trying to cover up the fact that he murder a wonderful person. im just so sorry that his beautiful kids have to grow up without their father. even though i did'nt know him that well iv been crying and thinking about him everyday.evryone in this family that i have met has been wonderful and there for eachother like no other family, not even mine. i hope the truth comes out and i will pray for your other cousin.

brittany19
January 11, 2006, 08:12 PM
something doesn't seem right. there are no words to express the way i feel for your family even though i haven't been in the family long, in my heart i feel like something different happened maybe he knew them. why is it so hard for you people to believe that someone didn't cut there own phone line or throw something threw there own window. i think the homeowner was trying to cover up the fact that he murder a wonderful person. im just so sorry that his beautiful kids have to grow up without their father. even though i did'nt know him that well iv been crying and thinking about him everyday.evryone in this family that i have met has been wonderful and there for eachother like no other family, not even mine. i hope the truth comes out and i will pray for your other cousin.

springmom
January 11, 2006, 08:24 PM
Do you guys not know what a troll is?

...are encountered by the Three Billy Goats Gruff, and post stupid stuff on internet sites that if we just wait five seconds and think about, we won't even bother to respond to?

:D

Springmom

bigun15
January 11, 2006, 08:25 PM
Dobson says Richard Munoz and his 17-year-old brother had cut the power and phone lines to the house.

He should have just called the cops.

Sure would like to know what gun the homeowner shot the BG with.

Must have been a 9mm since the guy lived.:neener:

Igloodude
January 11, 2006, 08:30 PM
i think the homeowner was trying to cover up the fact that he murder a wonderful person.

Again, sorry for your loss, but why do you assume that the homeowner was any less wonderful than your cousin?

springmom
January 11, 2006, 08:38 PM
Well first of all you people have no right to talk about my education level you guys dont know anything about me.So why are you judging me. For all you know i could be a 50 year old.Just because i was typing fast, and really didn't give a <darn> about grammer, doesn't mean that I am stupid. I bet i can point out many of your guy's errors. Im not saying that my cousin didnt break into that guys house. Im just saying that this story seems a little bit weird to me. What i meant was I know my cousin got trained in how to get into a house if he needed to. Whos to know how he had the flashlight, he could have moved it far away from his body, no one knows that. I know all the details cause i talked to the police, and i saw what he looked like ok. Oh and to the person that said that it wouldn't make a diffrence if it was your family, come to me when it happens and tell me if your thoughts have changed. Im just saying this was a little weird of a story. I dont know, How did paul thrift get to his gun as fast as he did in the pitch black? How did he position himself in the perfect spot.i heard the wife was upstairs screaming, why whould my cousin even go up there if he heard that? I dont think he would, he would probably run out the door, knowing my cousin I know for a fact he would run out the door.

Darkenedangel:

If in fact you are actually this criminal's cousin, then first of all, I am sorry for your family's loss. One of the tough things about having a family member that messes up is that the rest of society looks at the remainder of the family as if they too are guilty. They...you...are not, but the tough fact is, it taints your family name. That is hard.

I went back and re-read the original story. Your cousin had a flashlight, and the homeowner was waiting in the dark for him. The homeowner didn't "go hunting" for the intruders; he waited. Let me assure you; I haven't been trained by anybody but myself, but if I were waiting for an intruder to walk in my bedroom, he would be framed by the door and lit up by his own flashlight. He'd have had to have his eyes closed NOT TO HIT YOUR COUSIN. If he aimed for the flashlight, that's all he had to do. I'm sorry to be graphic, but there it is.

How did he get to his gun? I don't know, but I know how I would have: I would have rolled over and grabbed it off the nightstand. It sleeps two feet from my head, that's how. It is always loaded and at that range, even my snubbie would not miss a target so perfectly presented. Again, I'm sorry to be graphic, but you're talking as if there is something fishy about the shooting, and I'm here to tell you that if you need to shoot an intruder, the circumstances just about couldn't be better for the homeowner.

The homeowner did the right thing. I imagine that, as your cousin's children grow up and you help raise and protect them, that there may come a time that you realize that you would do exactly that to protect them. Mr. Thrift did what he had to do. You need to grieve and move on. :(

Now, one disclaimer: if you are writing this just to get a rise out of people, then shame on you and get a life. :scrutiny:

Springmom

springmom
January 11, 2006, 08:48 PM
I will give you this though, it is weird that the police would have been there (in the boonies) quick enough to apprehend the 17yo before he made it back to the car....but bottom line is, your cousins weren't where they were supposed to be. They would have ended up the same way if it were my house.

Not really. I expect that the younger Mr. Munoz was a tad panicked and disoriented. Getting back 300 yards to that SUV would have been the longest 300 yards of his life. I'd think you'd be likely to wander a bit trying to regain your bearings after something like that.

It's been said but bears repeating: if you commit a home invasion, don't expect people to feel sorry for you when you get what you rightfully have coming.

Springmom

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 08:57 PM
i agree darkenedangel159

something doesn't seem right. there are no words to express the way i feel for your family even though i haven't been in the family long, in my heart i feel like something different happened maybe he knew them. why is it so hard for you people to believe that someone didn't cut there own phone line or throw something threw there own window. i think the homeowner was trying to cover up the fact that he murder a wonderful person. im just so sorry that his beautiful kids have to grow up without their father. even though i did'nt know him that well iv been crying and thinking about him everyday.evryone in this family that i have met has been wonderful and there for eachother like no other family, not even mine. i hope the truth comes out and i will pray for your other cousin.
What a genius.:barf:
i think the homeowner was trying to cover up the fact that he murder a wonderful person.
If that's the case, then prove it. If he was such a wonderful person, why the hell was he comitting a home invasion FELONY CRIME???? Huh??? Newsflash: "Wonderful people" don't commit home invasion FELONY CRIMES.
As I said earlier -
What was Paul Thrift supposed to do - let the two of them in and let them brutalize him and his pregnant wife, just because they were your cousins???

If that's what you think, perhaps you can explain to us all how and why your family has "above the law" status that allows them to commit crimes at will, smash their way into people's homes, rob/rape/murder them (or whatever your two angel from Heaven cousins had in mind) and do so with impunity.

The only conclusion a rational, intelligent mind can come to about the situation in question is -
Since the obvious must be stated for some, I will do so -

Progunner's Rules for Life #78: If you want to live, don't go around comitting home invasion crimes.

Any questions??

By the way, best of luck to both you and darkenedangel with your grammar. You both can still get your GED and maybe even learn to read, write and understand proper English in the process.

brittany19
January 11, 2006, 09:05 PM
one night i was sitting in my house and i herd a lady sreaming. i looked out the window and i didn't see anything so i walk next door where the sreams were coming from , and there sat a lady and a man she was sreaming get me out of here hes trying to kill me she was badly beaten so i grabed her by the hand and took her into my house. she called 911 and said i got beat by my boyfriend and gave them her name ,and they said the former sheriffs daughter she said yes. they were here in know time. and said many people called in and if they knew it was her they would have been there sooner.i had police coming to my door thinking me for a week. im glad i was there to help her, but i seen first hand how different she got treated because of who her father was you really just had to be there to see i just hope that this is'nt the case that they are'nt trying to cover something up because then the family will never know the truth.

Desertdog
January 11, 2006, 09:06 PM
Dobson says Richard Munoz and his 17-year-old brother had cut the power and phone lines to the house.
A very good illustration of why you should keep your cell phone with you at all times.

BTW, my wife and I are presently guilty of leaving our cell phone in a different room to charge up, but I think I will find a spot in our bedroom to charge it up at night.

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 09:12 PM
A very good illustration of why you should keep your cell phone with you at all times.

Cell phone and a big gun - .45ACP minimum, preferably 12ga. pump or auto:D:D

AK-74me
January 11, 2006, 09:14 PM
Strangely enough brittany19 types exactly like Darkendangle.....

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 09:15 PM
Family trees that look like a broomstick are similarly afflicted...

brittany19
January 11, 2006, 09:45 PM
i can tell you this we are not the same person i just want you to look at this
in other way what if it comes back that we were right. that he did'nt go in there to kill or rob them.

and don't get me wrong if someone came into my house i would'nt just sit there waiting for him to kill me. im just saying i don't think that he could do anything like that.

cowboybobb693
January 11, 2006, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by bastandard.com
....... Police reports indicate the younger Munoz told investigators, "Me and Richard were just riding around and Richard told me that he wanted to go break in somebodyís house."

