[rock jock]

I have seen this many times before but never understood the benefits of this particular stance, i.e., with the buttstock on top of, rather than in, the shoulder. I am assuming it is primarily for CQB, yes? What benefits does it offer? How can one control recoil when the rifle will jump past your shoulder when fired? How well can it be controlled in FA? Is it necessary to have the forward vertical grip to shoot like this? Who teaches this? Am I behind the times for not using this in 3-gun matches?

[Andrew Wyatt]

that's because the m16A2 stock is egregiously long, especially for use offhand ans with body armor. the poor guy probably has to do that just to look through the scope.

[Hkmp5sd]

He's using his shoulder to support some of the weight of his rifle and arms.

[asdaf]

I have been wondering about that stance myself. I saw some photos of Israeli soldiers using the same technique a few years ago so it seems to be something that is fairly widespread. I have no idea what the advantage would be though.

[SIGarmed]

Thats most likely a personal thing. The shooter may feel comfortable that way having to engage targets at close range judging by the picture. I guess you might call it instinctive.

[mons meg]

Notice the forward grip on that particular "hacked up" A2. WIth the forward grip, maybe you can retain better control? Also has what looks like an ACOG on there. Not your standard Marine, I am thinking.

[DMK]

He looks pretty relaxed and has his finger off the trigger. Are you guys sure he's not just using the scope to get a better look at something off the side of the bridge?

[Destructo6]

Isn't that one of the Marines' new M16A4s, rather than a "hacked up" A2?

[ajacobs]

My first thought was that that was an spr but it is not. It appears to have a knights rail on it. I have no idea why he is holding it like that. I don't think the LOP is to long. Infact from the a1 to the a2 they wanted to make it a whole inch longer but the existing rifle racks would only accomidate up to 5/8 inch longer so that is all the longer they made it.

[TarpleyG]

I never learnt that but with kevlar on the stock coulda been 2-3" shorter and I wouldn't have minded at all.

GT

[ajacobs]

I agree with you. Kevlar was not in wide circulation when they wanted the length increased. I just find it funny that the limiting factor was having to get new rifle racks.

[firestar]

I have seen a LOT of solders and even some police/swat guys useing this hold, I want to know if they teach this or if it is just something people do.

[cookhj]

it's a technique that's taught called "short-stocking." it's mostly used for CQB, but it can also be used in a situation like in the picture where the POQ is right in front of the marine and quick reaction might be necessary.

[Badger Arms]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=214691

[Night20]

Could ya'll take a glance at this one too? Is this taught? It kind of looks like the soldier is craddling the stock with his elbow.

[Nightcrawler]

Night20, I think he's just doing that so his muzzle doesn't protrude around the corner. Maybe he has a dot sight mounted and can aim that way, I dunno. Why he just doesn't step back a step or so I don't know, but I wasn't there.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Well, back when i had a bushy AR with an acog on it, I ended up "short stocking" it an awful lot to get my head far enough forward to get a good view through the scope.


I think the AR series needs about a 12 inch LOP for compatability with kevlar and people with less than ape arms.

[Nightcrawler]

I do have to agree on something though. I much prefer our M16A1s that we still carry in the Guards to M16A2s, in terms of how they feel. I prefer the shorter A1 stock, myself. A new M16, with a 20" light barrel, A1 length stock, A2 sights would be about my ideal for a 5.56mm rifle.

Huh. I think I just described the AR-180B, except for the sights. How 'bout that? :D

[rock jock]

Any more info? I have noticed it quite a bit.

[usp_fan]

If I remember right, over on the AR15.com forums several years ago, TWEAK explained the stock over shoulder method as being taught to marines for use in QCB to shorten the effective length of the weapon in tight quarters ie) ship passages. I recall him also talking about it's use in the urban training they recieve.

Not to use hollywood of as proof, but for a good view of this in a movie, watch the embassy marines clearing the hallways in the Bourne Identity.

usp_fan

[benewton]

I finally broke down an built up a pair of Oly lowers, essentially for fun, since I love my M1a, but, since I had access to an A2 upper...

