Some un-"Patriot" thoughts


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telomerase
January 1, 2006, 05:46 PM
from TJ Rodgers (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1229-35.htm)

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TallPine
January 1, 2006, 05:54 PM
would much rather live as a free man under the highly improbable threat of another significant Al-Qaida attack than I would as a serf, spied on by an oppressive government that can jail me secretly, without charges.
yep

Ledhead686
January 1, 2006, 06:02 PM
1984's just running a little behind schedule is all.

Now don't forget: It is absolutely essential that we let Big Bro gradually usurp our freedoms in order that we may sleep more soundly at night. :rolleyes: If it wasn't the current "the terrorists are gonna kill us all" fad sweeping the nation, Washington would come up with another pretense for domestic spying/surveillance, let's not kid ourselves.

Standing Wolf
January 1, 2006, 07:50 PM
If it wasn't the current "the terrorists are gonna kill us all" fad sweeping the nation, Washington would come up with another pretense for domestic spying/surveillance...

One pretext or a dozen others.

rick_reno
January 1, 2006, 07:54 PM
Think for a minute of where we'd be if we didn't have "leadership" that believed in freedom and liberty. ;) I can't count the number of times I've read Bush speeches where he ties recent statist legislation with the words "freedom" and "liberty".

Preacherman
January 1, 2006, 07:55 PM
For once, a loony-left Web site re-publishes an article I can agree with! :D

JerryM
January 1, 2006, 08:00 PM
yep

Those are not the only options. I believe the President is correct in what he is doing and the Patriot act is necessary.

It may sound good, but it does not have much logic connected with it. Lay out the real options, and then choose.
Jerry

RealGun
January 1, 2006, 08:10 PM
Those are not the only options. I believe the President is correct in what he is doing and the Patriot act is necessary.

It may sound good, but it does not have much logic connected with it. Lay out the real options, and then choose.
Jerry

How does one win this game? The President would have been severely criticized if he had done nothing. I believe that dramatic measures were expected of him and the Congress following 9/11. I have no doubt that measures taken have been somewhat effective. Lack of another incident in some years is pretty significant. I don't believe the Feds should be legally hamstrung in attempts to foil various plots. All I care about is accountability for abuse and the fact that whatever power is attained will probably be permanent, even a springboard for further advances of federal power. Sunset clauses matter.

Wllm. Legrand
January 1, 2006, 08:17 PM
Oh, I see.

That fellow who wrote that article is "unpatriotic"?

Well, I'd like to know just what the thread starter thinks is patriotic?

Maybe some other core "conservative beliefs", say, like kidnapping and torture by other persons to create a legal "out", maybe off-the-scale government spending the nation into oblivion; maybe expanding the role of government in nearly every aspect of our lives; maybe wars of convenience...

Are these things "patriotic"?

About as patriotic as the Enabling Acts or the invasion of Poland. Everyone thought THOSE things were "patriotic". Any "good German" could tell you.

Crosshair
January 1, 2006, 08:19 PM
I think the 2008 election is going to be interesting. Might decide what direction we take as a country.

Wllm. Legrand
January 1, 2006, 08:24 PM
I think the 2008 election is going to be interesting. Might decide what direction we take as a country.
Good point. However, let's not present a false dichotomy.

Democrat or Republican? That's not the real question.

This country is headed down the same path no matter what party holds dominance. The path to Statism, nationalism, and greater government control or financial responsibility, classical American values, and greater freedom from the heavy hand of government? THOSE are your choices...and I won't take any bets on the latter.

Old Dog
January 1, 2006, 08:30 PM
This country is headed down the same path no matter what party holds dominance. The path to Statism, nationalism, and greater government control or financial responsibility, classical American values, and greater freedom from the heavy hand of government?

Hey, thanks for summing it all up for us. We may as well all just forego visiting our polling places, since it won't matter anyway.

This must be one of those weeks on THR where all we see is people expressing their feelings of powerlessness.

IndianaDean
January 1, 2006, 08:49 PM
"I would much rather live as a free man under the highly improbable threat of another significant Al-Qaida attack than I would as a serf, spied on by an oppressive government that can jail me secretly, without charges. If the Patriot Act defines the term ``patriot,'' then I am certainly not one.

By far, our own government is a bigger threat to our freedom than any possible menace posed by Al-Qaida."

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.

Wllm. Legrand
January 1, 2006, 08:51 PM
Hey, thanks for summing it all up for us. We may as well all just forego visiting our polling places, since it won't matter anyway.

This must be one of those weeks on THR where all we see is people expressing their feelings of powerlessness.

Not for my own life (that's the one thing we really have power over), only the inertia of the FedGOD; two different things. And if you think your vote really, REALLY, makes a difference, you just don't understand statistics. The collective will do what the collective will do.
"The average age of the world's greatest civilzations has been approximately 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith
From spritual faith to great courage
From courage to liberty
From liberty to abundance
From abundance to complacency
From complacency to apathy
From apathy to dependence
From dependence back again into bondage.

Prof. Alexander Tyler, over 200 years ago while we were still British colonies.

Only a intellectual and spiritual revival, coupled with a monumental unheaval and revolution against the established bureaucracy will alter the inertia. And if so many gun-board people are so divorced from the classical beliefs that made the Founders great, what does that say about the general populace.