.........

Richard Munoz was a 2000 graduate of Baker County High School and is married with children. He joined the Air Force and completed basic training in early 2003. According to authorities, Robert was currently living in Ohio where his mother and father moved after leaving Baker County and was visiting his brother during the holidays. The Munozís list a Taft Road address. Neither brother had prior police records.

Okay, Let me see if I can sort this out. Munoz was a 2000 graduate of this High School and ATTENDED Air Force basic training in 2003. This is now 2006.
2003 from 2006 is 3 years, so far is my math correct??? So that makes me wonder how this person was able to get out after/before 3 years of service when the standard contract is 6 years. Could be they found out that he was an "unsuitable" person and chucked his butt out, maybe.
Then he does something stupid/fatal and breaks into a guys house and gets a couple of well placed rounds in his noodle and is off to the pearly gates and I'm supposed to feel sorry for him ??? Do I have this right so far???
Hate to tell ya this Angel but after doing 6 years as an Air Force PJ ( that's Special Ops in case you didn't know) We were never taught how to break into a house, so your cousin was feeding you a LOOOOOONNNNG line of BS.
The punk got what any lowlife deserves when breaking into another man's castle.

Ralph
January 11, 2006, 09:51 PM
What led you to this thread/forum?

:rolleyes:

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 09:54 PM
im just saying i don't think that he could do anything like that.Obviously, you were wrong about him...
The punk got what any lowlife deserves when breaking into another man's castle.
I'll go along with Cowboy Bob on that.

By the way Cowboy Bob, I am an Air Force veteran. The only way the thug in question would have gotten out of the Air Force - which offers only 4 and 6 year enlistment options - during a time of war is:

1.) Medical disability (physical or mental).
2.) Court martial resulting in either a "bad conduct," "dishonorable," or "under other than honorable conditions" discharge.

From what we know, I will say this is the most likely scenario.

Like all the other military branches, the Air Force does not let people out during time of war just because they discover that they do not enjoy military life.

brittany19
January 11, 2006, 10:21 PM
what lead me to this site was trying to find out if anything else was said
about them and came across it

monsternav
January 11, 2006, 10:26 PM
This whole paragraph is poorly written.


Richard Munoz was a 2000 graduate of Baker County High School and is married with children. He joined the Air Force and completed basic training in early 2003. According to authorities, Robert was currently living in Ohio where his mother and father moved after leaving Baker County and was visiting his brother during the holidays. The Munozís list a Taft Road address. Neither brother had prior police records.


It does not say Richard was not in the Air Force. Robert, the young one who was down visiting from Ohio. Although if he lived in that area it is about 40 miles from the closest base (NAS JAX). Nearest AFB looks like Moody. He could also be a Reservist.

All in all he got what he deserved. Too bad Mr. Thrift has to live with killing someone. Hopefully he can take solace in the fact that he not only saved his life, but his wife and unborn childs also.

joab
January 11, 2006, 10:54 PM
what if it comes back that we were right. that he did'nt go in there to kill or rob them. Tell you what, give a reasonable explanation of why you think a wonderful father would go into another person's home uninvited at 1am and head for the bedroom where the occupants should be sleeping

I'll leave out the lights phone and busted window because you think that that was made up

You say come to you when a family member of mine is killed in this type of situation.
OK I'm coming to you and saying good shoot.

Now you come to me when someone invades your home and threatens your family in the middle of the night and tell me you would not act as the home owner in this case did
But do it after you learn to type coherent sentences

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 11:02 PM
But do it after you learn to type coherent sentences Come on - be reasonable!!:D

progunner1957
January 11, 2006, 11:03 PM
oops.

drinks
January 12, 2006, 12:13 AM
To the trolls two;
I suspect your thinking ability is on a par with your composition and spelling.
, unless, of course, you are both just lieing.
:eek: :rolleyes:

joab
January 12, 2006, 12:31 AM
Cousins (if you are)

I suppose my previous post was a bit uncalled for.
You are obviously young, despite your protests to the contrary, and have lost someone close to you, I'm guessing between 15 and 19 years old (there's actually some clever deduction in there if you look a little)

You have learned a hard adult lesson at the cost of a love one
Actions have consequences, dire acts have dire consequences.
Instead of looking for reasons that this did not happen look for reasons for it not to happen to you or those close to you again.

AF_INT1N0
January 12, 2006, 12:46 AM
1. it's a troll

4. since when did everyone trained in the airforce get "ninja" training on how to break in a home undetected?



Hey AK-47 new Airforce new training.. Haven't you heard....

We even got our own uber tactical hand signals..

http://www.fortliberty.org/patriotic-humor/patriotic-pictures/military-hand-signals.jpg
Not ninjas indeed..:neener:

springmom
January 12, 2006, 01:39 AM
Strangely enough brittany19 types exactly like Darkendangle.....

You noticed that, too..... :scrutiny:

Methinks we billy goats gruff are being trolled.....

Springmom

progunner1957
January 12, 2006, 01:40 AM
I still have my blue throwing stars and nunchaku from Air Force basic training:neener: :neener:

Don Gwinn
January 12, 2006, 02:33 AM
I have cousins who were, at one time, sort of teetering on the brink of becoming thugs. They were small-time dope users, might have sold a little, and one of them actually managed to get sent to jail for stealing a load of grain from a local farm (it's a long story, but it's all true.)

Thank God they all seem to have come through that and decided they'd rather settle down and raise their families. However, at the time, several people in the family discussed the possibility that one or more of our buddies was going to end up in prison or get shot if things got much worse. We all agreed that it would be terrible, but there wouldn't be much we could do about it--their behavior was escalating toward making it inevitable. We never discussed whether we would attempt to blame their bad ends on the police officers or homeowners who were forced to administer the lesson--I don't think it occurred to us to do so.

On the other hand, every news story about some thug with a mile-long record getting shot as he's holding a bus full of nuns hostage has to feature the bad guy's mom sobbing that he was a fine boy and those PO-lease murdered him in cold blood. This is no different. You loved him, so reason goes out the window and any excuse to think he wasn't so bad becomes a solid fact in your mind. In a way, I don't blame you. I just know better than to take the ranting seriously. You wouldn't take it seriously either if you weren't impaired by grief and anger.



And to everyone:
No more personal stuff. If you think they're trolls, don't feed them. If you think their cousin was killed, try to be civil.

progunner1957
January 12, 2006, 06:18 AM
It's been said but bears repeating: if you commit a home invasion, don't expect people to feel sorry for you when you get what you rightfully have coming.

Springmom


'Nuff said...

Igloodude
January 12, 2006, 09:17 AM
i can tell you this we are not the same person i just want you to look at this
in other way what if it comes back that we were right. that he did'nt go in there to kill or rob them.

I can't think of any plausible reason (besides burglary) for an armed stranger to enter a house at 1AM, can you?

brittany19
January 12, 2006, 02:38 PM
no i can't think of other reason someone would enter a house at 1am eather. if thats what really happened then thats what really happened we can't change that

if it comes back that all of you are right ill let it go and move on

as should all of you.

medic_guns
January 12, 2006, 03:16 PM
no i can't think of other reason someone would enter a house at 1am eather. if thats what really happened then thats what really happened we can't change that

if it comes back that all of you are right ill let it go and move on

as should all of you.


That's funny. I don't think we should move on at all. I think we should continue to discuss it in a civilized manner. We should all be aware of the possibility that some criminal could break in our home in the middle of the night and try to kill our family like brutal devils. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE DEFENDING ROTTEN CRIMINALS. I'M TIRED OF MOLESTERS, RAPISTS, MURDERERS, PUNKS, THIEVES, OPPORTUNISTIC LEACHES!!!!!


Sorry for screaming, but I am tired of all of the attacks on the innocent folks. Unborn babies, little old ladies, women, men, helpless folks. I made a post on the .380 thread earlier about a guy that was shot to death with a
.380 after he brandished a .45. He was a cousin of a close friend. He was a lifelong criminal covered with tats and he victimized many people before someone did him in like Tupac.