Bottom line was that the A2 butt was way to long for me to shoot irons. Not being military, I bought the screw (thanks for the help, all) and a surplus A1 butt, and was back in business.

All of that for T-shirt firing in the summer, and I have to think that the A2 just wouldn't work for me with the flack jacket on.

True, I'm only 5'8" or so, but I thought the mouse gun was built for us "wee" people!

Actually, I like the A1 version better than the A2, but then, that could be old age setting in.

[beckrodgers]

Not trying to be sarcastic,Adapt & Overcome is not that bad an idea ,Thanks

[DougB]

I don't know if its relevant or not, but I first noticed this style/technique playing paintball. It seemed odd to me (still does) but a lot of paintball players use their "guns" like this. You keep your head and neck upright and raise the gun to your eye, rather than bending your neck and lowering your face to the stock. In paintball, most players don't really sight - they just point, shoot, watch where the paintballs are going, and make any necessary corrections. No need for a real consistent sight picture. Also, there's virtually no recoil.

Now I see soldiers and police using a similar technnique (at least on TV and in movies). Maybe having the stock againt the shoulder is just an outdated carryover from when military rifles had a lot more recoil and lower rate of fire. :) At least it may be quicker to point and shoot when pinpoint accuracy isn't required.

Doug

[SodaPop]

Bird watching?:confused:

[Swampy]

Guys,

This very subject has come up among Highpower shooters in the last few years....

Due to the low recoil of the round, those Highpower Service Rifle shooters using the AR15 were placing the buttstock up on the top of their shoulder to gain the highest head position when looking through the sights. This helps to give the most stable stance when shooting the standing position.

This gave the AR shooters and even bigger advantage over the guys still shooting .30's. It is possible to shoot a Garand or M1-A with the buttstock over the shoulder to gain the high head position, but by doing so you tend to end up with bloody lips, bruised cheeks, and a few loose teeth, not to mention having your shooting glasses pounded into the bridge of your nose by the rear sight. Not pretty.....

I think it was last year, maybe year before last, that the CMP and NRA ruled that when shooting the Standing position, a portion of the rear face of the buttstock had to be in contact with the shoulder..... Now the AR guys have to have the rear of the butt a wee bit lower down, just like the M1 & M1-A guys do....

I don't know where this rule is exactly in the NRA & CMP books.... Anyone who is more cognizant of this, please feel free to chime in.

Best to all,
Swampy

[rock jock]

Interesting, swampy. Whle I agree that the .223/5.56 round has low recoil, it is not non-existent, especially when using a post-ban without a MB.

[Swampy]

rock jock,

True...

But remember I was talking about Highpower Service Rifle shooters....

We are talking about a 14 to 16 pound AR here.... and guys who are in a 10 lb. shooting jacket, and twisted into the tightest and most stable position they can get into and still remain vertical with sights on target.

In this scenario an AR does not move much when it recoils, even with nothing behind the butt but air.....

Swampy

[JShirley]

I know Army types are taught "nose to charging handle". Hard to do with short arms and those damnably long LOPs, especially with BA.

[bad_dad_brad]

I have seen some amazing pictures in Gulf War II with our troops using the M16 and or several derivatives. I even saw a soldier with a hold over his head downward pointing an M4 into a trash bin.

That is the beauty of the M16. It really is a great weapons system. Very handy and versatile.

It was one of those things that struck me during Iraqi Freedom, the ever present image and sillouette of the M16. Someday, I think, an icon of freedom in the word will be the M16, in direct opposite of the icon of oppression that is the AK47.

[IrvJr]

I think that USP_Fan's got it right - I believe that the Marines are taught to hold the rifle that way for CQB. A couple of years ago I was watching some Marines from Albany, GA run through a MOUT facility/attack village at a military base. They held their (long) rifles like that as they rounded corners and entered and cleared the buildings within the attack village. I seems like it's faster to handle that way and less likely to get snagged.

[usmcmonty]

Yes it's taught in the Marines for CQB.

[rock jock]

OK, I can understand its advantage when LOP becomes cumbersome in full BDUs with Kevlar vest. The question is, why don't they just use collapsible stocks that can be adjusted mission-specific?