Ergo: Don't hold your breath.

Old Dog
January 1, 2006, 09:00 PM
And if you think your vote really, REALLY, makes a difference, you just don't understand statistics.Not so much my individual vote -- but my abilities, and my work, and the abilities of those to whom I share causes, will make the difference.

Prof. Alexander Tyler, over 200 years ago while we were still British colonies.Ah, yes, but life was much different then; life was shorter, uncertain and unequivocably much simpler. I greatly suspect that our technological advances, our advances in medicine and science, along with the ability citizens now have for instantaneous, real-time unfiltered communication with each other from almost anywhere on the globe has rendered the good Dr. Tyler's thesis invalid.

I am certainly onboard with the thought that there's a need for an intellectual and spiritual revival; upheaval, yes, revolution -- depends on one's definition of revolution ...

And if so many gun-board people are so divorced from the classical beliefs that made the Founders great, what does that say about the general populace.'Tis a sad, sad thing; I agree with you here.

308win
January 1, 2006, 09:29 PM
"I would much rather live as a free man under the highly improbable threat of another significant Al-Qaida attack than I would as a serf, spied on by an oppressive government that can jail me secretly, without charges. If the Patriot Act defines the term ``patriot,'' then I am certainly not one.

By far, our own government is a bigger threat to our freedom than any possible menace posed by Al-Qaida."

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.

+1

Herself
January 1, 2006, 09:38 PM
You said it, Dean!

xd9fan
January 1, 2006, 10:21 PM
1984's just running a little behind schedule is all.

Now don't forget: It is absolutely essential that we let Big Bro gradually usurp our freedoms in order that we may sleep more soundly at night. :rolleyes: If it wasn't the current "the terrorists are gonna kill us all" fad sweeping the nation, Washington would come up with another pretense for domestic spying/surveillance, let's not kid ourselves.


sad but true

ThreadKiller
January 1, 2006, 11:01 PM
Bush is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Still don't know what the Left has to offer other than criticism.

chas_martel
January 2, 2006, 01:22 AM
TJ is the man.

One of the few, only, to stand up to Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow coalition.

yy
January 2, 2006, 01:41 AM
+1 Old Dog.

[this is my first useless and pointless post, must be part of the powerlessness week :neener: ]

Zundfolge
January 2, 2006, 01:47 AM
would much rather live as a free man under the highly improbable threat of another significant Al-Qaida attack than I would as a serf, spied on by an oppressive government that can jail me secretly, without charges.

I hate when someone says something I could agree with has to resort to such faulty logic.

He's making a great leap in suggesting that another significant Al-Qaida attack is "highly improbable". This seems to be one of the annoying attitudes of the LP/ACLU types who oppose Bush and the WOT. The threat from Islamofacist terrorism is very real, I don't think its a good idea to pretend it is not when trying to convince the proles that a police state is not the best answer (ie: the threat of terrorism is a lie to get you to hand over control to the state).

While I agree that I would rather live free with the risk of suffering a terrorist attack than live as a surf, it doesn't serve his point to try to over downplay the real threat of terrorism (which I believe should be met by a heavily armed populace, but Washington ain't listenin' to me :banghead: ).

Nematocyst
January 2, 2006, 01:53 AM
:uhoh:

<Spies several politico leaning suspects in the posts above...Herself, Legrande, Old Dog, Rick Reno, Standing Wolf, Tall Pine, Real Gun... but then P'man is there, too, so all is not lost... ;) >

OMG, here's another thread. We're off and running again.

Mercy, mercy. Where will it end?
____

OK, let's see.

1) This must be one of those weeks on THR where all we see is people expressing their feelings of powerlessness. Oh, I feel so powerless. (OK, got that off my chest. Feel better now. Powerlessness only lasted 4.669... nsec.)

2) For once, a loony-left Web site re-publishes an article I can agree with! See! I been tellin' you guys: don't judge a book by its cover. Evaluate each argument on its own merit. There's always some common ground... or is that common dreams?

3) I can't count the number of times I've read Bush speeches where he ties recent statist legislation with the words "freedom" and "liberty". +1.

Old Dog
January 2, 2006, 01:53 AM
Zundfolge is a voice of reason.

yy
January 2, 2006, 01:56 AM
your observation (or quote) is the same realization that all things experience birth, sickness, old age, and death. But don't let the pessimists get you down. The pessimistic view would have you forego living because you (and all of us) are going to die anyways.

It's the process, the living, and the experience that counts in the final tally. Let's stay positive. Impermanence is a fact of life.

Now, you also expressed a doubt to voting. Again, the pessimistic view would have you forego voting because one single vote wont turn the tide. But the alternative is not having a voice at all. Besides, if individual power is what you seek, there's always political office.

IndianaDean
January 2, 2006, 02:52 AM
Well, I agree the threat of terrorism should be met by a heavily armed populace.

Camp David
January 2, 2006, 10:33 AM
...Still don't know what the Left has to offer other than criticism.Treason!

And it is time that a few of the left were locked up for their treason!

The Drew
January 2, 2006, 11:21 AM
Well, I agree the threat of terrorism should be met by a heavily armed populace.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't give the control to fedgov and it wouldn't give them an excuse for sweeping new police powers...

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