Pocket full of shells.

Guy B. Meredith
January 12, 2006, 04:01 PM
Ha. Even in Kali when someone breaks into your residence, personal danger is assumed and it is a good shooting unless someone can come up with extenuating circumstances.

joab
January 12, 2006, 07:39 PM
if thats what really happened then thats what really happened we can't change thatAre you suggesting that he was not really in the house, the old drag them inside routine?

Could you explain why the car was parked so far away from the house, there was no mention of a breakdown in any of the articles.

Why was your cousin carrying a gun, does he have a cCCW permit, or do you think it was planted?

Why would the 17 year old confess to wanting to rob the house, or do you think the confession was beaten out of him?

I really would like to know your thoughts on this.
Sometimes stepping away from the emotional aspects of the situation and answering hard logical questions can help you deal with it

brittany19
January 12, 2006, 08:37 PM
im not shure why he was in the house maybe he was welcomed in.
maybe they knew each other

why could'nt they have known each other?

as for the 17 year old i don't think that he confessed
like darkenangel said
he would'nt have called him richard.

something does'nt feel right!

joab
January 12, 2006, 08:54 PM
why could'nt they have known each other?why would the homeowner feel the need to kill someone he knew and welcomed in?
Why did your cousin take a gun to a house he was welcome in?
Does he have a CCW permit

as for the 17 year old i don't think that he confessed Do you think the confession that the police have was coerced?

The boy could have said "me and Boo went to the house"
The cop would respond "by Boo you mean Richard"?
"Yeah, yeah me and Richard went to the house, and Boo got shot"

Newspapers frequently use artistic omissions in their articles and nobody has posted the entire statement yet.

Why would they park the car so far away in a location that would suggest a classic stealth attack?

something doesn't feel right!I agree

brittany19
January 12, 2006, 09:44 PM
why did he park so far away?

i'm not really shure. maybe it was something simple like he could'nt open the gate.

brittany19
January 12, 2006, 10:03 PM
did you ever think( maybe )he carried a gun at all times.

just because you know someone does't mean you like that person

yes i think the confession was forced
because the public would have known who the 17 year old was talking about.it was nothing crazy like bub

when i was reading the newspaper that was the first thing that stuk out to me

benEzra
January 12, 2006, 10:36 PM
darkenedangel and brittany19,

I sympathize with your loss. Honestly.

However, as a husband and father, I have to say that if someone cuts my power and phone lines, breaks into my house, and looks for the bedroom with a cocked handgun in his hand (if it were holstered, it wouldn't have fallen on the floor after he was shot), I would be forced to use force at that point. If someone wants to walk off with my TV, they can have it, but when they open the bedroom door at 1am with a gun in their hand, the only reasonable conclusion would be that they wish to harm me and my family.

The homeowner wasn't just being paranoid. Just this past week, this family was tied up by a couple of home invaders and had their throats cut. All of them, even the little girls:

http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/news/HARVEYfamily0107.jpg
Family Slain in Richmond (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=175078)

Knowing that this happens, if two armed men broke into my house after cutting the power and phone lines, the only rational course of action I have is to get my wife and young children to the bedroom and defend them there. And at across-the-room distances, I don't think I'd miss.

Having said that, I certainly do NOT rejoice in your cousin's death. Any death is a tragedy. But every indication so far is that it was either him, or the homeowner, his wife, and their unborn child.

If there is indeed any "funny business" going on, rest assured that the police will uncover what really happened. Forensic experts will almost certainly go over the scene of the shooting and determine EXACTLY what happened, and make sure it's consistent with the homeowner's story. They will also be able to examine the home's phone and power connections to see if they were cut or not. They will trace the gun your cousin was allegedly carrying and dust it for his fingerprints. And so on.

This may not mean anything to you, but my wife did have a cousin "go bad" and he went to prison for accessory to murder (their victim didn't have a gun to shoot back). They killed a father and shot his son several times, but the son lived and identified one of the killers. Had Michael been shot instead of their victims, I think my wife's family would have been saddened, but I don't think they would have felt any worse than they did when they found out that their cousin had helped murder a man and tried to murder his kid.

Apologies for some of the abrasive comments, if you are indeed truly cousins of the deceased. I think darkenedangel came across as someone pretending to be a relative in order to stir things up (we do get a good number of trolls here).

joab
January 12, 2006, 10:54 PM
i'm not really shure. maybe it was something simple like he could'nt open the gate.Was the gate 300 yards from the house, I've never seen that on anything but an estate

did you ever think( maybe )he carried a gun at all times. That would be why I asked repeatedly if he had a CCW permit

just because you know someone doesn't mean you like that personI can't think of one reason I would go the house of some one I didn't like at 1a.m. and I'm sure not going to "welcome" somebody I don't like into my home at 1am

yes i think the confession was forced
because the public would have known who the 17 year old was talking about.it was nothing crazy like bub The public would not have been the ones questioning him and legal paperwork is most times specific and Ricky, Ricko, Risckster or Babalou would be clarified to his given name
Why would the police have coerced a confession so quickly, they usually wait a little while before bringing out the phone books?

I apologize about the "Boo got shot" reference it seems to have gone over too many heads or at the very least it is too obscure a reference

It seems to me that you are basing all of your opinions on emotion driven straw grasping and have not yet come up with one reasonable answer to any of the issues

brittany19
January 12, 2006, 11:44 PM
the reason i say it could have been invited in is because anyone who lives in a small town knows each other if you watch one of the video clips they all say how they knew them

Yes he did have a CCW so i dont think the gun was planted
but i do feel theres a cover up for 1 big reason when shot in the head how would you still be reaching for a gun?

joab
January 12, 2006, 11:49 PM
when shot in the head how would you still be reaching for a gun?A head shot does not always mean instant incapacitation.

The Internet is full of tales of people with horrific head injuries that go on to live full unimpeded lives

How old was the cousin that died

the reason i say it could have been invited in is because anyone who lives in a small town knows each other if you watch one of the video clips they all say how they knew themThen I ask again. Why would the homeowner invite him in entice him to the bedroom and shoot him at 1 AM

What was his previous arrests for?

brittany19
January 12, 2006, 11:59 PM
he was 23 the bullet took half of his head i would say it incapacitated him
as for why he was there i have my opinions but would rather not say as of now because i dont want to possibly offend the family

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 01:36 AM
:cuss: Myself reading everything that people have wrote, in response to Richard and his brothers actions. I can say has disturbed me. It is always easy to cast quick blame, and fault or however you would like to put it. But in all honesty all of you don't not know the whole story as to what happened that night. Yes, given the homeowners position, what they did I would have done the same. But, That was my husband and I knew him better than any of you or anyone else who has any input to the situation. Drugs were involved, with that alone you never really know, was the homeowner involved in the same circle? For him to have picked that particular house, (living in macclenny myself it wasn't easily found) he knew what he was doing. Finding the real answers with him being gone, will be hard. I will find those answers. To clear his name and for people to know that he wasn't a walking screw up. He loved his family and yes, served in the Air Force. HE HELD steady jobs.

Sometimes, people have issues inside themselves that given wrong situations, people you meet you make honest, but wrong choices. Knowing in the right frame of mind you would not do it again. He just isn't here anymore to know, and learn never to do it again.

So which leads me back to what everyone has to say. You sit around in your huose, watch the news and say how he deserved to die, and well I don't have to write anymore we all know. Shows me how shallow you people really are. Because when there are drugs involved, you never know how deep the situation really was. Those innocent people might not be innocent. I talk with the investigators, I know what is going on. And you all can sit back and make stupid hypothisis as to what happened, it really dosen't bother me personally. It is just that MY HUSBAND of 8 years, isn't here to defened himself and I will do so in his honor. NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE HAS TO SAY!!!:(

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 01:43 AM
To clear up any misunderstanings as to him still grabbing for his gun, after being shot in the head. With that kind of trauma to the brain, and the location of which he was shot, and how the bullet bounced around the brain adn lodged in the second vertebre in the neck. He was involuntarly moving the way someone instantly brain dead would do. Doctors words to me.

joab
January 13, 2006, 01:49 AM
as for why he was there i have my opinions but would rather not say as of now because i dont want to possibly offend the familyToo convenient an answer to be credible

One thing that I am noticing is that when a new family appears the others seem to disappear, but I'll leave that alone for now

I have been asking questions as to the family's view on the events, but don't seem to be getting anywhere.

On the surface it has all the hallmarks of a justifiable good shooting.
It really doesn't matter if the home owners were the biggest drug dealers in town

As the story goes two people engage in the violent criminal invasion of another's home, under Fla law and most other state it is a cut and dry justifiable shooting.
Now it seems drugs were involved and the deceased made an honest but wrong choice.

What were his prior convictions for?

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 01:58 AM
Prior convictions? Where are you people getting your information from. He had never been in any trouble with the law. The SO CALLED MUG SHOT channel 4 gave out, was wrong!! If people have and statements to make of accusations to make at least make sure the information you recieve is correct to say anything about this whole situation.:cuss:

joab
January 13, 2006, 02:06 AM
OK
The newspaper are lying about his record
The police are lying about the confession
The victims are lying about the home invasion
The first responders are lying about what they found at the crime scene

Why is there this big conspiracy against these two honest but mistaken cousins

joab
January 13, 2006, 02:11 AM
Wait a minute
It is just that MY HUSBAND of 8 years,
he was 23 t
You've been married since he was 15?

Art Eatman
January 13, 2006, 02:15 AM
The fact remains that entering somebody else's house in the middle of the night is not indicative of a strong survival instinct. The law is on the side of the resident, not the entrant, in the event of hostilities.

That people park some hundreds of yards from the house and then walk to the house in the middle of the night, and armed, does not bode well for belief in their lack of harmful intent. This disbelief is augmented by the reported severing of the phone and power lines.

I live in a community which is small in numbers. Several hundred, in the immediate environs. I know many of them, but the "everybody knows everybody" argument is not believable to me. Similarly, one can be aware of the location of a house without knowing the residents...

Art

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 02:19 AM
Not legally married, but in my eyes we had been, since that is so important. If you would like to know we just celebrated our legal marriage of 3 years Dec. 23. Why is so hard for people to expand there minds past the news and law enforcement who may I say have been proven wrong plenty of times.
Enough that I can take in only about maybe ( given slim credit) 1/2 of what they say to be true there are to many dishonest people anymore. Sad to say but it is just how it is. They are looking for to much wrong, instead of actually trying to find out the truth. Misery loves company.

joab
January 13, 2006, 02:25 AM
so why not turn the conspiracy towards the homeowners?

gunfan
January 13, 2006, 02:31 AM
And they say "Call 911, and let the cops handle it."

Yeah, whatever! I say, KILL THE BA$T@&DS!

Scott

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 02:41 AM
I will say it this way.I knew the kind of person he was inside. From the heart. Not a murderer.Never been in any trouble before, with the law. Everyone who met him and knew him personally, are as confused as I am. Not blaming the homeowners, I had even stated that being in there shoes I would have done the same. But, Knowing more about the story than anyone in this forum obviously, there had to be more than a robbery. There was to much to take without getting caught. And putting himself at risk to never come home to his family again, isn't something he would've done without reason. Look at the big picture. Not just what is plastered all over the news and hearsay.

JohnKSa
January 13, 2006, 02:49 AM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

served in the Air ForceFrom the past tense, I assume he wasn't in the Air Force any longer. Why was he discharged?Never been in any trouble before, with the law.Why did the cops have a mugshot of him?Look at the big picture.Tell you what. I'm willing to look at the big picture. Here's the small picture. Dead guy was in someone else's house after dark with a loaded gun and a flashlight.

Ok, your turn--give me a big picture that makes that anything but a very, VERY illegal situation that is MORE than sufficient to make a homeowner scared enough to shoot.

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 03:01 AM
Well. since it is so important to you. Honorable discharge. Medical. Mug shot, why do you think it was a mug shot? B/C the news had it? Well, to let you know I will have channel 4 detract that false statment and picture. you will see that in time. I thinkI would know if he had any priors. that isn't easily hidden. Traffic tickets. Yes, Music to loud. If people really want to dig. And I believe A couple of stop signs. IF you get mug shots for those? Maybe then.

Big picture, wouldn't you do anything to protect your family if you were threatened? I know I would.

JohnKSa
January 13, 2006, 03:26 AM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

You absolutely do NOT get mug shots for traffic citations. You don't even get taken to the police station for a mere traffic citation so it's totally implausible that they would take an arrest photo of you. Mug shots are--well--mug shots. They don't look like much of anything else. If the paper printed a mug shot, it was a mug shot and it was taken because the person in it was arrested. Maybe not convicted, but certainly arrested.Big picture, wouldn't you do anything to protect your family if you were threatened?You're saying that you were threatened so he took his gun and flashlight and broke in to someone's house to protect you? That is a pretty long stretch, especially since you have offered absolutely zero evidence that anything like that was at issue.

But, ok, let's take a look at that possibility.

First of all, that is still completely illegal. You absolutely can NOT go break into someone's house with a gun to "protect someone" who's not even on the premises. Not even if they threaten you. Not even if they have tried to kill a family member in the past. If you or one of his other family members were tied up inside the house WHEN he broke in, that MIGHT be sufficient reason to do what he did, but anything short of that, and he was WAY over the line of legality and the homeowner would have been legally (though perhaps not morally) justified in shooting him.

Second, if he were so frightened that his family might be in danger, why didn't he contact the police? After all, he's a fine upstanding citizen with an honorable discharge from the armed forces. At the very least, the police would file a report and we'd have a tiny bit of a clue what he was doing. Of course, it would still have been illegal, and the homeowner would still have been legally AND morally justified in shooting him.

Third. Ok, so now we come to his accomplice. Why would one of his own relatives say that they were just looking around for a random house to break into when he could have said that they were going to so and so's house because that person made them fear for their families' safety. Surely it would make more sense for him to tell the story of why what they were doing made sense (even it wasn't totally legal) rather than admitting to a senseless crime right away?

I'm sorry, but your "big picture" is not credible in any way shape or form, and even if it were, it does not even come CLOSE to offering him a legal reason to be in the house.

gremlin_bros
January 13, 2006, 03:44 AM
i can tell you this we are not the same person i just want you to look at this
in other way what if it comes back that we were right. that he did'nt go in there to kill or rob them.

and don't get me wrong if someone came into my house i would'nt just sit there waiting for him to kill me. im just saying i don't think that he could do anything like that.
ok ill bite tell us all dear brittany tell us all.
WHY WAS HE THERE WITH A GUN IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY BRITTANY WHY???? answer is he was wrong nomatter how you try to spin it and he got dead because he broke the law. if it had been my house and my wife i would have been using my 12 guage and since its a nice long hall to my bedroom probably have nailed both of them.

fact is it was a good shot. there was aloss of life and that is always a sad thing. but it dosent change the fact they had broken in cut power and comunication and were armed. it was a good shoot weather or not you like it i mean hey i hate the loss of any life but ill be damed if i am going to lie down and die for sombody who tryes to hurt me or mine or gives me good reason to think they will.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 03:49 AM
The perp cut the power and phone lines, forced entry to the house, and one of them was armed.

Call me callous, but he deserved to die.

+1 for a good shoot.

darkenedangel159
January 13, 2006, 03:55 AM
um i dunno i didnt read anyones stuff.. what the thing im tryin to get at here.. is what if my cousin knew jody paul.. and his wife.. what if it was a bad drug deal that went bad? and my 2 cousins were in there and somthin went wrong.. and jody shot him and then my 17 year old was freaked.. whos not 2 say that this jody paul guy cut the power n phone and then threw the anchor threw the glass door? what if he didnt place the gun in his hand? noone know im just sayin it needs to get looked into.. did they even check the anchor for prints..

gremlin_bros
January 13, 2006, 04:09 AM
um i dunno i didnt read anyones stuff.. what the thing im tryin to get at here.. is what if my cousin knew jody paul.. and his wife.. what if it was a bad drug deal that went bad? and my 2 cousins were in there and somthin went wrong.. and jody shot him and then my 17 year old was freaked.. whos not 2 say that this jody paul guy cut the power n phone and then threw the anchor threw the glass door? what if he didnt place the gun in his hand? noone know im just sayin it needs to get looked into.. did they even check the anchor for prints..
if it had been a drug deal why was the car parked so far away?
if it had been a drug deal where are the drugs or why didnt the police find any drugs
besides then answer us this if it was a drug deal gone wrong what was your "good cousin" doing there in the first place.
look i feel sorry there has been a los of life thats always a sad thing. but face it your cousin was wrong. it's hard to accept i know but it dosent change a thing. if you wanna help your cousin you still can by helping to raise his children and teaching them not to do stupid things like drugs or home invasions etc. teach them to lead good moral lives and not go down a road that will lead only to pain for them and thier family. theach them that and you will help your cousin.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 04:18 AM
if it had been a drug deal why was the car parked so far away?
if it had been a drug deal where are the drugs or why didnt the police find any drugs
besides then answer us this if it was a drug deal gone wrong what was your "good cousin" doing there in the first place.
look i feel sorry there has been a los of life thats always a sad thing. but face it your cousin was wrong. it's hard to accept i know but it dosent change a thing. if you wanna help your cousin you still can by helping to raise his children and teaching them not to do stupid things like drugs or home invasions etc. teach them to lead good moral lives and not go down a road that will lead only to pain for them and thier family. theach them that and you will help your cousin.

I don't think this person is for real, my friend. Look, three posts to their name. Right after their "good cousin" gets killed, they find the internet message board where it is being discussed, and argue with random people about the particulars of the situation. If they were truly grieving for a family member who was wrongly killed, what the F would the be doing on the internet????

This person is full of it, I betcha. Just ignore them.

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 04:25 AM
Knowing what a mug shot is..... I was being a smart a**. As said before, just b/c the news has a supposed MUG SHOT dosn't mean that it is. When in mug shots are you allowed jewlrey? They take everything you have before, right? Look closer at the picture. It will be detracted as fasle information. I am not defending the fact everything he did was right. It wasn't. I am shocked to this fact. IT WASN'T HIM. But, I am not closeing the door that there WAS more involved in this. He had NO PRIORS! Why would someone just go inside a house, go through all the trouble, and not know them? Knowing he did have a family of his own waiting on him. For you it may be a long shot, his motive being threatened. But, to people who knew him, it isn't.

I will say he is my husband, I love him with all my heart. What he did was wrong, even maybe in his head being the best of reasons. (threatened) But for people to sit around and act like he is, was a walking screw up isn't right. B/c he wasn't. There is more and the truth will come out. If I have to make a life's work of it, I will. I will not allow others to go unknown, while he is smeared beyond and repair. To many lose ends.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 04:29 AM
Knowing what a mug shot is..... I was being a smart a**. As said before, just b/c the news has a supposed MUG SHOT dosn't mean that it is. When in mug shots are you allowed jewlrey? They take everything you have before, right? Look closer at the picture. It will be detracted as fasle information. I am not defending the fact everything he did was right. It wasn't. I am shocked to this fact. IT WASN'T HIM. But, I am not closeing the door that there WAS more involved in this. He had NO PRIORS! Why would someone just go inside a house, go through all the trouble, and not know them? Knowing he did have a family of his own waiting on him. For you it may be a long shot, his motive being threatened. But, to people who knew him, it isn't.

I will say he is my husband, I love him with all my heart. What he did was wrong, even maybe in his head being the best of reasons. (threatened) But for people to sit around and act like he is, was a walking screw up isn't right. B/c he wasn't. There is more and the truth will come out. If I have to make a life's work of it, I will. I will not allow others to go unknown, while he is smeared beyond and repair. To many lose ends.

Why are you posting on an internet message board if someone you loved was just killed unjustly?

B...S.

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 04:32 AM
What the F am I doing on the internet? I recieved a phone call earlier this day from a friend. That friend informed me, of this little discussion. She stummbled apon the forum by trying to find information on everything going on. So, of course hearing what had been wrote. (her reading it) I was a little angry and decided that if people didn't have anything else better to do, than think they know what is going on and write about it. I would defend him. Since he can't speak for himself.

Since the sorry bastared got what he deserved.

It would be easy to say things like that about people you don't know. But knowing if it had been one of your family members, those same words would not come from your mouths. Even as wrong as they may have been. So grow up and show a little respect. You always don't know the whole truth. As pretty of a picture the news may paint. Years go by and the truth comes out. Then who is the fool?

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 04:57 AM
And to all the shallow, inconsiterate, :cuss: , who say he deserved to die...
I guess that goes to show the mentallity you have. Know one deserves to die. That isn't our call. God has a plan for everyone. I will leave it to him. As misunderstood as things maybe. And that goes for all situations. They deserve punishment, but how God sees fit. to think of the loves ones left behind who honestly have nothing to do with these situations, have to grieve and still listen to people like you. As said before knowing if the shoe were on the other foot u would not say the same anymore. And would want repect, and justice. Or just truth.

But keep sitting back, saying your callius, hurtful and senseless remarks. And one day GOD forbid it should happen to you, hopefully people will show you a little more repect.:(

beerslurpy
January 13, 2006, 04:59 AM
I'll say it again because you obviously missed it. The only reason your relative got shot is because:
-he found himself at the door to a man's bedroom
-uninvited
-in the middle of the night
-with a gun in his hand
-in a house that had mysteriously just had the phone and power lines cut
-after having forced entry into the house

What would you do in such circumstances? What would anyone be expected to do? You shoot the bastard. It is a reasonable, morally correct and legally correct action to take. I'm sorry for your loss, but the blame for it lies in the hands of the deceased. He forced the homeowner to take this course of action against him.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 05:12 AM
And to all the shallow, inconsiterate, :cuss: , who say he deserved to die...
I guess that goes to show the mentallity you have. Know one deserves to die. That isn't our call. God has a plan for everyone. I will leave it to him. As misunderstood as things maybe. And that goes for all situations. They deserve punishment, but how God sees fit. to think of the loves ones left behind who honestly have nothing to do with these situations, have to grieve and still listen to people like you. As said before knowing if the shoe were on the other foot u would not say the same anymore. And would want repect, and justice. Or just truth.

But keep sitting back, saying your callius, hurtful and senseless remarks. And one day GOD forbid it should happen to you, hopefully people will show you a little more repect.:(

Okay, if you are legit, and I'll take it on faith that you are, then I'm sorry for your loss. I have lost friends and relatives, and I know the empty feeling that it can create in one's life.

Oh, by the way, I have been attacked and had my life directly put in present and mortal danger, stop in at this thread if you are curious:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=176348

I'm with beerslurpy on this one. A person who forces entry, armed, into another's house, at night...and gets shot, has only themself to blame.

As for appeals to your god, youíll find me pretty non-responsive on all counts.

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 05:22 AM
Once again I will say, I know why he got shot!! I said I would've done the same thing being in the homeowners shoes. What he did was wrong. But, the way everything happened, there is more........
People are missing that! People tend to take things into their own hands. Even when they shouldn't you tend to think unrationably in situations that can be very stressful. Not justifying. But humans are far from perfect.
The thing I am getting at is people are running him in the ground. Not even knowing the person he was. Before this situation. Saying things that arn't true of him. That he cannot defend.
I have spoke with the brother they wern't looking for a house to rob that night. Just to clarify that as well.
And if there wasn't more why are the investigators trying to find the answer to what happened so bad. Why has everyone they have spoke with say IT WASN'T HIM...way out of character.
This could be an open and closed case, but it isn't yet.
To many loose ends....

beerslurpy
January 13, 2006, 05:31 AM
Who cut the power and phone lines? Who put him in the doorway of the man's bedroom so he could get shot? As some sort of fabricated alibi to cover up a bad shoot, none of the facts add up that way. Bullet casings, leaked blood, overpenetrated bullets, fingerprints. Telling a lie is one thing, faking an entire complex crime scene and coordinating an alibi with the wife in such a short amount of time is pretty farfetched.

The reasonable and obvious conclusion is that your relative acted out of character and got himself killed. It's sad, I can't explain it, but that is what seems to have happened and it is a fully justified use of force.

Did blood tests reveal that he was on anythign at the time? Meth maybe? That seems to be a prime offender around here lately. A friend of a friend's husband got his head blown off new years eve over an argument about 5 dollars. The guy who shot him was his best friend, high as a kite on meth. Even if it wasnt meth, there are couple of commonly available drugs that can make people do profoundly stupid and life shortening things. But no one forces anyone to get high and act stupid.

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 05:32 AM
Thank you for your repect. I did visit the thread. As I said, being in that situation I would protect my family as well. :(

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 05:50 AM
Not denying he cut the power. He was an electrician. Graduated with honors from Decker Trade school of Construction. Not that the homeowners fabricated anything. But, why also would the homeowner say "did ? send you here." IF everything was peaches. These are the things I am saying. Things not everyone knows abuot. You hear one side, while I am on the other with the investigators. he did what he did. God forgive him for that. His Toxicoligy report will not return for at least 1-2 months. The hospital found no major drugs in his system. trust me I had them test. B/c he wasn't himself, with that kind of action.
If it were to come back and the drugs drove him crazy. That is something nobody can answer as to why he chose that. Not to make it right, but hidden issues make people do bad things. But in there soul, they are good people. Just lead astray, easily inflluenced and burdened with issues beyond their scope.
But with certain things, it cannot be so. Maybe just around the wrong people. Wrong time. (not exactly speaking of the homeowners) I just wish the whole situation never happened for the people he invaded and our family
If you can understand where I am comming from.

beerslurpy
January 13, 2006, 06:03 AM
Well let us know what they uncover in toxicology or from the 17 year old.

gremlin_bros
January 13, 2006, 06:19 AM
Not denying he cut the power. He was an electrician. Graduated with honors from Decker Trade school of Construction. Not that the homeowners fabricated anything. But, why also would the homeowner say "did ? send you here." IF everything was peaches. These are the things I am saying. Things not everyone knows abuot. You hear one side, while I am on the other with the investigators. he did what he did. God forgive him for that. His Toxicoligy report will not return for at least 1-2 months. The hospital found no major drugs in his system. trust me I had them test. B/c he wasn't himself, with that kind of action.
If it were to come back and the drugs drove him crazy. That is something nobody can answer as to why he chose that. Not to make it right, but hidden issues make people do bad things. But in there soul, they are good people. Just lead astray, easily inflluenced and burdened with issues beyond their scope.
But with certain things, it cannot be so. Maybe just around the wrong people. Wrong time. (not exactly speaking of the homeowners) I just wish the whole situation never happened for the people he invaded and our family
If you can understand where I am comming from.
now your getting sane truth it it dosent matter if he was on druge or got mixed up with the wrong crowd what matters is he made some bad choices and it got him dead. the why may never be answered to your satifaction truth is it probably wont. you can if this thing to death if he was on drugs if he was around the wrong crowd if he did it just for kicks if dosent matter what matters is he did make some bad choices and paied for them with his life. now go home look at the two children he left you with and teach them to make better choices he let them and you down dont you let them down by not being there when they need you the most love them teach them do right by them.

Stand_Watie
January 13, 2006, 07:04 AM
Good shoot even in Gd's eyes.

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

mitchshrader
January 13, 2006, 08:52 AM
convenient for all concerned. could have done a lot more damage if it'd been put off.

hope any who practice similar home invasions wind up as conveniently dead.

i will attempt, if required, to follow the good example this american citizen has provided for protecting my family.

and as for 'his little babies' parenthood is cancelled with death. good parents don't get shot breaking into houses. it's one of the known issues that defines BAD PARENTS.

Kodiaz
January 13, 2006, 09:17 AM
Anyone who is offended by the wise decision of our great governor to give the citizens of the great state of FL a complete right to self defense, should MOVE.


Leave, **********, The Peoples Republic of New Jersey, Massachusetts, New York in all of these places you can move and attempt to rob people who have been disarmed by their govt.


Leave Goodbye your probably criminals so GET OUT!

benEzra
January 13, 2006, 09:18 AM
nce again I will say, I know why he got shot!! I said I would've done the same thing being in the homeowners shoes. What he did was wrong. But, the way everything happened, there is more........
People are missing that! People tend to take things into their own hands. Even when they shouldn't you tend to think unrationably in situations that can be very stressful. Not justifying. But humans are far from perfect.
The thing I am getting at is people are running him in the ground. Not even knowing the person he was. Before this situation. Saying things that arn't true of him. That he cannot defend.
I have spoke with the brother they wern't looking for a house to rob that night. Just to clarify that as well.
And if there wasn't more why are the investigators trying to find the answer to what happened so bad. Why has everyone they have spoke with say IT WASN'T HIM...way out of character.
This could be an open and closed case, but it isn't yet.
To many loose ends....
Do keep us posted. I do sympathize with your loss.

joab
January 13, 2006, 09:45 AM
I had even stated that being in there shoes I would have done the same.

[QUOTE]Not denying he cut the power. He was an electrician. Graduated with honors from Decker Trade school of Construction. Not that the homeowners fabricated anything.. Why would he do that? he did what he did. Actions have consequences
If it were to come back and the drugs drove him crazy. That is something nobody can answer as to why he chose that. No excuse, Not to make it right, but hidden issues make people do bad things. But in there soul, they are good people. Just lead astray, easily influenced and burdened with issues beyond their scope.Darwin is a harsh taskmaster
But with certain things, it cannot be so. Maybe just around the wrong people. Wrong time. (not exactly speaking of the homeowners) I just wish the whole situation never happened for the people he invaded and our familyBut it did and wishing won't un do it
But, why also would the homeowner say "did ? send you here." IF everything was peachesI don't hardly even know what that means


What was the med discharge for?


I'm not sure you typically get an Honorable Medical discharge It's usually a General discharge IIRC

joab
January 13, 2006, 10:00 AM
Why would a good and honorable man bring his 17 year old brother into a dangerous life alterring situation where gun play was expected.
Why would a good an honorable man threaten the health and well being of an unborn child and expectant mother?

He was there to assault and possibly murder a family for personal gain ,he failed.

That's the big picture

Whether he was there to steal drugs or money or simply there to extract revenge for a deal gone bad or some imagined slight does not matter.

He may have been a good person that patted puppies and was good to his mother prior to that and may have turned his life around after the fact and written some childrens book, but at the moment of his death but at the moment of his death he deserved to die

What was his CCW permit number ?

mdavid
January 13, 2006, 11:13 AM
1. you are probably a liar and not this persons cousin
2. if you are related then you should apologize for your cousins behavior
3. if you enter anyones house whether you know them or not in the middle of the night you stand a high probability that bad things will happen

ANYONE sneaking into my house will be met violently because I value my familes lives beyond anything, as do most on this board.

DunedinDragon
January 13, 2006, 12:08 PM
After reading through all of this I'm still a bit confused as to what Everafter hopes to accomplish here. From what I can tell she wants everyone to understand there was more to this guy and more to this situation than what has been reported, and to reserve judgement until all the facts come out.

Fine...I have no problem reserving judgement about whether or not the shooter is a good or bad person, or whether there were extenuating circumstances as to why they felt they needed to invade this home.

I'm not willing to reserve judgement the he is dead because he did something that we here in our great state of Florida see fit to say is a justifiable reason for being killed. Beyond that, there may be more facts, but it does not, and never will, change the fact that he, and he alone, made the personal decision to do something that ended his life. No matter how good a person was other than that, no matter what he felt his justifications were, that is a fact that will always remain and cannot be changed...short of them finding clear and undeniable evidence that the shooting was staged by the homeowner in some way...which appears to be pretty unlikely at this point.

When someone here says he "deserved" to die, given the facts as they exist at this point, that is absolutely TRUE. If you drive over the speed limit, you deserve a speeding ticket. If you steal from a store you deserve to be arrested for shoplifting. If you enter someone else's house uninvited and any reasonalbe person in that same circumstance would perceive you to be a deadly threat, you deserve to be shot..no questions asked...at least in Florida.

brittany19
January 13, 2006, 01:47 PM
listen i have'nt dissapeared i have a job and two kids i have to take care ofi'm not up at all hours of the night.


and for the wife the people on this web site just dont want to see the other side of this story. i'm so sorry you had to hear about this .most of the things people have said i'm shure it really hurts you as it does me .

as i said before i'm not shure what happened because i was'nt there
but something does'nt seem right even though i did'nt know him that well
i have known this family for 7 years, and everyone that i have met has been a wonderful person. all im saying is something does'nt feel right. in my heart i know something else happened.i don't have all the answers because i was'nt there. and i did'nt want to say anything that might upset the family.


you all can think what you want i don't think we will change that

again i'm sorry you had to find out about this(wife)

brittany19
January 13, 2006, 01:54 PM
i have tried the best i could to to make you all understand i don't think it matters what we say i'm open to answer any other q's but my commitment to this family comes first

brittany19
January 13, 2006, 02:06 PM
and i have said myself if someone came into my house i would'nt just sit there waiting for them to kill me.


i have youger brother and sister that live with me i would do anything to protect them. all they have is me and my husband

i think you all miss understand me i just think that there are more facts that arent uncovered yet.

everafter1313
January 13, 2006, 04:06 PM
Someone dosen't "deserve" to die, given the situation. Brought down, stopped, but even I myself wouldn't aim to just kill. Yes, everyone should pay the consequences for there actions. No doubt about that. But who is to make the call death is a punishment he deserved?

There was a drug test provided for the 17 year old and also, (by the hospital) no exterme drugs in his system either. (meth, coke, acid.....)

And for the big question why was he discharged medically, HONORABLY.
asthma. He failed to tell that detail going in b/c he wanted to serve his country, part time. reserves. It runs in his family and he had been getting better with it. But whenever extremely active, (running ect.) he couldn't breathe. Seen it with my own eyes.
With all he has done wrong, latley. I will not have that taken from him.

And what I am trying to accomplish here is...
To let people understand that there are two sides to every story and you cannot always believe what you hear.(news, law enforcement even our own government) What he did WAS wrong. But it dosen't change that who he was before all of this. People make WRONG calls. I know myself I have done things that I would change now. But am I a BAD person? No! And to those of you who haven't experienced a situation like this, (hosnetly hope you don't) it is very easy to sit and make harsh remarks. But, knowing myself your attitude would change if so.
And for those that have experienced such situations, thank you for understanding where I am comming from. And sending your thoughts and prayers.

craig
January 13, 2006, 04:56 PM
guess this proves that making a "mistake" can be fatal.

DunedinDragon
January 13, 2006, 06:24 PM
Someone dosen't "deserve" to die, given the situation. Brought down, stopped, but even I myself wouldn't aim to just kill. Yes, everyone should pay the consequences for there actions. No doubt about that. But who is to make the call death is a punishment he deserved?


I'll put it to you this way then, he deserved the reaction he got, and he got the reaction he could have reasonably expected to get given the circumstances.

The fact is, most people that own guns and have any real interest in them finds out pretty quickly from forums such as this, or just talking with other gun owners that in any self defense situation you SHOOT YOUR GUN TO KILL and YOU SHOOT MULTIPLE TIMES UNTIL THEY ARE NO LONGER A THREAT. If you shoot to maim you will probably be dead, because you will most likely miss and your opponent WILL be shooting to kill. That little fact is ground into our brains from day one...the same as it is ground into the brain of a Law Enforcement Officer...and that's why THEY don't shoot to maim...THEY shoot to kill if they are placed into a situation in which they have to use deadly force. It's as much a part of our training as gun owners as any other aspect of training with a gun. Ask any other gun owner who's serious about their guns and you will get the exact same answer.

It's absolutely NO secret and a well publicised fact in Florida as well as across the country that Florida recently passed a "no retreat" law. It's also no secret that Florida is a right-to-carry state and has a SIGNIFICANT number of gun owners. We even earned the title of the "Gunshine" state from our friends at the Brady Campaign. If one chooses to ignore these facts and takes the risk of breaking into a house in this state, they have chosen to take a gamble in a VERY high-stakes game. Therefore, they should be prepared for the consequences.

As cold as it may sound, that's how it is. Every time someone breaks into a house in Florida and is shot it provides one more clear message to those people that might consider doing such a thing in this state, and that serves to protect LOTS of homes where they don't even own a weapon.

Do I feel sorry for his families loss?...of course I do. But NOTHING he has done in the past, or the type of person he might have been excuses him from the actions he took and the reaction he got. HE WAS NOT THE VICTIM HERE...HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO VICTIMIZE SOMEONE ELSE. That crosses the line and in this state it's a pretty good bet where that's going to lead.

The fact is, the odds were against him from the moment he decided to do it given where it happened.

pax
January 13, 2006, 06:36 PM
Did this criminal deserve to die?

That's not the right question, but it's always the one people ask. Family members almost always say NO, their loved one didn't deserve to die. Self defense people then argue vehemently that some kinds of criminal behavior clearly deserve death. But both miss the real point.

No matter what you think about the death penalty, criminals don't get shot by good citizens simply because the criminals deserve to die. Criminals get shot because they successfully convince another person that someone is about to die, and the other person decides not to be the dead one.

Whether or not the criminal deserved to die is completely beside the point. The point is that the homeowner didn't deserve to die.

pax

joab
January 13, 2006, 07:32 PM
But who is to make the call death is a punishment he deserved?I'm thinking the guy he was there to kill would be a good guess
There was a drug test provided for the 17 year old and also, (by the hospital) no exterme drugs in his system either. But yet you have repeatedly stated that drugs were involved
He failed to tell that detail going in falsifying enlistment papers usually gets you a general discharge
What he did WAS wrong. But it dosen't change that who he was before all of this.Also doesn't change that Jody and Sabrina probably love each also and had future plans together that didn't include getting shot in the bedroom
I know myself I have done things that I would change now. But am I a BAD person? Nodepends did those wrong things include violent armed home invasions and attacks on pregnant women
And to those of you who haven't experienced a situation like this, (hosnetly hope you don't) it is very easy to sit and make harsh remarksMy harsh remarks come from having personal experience and the belief in people taking personal responsibility for their actions


Brittany
as i said before i'm not shure what happened because i was'nt there Here's a breakdown.
Two young men committed a criminal act on a young couple in their home ,one got shot by the home owner.
Everything else is emotionalisms

You have stated that you found this forum while searching for more info on the event, what search words did you use.
I have used several combinations and find no link to this site

What was his CCW permit number, not that it matters having a gun while in the commission of a crime is a felony by itself

Desertdog
January 13, 2006, 08:07 PM
in any self defense situation you SHOOT YOUR GUN TO KILL and YOU SHOOT MULTIPLE TIMES UNTIL THEY ARE NO LONGER A THREAT.
I will, in a way, disagree with this remark. I believe you do not necessarily shoot to kill, but you shoot to stop.

Where are the best places to hit to stop? Abdomen and chest, is the best areas to shoot for, because they are the areas easiest to hit.

The head does make a small target, which makes it harder to hit, but a head shot would stop them almost every time.

Also, shoot until all threat is removed.

In this case of a home invasion, the perps were stopped. One ran and the other did not survive.

I feel sorry for the perps families, but it was a bad choice made by the perps themselves which started it.

It would have been hard on all the families involved had the homeowers been killed, the perps caught and sent to prison.

everafter1313, I am sorry for your loss, but if it was your house being invaded I believe you should, and I hope would, do the same as the homeowner, if possible.

JohnKSa
January 13, 2006, 10:36 PM
WARNING! BEFORE reading farther, please read the disclaimer at the end of the post.

Someone dosen't "deserve" to die, given the situation.The law says they do--that if that is the outcome, the killer can not be held responsible. So does the Bible, if you consider that a higher authority.Brought down, stopped, but even I myself wouldn't aim to just kill.There is no responsible self defense expert in the country who recommends shooting to wound. Especially not in the dark against someone with a loaded gun. You shoot to stop the threat, and that means aiming at the center of mass and shooting until the threat has ended. Where would you shoot to stop that wouldn't kill? The answer is that it's not really possible when facing a person with a loaded firearm. Unless they obviously surrender, they are a threat as long as they are conscious.

Shooting to wound is a TERRIBLE idea and admitting you shot to wound can often remove your legal justification for using deadly force in the first place.

By the way, saying the dead man was present on the scene due for a drug deal is a terrible way to justify his presence in a way that maintains that he is an upstanding citizen.

beerslurpy
January 13, 2006, 10:44 PM
"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
My favorite passage of the bible. Even better than "sell your cloak and buy a sword."

Btw, the commandment is "thall shalt not murder" not "thall shalt not kill." The God referenced in the bible is definitely OK with killing as long as the right people get killed. Hence the commandments to kill the amalekites, to kill burglars or to kill people in self defense, fire and brimstone, etc.

Forgiving people is one thing. Letting them murder, rape or rob you is another thing. I think the bible even says something informative about not valuing your own life enough to defend it, and how the almighty generally disapproves of this.

Skofnung
January 13, 2006, 10:55 PM
If truthful they are, let this go. If not, ban the low trolls and Wenzelize them. Trolling when dealing with a subject like this is reprehensible.

The bottom line is that the dude was a grown man that made the mistake of his life. I don't mourn his death one whit.

I do mourn for his children however.

I hope all the innocents involved find peace and get on with their lives.

dmobrien2001
January 13, 2006, 11:05 PM
All I can say to the family is sorry for your loss.

trueblue1776
January 14, 2006, 12:25 AM
I personally wouldn't mourn for this criminal's children. Maybe they have a chance to be decent people now, unlike their dad.

gremlin_bros
January 14, 2006, 12:36 AM
I personally wouldn't mourn for this criminal's children. Maybe they have a chance to be decent people now, unlike their dad.
i have to differ on this statement. i do morn for the children they have lost a parential influence in thier lives. one that could have been a good influence if he had chosen to be so. but he made a very poor decision that got him killed. i can only hope they learn from his mistake and do not follow in daddys footsteps. but because he isnot there to tell them it is wrong perhaps thier mother will be able to impress this lesson upon them. lets face it one day they will ask what happened to daddy and she will have to answer it. lets only pray she can make them understand that the reason daddy isnt there is because he made some verry bad choices that got him killed. leaving them and thier mother alone in the world.

Stand_Watie
January 14, 2006, 03:40 AM
My favorite passage of the bible. Even better than "sell your cloak and buy a sword."

Btw, the commandment is "thall shalt not murder" not "thall shalt not kill." The God referenced in the bible is definitely OK with killing as long as the right people get killed. Hence the commandments to kill the amalekites, to kill burglars or to kill people in self defense, fire and brimstone, etc.

Forgiving people is one thing. Letting them murder, rape or rob you is another thing. I think the bible even says something informative about not valuing your own life enough to defend it, and how the almighty generally disapproves of this.

You are as accurate in your statement 'Btw, the commandment is "thall shalt not murder" not "thall shalt not kill."' as it is possible to be with the English language. The reason that the translation was confusing in the first place was that the Aramaic word was something of a cross between what we would consider first degree murder and 2nd degree murder, it prohibits killing by intentional murder or by violent accidental killing without the intent to kill. King James era scholars though, only considered "murder" to be murder if it were intentional, and so used a broader term with the belief that people reading the text would be well educated enough to understand that they weren't referring to killing anything or anyone in any situation. Most modern texts use "murder" and have a footnote with a reference to the specific Aramaic term.

beerslurpy
January 14, 2006, 03:47 AM
You are as accurate in your statement 'Btw, the commandment is "thall shalt not murder" not "thall shalt not kill."' as it is possible to be with the English language. The reason that the translation was confusing in the first place was that the Aramaic word was something of a cross between what we would consider first degree murder and 2nd degree murder, it prohibits killing by intentional murder or by violent accidental killing without the intent to kill. King James era scholars though, only considered "murder" to be murder if it were intentional, and so used a broader term with the belief that people reading the text would be well educated enough to understand that they weren't referring to killing anything or anyone in any situation. Most modern texts use "murder" and have a footnote with a reference to the specific Aramaic term.

Actually, the ten commandments were written in biblical hebrew, as was the book of Exodus itself.

No one recognizable as Aramaeans lived in Aram at the time Exodus was originally written. Aram = 1200BC, Exodus = 1400-1250 BC depending upon when the pharaohs lived.

I could be mistaken about this, but I think Aramaeic is a New Testament thing.

The internet is awesome for appearing knowledgable about the bible.

joab
January 14, 2006, 03:55 AM
The internet is awesome for appearing knowledgable about the bible.Y'all fooled me

Alex45ACP
January 14, 2006, 04:56 AM
Drugs were involved

WHAT A SURPRISE!

:rolleyes:

Stand_Watie
January 14, 2006, 05:18 AM
Actually, the ten commandments were written in biblical hebrew, as was the book of Exodus itself.

No one recognizable as Aramaeans lived in Aram at the time Exodus was originally written. Aram = 1200BC, Exodus = 1400-1250 BC depending upon when the pharaohs lived.

I could be mistaken about this, but I think Aramaeic is a New Testament thing.

The internet is awesome for appearing knowledgable about the bible.

I'm pretty sure the New Testament was Greek. You're correct about Exodus. I had transposed in my head whether the OT was primarily Hebrew with portions in Aramaic or the obverse. Hebrew it is - you can look up a good Hebrew translation here if you read Hebrew, or install a language pak if you don't.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

gremlin_bros
January 14, 2006, 05:29 AM
I'm pretty sure the New Testament was Greek. You're correct about Exodus. I had transposed in my head whether the OT was primarily Hebrew with portions in Aramaic or the obverse. Hebrew it is - you can look up a good Hebrew translation here if you read Hebrew, or install a language pak if you don't.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm
you may be wrong about that one on the new testament it was aramaic and couldnt be translated till the roseta stone was found. the roseta stone was the same anouncment in three languages one of whitch was greek, the other were aramaic and latin i beleve though i am no scoler in this aera by any strech of the imagination. but i did see the a&e presentation of the roseta stone.

beerslurpy
January 14, 2006, 06:03 AM
Aramaeic is used in a few areas of the old testament, but most of that is ancient biblical hebrew.

The christian bible was not actually produced in what could be considered an authoratative form for several hundred years. Remember there were many gospels and a number of alternative and mystical christian sects that flourished before the 4th century. The new testament was produced entirely in greek, but many of the documents use to assemble it may have earlier been written in aramaeic.

It helps to remember that christianity is basically a roman religion, not a jewish religion. Thats why you get all the pagan holidays (saturnalia, spring solstice, etc) and all the pagan traditions. Not to mention the idol worship (oh sorry, I meant relics), the polytheism (praying to saints?), etc. And most of the 600+ commandments of the old testament are ignored. They basically borrowed what they liked from judaism and incorporated all the preexisting stuff into the christ mythology.

dmobrien2001
January 14, 2006, 09:57 AM
you may be wrong about that one on the new testament it was aramaic and couldnt be translated till the roseta stone was found. the roseta stone was the same anouncment in three languages one of whitch was greek, the other were aramaic and latin i beleve though i am no scoler in this aera by any strech of the imagination. but i did see the a&e presentation of the roseta stone.

Then you must not have paid much attention. The Rosetta Stone only has Greek and two kinds of Egyptian, not Aramaic.

http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/writing/rosetta.html

What is the Rosetta Stone?

The Rosetta Stone is a stone with writing on it in two languages (Egyptian and Greek), using three scripts (hieroglyphic, demotic and Greek).

Why is it in three different scripts?

The Rosetta Stone is written in three scripts because when it was written, there were three scripts being used in Egypt.

The first was hieroglyphic which was the script used for important or religious documents.

Detail of hieroglyphic and demotic script on the Rosetta Stone
Detail of hieroglyphic and demotic script on the Rosetta Stone

The second was demotic which was the common script of Egypt.

The third was Greek which was the language of the rulers of Egypt at that time.

The Rosetta Stone was written in all three scripts so that the priests, government officials and rulers of Egypt could read what it said.

Stand_Watie
January 14, 2006, 10:59 AM
...It helps to remember that christianity is ..

Rather than getting so far off topic that I get the thread closed, I'll refer you to

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/viewtopic.php?id=1666&p=1

pax
January 14, 2006, 12:51 PM
Too late.

Closed for thread veer. Folks, we don't discuss religion on THR.

pax

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